Re: Re: Detox Ideas (from concrete etc)

March 19, 2005

Gatorade has artificial colors and high fructose corn syrup. I like the

taste but can't bring myself to buy it!

high fructose corn syrup - yuck

Nanette

RE: Re: Detox Ideas (from concrete etc)

Ron-

>IIRC the sugar content of coconut water is identical to that of Gatorade.

>It's one of the proverbial 7% sports drinks with all natural ingredients.

>Is it possible that pure sugar in that concentration has particular effects

>that sugar in heavier or lighter concentrations does not?

And you think Gatorade is a good thing?

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March 19, 2005

> -

>

>>Its the benign dietary ketosis that fasting produces that is effective,

>>at least in the case of epileptic seizures:

>>

>>http://www.stanford.edu/group/ketodiet/FAQ.html

>>

>>Keep in mind that medical ketogenic diets were " developed " with the idea

>>of finding a dietary approach that mimics the results of fasting without

>>actually having to fast.

>

> Yes (though I think ketogenic diets have a more varied history than that)

> but my point is that since the benefits accrue via either fasting OR a

> ketogenic diet, it doesn't seem to be fasting that's the cause at all, but

> the removal of sufficient carbs.

>

> -

Also, if schizophrenia is diabetes or insulin resistance of the brain as

T.S. Wiley says in Lights Out! Sleep, Sugar and Survival, carbohydrate free

or water fasting would starve the brain of glucose and the ketogenic diet

would feed the glucogon starved brain. Fast would require not returning to a

high glucose producing diet. Ketogenic diet would require maintaining a high

fat diet. Which would provide better odds to long term healing? Starving an

abundance to one energy production pathway or feeding a deficiency produced

by not using another?

Wanita

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March 19, 2005

Hi Wanita,

> Not Heidi, but I was good competition along with you on the

> sweet, floury

> foods before going gf. In the appendixes of Metabolic Man,

> 10,000 Years from

> Eden,

I actually bought this book when you recommended it to someone else a while

back. I haven't read it yet but will move it up the " to be read " list.

> Must admit, still can't kick the coffee but it's always

> black, organic and

> through unbleached filters.

I hear you. I gave it up for a year. When I tried to re-integrate it into

my diet I found that was yo-yoing. I definitely have trouble controlling

the quantities.

> If you're juicing, veggies alone

> even, you're

> still keeping that carbs and glucose energy base going.

Yes. Nicely said.

Here's the problem. I have this very, very strong intuitive sense that I

need vegetable carbohydrate. When I go zero or very low carb, which I have

done over the past year for extended periods, it feels wrong to me. So, is

this my body giving me a correct signal or is it my body trying to trick me

back into eating improper foods? I can't resolve the issue.

> Brain fog,

> disoriented, real yukky with fasts sounds like Heidi giving

> up gluten.

Okay. Yes, it's looking like this is a problem for me after all.

> Bone

> broths as Robin brought up would be a better choice if you

> feel you must

> fast. Carbohydrates are metabolizing and burning off too

> quickly and kicking

> in craving for more. is right on thyroid and adrenals. When the

> carbohydrate energy base gets replaced with the protein your hunger,

> metabolism changes so you don't crave the carbohydrates anymore.

>

Got it.

Did you see my question earlier about your knowledge of Metabolic Typing

principles?

Ron

March 19, 2005

Hi ,

> >IIRC the sugar content of coconut water is identical to that

> of Gatorade.

> >It's one of the proverbial 7% sports drinks with all natural

> ingredients.

> >Is it possible that pure sugar in that concentration has

> particular effects

> >that sugar in heavier or lighter concentrations does not?

>

> And you think Gatorade is a good thing?

It certainly has interesting properties. There is a ton of literature about

it. In people who live in the carbohydrate eating world it has unique

properties.

A natural version, a la coconut water, may well be the elixir we are all

looking for. There sure have been reports about its benefits to this list

that would support that idea.

Ron

March 19, 2005

> RE: Re: Detox Ideas (from concrete etc)

>

>Hi Wanita,

>

>> Not Heidi, but I was good competition along with you on the

>> sweet, floury

>> foods before going gf. In the appendixes of Metabolic Man,

>> 10,000 Years from

>> Eden,

>

>I actually bought this book when you recommended it to someone else a while

>back. I haven't read it yet but will move it up the " to be read " list.

>

>> Must admit, still can't kick the coffee but it's always

>> black, organic and

>> through unbleached filters.

I bought some filters from Green Mountain Coffee Roasters. On the box it

says there is no measurable dioxin at min. detection level of 2 ppb and

Chlorine test accuracy to 3 ppb. THey are white and they say they use an

oxygen cleaning process rather than bleaching. They also say that " natural "

or " brown " filters " still contain tars, oil, lignin, and other impurities

innate in natural wood pulp. " I have no idea if these are of concern to

health or not.

>

>I hear you. I gave it up for a year. When I tried to re-integrate it into

>my diet I found that was yo-yoing. I definitely have trouble controlling

>the quantities.

Have you considered going to decaf? I made the switch over a year ago and

didn't notice any negative effects, but only the positive effect of no

longer having night sweats. I made some other changes at the time so am not

sure it was the caffeine reduction though.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

>

March 19, 2005

Suze-

>I bought some filters from Green Mountain Coffee Roasters. On the box it

>says there is no measurable dioxin at min. detection level of 2 ppb and

>Chlorine test accuracy to 3 ppb. THey are white and they say they use an

>oxygen cleaning process rather than bleaching. They also say that " natural "

>or " brown " filters " still contain tars, oil, lignin, and other impurities

>innate in natural wood pulp. " I have no idea if these are of concern to

>health or not.

Interesting. I don't think tars, at least, would be at all desirable, and

I once read that wire basket filters are no good because paper filters

absorb some sort of harmful oil or other from the coffee, so those sound

interesting.

-

March 19, 2005

Ron-

>A natural version, a la coconut water, may well be the elixir we are all

>looking for. There sure have been reports about its benefits to this list

>that would support that idea.

I'm sure that as sugary liquids go it's among the best, but I'm not sure

that means very much. At least not for people who have to largely avoid carbs.

-

March 20, 2005

Hi ,

> >During each of the four fasts I experienced two separate

> things. The first

> >element was the feeling in my body. The second was the

> feeling in my head

> >or my level of conscious awareness. My head was a wreck

> during each of the

> >four fasts. Brain fog to the point of unawareness

> sometimes. Cognitive

> >dysfunction. Inability to generate memories. General

> absence from present

> >time.

>

> This is sounding worse and worse!

Is it? The symptoms were temporary and stopped when I returned to normal

eating. So the question becomes were those effects the result of a healthy

detoxification or were they caused by something else?

>

> >10 years ago I started

> >having panic attacks that I experienced as heart attack symptoms

> >(tachycardia, arrhythmias). Even though I have gotten them

> under control

> >through diet and mental processes I still sense the " field "

> around my heart.

> >This is pretty lame description, but it's the best I can do.

> On both juice

> >fasts ALL of these symptoms went completely away. My body

> felt coherent and

> >aligned and stable.

>

> Do you eat grains during the normal course of events?

Almost none.

> Or

> other starchy

> foods, like potatoes?

Somewhat more frequently.

> Many people find symptoms like those

> disappear when

> they go on a low-carb or even ketogenic diet.

Yes, everything that has been going on in these posts is pointing me in that

direction. I've been in denial that I may have food allergy issues -- I

just assumed everything was connected to glycemic swings. It looks like I

need to investigate this particular avenue now.

> Alternately,

> your experience

> might be like mine. I used to have panic attacks until I added a

> pancreating enzyme supplement to my meals. Presto, no more panic

> attacks.

Very interesting. There are a lot of people on this list who experienced

panic attacks. Interesting fix, also.

> On a juice fast you wouldn't have that problem

> because you'd be

> eliminating virtually all fat and protein.

On the last fast I was eating about 7 TBSP of VCO per day, so I'm inclined

to think that this is not the problem.

>

> >How so? I'm interested in your thought process here.

>

> Inasmuch as carb cravings come from adrenal axis

> malfunctions,

Is that the only source? I'm not disagreeing with you -- your comment makes

sense -- I'm just wondering if there are other reasons why I might have had

the experience that I did.

> your fasting

> appears to have dramatically stressed your adrenals.

A reasonable conclusion based on your earlier premise but that does not feel

right. If my adrenals were stressed would I not be showing signs of

fatigue? After each detox I felt more awake and had better more natural

feeling energy.

> Also, your body

> responded to your fasts by dropping LBM and adding stubborn

> fat, and ending

> the fasts and working out didn't remedy the situation. This

> tells me that

> you've damaged your metabolism, perhaps permanently, by

> fasting.

Okay. I'm very interested in this. Can you explain what you mean by

permanent damage?

> The first

> symptom, the binging, was due to direct adrenal stress (and nutrient

> depletion generally, I'm sure) and the second, the LBM loss and more

> importantly stubborn fat gain, was due to a long-term

> alteration in your

> metabolism brought about by the famine condition of fasting.

Hmmm. You could be correct, but I have to tell you that it just doesn't

feel correct to me. Over the past year of cleanses I'm finding that with

the exception of the duration of the cleanses and these bouts of carb hell

I'm actually feeling stronger and more stable for longer parts of each day.

>

> >So a 15 pound loss of muscle may well

> >have been correct and a corrective action by my body given

> where I started.

>

> ly I think that's a crock, unless you were some sort of

> hyper-muscled

> freak like those bodybuilding grotesques you see in bodybuilding

> competitions. If you stress your muscles with proper

> exercise, you're

> going to strengthen them and likely add muscle mass. There's nothing

> unnatural about that.

I was not hyper muscled by any stretch, but I did have a bunch of muscle to

lose. After two years of lifting heavily I essentially stopped. While I

continued to work out last year it was mostly some lame cardio augmented

with relatively easy lifting. It makes sense to me that my body might have

dropped LBM in response to that change. As I said -- I'm soft at the moment

but I look fit.

Anyway, this will be easy to tell as I should be stable at my current LBM if

my theory is correct.

>

> >I spend a lot of my time monitoring myself to see if I've

> slipped over the

> >edge into behavior that is no longer about fixing my health

> and into dealing

> >with issues of control -- which is where I think this desire

> for purity

> >comes from.

>

> I don't think a desire for control is the only source of the lust for

> purity, though. There's a valid evolutionary reason for

> desiring some

> forms of purity: pure (or clean) food and water, for example,

> are clearly

> beneficial.

Sure. I think what we are discussing is that desire gone out of control.

>

> >So, the purpose of my cleanses and detoxes are to remove all of the

> >accumulated garbage that I have picked up that has not

> spontaneously gone

> >from eating clean for 3 years. How can you argue with the

> results that you

> >see in the picture I posted to the photo section?

>

> I'm not going to argue with the photos because neither you

> nor I have any

> idea what's in them.

Actually that is not true. I didn't spend a lot of time discussing them but

I can tell you that at least 50% of the material in those pictures came out

of my body bright, shiny green. It all faded pretty quickly in the presence

of air. More on this in another post.

>

> >I would be very interested in reading some of the things

> that have lead you

> >to this conclusion. I have seen very few reports of bad results from

> >fasting. I am not only open to this, I'm actively

> interested in seeing it.

> >Any links you have would be great.

>

> Bulimics will tell you they benefit from their barfing too.

> But like I

> said before, just look at your own experiences. They don't

> sound good.

I don't understand your comment here at all. You are asserting that you

have seen reports of bad results from people doing fasts. I'm listening

carefully because I don't want to do anything that is harmful to my body.

Yet this is the best you can come up with in response to my request that you

support what you are saying?

I'll repeat my question. What other things/people have you seen that leads

you to believe that intelligent fasting and detoxifying is harmful?

Ron

March 20, 2005

Hi Suze,

> Have you considered going to decaf? I made the switch over a

> year ago and

> didn't notice any negative effects, but only the positive effect of no

> longer having night sweats. I made some other changes at the

> time so am not

> sure it was the caffeine reduction though.

I tend to not like decaf because it tastes flat to me. I am interested in

your thoughts on how clean decaf coffee is, though. What is your source?

Do you drink it when you are out?

Ron

March 20, 2005

> RE: Re: Detox Ideas (from concrete etc)

>

>Hi Suze,

>

>> Have you considered going to decaf? I made the switch over a

>> year ago and

>> didn't notice any negative effects, but only the positive effect of no

>> longer having night sweats. I made some other changes at the

>> time so am not

>> sure it was the caffeine reduction though.

>

>I tend to not like decaf because it tastes flat to me. I am interested in

>your thoughts on how clean decaf coffee is, though. What is your source?

>Do you drink it when you are out?

>

>Ron

I love Newmans' organic Swiss water decaf. My understanding is that the

Swiss water process is the cleanest. I also get organic Mexican decaf that

is decaffeinated with ethyl acetate from sugar cane fermentation. I've been

meaning to check on the safety of this process, but haven't yet. Here's a

description of the process: http://www.sweetmarias.com/natural.decaf.html I

honestly don't know if there's anything harmful about this. On the surface

it sounds OK because Ethyl Acetate is a byproduct of fermentation, but, ya

know, taking isolated components of whole foods can be problematic. The

article above doesn't say whether there's any residual Ethyl Acetate after

the beans are washed and steamed after the decaffienation process.

I prefer the Newman's though. I rarely drink coffee out - I just drink a cup

upon awakening. On a rare occasion I might drink some when out, but since

it's so rare, I don't pay much attention to the quality of it.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

>

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March 21, 2005

Ron-

>Is it? The symptoms were temporary and stopped when I returned to normal

>eating. So the question becomes were those effects the result of a healthy

>detoxification or were they caused by something else?

To a degree I guess that's an unanswerable question, unless people start

springing for lab work to investigate the results of detox routines.

>On the last fast I was eating about 7 TBSP of VCO per day, so I'm inclined

>to think that this is not the problem.

Could be you're right, though VCO requires much less in the way of

digestive resources than just about any other fat except pure MCT.

>A reasonable conclusion based on your earlier premise but that does not feel

>right. If my adrenals were stressed would I not be showing signs of

>fatigue? After each detox I felt more awake and had better more natural

>feeling energy.

I second what said.

> > Also, your body

> > responded to your fasts by dropping LBM and adding stubborn

> > fat, and ending

> > the fasts and working out didn't remedy the situation. This

> > tells me that

> > you've damaged your metabolism, perhaps permanently, by

> > fasting.

>

>Okay. I'm very interested in this. Can you explain what you mean by

>permanent damage?

Well... I suppose damage is a subjective characterization. In lean times,

it would be considered an adaptive change. But from the perspective of

someone who's trying to maximize fitness and energy and vigor, it's

damage. Your body has stubbornly reduced its metabolism, adjusting its

hormonal state and its receptor composition, and it's put on a layer of

stubborn fat. And so far you've been unable to overcome your body's

resistance to changing this new state of affairs. Perhaps it's not

literally permanent damage, but it certainly sounds like it'll be very

difficult to overcome, and in all likelihood your metabolism will never be

what it could've been without the fasts.

>Actually that is not true. I didn't spend a lot of time discussing them but

>I can tell you that at least 50% of the material in those pictures came out

>of my body bright, shiny green. It all faded pretty quickly in the presence

>of air. More on this in another post.

What conclusion is it that you're drawing from the green color?

>I don't understand your comment here at all. You are asserting that you

>have seen reports of bad results from people doing fasts. I'm listening

>carefully because I don't want to do anything that is harmful to my body.

>Yet this is the best you can come up with in response to my request that you

>support what you are saying?

>

>I'll repeat my question. What other things/people have you seen that leads

>you to believe that intelligent fasting and detoxifying is harmful?

I've said a whole lot, Ron. The fact that you're only seeing that one

comment suggests to me that on some level you're not really listening.

Look, IF there's some way to healthily detoxify the body, that'd be

GREAT. We're all carrying all sorts of toxic crap nowadays thanks to

pollution, and it's not likely to be good for us or even neutral. Also,

normal everyday metabolism generates some toxic byproducts, though I'd

expect a healthy system would be reasonably well-adapted to dealing with

them. But every story of extended fasting and detoxing I've ever heard

involves non-trivial loss of LBM and subsequent gain of stubborn fat. Your

story of post-fasting binges is also pretty common. This says to me that

extended fasting and purging damages the metabolism, and having a had a

crappy metabolism from before birth, I know better than most how terrible

metabolic damage is -- and how precious we should consider every little bit

of vigor that we can get.

ly, I think liposuction is likely to be a better idea on balance than

juice fasts.

-

March 21, 2005

Ron-

>I tend to not like decaf because it tastes flat to me. I am interested in

>your thoughts on how clean decaf coffee is, though. What is your source?

>Do you drink it when you are out?

Have you tried really good coffee made with a really good coffee maker, though?

-

March 21, 2005

-

>Interesting! , can you explain this more?

Sure. Subsequent to taking that asthma drug which demolished my digestion,

I started having attacks of what I called " the dreads " . Basically just a

form of panic attack, except that I didn't fall over and flop around on the

floor, I was just consumed with dread, generally of some specific thing

which would inevitably turn out not to be the case. When undigested

molecules of food (probably mainly proteins, but maybe fats are culpable

too; I don't know) pass through the intestinal wall, all sorts of bad

things happen. Various mental problems in particular are related to poor

digestion.

I tried a pancreatic enzyme supplement for entirely different reasons,

though -- I'd read that insufficient or impaired carb digestion was

sometimes responsible for asthma, and though I was already aware of the

dangers of carbs and was eating a low-carb diet, I figured I'd give it a

shot anyway. Unfortunately, the supplement didn't do a thing for my

breathing, but when I ran out, I noticed that my dreads came back and

realized that they'd been gone just about since I started taking the

enzymes in the first place. So I've taken them ever since.

The interesting thing is that the enzymes made little or no visible

difference to my digestion. It wasn't until I started taking HCl much,

much later that things firmed up and got closer to normal.

-

March 21, 2005

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I started having attacks of what I called " the

dreads " . Basically just a

form of panic attack, except that I didn't fall over and flop around on the

floor, I was just consumed with dread, generally of some specific thing

which would inevitably turn out not to be the case. When undigested

molecules of food (probably mainly proteins, but maybe fats are culpable

too; I don't know) pass through the intestinal wall, all sorts of bad

things happen. Various mental problems in particular are related to poor

digestion.

I tried a pancreatic enzyme supplement >>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Hi ,

I used to have the same condition you mention -- the dreads! --and I can't

say if it was specifically enzymes that helped (because I was also making

wholesale diet change) but at least *some* new ability to digest at least

*some* element in foods made my panicky feelings of doom go away. I also

discovered that I could focus and remember things much better. Like you, I

discovered hydrochloric acid later and agree that it has made the biggest

difference yet.

BTW my trial of Self Health HCl without Pepsin seems to be working quite

well -- at least there are no problems. Not only am I taking a capsule or

two between meals but I'll take 3 or 4 when I'm having a light snack and

just want to bump up the acid without all the pepsin activity... I can still

easily take a dozen 675mg HCl *with* pepsin capsules at meals and feel no

heartburn. In fact, since my big h. pylori infection a year ago I've not

felt a burning feeling even once. I suppose I could try to find my tolerance

some day but the thought of consuming what might be fifty capsules is a

thought too depressing to consider just now...

~Robin

March 22, 2005

Robin-

>BTW my trial of Self Health HCl without Pepsin seems to be working quite

>well -- at least there are no problems. Not only am I taking a capsule or

>two between meals but I'll take 3 or 4 when I'm having a light snack and

>just want to bump up the acid without all the pepsin activity...

This is very interesting. I was actually meaning to ask you whether you'd

used Self Health HCl with meals, because I've found that I can't tolerate

as much of it as I could of Pure Encapsulations'. In fact, I'm having a

heck of a time figuring out how much to have with different-sized meals,

particularly smaller ones, like a few egg yolks in a half pint of cream. I

used to take 6 PE capsules pretty much without thinking about meal

composition, and I'd only make minor adjustments for size.

When I take too much SH, though, I don't have generally have heartburn, but

I feel warmth in my stomach and a sort of generalized discomfort for a few

minutes. I don't want to damage my stomach, of course, but I also don't

want to not digest my food. OTOH, I've been wondering whether the lack of

pepsin in the Self Health capsules is perhaps stimulating my stomach to

start producing its own acid?

-

March 22, 2005

On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 13:30:34 -0500

Idol <Idol@...> wrote:

> -

>

> >Its the benign dietary ketosis that fasting produces that is effective,

> >at least in the case of epileptic seizures:

> >

> >http://www.stanford.edu/group/ketodiet/FAQ.html

> >

> >Keep in mind that medical ketogenic diets were " developed " with the idea

> >of finding a dietary approach that mimics the results of fasting without

> >actually having to fast.

>

> Yes (though I think ketogenic diets have a more varied history than that)

> but my point is that since the benefits accrue via either fasting OR a

> ketogenic diet, it doesn't seem to be fasting that's the cause at all, but

> the removal of sufficient carbs.

>

Hmmm...the only problem I see with that is the fasting that is done with

high carbs juices, which is how much fasting is done today.

The sinews of war, a limitless supply of money.

Cicero (106-43 B.C.), Roman orator, philosopher.

Philippics, Oration 5, sct. 5.

March 22, 2005

On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 19:09:40 -0500

Masterjohn <chrismasterjohn@...> wrote:

> On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 20:52:36 -0800, <slethnobotanist@...> wrote:

>

> > I would use Dr. Schulze's #1 and #2 to make sure you are having daily

> > bowel movements while fasting so you don't reabsorb the stuff you are

> > detoxing. And don't forget to exercise.

>

> What's the Dr. Shulze stuff?

http://www.800herbdoc.com/

The sinews of war, a limitless supply of money.

Cicero (106-43 B.C.), Roman orator, philosopher.

Philippics, Oration 5, sct. 5.

March 24, 2005

Hi ,

> >Okay. I'm very interested in this. Can you explain what you mean by

> >permanent damage?

>

> Well... I suppose damage is a subjective characterization.

> In lean times,

> it would be considered an adaptive change. But from the

> perspective of

> someone who's trying to maximize fitness and energy and vigor, it's

> damage. Your body has stubbornly reduced its metabolism,

> adjusting its

> hormonal state and its receptor composition, and it's put on

> a layer of

> stubborn fat. And so far you've been unable to overcome your body's

> resistance to changing this new state of affairs. Perhaps it's not

> literally permanent damage, but it certainly sounds like

> it'll be very

> difficult to overcome, and in all likelihood your metabolism

> will never be

> what it could've been without the fasts.

Okay. I understand what you are saying.

>

> >Actually that is not true. I didn't spend a lot of time

> discussing them but

> >I can tell you that at least 50% of the material in those

> pictures came out

> >of my body bright, shiny green. It all faded pretty quickly

> in the presence

> >of air. More on this in another post.

>

> What conclusion is it that you're drawing from the green color?

Two conclusions. One is that I never have little green balls floating in

the toilet after a normal bowel movement so there is indisputably something

very different going on and coming out of me during the liver cleanse. Two

is that it is widely reported that the bright green color indicates that

they are made of bile. Since the only place in my body that generates bile

is the liver then we can pretty well assume that that's where they are

coming from.

> >I'll repeat my question. What other things/people have you

> seen that leads

> >you to believe that intelligent fasting and detoxifying is harmful?

>

> I've said a whole lot, Ron. The fact that you're only seeing

> that one

> comment suggests to me that on some level you're not really listening.

Hmmm. I don't understand why you think that I'm only seeing this one

comment. I think I have listened very carefully to everything that you have

written in all of these posts. I also think that is pretty evident by the

fact that I've asked you lots of serious questions in an attempt to

understand what you are trying to tell me. At this point I think I do

understand you. At the moment, though, your response to this question _is_

becoming significant.

From the beginning of this thread you have pretty aggressively asserted that

based your past experience with others you think that the experiences I'm

having with fasts make a strong argument against doing them. You have

implied that my results are just the latest in a series of things that you

have seen that lead you to believe that fasts harm the body. So I asked you

to provide me with some info on the past people and data that has lead you

to this conclusion and you have yet to answer the question and are actively

mis-directing the discussion. In the short time I have been on this list I

have seen you go on at great length providing anecdotal and study evidence

to support your positions. That you aren't doing that here when I have

specifically asked you for it indicates to me that there is no past data to

be had.

You have a great theory and it seems to be pretty coherent and makes sense.

But is it true? There are thousands of pages of information out there

indicating that fasting is fantastically healthy for you if it is done

correctly. You are the first person that I'm hearing tell me that isn't

correct. Without further support for your position -- support that you have

implied that you have -- I'm finding it hard to believe that you would be

correct in the face of all of the other reported evidence.

>

> Look, IF there's some way to healthily detoxify the body, that'd be

> GREAT. We're all carrying all sorts of toxic crap nowadays thanks to

> pollution, and it's not likely to be good for us or even

> neutral. Also,

> normal everyday metabolism generates some toxic byproducts,

> though I'd

> expect a healthy system would be reasonably well-adapted to

> dealing with

> them. But every story of extended fasting and detoxing I've

> ever heard

> involves non-trivial loss of LBM and subsequent gain of

> stubborn fat. Your

> story of post-fasting binges is also pretty common.

This is what I'm talking about. What stories? I have been reading pretty

extensively for a year now and I have seen none of these reports of

significant loss of LBM in people who fast properly. The other fasters in

this thread have largely disagreed with you on this too, IIRC.

As to the stubborn fat -- there is a theory that I've encountered that makes

sense. It seems as though once you start providing the body with the food

it needs it will naturally begin to repair itself and detoxify. During that

cycle the insulin/glucagon mechanism tends to flip into fat preservation

mode until the body is largely healed at which time it reverses itself and

starts to shed extra fat. One of the explanations for this is that the

added fat is needed by the liver as a place to store the toxins that are

being released as the body repairs. Once the toxic load is sufficiently

removed from the other tissues then the body can begin to process the stored

toxins in the fat. I have no idea if this is true, but I have heard from a

nutritionist who has worked with thousands of patients that the fat

preservation/gain cycle occurs in almost all of her patients when they start

eating the foods that are correct for their body. So it would make sense

that the body would tend to preserve some fat during a fasting cycle as it

is needed for proper detox.

One of the things to keep in mind here is that my bodyfat level is pretty

close to normal. I've been hanging out around 15% for the past year.

Higher than I'd like but pretty lean by most modern standards. So my body

doesn't have much fat to lose. I'm sure that a person at 20% or higher

would preferentially lose fat during a fast because the body perceives there

to be an excess. The regulating mechanisms regarding all of this are pretty

fantastic.

> This

> says to me that

> extended fasting and purging damages the metabolism, and

> having a had a

> crappy metabolism from before birth, I know better than most

> how terrible

> metabolic damage is -- and how precious we should consider

> every little bit

> of vigor that we can get.

>

Yes. I can imagine that would be unpleasant. I have been fortunate enough

to have been very vigorous as a child. I can well remember what that felt

like and I'm trying to get back there. The interesting question, as we all

know, is what is the path that works?

> ly, I think liposuction is likely to be a better idea on

> balance than

> juice fasts.

>

Yikes.

Ron

March 24, 2005

Hi ,

> >I tend to not like decaf because it tastes flat to me. I am

> interested in

> >your thoughts on how clean decaf coffee is, though. What is

> your source?

> >Do you drink it when you are out?

>

> Have you tried really good coffee made with a really good

> coffee maker, though?

>

Yes. I have mostly given up on drip machines at home so I use a French

press. It doesn't get much cleaner than that. I think a lot of the lighter

aromatic oils that make coffee so complex and flavorful get stripped along

with the caffeine.

That being said -- a fresh cup of decaf is not intolerable. I just don't

like it all that much.

Ron

March 24, 2005

Hi ,

> Stage 1 adrenal fatigue is high levels of cortisol. Stage two is when

> you've lost the ability to make enough, and the cortisol levels are

> very low.

>

> I don't know that this is your problem, but it kinda seems like it

> fits, considering your personality and lifestyle. Schwarzbein

> explains it very well, but you're not gonna like it--sorry in advance,

> hehe. In fact, she says adrenalin junkies like, well, some people on

> this list, but I'm not naming names, (me) usually quit because they

> can't bear the insulin-building phase.

_The Schwarzbein Principle_ was the second diet book I ever read. About 8

or 9 years ago I think. I remember that I was most definitely not

interested in eating right for two years or so while my body lost weight at

its own pace. LOL Give me the Zone any day.

I hear what you are saying and I have to say that you and have put my

attention on my adrenals. That's a good thing and I suspect that there are

issues there that I need to handle. Now as to whether or not those problems

are helped are hurt by fasting -- that's another question.

Ron

March 24, 2005

Ron-

>I have mostly given up on drip machines at home so I use a French

>press. It doesn't get much cleaner than that. I think a lot of the lighter

>aromatic oils that make coffee so complex and flavorful get stripped along

>with the caffeine.

Hmm, I'm not sure how this would work with a French Press machine, but you

could try grinding the coffee a bit more finely than usual. It is true

that decaf doesn't taste as good, but it can still be made to be very

enjoyable.

-

March 24, 2005

When I used to make decaf I always made French Roast. It seemed to taste

more like " real " coffee than other decafs

Irene

At 08:34 AM 3/24/2005, you wrote:

>Ron-

>

> >I have mostly given up on drip machines at home so I use a French

> >press. It doesn't get much cleaner than that. I think a lot of the lighter

> >aromatic oils that make coffee so complex and flavorful get stripped along

> >with the caffeine.

>

>Hmm, I'm not sure how this would work with a French Press machine, but you

>could try grinding the coffee a bit more finely than usual. It is true

>that decaf doesn't taste as good, but it can still be made to be very

>enjoyable.

>

>-

>

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>

March 24, 2005

Ron-

>Two conclusions. One is that I never have little green balls floating in

>the toilet after a normal bowel movement so there is indisputably something

>very different going on and coming out of me during the liver cleanse. Two

>is that it is widely reported that the bright green color indicates that

>they are made of bile. Since the only place in my body that generates bile

>is the liver then we can pretty well assume that that's where they are

>coming from.

They most likely were made of bile, and probably the oil used for the

flush, but so what? I mean, I'm open to the possibility that flushes are

useful (I've done a couple myself) but there's abundant reason for

skepticism. The reason you don't have bright green bile in normal bowel

movements is that the bile has been released into the gut and then it's

used to digest food. So it sits there longer, but it's still coming out.

> From the beginning of this thread you have pretty aggressively asserted that

>based your past experience with others you think that the experiences I'm

>having with fasts make a strong argument against doing them. You have

>implied that my results are just the latest in a series of things that you

>have seen that lead you to believe that fasts harm the body. So I asked you

>to provide me with some info on the past people and data that has lead you

>to this conclusion and you have yet to answer the question and are actively

>mis-directing the discussion. In the short time I have been on this list I

>have seen you go on at great length providing anecdotal and study evidence

>to support your positions. That you aren't doing that here when I have

>specifically asked you for it indicates to me that there is no past data to

>be had.

There are no studies that I'm aware of on the subject. Not of the

peer-reviewed sort, anyway. There's no money in it, so I wouldn't expect

to see some any time soon. However, on this list and others I've heard

from many people who were convinced that fasting was great and profoundly

helpful but didn't associate it with problems they had later: weight gain,

lower metabolism and so on. This seems common. I've also observed it in a

smaller number of fasters I've met in meatspace.

Your experience as described here fits perfectly with my observations of

other people who've tried fasting.

More generally, if you think about it, people's metabolisms are probably

distributed (at birth, anyway) across some sort of curve, most likely a

type of bell curve. On one end you have the extreme high end, the people

who just burn everything and never get fat, and on the other there's the

extreme low end. (Unfortunately, I'm much closer to the low end than the

high end.) People's responses to dietary change also must fall across some

sort of curve, some being very responsive, others less so. Some people

seem quite responsive in one direction but not much at all in the other,

and from what I can tell, all or virtually all of those single-direction

types have an easy time depressing their metabolisms and a very hard time

boosting them. This is understandable enough in evolutionary terms. Now,

given this, in a world with billions of people it's only natural that you

can find some people who can seemingly fast over and over again for long

periods of time with little or no apparent long-term damage, though even in

their cases I'm sure there are thresholds past which they'd be

screwed. But deciding how to run your life based on the experience of a

few extreme genetic outliers is extremely unwise. It's like assuming a top

athlete must be doing everything right and deciding to imitate his training

and nutrition program right down the line, not realizing that he might

actually be so talented and robust that he can soak up the damage he's

doing whereas regular people will ruin their lives imitating him.

>This is what I'm talking about. What stories? I have been reading pretty

>extensively for a year now and I have seen none of these reports of

>significant loss of LBM in people who fast properly. The other fasters in

>this thread have largely disagreed with you on this too, IIRC.

People don't generally do a very good job of figuring out cause and effect

over long periods of time. That's why we're in the dietary mess you see

today -- because it often takes years for bad diet to have ill

effects. Also, people become emotionally invested in the perceived truth

of what they do, and this seems particularly true of the personality type

attracted to fasting, though fasting types are hardly alone in it. But

I've seen it over and over: people who fast are frequently undermuscled

types with stubborn fat and problem metabolisms. If that's what you want,

go for it. It sounds like you haven't done all that much damage to

yourself yet, but you'll get there.

>I'm sure that a person at 20% or higher

>would preferentially lose fat during a fast because the body perceives there

>to be an excess.

Are you kidding? Some people's metabolisms will in fact burn fat during

fasts because it's available fuel, but every time of perceived famine makes

the body more reluctant to burn its stored fat, to the point that many

people who've dieted a lot find it virtually impossible to spare muscle and

lose fat. This is well established. It's only the connection to fasting

itself that fewer people have made.

But hey, it's your funeral.

-

March 25, 2005

Hi ,

> However, on this list and others

> I've heard

> from many people who were convinced that fasting was great

> and profoundly

> helpful but didn't associate it with problems they had later:

> weight gain,

> lower metabolism and so on. This seems common. I've also

> observed it in a

> smaller number of fasters I've met in meatspace.

>

> Your experience as described here fits perfectly with my

> observations of

> other people who've tried fasting.

Fair enough.

>

> More generally, if you think about it, people's metabolisms

> are probably

> distributed (at birth, anyway) across some sort of curve,

> most likely a

> type of bell curve. On one end you have the extreme high

> end, the people

> who just burn everything and never get fat, and on the other

> there's the

> extreme low end. (Unfortunately, I'm much closer to the low

> end than the

> high end.) People's responses to dietary change also must

> fall across some

> sort of curve, some being very responsive, others less so.

> Some people

> seem quite responsive in one direction but not much at all in

> the other,

> and from what I can tell, all or virtually all of those

> single-direction

> types have an easy time depressing their metabolisms and a

> very hard time

> boosting them. This is understandable enough in evolutionary

> terms. Now,

> given this, in a world with billions of people it's only

> natural that you

> can find some people who can seemingly fast over and over

> again for long

> periods of time with little or no apparent long-term damage,

> though even in

> their cases I'm sure there are thresholds past which they'd be

> screwed. But deciding how to run your life based on the

> experience of a

> few extreme genetic outliers is extremely unwise. It's like

> assuming a top

> athlete must be doing everything right and deciding to

> imitate his training

> and nutrition program right down the line, not realizing that

> he might

> actually be so talented and robust that he can soak up the

> damage he's

> doing whereas regular people will ruin their lives imitating him.

Okay. Nicely described. I agree with your continuum model but I suspect

that you've skewed the curve.

> People don't generally do a very good job of figuring out

> cause and effect

> over long periods of time.

Absolutely true. That's why I'm spending so much time trying to sort this

out now before I do any damage.

> >I'm sure that a person at 20% or higher

> >would preferentially lose fat during a fast because the body

> perceives there

> >to be an excess.

>

> Are you kidding? Some people's metabolisms will in fact burn

> fat during

> fasts because it's available fuel, but every time of

> perceived famine makes

> the body more reluctant to burn its stored fat, to the point

> that many

> people who've dieted a lot find it virtually impossible to

> spare muscle and

> lose fat. This is well established. It's only the

> connection to fasting

> itself that fewer people have made.

Again, that's a reasonable interpretation. Whether it is correct or not is

the interesting part of the discussion.

>

> But hey, it's your funeral.

LOL.

Look, you have put my attention on something that I wasn't really looking at

before. That's a good thing. My choices will be better informed.

Ron

March 29, 2005

Ron-

>Okay. Nicely described. I agree with your continuum model but I suspect

>that you've skewed the curve.

Have I? Look around you. Most of the country is fat and ill to some

degree or other. If anything, I suspect I'm underestimating the problem.

I'm reminded of the case of a body builder... except I can't seem to

remember the names involved, and I don't have time to search for the

article, the URL of which I've apparently lost. Anyway, this body builder

worked out a lot and was revered in particular for the size of his

calves. (The article's author, a doctor and the owner of a Super Slow gym,

theorized that this guy was a rare instance of double muscling.) Anyway,

one day the body builder's identical twin brother showed up. The twin

never worked out in his life, but he actually had larger, more

fully-developed muscles -- particularly noticeable in his calves.

IOW, the body builder's training regimen was actually degrading his

musculature.

Yes, that's just an example, but I do think that people are doing lots of

damage to themselves in the name of health. That's hardly debatable in the

sphere of diet, after all, so why should it be so hard to believe elsewhere?

-

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