Re: Using furnace filters as whole house room air cleaners

February 5, 2007

,

In addition to a good furnace filter for whole house air cleaning, we

suggest a UVGI product be installed as well. The McGill University

study, which was a double blind multiple crossover trial proved that

microbial and endotoxin concentrations on irradiated surfaces within

the ventilation system were reduced by 99%.

Respectfully,

Pam Young

GP Air Restoration of

Medallion Healthy Homes

>

> I was searching for something else when I came

> across this article that might interest some on this list:

>

> Using Furnace Filters as Whole House Room Air Cleaners

>

> Ker-Ching (K.C.) Hsieh, Ph.D., Particle Tech, Inc. St. , MN

>

> There have been significant improvements on 1 "

> furnace type filters over the last ten years. The

> fiberglass furnace filter was originally designed

> to keep the house ventilation system clean from

> large particles and debris. Since most of the

> house furnace blowers are not designed to operate

> in high static pressure environment, the

> fiberglass furnace filter can share only a

> limited amount of pressure drop. The 1 "

> fiberglass furnace filter with low-pressure drop

> and low cost naturally became the most common choice.

>

> Two things have changed. First, is the better

> design of the filters by adopting pleated

> structure to reduce the media velocity. Lower

> media velocity typically leads to higher filter

> efficiency and lower pressure drop. Secondly, the

> variety of specialty media (e.g., tribo-charged

> media, split fibers, large effective fiber

> diameter (EFD) melt-blown electret…), which have

> significant higher initial efficiencies with

> relatively low pressure drops have been introduced for this

application.

>

> The enhanced performance of some of the pleated

> type furnace filters has elevated the traditional

> role of 1 " fiberglass furnace filters from

> protecting the residential ventilation system to

> improving the indoor air quality (IAQ) in a

> residential environment1. Pleated type furnace

> filters, when selected and used properly, can

> potentially reduce the indoor air pollutants

> significantly and the advantages are multifold.

> For example, for allergy sufferers, houses

> installed with specialty pleated type media

> furnace filters can potentially alleviate the

> symptoms of sneezing, watering eyes, itching

> throat, postnasal drip, coughing etc. during the

> pollen season. The reduction of indoor air

> particle concentration by pleated type furnace

> filters can also slow down the settling of dust

> and respirable particles2 inside the house.

>

> http://www.nafahq.org/Articles/Article002.htm

>

February 5, 2007

Pam

Every single installation of UV systems in houses in our area that I have seen was defective or ineffective, for the following reasons:

1) they produced noticeable amounts of ozone (I could often hear the sparking/arcing);

2) they leaked UV light into the residence at duct joints and added holes in the ducting;

3) they had very short paths where the dust in the air was exposed to the light; and,

4) they were not maintained at all.

I believe that all of these are a problem, but some of my clients were really troubled by the ozone. If the transit time is too low, do not expect much effect from the UV. The short duct lengths that we usually see in most housing is insufficient for adequate exposure of the dust in the air so it is highly unlikely that they will ever work

They are pushed very hard by the local installers; the mark-up is huge as far as I can tell.

Jim H. White SSC

Re: Using furnace filters as whole house room air cleaners

,In addition to a good furnace filter for whole house air cleaning, we suggest a UVGI product be installed as well. The McGill University study, which was a double blind multiple crossover trial proved that microbial and endotoxin concentrations on irradiated surfaces within the ventilation system were reduced by 99%.Respectfully,Pam YoungGP Air Restoration ofMedallion Healthy Homes>> I was searching for something else when I came > across this article that might interest some on this list:> > Using Furnace Filters as Whole House Room Air Cleaners> > Ker-Ching (K.C.) Hsieh, Ph.D., Particle Tech, Inc. St. , MN> > There have been significant improvements on 1" > furnace type filters over the last ten years. The > fiberglass furnace filter was originally designed > to keep the house ventilation system clean from > large particles and debris. Since most of the > house furnace blowers are not designed to operate > in high static pressure environment, the > fiberglass furnace filter can share only a > limited amount of pressure drop. The 1" > fiberglass furnace filter with low-pressure drop > and low cost naturally became the most common choice.> > Two things have changed. First, is the better > design of the filters by adopting pleated > structure to reduce the media velocity. Lower > media velocity typically leads to higher filter > efficiency and lower pressure drop. Secondly, the > variety of specialty media (e.g., tribo-charged > media, split fibers, large effective fiber > diameter (EFD) melt-blown electret…), which have > significant higher initial efficiencies with > relatively low pressure drops have been introduced for this application.> > The enhanced performance of some of the pleated > type furnace filters has elevated the traditional > role of 1" fiberglass furnace filters from > protecting the residential ventilation system to > improving the indoor air quality (IAQ) in a > residential environment1. Pleated type furnace > filters, when selected and used properly, can > potentially reduce the indoor air pollutants > significantly and the advantages are multifold. > For example, for allergy sufferers, houses > installed with specialty pleated type media > furnace filters can potentially alleviate the > symptoms of sneezing, watering eyes, itching > throat, postnasal drip, coughing etc. during the > pollen season. The reduction of indoor air > particle concentration by pleated type furnace > filters can also slow down the settling of dust > and respirable particles2 inside the house.> > http://www.nafahq.org/Articles/Article002.htm>

February 5, 2007

Pam Young:

You stated:

" irradiated surfaces within the ventilation system were reduced by 99%. "

Q: Which surfaces?

Generally only the ones in close proximity (eg, the filter)?

Q: What does this do overall to occupied spaces?

I would contend very little because the residence time is too low leading to

a low reduction rate compared too source rates.

Tony

.......................................................................

" Tony " Havics, CHMM, CIH, PE

pH2, LLC

5250 E US 36, Suite 830

Avon, IN 46123

off

fax

cell

90% of Risk Management is knowing where to place the decimal point...any

consultant can give you the other 10%(SM)

This message is from pH2. This message and any attachments may contain

legally privileged or confidential information, and are intended only for

the individual or entity identified above as the addressee. If you are not

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the sender, which are not to be attributed to pH2 and may not be copied or

distributed without this statement.

Re: Using furnace filters as whole house room air

cleaners

,

In addition to a good furnace filter for whole house air cleaning, we

suggest a UVGI product be installed as well. The McGill University

study, which was a double blind multiple crossover trial proved that

microbial and endotoxin concentrations on irradiated surfaces within

the ventilation system were reduced by 99%.

Respectfully,

Pam Young

GP Air Restoration of

Medallion Healthy Homes

>

> I was searching for something else when I came

> across this article that might interest some on this list:

>

> Using Furnace Filters as Whole House Room Air Cleaners

>

> Ker-Ching (K.C.) Hsieh, Ph.D., Particle Tech, Inc. St. , MN

>

> There have been significant improvements on 1 "

> furnace type filters over the last ten years. The

> fiberglass furnace filter was originally designed

> to keep the house ventilation system clean from

> large particles and debris. Since most of the

> house furnace blowers are not designed to operate

> in high static pressure environment, the

> fiberglass furnace filter can share only a

> limited amount of pressure drop. The 1 "

> fiberglass furnace filter with low-pressure drop

> and low cost naturally became the most common choice.

>

> Two things have changed. First, is the better

> design of the filters by adopting pleated

> structure to reduce the media velocity. Lower

> media velocity typically leads to higher filter

> efficiency and lower pressure drop. Secondly, the

> variety of specialty media (e.g., tribo-charged

> media, split fibers, large effective fiber

> diameter (EFD) melt-blown electret.), which have

> significant higher initial efficiencies with

> relatively low pressure drops have been introduced for this

application.

>

> The enhanced performance of some of the pleated

> type furnace filters has elevated the traditional

> role of 1 " fiberglass furnace filters from

> protecting the residential ventilation system to

> improving the indoor air quality (IAQ) in a

> residential environment1. Pleated type furnace

> filters, when selected and used properly, can

> potentially reduce the indoor air pollutants

> significantly and the advantages are multifold.

> For example, for allergy sufferers, houses

> installed with specialty pleated type media

> furnace filters can potentially alleviate the

> symptoms of sneezing, watering eyes, itching

> throat, postnasal drip, coughing etc. during the

> pollen season. The reduction of indoor air

> particle concentration by pleated type furnace

> filters can also slow down the settling of dust

> and respirable particles2 inside the house.

>

> http://www.nafahq.org/Articles/Article002.htm

>

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February 5, 2007

et al,

CMHC did some work on the removal of

airborne particulate matter with the use of better furnace filters. Here

is a summary of some of that work: http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/publications/en/rh-pr/tech/99-108_e.pdf

Basically, it can be done but it is

probably not warranted for most residential applications. First off, you

have to have the furnace fan running continuously for it to be effective

at all. The electricity cost for that is in the order of $200-$500 per

year, depending upon the utility charges in your area. Then there is the

additional costs of filters and their replacement. The CMHC study found

that particle concentrations were reduced by a maximum of about 30% in

the house with a good filter, when the occupants are up and moving around.

If we had used personal exposure monitors, this reduction would likely

be even less. People and their activities create particles. A furnace filter

will not reduce that immediate and close exposure. The furnace filters

were far more effective at reducing concentrations during periods of sleep

or occupant absence, when particle counts were generally quite low in our

study.

I have not seen credible research yet

that shows UV is suitable for improving residential IAQ. Both for particles

and biological pollutants, source reduction always seems more practical.

Don Fugler

CMHC Policy and Research

February 5, 2007

Pam,

Unless a home owner has used Merv rated air filters from the onset, they will have dust accumulating on the fiberglass interior surface of the supply air plenum (that's the fiberglass box above the air handler.)

The supply plenum always gets quite a bit of moisture from the AC coils and when the dust inside the plenum gets moist it will become a source of mold growth. If people are getting sick from their AC ... it will most likely be contaminated plenums (supply or return.) UV lights do not fix this problem.

Contaminated plenums are easy and inexpensive to replace with new. Very few consultants will cut open the AC supply or return air plenums to inspect them. Consultants are not provided training on this in IAQA or other courses. And they are not taught how to properly seal the fiberglass back up again if they open it.

In my experience with people sick from mold problems many if not most are sick due to contaminated AC plenums or other AC related problems.

I have never seen a protocol from a consultant that deals with the issue of hidden mold growth inside AC plenums. Consultants seem to be fixated on writing specs to remove moldy drywall or sanding moldy wood. But the forget about the AC. It is sort of weird to me.

Rosen

www.Mold-Books.com

To: iequality Sent: Monday, February 5, 2007 3:12:52 PMSubject: Re: Re: Using furnace filters as whole house room air cleaners

Pam

Every single installation of UV systems in houses in our area that I have seen was defective or ineffective, for the following reasons:

1) they produced noticeable amounts of ozone (I could often hear the sparking/arcing) ;

2) they leaked UV light into the residence at duct joints and added holes in the ducting;

3) they had very short paths where the dust in the air was exposed to the light; and,

4) they were not maintained at all.

I believe that all of these are a problem, but some of my clients were really troubled by the ozone. If the transit time is too low, do not expect much effect from the UV. The short duct lengths that we usually see in most housing is insufficient for adequate exposure of the dust in the air so it is highly unlikely that they will ever work

They are pushed very hard by the local installers; the mark-up is huge as far as I can tell.

Jim H. White SSC

Re: Using furnace filters as whole house room air cleaners

,In addition to a good furnace filter for whole house air cleaning, we suggest a UVGI product be installed as well. The McGill University study, which was a double blind multiple crossover trial proved that microbial and endotoxin concentrations on irradiated surfaces within the ventilation system were reduced by 99%.Respectfully,Pam YoungGP Air Restoration ofMedallion Healthy Homes>> I was searching for something else when I came > across this article that might interest some on this list:> > Using Furnace Filters as Whole House Room Air Cleaners> > Ker-Ching (K.C.) Hsieh, Ph.D., Particle Tech, Inc. St. , MN> > There have been significant improvements on 1" > furnace type filters over the

last ten years. The > fiberglass furnace filter was originally designed > to keep the house ventilation system clean from > large particles and debris. Since most of the > house furnace blowers are not designed to operate > in high static pressure environment, the > fiberglass furnace filter can share only a > limited amount of pressure drop. The 1" > fiberglass furnace filter with low-pressure drop > and low cost naturally became the most common choice.> > Two things have changed. First, is the better > design of the filters by adopting pleated > structure to reduce the media velocity. Lower > media velocity typically leads to higher filter > efficiency and lower pressure drop. Secondly, the > variety of specialty media (e.g., tribo-charged > media, split fibers, large effective fiber > diameter (EFD) melt-blown electret…), which have >

significant higher initial efficiencies with > relatively low pressure drops have been introduced for this application.> > The enhanced performance of some of the pleated > type furnace filters has elevated the traditional > role of 1" fiberglass furnace filters from > protecting the residential ventilation system to > improving the indoor air quality (IAQ) in a > residential environment1. Pleated type furnace > filters, when selected and used properly, can > potentially reduce the indoor air pollutants > significantly and the advantages are multifold. > For example, for allergy sufferers, houses > installed with specialty pleated type media > furnace filters can potentially alleviate the > symptoms of sneezing, watering eyes, itching > throat, postnasal drip, coughing etc. during the > pollen season. The reduction of indoor air > particle

concentration by pleated type furnace > filters can also slow down the settling of dust > and respirable particles2 inside the house.> > http://www.nafahq. org/Articles/ Article002. htm>

Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.

February 5, 2007

I really hate to give you some credit Mr. Rosen,

but on :

I have never seen a

protocol from a consultant that deals with the issue of hidden mold growth

inside AC plenums. Consultants seem to be fixated on writing specs to remove

moldy drywall or sanding moldy wood. But the forget about the AC. It

is sort of weird to me.

You bring up a good point. I did two

mold issues in FG duct in FL, and a duct issue (you could walk inside the duct)

here in Indiana.

All had >1,000,000 CFU/g in the duct.

I have seen similar, but not as bad, FG

duct in TX about 5 years ago.

I am not the only one. Dr. Phil

Morey did a good piece on this back about 1990 for ASTM.

It will depend on several factors but

should be investigated.

Tony

.......................................................................

" Tony " Havics,

CHMM, CIH, PE

pH2, LLC

5250 E US

36, Suite 830

Avon, IN

46123

off

fax

cell

90% of Risk Management is knowing where to

place the decimal point...any consultant can give you the other 10%(SM)

This message is from pH2. This message and

any attachments may contain legally privileged or confidential information, and

are intended only for the individual or entity identified above as the

addressee. If you are not the addressee, or if this message has been addressed

to you in error, you are not authorized to read, copy, or distribute this

message and any attachments, and we ask that you please delete this message and

attachments (including all copies) and notify the sender by return e-mail or by

phone at . Delivery of this message and any attachments to any

person other than the intended recipient(s) is not intended in any way to waive

confidentiality or a privilege. All personal messages express views only of the

sender, which are not to be attributed to pH2 and may not be copied or

distributed without this statement.

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of gary rosen

Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007

4:27 PM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: Re: Using

furnace filters as whole house room air cleaners

Pam,

Unless a home owner has used Merv rated air filters from the

onset, they will have dust accumulating on the fiberglass interior surface of

the supply air plenum (that's the fiberglass box above the air handler.)

The supply plenum always gets

quite a bit of moisture from the AC coils and when the dust inside the

plenum gets moist it will become a source of mold growth. If people are

getting sick from their AC ... it will most likely be contaminated plenums

(supply or return.) UV lights do not fix this problem.

Contaminated plenums are easy and inexpensive to replace with

new. Very few consultants will cut open the AC supply or return air

plenums to inspect them. Consultants are not provided training on

this in IAQA or other courses. And they are not taught how to properly

seal the fiberglass back up again if they open it.

In my experience with people sick from mold problems many if not most

are sick due to contaminated AC plenums or other AC related problems.

I have never seen a

protocol from a consultant that deals with the issue of hidden mold growth

inside AC plenums. Consultants seem to be fixated on writing specs to remove

moldy drywall or sanding moldy wood. But the forget about the AC.

It is sort of weird to me.

Rosen

www.Mold-Books.com

From: Jim H. White

To: iequality

Sent: Monday, February 5, 2007 3:12:52 PM

Subject: Re: Re: Using furnace filters as whole house room air

cleaners

Pam

Every single installation of UV systems in houses in our

area that I have seen was defective or ineffective, for the following reasons:

1) they produced noticeable amounts of

ozone (I could often hear the sparking/arcing) ;

2) they leaked UV light into the residence

at duct joints and added holes in the ducting;

3) they had very short paths where the

dust in the air was exposed to the light; and,

4) they were not maintained at all.

I believe that all of these are a problem, but some of my

clients were really troubled by the ozone. If the transit time is too low, do

not expect much effect from the UV. The short duct lengths that we usually see

in most housing is insufficient for adequate exposure of the dust in the air so

it is highly unlikely that they will ever work

They are pushed very hard by the local installers; the

mark-up is huge as far as I can tell.

Jim H. White SSC

Re:

Using furnace filters as whole house room air cleaners

,

In addition to a good furnace filter for whole house air cleaning, we

suggest a UVGI product be installed as well. The McGill University

study, which was a double blind multiple crossover trial proved that

microbial and endotoxin concentrations on irradiated surfaces within

the ventilation system were reduced by 99%.

Respectfully,

Pam Young

GP Air Restoration of

Medallion Healthy Homes

>

> I was searching for something else when I came

> across this article that might interest some on this list:

>

> Using Furnace Filters as Whole House Room Air Cleaners

>

> Ker-Ching (K.C.) Hsieh, Ph.D., Particle Tech, Inc. St. , MN

>

> There have been significant improvements on 1 "

> furnace type filters over the last ten years. The

> fiberglass furnace filter was originally designed

> to keep the house ventilation system clean from

> large particles and debris. Since most of the

> house furnace blowers are not designed to operate

> in high static pressure environment, the

> fiberglass furnace filter can share only a

> limited amount of pressure drop. The 1 "

> fiberglass furnace filter with low-pressure drop

> and low cost naturally became the most common choice.

>

> Two things have changed. First, is the better

> design of the filters by adopting pleated

> structure to reduce the media velocity. Lower

> media velocity typically leads to higher filter

> efficiency and lower pressure drop. Secondly, the

> variety of specialty media (e.g., tribo-charged

> media, split fibers, large effective fiber

> diameter (EFD) melt-blown electret…), which have

> significant higher initial efficiencies with

> relatively low pressure drops have been introduced for this

application.

>

> The enhanced performance of some of the pleated

> type furnace filters has elevated the traditional

> role of 1 " fiberglass furnace filters from

> protecting the residential ventilation system to

> improving the indoor air quality (IAQ) in a

> residential environment1. Pleated type furnace

> filters, when selected and used properly, can

> potentially reduce the indoor air pollutants

> significantly and the advantages are multifold.

> For example, for allergy sufferers, houses

> installed with specialty pleated type media

> furnace filters can potentially alleviate the

> symptoms of sneezing, watering eyes, itching

> throat, postnasal drip, coughing etc. during the

> pollen season. The reduction of indoor air

> particle concentration by pleated type furnace

> filters can also slow down the settling of dust

> and respirable particles2 inside the house.

>

> http://www.nafahq.

org/Articles/ Article002. htm

>

Everyone is raving about the

all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.

February 5, 2007

,

You are right about the IAQA consultants

not being familiar, although it is not true with all IEP’s. There are

some on this list who are familiar with this condition (myself as one). I know

there are others here as well. Also, when you use the word “NEVER”

I am not sure I believe it due to your last “never” seeing fine

cleaning in IEP reports. Every report I have ever seen (even the least experienced)

had fine cleaning.

Bob/Ma.

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of gary rosen

Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007

4:27 PM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: Re: Using

furnace filters as whole house room air cleaners

Pam,

Unless a home owner has used Merv rated air filters from the

onset, they will have dust accumulating on the fiberglass interior surface of

the supply air plenum (that's the fiberglass box above the air handler.)

The supply plenum always gets

quite a bit of moisture from the AC coils and when the dust inside the

plenum gets moist it will become a source of mold growth. If people are

getting sick from their AC ... it will most likely be contaminated plenums

(supply or return.) UV lights do not fix this problem.

Contaminated plenums are easy and inexpensive to replace with

new. Very few consultants will cut open the AC supply or return air

plenums to inspect them. Consultants are not provided training on

this in IAQA or other courses. And they are not taught how to properly

seal the fiberglass back up again if they open it.

In my experience with people sick from mold problems many if not most

are sick due to contaminated AC plenums or other AC related problems.

I have never seen a

protocol from a consultant that deals with the issue of hidden mold growth

inside AC plenums. Consultants seem to be fixated on writing specs to remove

moldy drywall or sanding moldy wood. But the forget about the AC.

It is sort of weird to me.

Rosen

www.Mold-Books.com

From: Jim H. White

To: iequality

Sent: Monday, February 5, 2007 3:12:52 PM

Subject: Re: Re: Using furnace filters as whole house room air

cleaners

Pam

Every single installation of UV systems in houses in our

area that I have seen was defective or ineffective, for the following reasons:

1) they produced noticeable amounts of

ozone (I could often hear the sparking/arcing) ;

2) they leaked UV light into the residence

at duct joints and added holes in the ducting;

3) they had very short paths where the

dust in the air was exposed to the light; and,

4) they were not maintained at all.

I believe that all of these are a problem, but some of my

clients were really troubled by the ozone. If the transit time is too low, do

not expect much effect from the UV. The short duct lengths that we usually see

in most housing is insufficient for adequate exposure of the dust in the air so

it is highly unlikely that they will ever work

They are pushed very hard by the local installers; the

mark-up is huge as far as I can tell.

Jim H. White SSC

Re:

Using furnace filters as whole house room air cleaners

,

In addition to a good furnace filter for whole house air cleaning, we

suggest a UVGI product be installed as well. The McGill University

study, which was a double blind multiple crossover trial proved that

microbial and endotoxin concentrations on irradiated surfaces within

the ventilation system were reduced by 99%.

Respectfully,

Pam Young

GP Air Restoration of

Medallion Healthy Homes

>

> I was searching for something else when I came

> across this article that might interest some on this list:

>

> Using Furnace Filters as Whole House Room Air Cleaners

>

> Ker-Ching (K.C.) Hsieh, Ph.D., Particle Tech, Inc. St. , MN

>

> There have been significant improvements on 1 "

> furnace type filters over the last ten years. The

> fiberglass furnace filter was originally designed

> to keep the house ventilation system clean from

> large particles and debris. Since most of the

> house furnace blowers are not designed to operate

> in high static pressure environment, the

> fiberglass furnace filter can share only a

> limited amount of pressure drop. The 1 "

> fiberglass furnace filter with low-pressure drop

> and low cost naturally became the most common choice.

>

> Two things have changed. First, is the better

> design of the filters by adopting pleated

> structure to reduce the media velocity. Lower

> media velocity typically leads to higher filter

> efficiency and lower pressure drop. Secondly, the

> variety of specialty media (e.g., tribo-charged

> media, split fibers, large effective fiber

> diameter (EFD) melt-blown electret…), which have

> significant higher initial efficiencies with

> relatively low pressure drops have been introduced for this

application.

>

> The enhanced performance of some of the pleated

> type furnace filters has elevated the traditional

> role of 1 " fiberglass furnace filters from

> protecting the residential ventilation system to

> improving the indoor air quality (IAQ) in a

> residential environment1. Pleated type furnace

> filters, when selected and used properly, can

> potentially reduce the indoor air pollutants

> significantly and the advantages are multifold.

> For example, for allergy sufferers, houses

> installed with specialty pleated type media

> furnace filters can potentially alleviate the

> symptoms of sneezing, watering eyes, itching

> throat, postnasal drip, coughing etc. during the

> pollen season. The reduction of indoor air

> particle concentration by pleated type furnace

> filters can also slow down the settling of dust

> and respirable particles2 inside the house.

>

> http://www.nafahq.

org/Articles/ Article002. htm

>

Everyone is raving about the

all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.

February 5, 2007

Don,

Interesting findings. On one hand I was somewhat surprised that the

HEPA wasn't significantly better than the others. On the other hand,

I wasn't surprised because it is a bypass type filter.

Any opinions from anyone on using a combination of in-line for

moderate filtering of all the air plus a bypass HEPA for filtering a

portion of the air all the time?

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

> et al,

>

> CMHC did some work on the removal of airborne particulate matter with

> the use of better furnace filters. Here is a summary of some of that

> work: http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/publications/en/rh-pr/tech/99-

> 108_e.pdf

>

> Basically, it can be done but it is probably not warranted for most

> residential applications. First off, you have to have the furnace fan

> running continuously for it to be effective at all. The electricity

> cost for that is in the order of $200-$500 per year, depending upon

> the utility charges in your area. Then there is the additional costs

> of filters and their replacement. The CMHC study found that particle

> concentrations were reduced by a maximum of about 30% in the house

> with a good filter, when the occupants are up and moving around. If

> we had used personal exposure monitors, this reduction would likely

> be even less. People and their activities create particles. A furnace

> filter will not reduce that immediate and close exposure. The furnace

> filters were far more effective at reducing concentrations during

> periods of sleep or occupant absence, when particle counts were

> generally quite low in our study.

>

> I have not seen credible research yet that shows UV is suitable for

> improving residential IAQ. Both for particles and biological

> pollutants, source reduction always seems more practical.

>

> Don Fugler

> CMHC Policy and Research

>

February 6, 2007

Pam

I am not too sure where the nitrogen comes in to the making of ozone; please enlighten me!

The group at McGill only does large building stuff, and some of that very badly (but government employees do not criticise anyone in the province of Quebec as that gets nasty in a hurry). The study has no relation to houses as the equipment, the forced-air systems, and certainly the installation personnel, are entirely different. It is possible to make UV work in large buildings, given enough care in design, installation and maintenance, but that is almost impossible in houses.

I am glad that you have had good results in a few house; I have not seen this sort of result. By the Way, have you been back to see if the necessary maintenance is being done?

Jim H. White SSC

Re: Using furnace filters as whole house room air cleaners

Jim,UVGI...germicidal being the operative word here...NON ozone producing in-duct units are very effective. Any UV lamps located too closely together, especially dirty ones, will arc hence, electrical arc cracks nitrogen and produces ozone. The proper equipment (with correct spacing between the lamps)installed correctly and maintained properly are VERY effective (see McGill University Study). In the last couple of years we have had customers who have opted to have one installed, without complaint of defects or otherwise. I can only speak for the products by our manufacturer. We have never "pushed" them, but we do have people who ask about them and want them, therefore we provide it to them with much success. Most of the products being pushed out there are the familiar named ones...but, familiar isn't always better.Respectfully,Pam Young> >> > I was searching for something else when I came > > across this article that might interest some on this list:> > > > Using Furnace Filters as Whole House Room Air Cleaners> > > > Ker-Ching (K.C.) Hsieh, Ph.D., Particle Tech, Inc. St. , MN> > > > There have been significant improvements on 1" > > furnace type filters over the last ten years. The > > fiberglass furnace filter was originally designed > > to keep the house ventilation system clean from > > large particles and debris. Since most of the > > house furnace blowers are not designed to operate > > in high static pressure environment, the > > fiberglass furnace filter can share only a > > limited amount of pressure drop. The 1" > > fiberglass furnace filter with low-pressure drop > > and low cost naturally became the most common choice.> > > > Two things have changed. First, is the better > > design of the filters by adopting pleated > > structure to reduce the media velocity. Lower > > media velocity typically leads to higher filter > > efficiency and lower pressure drop. Secondly, the > > variety of specialty media (e.g., tribo-charged > > media, split fibers, large effective fiber > > diameter (EFD) melt-blown electret.), which have > > significant higher initial efficiencies with > > relatively low pressure drops have been introduced for this > application.> > > > The enhanced performance of some of the pleated > > type furnace filters has elevated the traditional > > role of 1" fiberglass furnace filters from > > protecting the residential ventilation system to > > improving the indoor air quality (IAQ) in a > > residential environment1. Pleated type furnace > > filters, when selected and used properly, can > > potentially reduce the indoor air pollutants > > significantly and the advantages are multifold. > > For example, for allergy sufferers, houses > > installed with specialty pleated type media > > furnace filters can potentially alleviate the > > symptoms of sneezing, watering eyes, itching > > throat, postnasal drip, coughing etc. during the > > pollen season. The reduction of indoor air > > particle concentration by pleated type furnace > > filters can also slow down the settling of dust > > and respirable particles2 inside the house.> > > > http://www.nafahq.org/Articles/Article002.htm> >>

February 6, 2007

Bob/Ma.

We have a $10K mold cap in FLA. No matter how well you work with insurance companies a cap is a cap.

You have to absorb this type of cost in your work.

I know I have said this before, but with such a cap sometimes the only way to afford doing the job right such as when much cleaning is needed is to cut out the IEP. Pay an IEP and there is no money to clean. We prefer to clean.

Rosen, Ph.D.

www.Mold-Books.com

Re: Using furnace filters as whole house room air cleaners

,In addition to a good furnace filter for whole house air cleaning, we suggest a UVGI product be installed as well. The McGill University study, which was a double blind multiple crossover trial proved that microbial and endotoxin concentrations on irradiated surfaces within the ventilation system were reduced by 99%.Respectfully,Pam YoungGP Air Restoration ofMedallion Healthy Homes>> I was searching for something else when I came > across this article that might interest some on this list:> > Using Furnace Filters as Whole House Room Air Cleaners> > Ker-Ching (K.C.) Hsieh, Ph.D., Particle Tech, Inc. St. , MN> > There have been

significant improvements on 1" > furnace type filters over the last ten years. The > fiberglass furnace filter was originally designed > to keep the house ventilation system clean from > large particles and debris. Since most of the > house furnace blowers are not designed to operate > in high static pressure environment, the > fiberglass furnace filter can share only a > limited amount of pressure drop. The 1" > fiberglass furnace filter with low-pressure drop > and low cost naturally became the most common choice.> > Two things have changed. First, is the better > design of the filters by adopting pleated > structure to reduce the media velocity. Lower > media velocity typically leads to higher filter > efficiency and lower pressure drop. Secondly, the > variety of specialty media (e.g., tribo-charged > media, split fibers, large effective fiber

> diameter (EFD) melt-blown electret…), which have > significant higher initial efficiencies with > relatively low pressure drops have been introduced for this application.> > The enhanced performance of some of the pleated > type furnace filters has elevated the traditional > role of 1" fiberglass furnace filters from > protecting the residential ventilation system to > improving the indoor air quality (IAQ) in a > residential environment1. Pleated type furnace > filters, when selected and used properly, can > potentially reduce the indoor air pollutants > significantly and the advantages are multifold. > For example, for allergy sufferers, houses > installed with specialty pleated type media > furnace filters can potentially alleviate the > symptoms of sneezing, watering eyes, itching > throat, postnasal drip, coughing etc. during the

> pollen season. The reduction of indoor air > particle concentration by pleated type furnace > filters can also slow down the settling of dust > and respirable particles2 inside the house.> > http://www.nafahq. org/Articles/ Article002. htm>

Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.

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February 6, 2007

Jim,

According to NIEHS, the electrical arc releases oxides of nitrogen,

which are gaseous combinations of oxygen and nitrogen. One of the

combinations is NO2 (nitrogen dioxide), which breaks down to NO

(nitric oxide) and a free oxygen atom. The free oxygen atom then

barges into the oxygen pair to form O3.

It is because of the proprietary high grade quartz lamps designed by

the manufacturer that allows for clean UV germicidal in-duct units

placed in those few homes with complete success.

Respectfully,

Pam Young

> > >

> > > I was searching for something else when I came

> > > across this article that might interest some on this list:

> > >

> > > Using Furnace Filters as Whole House Room Air Cleaners

> > >

> > > Ker-Ching (K.C.) Hsieh, Ph.D., Particle Tech, Inc. St. ,

MN

> > >

> > > There have been significant improvements on 1 "

> > > furnace type filters over the last ten years. The

> > > fiberglass furnace filter was originally designed

> > > to keep the house ventilation system clean from

> > > large particles and debris. Since most of the

> > > house furnace blowers are not designed to operate

> > > in high static pressure environment, the

> > > fiberglass furnace filter can share only a

> > > limited amount of pressure drop. The 1 "

> > > fiberglass furnace filter with low-pressure drop

> > > and low cost naturally became the most common choice.

> > >

> > > Two things have changed. First, is the better

> > > design of the filters by adopting pleated

> > > structure to reduce the media velocity. Lower

> > > media velocity typically leads to higher filter

> > > efficiency and lower pressure drop. Secondly, the

> > > variety of specialty media (e.g., tribo-charged

> > > media, split fibers, large effective fiber

> > > diameter (EFD) melt-blown electret.), which have

> > > significant higher initial efficiencies with

> > > relatively low pressure drops have been introduced for this

> > application.

> > >

> > > The enhanced performance of some of the pleated

> > > type furnace filters has elevated the traditional

> > > role of 1 " fiberglass furnace filters from

> > > protecting the residential ventilation system to

> > > improving the indoor air quality (IAQ) in a

> > > residential environment1. Pleated type furnace

> > > filters, when selected and used properly, can

> > > potentially reduce the indoor air pollutants

> > > significantly and the advantages are multifold.

> > > For example, for allergy sufferers, houses

> > > installed with specialty pleated type media

> > > furnace filters can potentially alleviate the

> > > symptoms of sneezing, watering eyes, itching

> > > throat, postnasal drip, coughing etc. during the

> > > pollen season. The reduction of indoor air

> > > particle concentration by pleated type furnace

> > > filters can also slow down the settling of dust

> > > and respirable particles2 inside the house.

> > >

> > > http://www.nafahq.org/Articles/Article002.htm

> > >

> >

>

February 6, 2007

Any opinions from

anyone on using a combination of in-line for

moderate filtering of all the air plus a bypass HEPA for filtering a

portion of the air all the time?

I don't trust the HEPA systems myself. I have seen cases

where the filter in these units also had bypass air. HEPAs require

a tight fit, which usually means clamping, because they have so much

pressure drop across the filter. With this much pressure drop, it

doesn't take much of a leak to bypass the filter.

I think the main reason I don't like these units is that they are a fox

watching the hen house thing. No one regulates the claims of these

guys. They like to tout the fact that is has a HEPA filter; but

that only means that the FILTER was tested--not the whole system.

Even if they produced test data, you have to question that.

Interesting how test data can be found to support these kinds of

things. Just look at the Idiot's Breeze. We have just too

many products in this industry, and the allergy industry, that are

unregulated, except in the courts.

******************************************************

If what is written looks too stupid to be written by me, I disclaim

it. On

the other hand, if it is brilliant, then I have no one to blame but

myself.

Otherwise, whether you choose to accept my opinion is up to you.

******************************************************

K. Klein, PE ME, MBA

Indoor Air Quality Solutions, Inc.

2523 SR 133

Bethel, OH 45106-0007

VOICE:

FAX: (with notice)

E-mail: mkklein68@...

*******************************************************

When I was younger, I had all of the answers.

As I get older, I have discovered the questions.

February 6, 2007

,

Have you ever heard of the “Insurance

Information Institute (III)? Look at what they said about cost to remediate:

http://www.aia.org/static/state_local_resources/liabilityreform/III%20Testimony.pdf

tell me what you think about your thoughts

now. The insured pays for coverage and the carrier limits it yet never gives a

reduced rate. Also, the industry knew about this in the early 80’s yet

rather than educate the general public they buried it.

Now you come along and try to help out the

insured while offering a service and they want you who did not get paid to

insure the risk to now eat the cost. Not I especillally after I hear they

carriers are projecting profits over 3 billion while they squeeze the

contractor (not all – just some).

I cant

teach you anything b/c you already know it. In the mean time, In the mean time I

will keep working and not for nothing or Mexican wages. I paid too much for my

education and training.

BTW there are ways to open the cap. Enjoy.

Bob/Ma.

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of gary rosen

Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007

4:06 PM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: Re: Using

furnace filters as whole house room air cleaners

Bob/Ma.

We have a $10K mold cap in FLA. No matter how well you work with

insurance companies a cap is a cap.

You have to absorb this type of cost in your work.

I know I have said this before, but with such a cap sometimes the only

way to afford doing the job right such as when much cleaning is needed is to

cut out the IEP. Pay an IEP and there is no money to clean.

We prefer to clean.

Rosen, Ph.D.

www.Mold-Books.com

Re: Using furnace filters as whole house

room air cleaners

,

In addition to a good furnace filter for whole house air cleaning, we

suggest a UVGI product be installed as well. The McGill University

study, which was a double blind multiple crossover trial proved that

microbial and endotoxin concentrations on irradiated surfaces within

the ventilation system were reduced by 99%.

Respectfully,

Pam Young

GP Air Restoration of

Medallion Healthy Homes

>

> I was searching for something else when I came

> across this article that might interest some on this list:

>

> Using Furnace Filters as Whole House Room Air Cleaners

>

> Ker-Ching (K.C.) Hsieh, Ph.D., Particle Tech, Inc. St. , MN

>

> There have been significant improvements on 1 "

> furnace type filters over the last ten years. The

> fiberglass furnace filter was originally designed

> to keep the house ventilation system clean from

> large particles and debris. Since most of the

> house furnace blowers are not designed to operate

> in high static pressure environment, the

> fiberglass furnace filter can share only a

> limited amount of pressure drop. The 1 "

> fiberglass furnace filter with low-pressure drop

> and low cost naturally became the most common choice.

>

> Two things have changed. First, is the better

> design of the filters by adopting pleated

> structure to reduce the media velocity. Lower

> media velocity typically leads to higher filter

> efficiency and lower pressure drop. Secondly, the

> variety of specialty media (e.g., tribo-charged

> media, split fibers, large effective fiber

> diameter (EFD) melt-blown electret…), which have

> significant higher initial efficiencies with

> relatively low pressure drops have been introduced for this

application.

>

> The enhanced performance of some of the pleated

> type furnace filters has elevated the traditional

> role of 1 " fiberglass furnace filters from

> protecting the residential ventilation system to

> improving the indoor air quality (IAQ) in a

> residential environment1. Pleated type furnace

> filters, when selected and used properly, can

> potentially reduce the indoor air pollutants

> significantly and the advantages are multifold.

> For example, for allergy sufferers, houses

> installed with specialty pleated type media

> furnace filters can potentially alleviate the

> symptoms of sneezing, watering eyes, itching

> throat, postnasal drip, coughing etc. during the

> pollen season. The reduction of indoor air

> particle concentration by pleated type furnace

> filters can also slow down the settling of dust

> and respirable particles2 inside the house.

>

> http://www.nafahq.

org/Articles/ Article002. htm

>

Everyone is raving

about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.

We won't tell. Get

more on shows you hate to love

(and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.

Looking for earth-friendly autos?

Browse

Top Cars by " Green Rating " at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center.

February 6, 2007

" I know I have said this before, but with such a cap sometimes the

only way to afford doing the job right such as when much cleaning is

needed is to cut out the IEP. Pay an IEP and there is no money to

clean. We prefer to clean. "

Bullocks !

[Talking bollocks

In this context it means talking nonsense or even bullshit, for

example " don't listen to him, he's talking bollocks " . Talking

bollocks in a corporate context is referred to as bollockspeak.

Bollockspeak tends to be buzzword-laden and largely content-

free. " Rupert, we'll have to leverage our synergies to facilitate a

paradigm shift by Q4 " is an example of management bollockspeak. The

act of talking bollocks whilst waving one's arms about wildly is

referred to as testiculation. In addition, the word bollocks can be

used to annunciate a lie, an incorrect statement, an unfair

situation, a spot of bad luck or something completely pointless,

i.e " what a load of bollocks " . A quotation from O'Farrel

includes a range of examples of this usage: a character attending a

comedy awards ceremony says " These awards are a load of bollocks.

It's all bollocks, all of it. These people: bollocks; this whole

industry: complete bollocks; these prizes: meaningless bollocks; all

these free gifts: marketing bollocks; this food: pure bollocks. " [1]

[edit] Bollocks!

Bollocks! can be used as a standalone interjection to express strong

disagreement. This usage is closely related to the above; it

dismisses a statement as nonsense, similar to bullshit in the US.

This can be expanded, for example, to " What a complete and utter

load of bollocks! "

A relatively common expression in some circles, with a similar

meaning, is " Yer ballax! " (Your bollocks).

Sometimes bollocks is combined with an abbreviated version of the

original statement, e.g.:]

> >

> > I was searching for something else when I came

> > across this article that might interest some on this list:

> >

> > Using Furnace Filters as Whole House Room Air Cleaners

> >

> > Ker-Ching (K.C.) Hsieh, Ph.D., Particle Tech, Inc. St. , MN

> >

> > There have been significant improvements on 1 "

> > furnace type filters over the last ten years. The

> > fiberglass furnace filter was originally designed

> > to keep the house ventilation system clean from

> > large particles and debris. Since most of the

> > house furnace blowers are not designed to operate

> > in high static pressure environment, the

> > fiberglass furnace filter can share only a

> > limited amount of pressure drop. The 1 "

> > fiberglass furnace filter with low-pressure drop

> > and low cost naturally became the most common choice.

> >

> > Two things have changed. First, is the better

> > design of the filters by adopting pleated

> > structure to reduce the media velocity. Lower

> > media velocity typically leads to higher filter

> > efficiency and lower pressure drop. Secondly, the

> > variety of specialty media (e.g., tribo-charged

> > media, split fibers, large effective fiber

> > diameter (EFD) melt-blown electret…), which have

> > significant higher initial efficiencies with

> > relatively low pressure drops have been introduced for this

> application.

> >

> > The enhanced performance of some of the pleated

> > type furnace filters has elevated the traditional

> > role of 1 " fiberglass furnace filters from

> > protecting the residential ventilation system to

> > improving the indoor air quality (IAQ) in a

> > residential environment1. Pleated type furnace

> > filters, when selected and used properly, can

> > potentially reduce the indoor air pollutants

> > significantly and the advantages are multifold.

> > For example, for allergy sufferers, houses

> > installed with specialty pleated type media

> > furnace filters can potentially alleviate the

> > symptoms of sneezing, watering eyes, itching

> > throat, postnasal drip, coughing etc. during the

> > pollen season. The reduction of indoor air

> > particle concentration by pleated type furnace

> > filters can also slow down the settling of dust

> > and respirable particles2 inside the house.

> >

> > http://www.nafahq. org/Articles/ Article002. htm

> >

>

> Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.

>

> We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love

> (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.

>

_____________________________________________________________________

_______________

> Any questions? Get answers on any topic at www.Answers.yahoo.com.

Try it now.

>

February 7, 2007

,

Are you implying that Mr. Rosen would be like to remove the IEP and become a

fox in uniform guarding the hen-house?