Re: [POLITICS]? Re: Population reduction

[Guest guest]

> -----Original Message-----

> From: panamabob@...

>

> So those that are smart enough, find ways to expand into the

> vacuum...i.e. oceans, even other planets.

I don't see large-scale colonization of other planets happening any time

soon, and it may never become economically feasible. Without a compact,

cheap, and virtually limitless source of energy, it's just not worth it. If

we could use bacteria or some other chain reaction to create an atmosphere

on the Moon or Mars, it might be feasible to move people there (but we still

have the energy issue), but colonization of distant star systems may remain

forever beyond our power.

Besides, as a method of population management, colonization isn't enough.

You have to find a way to move hundreds of millions of people. Not that

we're likely to need population management with the current trends towards

lower birth rates.

> Europeans felt " trapped' in the system they had back

> then and expanded to the virgin Americas 9granted the

> indigenous people in " America " already were populating...

> thank you very much... but once again the strong dominate the

> weak...and thanks to technology (and introduction of diseases

> unknown to the new world) wiped out or subjugated and took

> over resources.

I just thought of something: Why weren't the Europeans wiped out by American

diseases?

[Guest guest]

>

>

>>Even then, I think that the majority of the planet will still end up

>>being primarily cereal-burners.

>

>

[Heidi]I could argue that. I think that as petrol prices go up, it IS

possible that people will buy more " close to home " . At any

rate, per the original argument, it is more " NT " to eat " close to home " .

Preferably from your own garden even. Now, for SOME folks that

might mean cereals, but cereals in general are darn energy-draining.

(they needed slaves or farm animals in the old days, petrol now).

You can grow enough collards or potatoes to feed your household

with some weekend work, but to harvest and thresh enough wheat

would be a far bigger deal. Raising a cow or some ducks or a goat, OTOH,

is easier than raising your average house dog, which people do on a

regular basis. Calorie for calorie, meat is cheaper.

So, I'd argue, that if food production gets closer to home, it's more

likely to look like old-time Italy or France, which meant *meat animals*

and vegies. Cereals took over because of cheap petroleum, plus

food subsidies. Cereals aren't cheap at ALL if you have to do the

labor!

-----------------

[Deanna]Yes, I think when you grow your own food and look at all involved, fruit

and veg look real good seasonally, with animals rounding out the menu. Nuts are

fruits, so that covers that.

----------------

>>

>>

>>So...what do you think somebody could support on 3 acres of pasture?

>>This isn't a hypothetical, though right now time is our limiting

>>factor (spouse-to-be-Sunday is working mandatory 7 shifts/wk and

>>being begged to take overtime, I have a big commute plus musical

>>stuff). How do you handle goats and your lawn...do you stake them?

>

>

[Heidi] First, goats don't like lawn much. Mine eat the blackberries which

keep cropping up, keep the forest areas trimmed. But they do

trim the lawn too. I have stakes where there aren't trees ... someone

(my dd usually) puts them out in the am and they much til evening, unless

the weather is too wet. Ideally we'd put up fences, which is the plan,

and pasture them with ducks and geese. Ducks and geese are better

at trimming grass, esp. since they eat dandelions.

-----------------------

[Deanna] El pato it is then, because we like our blackberries, all 50+ lbs,

thank you very much.

------------------

[Heidi] We have 15 chickens, 10 ducks, 2 goats, and use maybe 1 acre of our 5

acre

lot. It takes about 20 minutes a day, most days, to feed and water everyone.

Our meat chickens take 6 weeks to raise, about 15 minutes a day of care.

It's building the pens, getting a water supply, fences, set up that takes

the time. Mostly the animals care for themselves, and unlike cats and dogs,

they don't need human interaction particularly. We just have to make sure

they get fenced in at night so they don't get eaten.

We also get 40+ lbs of berries a year, from what grows wild. I'm trying to

" tame "

the berry bushes so they are more harvestable. They produce a lot more, but

it's hard to get them all before they go bad. And we have more rhubarb than we

can ever use. The berries and rhubarb take care of themselves mostly, but

I need to allocate the time to harvest them.

I expect to fence in another acre, and have about 5-10 more goats, meat

goats, not fiber goats, which we'll probably rotate around to keep the

brush trimmed. The chickens keep the bugs down in the garden, and the

ducks kill the slugs. Both give eggs. With an incubator and a male goat,

I'd guess we could be close to self-sufficient, except that we can't

raise grains ... they don't grow well here AT ALL and are a pain to process.

So to raise our own foods, we'd have to use turnips, parsnips, carrots,

and potatoes for starches. Collards are really simple, it's just a matter

of keeping the slugs off, ditto for kale. Beans and pumpkins are a little

more work, but not much.

---------------------------

[Deanna] What about beans? And apples up there? We can do black eyed peas,

which fix nitrogen and are SOOO easy. Fruits like CHERRIES MY FAVORITE grow in

your neck. We do peaches and plums and need to plant pecans. Strawberries do

well here, too. These are frozen and some dried.

-----------------------------

[Heidi] Anyway, I haven't worked out the exact math, since we mainly get one

beef a year for most of our meat, and I don't want to handle a steer (too

big). Economically, I think 1 500 lb steer is about 100 chickens, which I

could grow in 4 batches, in 4 months, in our little dog-kennel size 'covered'

coop. Each batch takes 1 month to raise. Ducks, I think, are even easier,

though I'm still experimenting with that.

As for would this require a paradigm shift ... heck yes! But then I don't

think the current system is sustainable. There HAS to be a paradigm shift.

Coming up with a Mc's Franchise Type Paradigm might make the

shift easier for the poor folks who suddenly get stuck in the middle of it.

Already the zoning laws are changing ... you can legally have laying chickens

in Seattle, just not roosters. In LA, my Mom tells me they have chickens all

over, though not legally (no one is enforcing the zoning laws ...). Actually

I had them when I was a kid, again not legally, but they aren't really

something you would notice unless you have a rooster.

---------------------

[Deanna] Now, this is the most brilliant piece of " grow your own " literature,

number one. City folk may not recognize it as such, because they haven't lived

it. Ducks sound real good, and we can think about that when either 1) we dig a

pond, or 2) we move to more land further out there in the sticks.

The only thing I will add is hunting game. Wild turkey season is nearly here.

We live in a 2 horse town that IS growing, yet, we had gobblers 1/8 mile down

the road coming in. We are going to bowhunt, probably starting with deer in

fall. This is Texas, y'all, and things are pretty darn well free and easy here.

And ya know what else? An arrow shot is a pretty silent affair. Maybe I'll

practice on the toms if I get too many in the chicks that we'll take soon.

Anyhoo, we do get deer in the garden in autumn. And we might raise turkeys, who

knows. But game hunting does represent another alternative to " buying locally, "

yet is locally attainable. I get a recurve for practice next week. I may go

with a 40-50# compound bow for big game, just for the pure reason of humane

killing. One deer is a big amount of meat.

The more we return to nature, the easier the petrol breakdown will be, imho.

Thanks for this whole breakdown of your farming situation, Heidi. It's good to

share notes.

Deanna

[Guest guest]

> The Earth is a banquet of opportunities

Oh, man. I loved that. Such a rare viewpoint.

Ron

[Guest guest]

yes it is agreat thing that most folks overlook..

And yes , space travel or colonization is out of reach for the moment, hence the

suggestion to more feasible ocean colonization... the technology exist through

OTEC and floating platforms and " oil rig " architecture. The perfect places

for OTEC are along the equatorial belt that also provides the areas of doldrums

.... " softer " weather patterns reducing the robustness necessary for survival.

Many cultures already live nearly 100% of their lives on water , such a the boat

people of Hong Kong and Iraq and other such areas. Historically Mexico cities

predecessor was supported by floating areas and canals... so its not a new

concept...just one that needs to be embraced in larger scale. That could easily

relieve the earth pressure of concentrated populations for another 100 years

until space venturing becomes doable, thanks to new upcoming discoveries or even

something as simple as a space elevator...an elevator from earth surface to low

earth orbit...half the energy for getting anywhere is used up in getting the

first 60 odd miles behind you. :-)

One step at a time folks... we can do it....

> The Earth is a banquet of opportunities

Oh, man. I loved that. Such a rare viewpoint.

Ron

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[Guest guest]

> Anyway, folks DO move to the country a lot, and then " citify " it.

> Not everyone: some, like you, prefer the city. But enough folks

> move that the wilderness shrinks.

>

> Heidi Jean

I've had people mention to me, from different small towns here in northern

New England that citifying is a problem. It's seems pretty common that

people move from a more populated area, get involved in local politics,

sometimes just to build and then work to loosen town laws not understanding

that the laws are that way to preserve all the life in the small town.

Wanita

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[Guest guest]

> I just thought of something: Why weren't the Europeans wiped out by

> American

> diseases?

>

>

Assuming you mean Native American diseases. Domesticating livestock, large

populations living closely together and vermin made all the communicable

diseases of the Europeans. As none of these were their lifestyle there were

no diseases to pass on, although I've seen blame given by historians to

Native Americans for syphillus and gonorreha. The issue more was that the

Native Americans had had no exposure so there was no immunity.

Wanita

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[Guest guest]

>[Deanna] What about beans? And apples up there? We can do black eyed peas,

which fix nitrogen and are SOOO easy. Fruits like CHERRIES MY FAVORITE grow in

your neck. We do peaches and plums and need to plant pecans. Strawberries do

well here, too. These are frozen and some dried.

[Heidi] Beans grow great too ... but I forgot to harvest them last year. Sigh.

It's a learning curve. I'm planting more fruit trees this year. The hazelnuts

are just starting to bear. Fava beans, incendentally, grow during the winter, as

do cabbage and collards, and you can do lettuce year round.

>---------------------

>[Deanna] Now, this is the most brilliant piece of " grow your own " literature,

number one. City folk may not recognize it as such, because they haven't lived

it. Ducks sound real good, and we can think about that when either 1) we dig a

pond, or 2) we move to more land further out there in the sticks.

[Heidi] Ducks only need a little wading pool, and some folks don't even give

them that. They don't crow! Some folks DO keep them in the city. I got a kids

wading pool and I'm putting in a " drain valve " to make it easy to drain (you

need to empty it every couple of days). The drained yecchy stuff is great

fertilizer. They are about as good egg layers as chickens.

>[Deanna] The only thing I will add is hunting game. Wild turkey season is

nearly here. We live in a 2 horse town that IS growing, yet, we had gobblers

1/8 mile down the road coming in. We are going to bowhunt, probably starting

with deer in fall. This is Texas, y'all, and things are pretty darn well free

and easy here. And ya know what else? An arrow shot is a pretty silent affair.

Maybe I'll practice on the toms if I get too many in the chicks that we'll take

soon. Anyhoo, we do get deer in the garden in autumn. And we might raise

turkeys, who knows. But game hunting does represent another alternative to

" buying locally, " yet is locally attainable. I get a recurve for practice next

week. I may go with a 40-50# compound bow for big game, just for the pure

reason of humane killing. One deer is a big amount of meat.

[Heidi] Deer and elk can forage as semi-farm species too. One elk grows on 1/3

the food as a cow, and they eat stuff like bark and shrubs, so they keep the

undergrowth (read: fire hazard) clear. I'm with you on bows and arrows ...

another thing, you don't have to keep buying ammo for them, and they don't shoot

lead all over the place. My dd got a small one to " play " with. Hmm. Deanna,

?

>[Deanna] The more we return to nature, the easier the petrol breakdown will be,

imho. Thanks for this whole breakdown of your farming situation, Heidi. It's

good to share notes.

[Heidi] Yes, we should share notes. I'm convinced there are easy ways to do

" city farming " . Well, I KNOW there were because my Mom did it when she was a kid

.... she lived on a normal city block, in town, but everyone had chickens and

tomatoes and such. I was at the hardware store today and when I saw the sheer

amount of " frufru " gardening junk! Mostly chemicals, and hedgers, trimmers,

mowers ... folks spending hours and hours to grow rhodies (toxic) and have green

lawns. Shoot, in my mind, greenery and bugs are FOOD for someone, why should I

spend MY time trimming grass and weeding the garden? I know someone who'll do it

for chicken feed ...

>

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

Try making kimchi with young kudzu leaves and tips. It IS edible.

Darrell

[Guest guest]

-

>Wouldn't it be more a matter of the germs adapting to them? That is, a virus

>capable of infecting both guinea pigs and humans would reproduce faster than

>one capable of infecting only one or the other. If anything, I'd expect

>selective pressure in guinea pigs themselves to lean in the direction of

>greater resistance to human diseases.

Guinea pigs would off course move in the direction of greater resistance,

though adaptation to human environments and foods and whatnot might well

more than offset this movement, at least for a period of time, but germs

evolve much faster than guinea pigs. It's not at all unheard of for germs

to leap from one animal species to another when the two species are in

close proximity for a good while.

-

[Guest guest]

-

>No it isn't. The average city dweller has a few hundred (or more) square

>feet of private living space and can roam around as much as he likes.

I'm sure that's true for people who make good money like you, but it's

certainly the exception in my neighborhood. I don't know if you remember

my apartment, but for a single guy it's pretty large. For two people it's

still decent-sized (my girlfriend and I each have our own offices, plus

there's the living room, the bedroom, and another room that's currently

just filled with junk) but it has its drawbacks because it's a railroad

apartment, essentially meaning that to go anywhere, you have to walk

through my office. But we're the aberration in this building. Every other

apartment is home to a large family, often with several kids. People are

in fact jammed in pretty tightly, though obviously comparing the situation

to a factory farm is a major exaggeration. (That'd be more like those

sleeping tubes in Tokyo.) Though some people are usually out at work

during the day or the night, there are always a lot of people around, and

my building is the rule, not the exception, until you move into much more

expensive neighborhoods.

-

[Guest guest]

here is the sites with pictures...

n~equi's and paca's... paca's are larger

Family Dasyproctidae

http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/accounts/information/Dasyproctidae.ht\

ml

Family Agoutidae

http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/accounts/information/Agoutidae..html

[Guest guest]

> Message: 22

> Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 19:55:32 -0800

> From: Heidi Schuppenhauer <heidis@...>

> Subject: Re: [POLITICS]? Re: Population reduction

>

Thanks for a really thoughtful reply! I didn't get to this earlier,

because I was busy getting married this weekend.

>

>> But the wars of the next century are going to

>> have a lot to do with demographics,

>

> Maybe. The US is still on top militarily, and not because we

> have the biggest army. Technology has a lot to do with it.

>

Yes. But I wonder about the ultimate efficacy of fighting asymmetric

privatized enemies with centralized government armies. To the extent

that rogue states support terrorists, it's useful, I suppose. But

basically ineffective against terrorism.

>

> So, I'd argue, that if food production gets closer to home, it's more

> likely to look like old-time Italy or France, which meant *meat

> animals*

> and vegies. Cereals took over because of cheap petroleum, plus

> food subsidies. Cereals aren't cheap at ALL if you have to do the

> labor!

>

Yet..it seems that most cultures have been cereal-based. That may have

been because of the superior storage ability of cereals. That's the

only reason I can see for something uneconomical.

>

> The folks who argue that cereals are cheap don't seem to have

> ever tried to raise and harvest any.

I haven't but may this year.

> It IS true that they are cheap in

> our rather skewed current environment, but THAT is based on large-scale

> irrigation, cheap petrol, and farm subsidies. I tried growing all

> kinds of

> food ... cereals, goats, chickens, ducks, potatoes, collards ... and so

> far ducks are the winner for work in vs. harvest out, followed by

> goats.

> And collards are best for vitamin content (they don't have many or any

> calories, so I can't count them for that).

>

Never grew collards, but have found mustard greens to be mindless, and

green beans. That was at the city place though

>>

>> So...what do you think somebody could support on 3 acres of pasture?

>> This isn't a hypothetical, though right now time is our limiting

>> factor (spouse-to-be-Sunday is working mandatory 7 shifts/wk and

>> being begged to take overtime, I have a big commute plus musical

>> stuff). How do you handle goats and your lawn...do you stake them?

>

> First, goats don't like lawn much. Mine eat the blackberries which

> keep cropping up, keep the forest areas trimmed.

We have a couple acres of woods to manage too, which is not fenced.

Seems like goats could be useful there, but we'd really have to fence

it...which first means establishing the property lines. It would have

to be a meat goat thing for now though, as I'm commuting to a regular

job plus musical gigs, and Mrs. Quick drives truck in a steel mill, has

no regular schedule and currently has to do a minimum 7 shifts a week,

and they beg for more overtime.

>

> Our meat chickens take 6 weeks to raise, about 15 minutes a day of

> care.

What are you raising and what weight are you butchering at? 6 weeks

seems short even for a fast Cornish Cross.

> And we have more rhubarb than we

> can ever use. The berries and rhubarb take care of themselves mostly,

> but

> I need to allocate the time to harvest them.

>

I could never grow rhubarb on my city lot...clay and too damp, I think.

> I expect to fence in another acre, and have about 5-10 more goats, meat

> goats, not fiber goats, which we'll probably rotate around to keep the

> brush trimmed. The chickens keep the bugs down in the garden, and the

> ducks kill the slugs. Both give eggs. With an incubator and a male

> goat,

> I'd guess we could be close to self-sufficient, except that we can't

> raise grains ... they don't grow well here AT ALL and are a pain to

> process.

> So to raise our own foods, we'd have to use turnips, parsnips, carrots,

> and potatoes for starches. Collards are really simple, it's just a

> matter

> of keeping the slugs off, ditto for kale. Beans and pumpkins are a

> little

> more work, but not much.

Green beans, mustard, and chard have been idiot-proof for me. Chinese

cabbage and daikon did well last year, and sweet potatoes the year

before. But with new land and microclimate, it's a crap shoot again.