Re: Re: Detox Ideas (from concrete etc)

[Guest guest]

" It seems overloading the gut with simple sugars could potentially

aggravate any problems with fermentation in the gut. "

Bingo. I think that that is something you really ought to look into, Chris.

It sounds to me from your symptoms that you have an imbalance -- probably

weighted toward a fungal overgrowth. Personally, I'd start with a strict no

sugar no starch anti-Candida type diet. Don't bother with antifungals or any

of that other stuff. Too hard on the liver. Just try to get a well-balanced

sugar/starch free thing going. That'll be detox enough! Then reevaluate and

go from there..

Keep your body healthy and your immune system strong. Maybe now is not the

time to put it into mini starvation mode. Just my 2 pennies...

~Robin

Ps. By the way, I think I have a bunch of protein powder and other

supplements that I no longer need. I'll check and if they're still fresh

enough I'll send them along to you -- just go to waste here.. I endured just

about every kind of bacterial and fungal infection possible last year after

an bacteria-caused ulcer put a hole in my stomach and blocked my gastric

canal. Then the hospital screwed up. I spent the last year and a half going

through every kind of detox and fasting. Even went three weeks on a medical

fast (parenteral) where all the calories were supplied in the form of amino

acids so no " food " went through my digestive tract but I didn't lose weight.

I was skeletal and while I needed to detoxify the bad stuff that was killing

me I also had to keep my systems running. My experience showed my that

slow-but-sure beats out quick-fixes any day. I'm never in my life been

healthier.

[Guest guest]

Hi

> Another thing I'm wondering is how appropriate a juice fast is for a

> possible systemic infection centered in the gut or involving the gut.

>

> A juice fast sounds great for someone who's only goal is to detox

> cellular toxins, by minimizing digestion to allow for detoxing.

>

> But I'm considering the possibility that I might also have a systemic

> infection going out of whack from all the stresses placed on me

> recently, and I want to combat that *too*. So I was thinking that

> something like coconut oil, which, on the one hand, like the

> monosacharides of juice, is very easy on the digestive system, but

> unlike simple sugars, has anti-microbial properties instead of

> pro-microbial properties.

>

> It seems overloading the gut with simple sugars could potentially

> aggravate any problems with fermentation in the gut.

>

> Or am I wrong? Are juice fasts supposed to be beneficial for fighting

> off gut overgrowths, or are they just for general detoxing?

I was wanting to do a more complete write-up about this but since the

subject is out there I'll add my two incomplete cents.

I can't speak to the science or theory behind fasts but I can tell you a

little bit about what I have actually done. I have now done four 7 day

juice fasts. The first two were done using the Standard Process protocol

and involved taking a series of their (very expensive) supplements which

included a substantial amount of protein powder. I was unimpressed with the

results I got from them at the time, but looking back on it now I may have

been getting excellent results but they were more mild and easier on my

system than the results from the two harsher cleanses that I did. The 3rd

cleanse was last November and involved a protocol from a guy who is selling

a group of products on the web. http://www.7dmc.com/ . The 4th cleanse

followed the protocol outlined on the Wilderness Family Naturals site and

involved using their products along with juicing, just like the other fasts.

I included a parasite cleanse before and during this fast and a liver

cleanse after it.

Because I'm Candida sensitive I chose to do the fasts using only non-fruit

juices. The bulk of my daily juice was celery/cucumber/cabbage with other

ingredients thrown in in small quantities. This worked spectacularly well

and put my body in a very strong, stable state. It was my head that

suffered badly. I was largely in another world for the duration of all 4 of

the fasts and a few days thereafter. If you need to be mentally on top of

things and you react like I did you may have a difficult time. The juicing

part of the fast was fantastically expensive given the quantities of raw

veggies that were necessary.

On the WFN fast I was doing 7 TBSP of VCO per day. Eating it off of a

spoon. No problems and lots of physical energy.

Because I have tested my body composition with skinfold calipers every

Sunday for three years I was able to see that during the fasts my body

preserved my body fat and burned up muscle mass. Over the past year and 4

fasts I've lost about 15 pounds of LBM while keeping my absolute weight of

body fat pretty constant. That has taken me from about 10% BF to about 16%.

I have a nice soft roll around my gut that just disgusts me but I don't seem

to be able to get rid of it while I'm running these detoxes. That really

sucks, but what are you going to do? Priorities.

I included colon hydrotherapy during the last two fasts. Over the past year

I have had 12 colon hydrotherapy sessions with some of them being clumped

around and during my fasting periods.

I have done four liver cleanses over the past several months. The first two

were done on consecutive days at the end of the last 7 day juice fast. I

used the protocol in _The Amazing Liver Cleanse_ by s Moritz.

http://tinyurl.com/3vx4l After reading some horror stories on the web I

would suggest that his protocol is the only one to use if you want to

minimize your risks of creating a stuck stone and having a gall bladder

attack. I've posted a picture of the results of my cleanses in the Ron B

folder in the photo section. If you click on the image after it opens in

your browser it will enlarge to its full size.

I cannot yet report on my results from these cleanses. I'm looking for

improvement in my general health and energy and a return to mental clarity.

I have noticed some changes but have not had enough time to really think I

know what caused them or how they fit in to the spectrum of all of the

changes that I have made over the past years.

The one significant bad side effect of all 4 of the cleanses is that at some

point after each one I descended back into dietary hell. For the first two

years of my lifestyle change I was almost completely in control of my eating

habits and had almost totally excluded white flour, sugar and alcohol.

After each of the cleanses I entered a period in which I was uncontrollably

reverting back to eating foods and drink containing those ingredients. I

would then have to go through a couple weeks of torture and clean my diet

back up.

I have limited email time at the moment as my daughter is in town visiting

but I will answer any questions that any one may have. Just be a little

patient if I don't get right to it.

Ron

[Guest guest]

Ron-

>Because I'm Candida sensitive I chose to do the fasts using only non-fruit

>juices. The bulk of my daily juice was celery/cucumber/cabbage with other

>ingredients thrown in in small quantities. This worked spectacularly well

>and put my body in a very strong, stable state.

What do you mean by a " very strong, stable state " ? From your description,

it sounds like anything but. In fact, I think your experiences make a

terrific argument against cleansing and fasts, not in favor of them. In sum:

- During and for awhile after fasts you experienced severe mental side

effects (basically brain fog, I take it, though that's just a subjective

description of the symptoms)

- Your fasts and cleanses have pushed your body to dramatically reduce lean

mass while preserving fat, which suggests damage to your metabolism

- Your cleanses have without exception pushed you into binging on refined

carbs and alcohol

- You apparently haven't achieved the desired return to mental clarity and

improvements in physical health that prompted you to undertake these fasts

and cleanses in the first place

There seems to be an element of human nature that hungers for purity, but

frankly the more I read the more I think that fasts and cleanses of any

real duration are the tragically misguided results of a misapplication of

that part of our nature. My advice to you is to step back and think long

and hard about why you're really attracted to harsh purges like these.

-

[Guest guest]

> Ron-

>

>>Because I'm Candida sensitive I chose to do the fasts using only non-fruit

>>juices. The bulk of my daily juice was celery/cucumber/cabbage with other

>>ingredients thrown in in small quantities. This worked spectacularly well

>>and put my body in a very strong, stable state.

>

> What do you mean by a " very strong, stable state " ? From your description,

> it sounds like anything but. In fact, I think your experiences make a

> terrific argument against cleansing and fasts, not in favor of them. In

> sum:

>

> - During and for awhile after fasts you experienced severe mental side

> effects (basically brain fog, I take it, though that's just a subjective

> description of the symptoms)

> - Your fasts and cleanses have pushed your body to dramatically reduce

> lean

> mass while preserving fat, which suggests damage to your metabolism

> - Your cleanses have without exception pushed you into binging on refined

> carbs and alcohol

> - You apparently haven't achieved the desired return to mental clarity and

> improvements in physical health that prompted you to undertake these fasts

> and cleanses in the first place

>

> There seems to be an element of human nature that hungers for purity, but

> frankly the more I read the more I think that fasts and cleanses of any

> real duration are the tragically misguided results of a misapplication of

> that part of our nature. My advice to you is to step back and think long

> and hard about why you're really attracted to harsh purges like these.

>

>

>

> -

Ron

Haven't you said you're a strong metabolic protein type? Juice fasting would

make you more acid, speeding up metabolism. Celery ok, not cucumber or

cabbage. I do apple cider rarely with cinnamon. Even though I do a warrior

style fast during the day its all animal protein, fat, nuts, celery and

avocado.

Wanita

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[Guest guest]

>>>>>>>>>> There seems to be an element of human nature that hungers for

purity, but

frankly the more I read the more I think that fasts and cleanses of any

real duration are the tragically misguided results of a misapplication of

that part of our nature. My advice to you is to step back and think long

and hard about why you're really attracted to harsh purges like these.

- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Hear! Hear!

~Robin

[Guest guest]

I hate to say it paul, but u aren't the picture of health, so I wouldn't

knock these things until u try them.

> [Original Message]

> From: Idol <Idol@...>

> < >

> Date: 3/15/2005 12:23:44 PM

> Subject: RE: Re: Detox Ideas (from concrete etc)

>

>

> Ron-

>

> >Because I'm Candida sensitive I chose to do the fasts using only

non-fruit

> >juices. The bulk of my daily juice was celery/cucumber/cabbage with

other

> >ingredients thrown in in small quantities. This worked spectacularly

well

> >and put my body in a very strong, stable state.

>

> What do you mean by a " very strong, stable state " ? From your

description,

> it sounds like anything but. In fact, I think your experiences make a

> terrific argument against cleansing and fasts, not in favor of them. In

sum:

>

> - During and for awhile after fasts you experienced severe mental side

> effects (basically brain fog, I take it, though that's just a subjective

> description of the symptoms)

> - Your fasts and cleanses have pushed your body to dramatically reduce

lean

> mass while preserving fat, which suggests damage to your metabolism

> - Your cleanses have without exception pushed you into binging on refined

> carbs and alcohol

> - You apparently haven't achieved the desired return to mental clarity

and

> improvements in physical health that prompted you to undertake these

fasts

> and cleanses in the first place

>

> There seems to be an element of human nature that hungers for purity, but

> frankly the more I read the more I think that fasts and cleanses of any

> real duration are the tragically misguided results of a misapplication of

> that part of our nature. My advice to you is to step back and think long

> and hard about why you're really attracted to harsh purges like these.

>

>

>

> -

>

>

>

>

> <HTML><!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC " -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN "

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[Guest guest]

Robin-

>I hate to say it paul, but u aren't the picture of health, so I wouldn't

>knock these things until u try them.

Yes, that's some quality thinking. Maybe I should also try the arsenic

diet before knocking it, and the vegetable oil diet.

Or wait a minute, maybe u should employ some critical thinking instead of

relying on cheap and meaningless ad hominem rhetoric. Yeah, that's what I

think u should do.

-

[Guest guest]

More of my two cents- I know when I am doing the liver flush or the juice

fast that I really am getting rid of nasties. Liver flush I get green

stones out, and juice fast I eliminate some real foul chemical smelling

stuff. Plus I have detox symptoms like rashes.

I don't have problems with protien until the 7th or 8th day , and then I

usually have some raw meat ( IE:U.S. Wellness meats- on the internet- grass

fed beef- 25 percent fat ground beef) I have overdone it though and gotten

some small muscle tears(I was lifting weights - supposed to be a no no) - I

just ate some protein and went to bed - fine the next morning.

As far as juice, yeah in a pinch I had some odwalla, but they leave me

hungry. I purchase 25 lb bag of carrots from Wild Oats in Andover- their

price 19 dollars- Medford store was charging 30. Its just that the real

juice you make is satisfying nutritionally to the body, so you dont need as

much. The " Dead " pasteurized juice screws with your blood sugar. I usually

do apples and carrot juice or carrot- apple, etc.You could do celery as

well. I bought 8 oz. ball canning jars and fill them up to the rim. I have

one of those everytime I get hungry.(I wouldn't have more if u are

concerned about blood sugar) I used to go through 64 ozs of juicce a day,

but my body has gotten more efficient, and I make about 48 0z for the day.

It takes me 6 days to go through the carrots with mixed half and half with

one other juice.

I cant stress how important it is to get your liver/gallbladder cleaned out

before you start this process. It can make the difference between

mobilizing nasties into your bloodstream and mobilizing them out of your

body.

When u start feeding on protien again your body snaps right back. But be

careful- you may need less food now- your body has become more efficient.

Now I have been practicing the Warrior diet Idea - when I am eating- Now I

have to eat less . I usually have a raw egg, raw milk, unheated honey

smoothie at lunch - that I premade at home (more ball Jars) - and then I

have a semi- big dinner. Now my body is actually starting to do some

detoxing on its own with these large expanses of time in between eating. I

know this, because I have this rash on my boob that appeared when I started

juice fasting- When I stop J. F. the rash sort of fades in color to a

beige- when I am actively detoxing the rash lights up like a christmas

tree- red/pink. Plus My body odor gets strong. So I have noticed on the

warrior diet style eating plan my boob rash has been " lighting up " to this

red/pink. I dont think my body was capable of this before the numerous

juice fasts. But it seems like my body is becoming " unbogged down " and

maybe soon it will totally catch up with its detoxification- duties. But I

have really lightened its toxic load as well with the addition of the all

raw diet, use lemon juice in my hair, etc.

> [Original Message]

> From: Robin Plourde <rlplourde@...>

> < >

> Date: 3/15/2005 5:30:25 PM

> Subject: RE: Re: Detox Ideas (from concrete etc)

>

>

> I hate to say it paul, but u aren't the picture of health, so I wouldn't

> knock these things until u try them.

>

>

> > [Original Message]

> > From: Idol <Idol@...>

> > < >

> > Date: 3/15/2005 12:23:44 PM

> > Subject: RE: Re: Detox Ideas (from concrete etc)

> >

> >

> > Ron-

> >

> > >Because I'm Candida sensitive I chose to do the fasts using only

> non-fruit

> > >juices. The bulk of my daily juice was celery/cucumber/cabbage with

> other

> > >ingredients thrown in in small quantities. This worked spectacularly

> well

> > >and put my body in a very strong, stable state.

> >

> > What do you mean by a " very strong, stable state " ? From your

> description,

> > it sounds like anything but. In fact, I think your experiences make a

> > terrific argument against cleansing and fasts, not in favor of them. In

> sum:

> >

> > - During and for awhile after fasts you experienced severe mental side

> > effects (basically brain fog, I take it, though that's just a

subjective

> > description of the symptoms)

> > - Your fasts and cleanses have pushed your body to dramatically reduce

> lean

> > mass while preserving fat, which suggests damage to your metabolism

> > - Your cleanses have without exception pushed you into binging on

refined

> > carbs and alcohol

> > - You apparently haven't achieved the desired return to mental clarity

> and

> > improvements in physical health that prompted you to undertake these

> fasts

> > and cleanses in the first place

> >

> > There seems to be an element of human nature that hungers for purity,

but

> > frankly the more I read the more I think that fasts and cleanses of any

> > real duration are the tragically misguided results of a misapplication

of

> > that part of our nature. My advice to you is to step back and think

long

> > and hard about why you're really attracted to harsh purges like these.

> >

> >

> >

> > -

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > <HTML><!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC " -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN "

> " http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd " ><BODY><FONT

> FACE= " monospace " SIZE= " 3 " >

> > <B>IMPORTANT ADDRESSES</B>

> > <UL>

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> HREF= " / " >NATIVE

> NUTRITION</A></B> online</LI>

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> archive with Onibasu</LI>

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> HREF= " mailto: -owner " >LIST OWNER:</A></B>

> Idol

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> > Wanita Sears

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> >

[Guest guest]

One thing I don't understand with all these sorts of " Fasts " is the reliance

on almost purely isolated sugars. I have no idea but is it possible that

some of these " results of detox " are the body's response to glycemic

overload? Just curious why a water fast is rarely mentioned. It's certainly

cheap and to the point.

Also, if one's body isn't in an ideal state of balance, wouldn't putting

additional stress on it, even for the purpose of cleansing, be inclined to

put it even more out of balance? I've done Fasts out of last ditch

desperation and for a distinct last resort purpose, but have never followed

the reasoning that a drastic change of diet will automatically put a body

right.

~Robin

[Guest guest]

People have been fasting for thousands of years whether enforced by will or

by nature. But a water fast can be difficult in todays society where

everyone has to to work, especially if you have a physical job. The

weakness an tiredness that may ensue might cause an accident. I have done

one day fasts and they are cheap and work! On the second day though I

suddenly felt weak as a kitten at work, and I cant do that there. Maybe I

just needed to wait it out, but I am required to heft 50 lb. machines at

work. Cant get suddenly weak and drop a 100,000 dollar piece of machinery

on my foot.

People have different experiences, but my body is an experiment ground,

and I have been trying to find the most simple, effective , and cheap ways

to heal for quite awhile. I have been successful- I am now going to be able

to go away to the woods for a year to live. Before I couldn't even get near

a campfire without my lungs seizing up immediately.

> [Original Message]

> From: Robin Reese <robin.reese@...>

> < >

> Date: 3/15/2005 6:50:17 PM

> Subject: RE: Re: Detox Ideas (from concrete etc)

>

>

> One thing I don't understand with all these sorts of " Fasts " is the

reliance

> on almost purely isolated sugars. I have no idea but is it possible that

> some of these " results of detox " are the body's response to glycemic

> overload? Just curious why a water fast is rarely mentioned. It's

certainly

> cheap and to the point.

>

> Also, if one's body isn't in an ideal state of balance, wouldn't putting

> additional stress on it, even for the purpose of cleansing, be inclined to

> put it even more out of balance? I've done Fasts out of last ditch

> desperation and for a distinct last resort purpose, but have never

followed

> the reasoning that a drastic change of diet will automatically put a body

> right.

>

> ~Robin

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

He means Cardio - I do Cardio gets lymph circulating- sort of important ,

but I forgot to mention. I do as much as I can , but again , don't push it.

Some days you feel great, others, tired.

> [Original Message]

> From: Masterjohn <chrismasterjohn@...>

> < >

> Date: 3/15/2005 7:10:04 PM

> Subject: Re: Detox Ideas (from concrete etc)

>

>

> On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 20:52:36 -0800, <slethnobotanist@...>

wrote:

>

> > I would use Dr. Schulze's #1 and #2 to make sure you are having daily

> > bowel movements while fasting so you don't reabsorb the stuff you are

> > detoxing. And don't forget to exercise.

>

> What's the Dr. Shulze stuff?

>

> What kind of exercise? I was assuming I should NOT lift weights,

> since my body would have to put energy into repairing muscle rather

> than detoxing... right?

>

> Chris

>

>

>

> <HTML><!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC " -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN "

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> <LI><B><A

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Idol

> <B>MODERATORS:</B> Heidi Schuppenhauer

> Wanita Sears

> </FONT></PRE>

> </BODY>

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>

[Guest guest]

>What's the Dr. Shulze stuff?

>

>What kind of exercise? I was assuming I should NOT lift weights,

>since my body would have to put energy into repairing muscle rather

>than detoxing... right?

>

>Chris

>

This detoxing idea gets thrown around much in health circles. Anecdotes

run high, but where is evidence of the healing benefits of fasting? I

don't doubt that fasting is great. I would like to see more than hype,

though. It is an age old practice. Certainly someone has studied the

constituents of input and excrement at least, especially with all the

fasting clinics around.

Can anyone offer more along these lines? Water fasting in particular

interests me. What are the outcomes when measured?

merci,

Deanna

[Guest guest]

On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 15:50:04 -0800

" Robin Reese " <robin.reese@...> wrote:

> One thing I don't understand with all these sorts of " Fasts " is the reliance

> on almost purely isolated sugars. I have no idea but is it possible that

> some of these " results of detox " are the body's response to glycemic

> overload? Just curious why a water fast is rarely mentioned. It's certainly

> cheap and to the point.

It is cheap. Its also tough, and I don't necessarily mean physically

tough, but psychologically so. It is also much more aggressive in terms

of detox than juice fasting.

The first time I did a water fast I just wanted to put something sweet

on my tongue just to get rid of the nasty taste in my mouth. I was also

quite uncomfortable physically and did not enjoy it in any way shape or

form. That was many many years ago.

Just recently I did an eight day water fast using water and coconut

water. I did not do it for any physical reason but for spiritual

purposes. It was tough but I don't recall after the first day ever being

really hungry, and if hunger did come usually a mug of water would do

away with it. But nonetheless I still wanted to eat and enjoy the taste

of food even though I wasn't hungry.

When you abstain from food and drink only water there are a number of

things going on that really have nothing to do with food, and you will

come face to face with things like addictions, etc. and just how greatly

dependent we are on food for things other than physical sustenance.

Generally the modern advice is that those who want to water fast should

do so *only* for spiritual purposes.

On the other hand, the old time liquid fasters, especially the natural

hygienists, believed only in water fasting. And complete rest (except for

some light exercise). And no laxatives. And they got results too judging

by the literature. But their approach has largely been supplanted by the

juice fasters, which works as well and is much easier to do.

And juice fasting has evolved as well, with not nearly the reliance on

sweet vegetables (like carrots and beets) but more emphasis on green

juices, superfoods, herb teas, and even added fats. Fruit juice fasting

has never really been a good idea although even it can be beneficial.

> Also, if one's body isn't in an ideal state of balance, wouldn't putting

> additional stress on it, even for the purpose of cleansing, be inclined to

> put it even more out of balance? I've done Fasts out of last ditch

> desperation and for a distinct last resort purpose, but have never followed

> the reasoning that a drastic change of diet will automatically put a body

> right.

From a purely physical perspective, the point of fasting is to allow

your body to heal itself, without the " burden " of having to cope with

digestion, thus allowing it to direct more energy to healing and

elimination. In that sense fasting is a relief of stress rather than an

additional stress.

By the way, there is one great advantage to water fasting that, IMO, has

gotten lost in today's world of " fasts " " cleanses " and " detox " diets.

Water fasting draws attention to the fact that it is the body, freed by

not having to process the daily intake of food, that heals or at least

accelerates the healing process, and *not* the intake of all the various

juices, oils, whathaveyou, which at best, only assist in the process.

" I feel sorry for all those health food

people. Someday, they will be lying in a hospital bed,

dying of nothing. "

Redd Foxx

=================================================

" This is what the king who will reign over you will do:

He will take... He will take... He will take... He will take...

... he will take... He will take... "

(I 8:11-17)

=================================================

[Guest guest]

On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 18:44:56 -0600

Deanna <hl@...> wrote:

> This detoxing idea gets thrown around much in health circles. Anecdotes

> run high, but where is evidence of the healing benefits of fasting? I

> don't doubt that fasting is great. I would like to see more than hype,

> though. It is an age old practice. Certainly someone has studied the

> constituents of input and excrement at least, especially with all the

> fasting clinics around.

Not much on this side of the pond. Mention fasting and you will hear

things like " starvation " " wasting away " " degenerating " etc. North

American society in general is terrified of fasting, despite evidence

that demonstrates its benefits.

The following should give you some leads to google for more info. When I

get back from church tonight I will post some info from a couple of

medical journals about how the body spares muscle protein when fasting.

I may even have some stuff from the late Dr. Buchinger, who was famous

for the therapeutic use of liquid fasting.

" Among those M.D.s who do have knowledge, Drs. J. Kellberg and P.

Reizenstein of the world-renowned Karolinska Institute in

Stockholm--which actually awards the Nobel Prize in Medicine each

year--clinically monitored in-hospital patients (not well-beings such as

you and me) in fasting studies lasting up to 55 days, demonstrating that

scientific, prolonged fasting's not only perfectly safe for most, but

also therapeutically beneficial, as well. There are countless hundreds

of fasting clinics and centers in nations throughout Europe, where

therapeutic juice-fasting has long been used as the premier weight-loss,

detoxification, and healing modality over the entire 20th Century,

continuing here into the 21st.

" German and Swedish biological clinics, operated by medical doctors,

routinely treat nearly every disease, from cardiovascular and digestive

disorders to rheumatic and skin conditions, with scientific, therapeutic

fasting. Germany's late Otto Buchinger, Sr., M.D., supervised over

100,000 successful juice-fasting " cures. " In Russia, fasting has been

used for over a half-century as the most effective treatment for

schizophrenia, with irrefragable studies showing that 70% of patients

improved mentally after 20-to-30 days of controlled fasting. Similarly,

one Japanese research clinic fasted 382 patients, all suffering

psychosomatic disease, with a success rate of 87%.

" North America is still far behind the learning curve, nevertheless, as

is

clear to Dr. Goodrich of the Mt. Sinai School of Medicine in New

York City, who has fasted countless times: " People don't realize that

the chief obstacle to fasting is overcoming the cultural, social and

psychological fears of going without food. These fears are ingrained. . .

..However, fasting is not starving, not even in a medical sense or the

natural sense. " Dr. Cahill of Harvard Medical School emphasized

the point: " Man's survival [of long abstentions from food] is predicated

upon a remarkable ability to conserve the relatively limited body

protein stores, while utilizing fat as the primary energy producing food. "

" Nobel Prize-winnning Fr. biologist and surgeon Dr. is Carrel, who

spent 34 of his professional years in the United States, described in

his magnum opus, Man, The Unknown, the body's brilliant rejuvenative and

regenerative capability, inherent in its own detoxification process vis

a vis scientific fasting: " Privation of food at first brings a sensation

of hunger, occasionally some nervous stimulation, but it also determines

certain hidden phenomena which are more important. The sugar of the

liver and the fat of the subcutaneous deposits are mobilized, and also

the proteins of the muscles and the glands. . .in order to maintain

blood, heart, and brain in a normal condition. Fasting purifies and

profoundly modifies our tissues. "

" I feel sorry for all those health food

people. Someday, they will be lying in a hospital bed,

dying of nothing. "

Redd Foxx

=================================================

" This is what the king who will reign over you will do:

He will take... He will take... He will take... He will take...

... he will take... He will take... "

(I 8:11-17)

=================================================

[Guest guest]

>Not much on this side of the pond. Mention fasting and you will hear

>things like " starvation " " wasting away " " degenerating " etc. North

>American society in general is terrified of fasting, despite evidence

>that demonstrates its benefits.

>

>The following should give you some leads to google for more info. When I

>get back from church tonight I will post some info from a couple of

>medical journals about how the body spares muscle protein when fasting.

>I may even have some stuff from the late Dr. Buchinger, who was famous

>for the therapeutic use of liquid fasting.

>

><snippy the great quotes>

>

Bless you, , that is exactly what I was looking for. I will look

forward to more on this soon and will write back.

Thanks,

Deanna

[Guest guest]

Is that VCO mixed with lemon or limeade? Or do you alternate them?

, would you be able to send it to me too, please?

Thanks, Deb

-----Original Message-----

From: Masterjohn [mailto:chrismasterjohn@...]

On the upside, sent me Fife's VCO fast which seems exactly the

type of thing I was looking to carry out and look forward to doing

when I get my QFI in. This seems superior to a juice fast to me.

I'll be sure to report on the results. In essence it is 10-14 tbsp

VCO per day with fresh unsweetened lemonade or limeade for seven days.

Chris

[Guest guest]

On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 23:05:23 -0500

Masterjohn <chrismasterjohn@...> wrote:

> On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 16:48:01 -0800, <slethnobotanist@...> wrote:

>

> > And juice fasting has evolved as well, with not nearly the reliance on

> > sweet vegetables (like carrots and beets) but more emphasis on green

> > juices, superfoods, herb teas, and even added fats. Fruit juice fasting

> > has never really been a good idea although even it can be beneficial.

>

> The two problems I have with this approach is that without carrots or

> other sources of sugar, the juice simply can't provide enough energy

> to make it through the day for me, and that this is outrageously

> expensive.

I didn't mention anything about going without carrots, only that juice

fasting and juicing in general in some circles has moved away from the

absolute reliance on carrot juice that is the foundation of much of what

you read about juicing. It is thought by some that 30% should be the

maximum amount of carrot juice used although I don't know how accurate

that is.

In my early days of juice fasting I drank tons of carrot juice because

I liked it and because that was considered the mainstay juice vegetable.

And another reason was that carrots could be bought in bulk for much

cheaper than any other palatable fruit or vegetable.

As far as the energy goes, if you are looking to get that from the juice,

it is quite easy to add honey to green juice and achieve the same effect.

The Master Cleanse, which is a popular fast, consists of water, lemon

juice, and maple syrup. Most of my family, who would not be considered

WAPers by any stretch of the imagination, have done the cleanse and

reported good results with it.

> I tried juice fasting for one day and put about $15 of

> food including berries and carrots into a juicer and wound up with

> about 30 oz of juice which lasted me till lunch time at work because I

> was able to stretch it out.

Well I can buy a 25 pound bag of carrots around here for $15, and it

will make a lot more than 30 ounces of juice, even with the poorest of

juicers, LOL. But once you get beyond carrots a juice fast can get

spendy, as I mentioned in a previous post.

Btw, you will find your energy levels higher, even on a water fast, if

you drink at least a gallon of liquids a day from all sources (water,

juice, teas, etc.).

> I also have decided to not touch any mixed superfood green powders or

> drinks with a ten-foot pole. While I've had spirulina mixed into

> smoothies many times in the past with no problem, I believe I'm

> allergic to cereal grass juices, which are usually mixed in with the

> algae in drink mixes or drinks.

The only superfood powder I have ever used is Dr. Schulze's Superfood. I

have never had any problem with it. I have visited his warehouse and

know how he makes his stuff and at one point even knew his sources. Dr.

Schulze is so fanatical (and I say this in a kind way) that he has even

figured out how many turns of the mixing drum you can make before heat

starts to build up (and destroying the nutrients by his reckoning). I

think its one and half, LOL.

> I drank a shot of wheat grass juice a couple years ago which made my

> mouth very itchy so I didn't finish it.

Probably low brix :-)

> A couple weeks ago, I bought

> Odwalla's Superfood drink, which had wheat grass and barley grass

> juices in it, as well as spirulina and chlorella.

You couldn't pay me to drink anything by Odwalla.

> I tried some at

> night and felt some minor breathing discomfort. I drank another glass

> and went to bed. I woke up in the middle of the night in a sudden fit

> of panic pacing around in the darkness trying to recover my breath,

> which was proving elusive. I laid in bed scared to fall asleep

> because I felt like I'd stop breathing in my sleep or the same thing

> would happen again. Tiredness overcame me however and trumped my

> concerns. Like an *idiot* I drank more of this juice the next day!

> For some reason I wasn't sure whether it was the drink or not. I had

> problems breathing all day. I decided when I got home from work it

> wasn't worth the risk of drinking more and my breathing problems

> subsided and were basically gone the next day.

Yup, sounds like something to be avoided.

> So... I'll pass on green superfoods.

>

> On the upside, sent me Fife's VCO fast which seems exactly the

> type of thing I was looking to carry out and look forward to doing

> when I get my QFI in. This seems superior to a juice fast to me.

> I'll be sure to report on the results. In essence it is 10-14 tbsp

> VCO per day with fresh unsweetened lemonade or limeade for seven days.

Well this should be interesting. At first glance I would say this could

be a struggle in terms of detox given the properties of coconut oil and

the low sugar content of lemons. I will be looking forward to hearing

your report back on how it went.

Personally, if I was going to drink that much oil I think it would be a

lot more fun drinking the coconut milk for oil instead.

Hmmm...I wonder what a fast of coconut water and coconut oil might be

like?

" I feel sorry for all those health food

people. Someday, they will be lying in a hospital bed,

dying of nothing. "

Redd Foxx

=================================================

" This is what the king who will reign over you will do:

He will take... He will take... He will take... He will take...

... he will take... He will take... "

(I 8:11-17)

=================================================

[Guest guest]

>>>>>>>>>> On the other hand, the old time liquid fasters, especially the

natural

hygienists, believed only in water fasting. And complete rest >>>>>>>

I agree. I used to fast for spiritual reasons years ago when I was quite

healthy (and could get the time!) I'd do 5 days of juices then 5 days of

water and then 5 days of juice. I'd take a tablespoon of olive oil each day

of the water fast. I'd rest the entire time and be VERY careful about coming

off the Fast. I think that Fasts, when done with rest and meditation are

incredibly spiritual and excellent healing tools, but I don't think I would

do one for an illness or condition I didn't understand unless it was under

medical supervision and/or a last resort. I would certainly not eat a lot of

sugary juices.

>>>>>>>>>> From a purely physical perspective, the point of fasting is to

allow

your body to heal itself, without the " burden " of having to cope with

digestion, thus allowing it to direct more energy to healing and

elimination. In that sense fasting is a relief of stress rather than an

additional stress. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

It's probably a relief for the digestive system but the body, I think, has

to go through some pretty intense steps before getting to that relief mode.

That's why I think you need to be careful if you're not 100% healthy and

that's why I get nervous when I hear people talk about simultaneously

engaging in weight lifting or some sort of detox concoction. It's very

important to rest, and be respectful and focus the energy on healing.

>>>>>>>>> Water fasting draws attention to the fact that it is the body,

freed by

not having to process the daily intake of food, that heals or at least

accelerates the healing process, and *not* the intake of all the various

juices, oils, whathaveyou, which at best, only assist in the process.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Exactly.

~Robin

[Guest guest]

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I bought

Odwalla's Superfood drink, which had wheat grass and barley grass

juices in it, as well as spirulina and chlorella. I tried some at

night and felt some minor breathing discomfort. I drank another glass

and went to bed. I woke up in the middle of the night in a sudden fit

of panic pacing around in the darkness trying to recover my breath,

which was proving elusive. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

It's so funny that you would say this, Chris. I don't know if it's exactly

the same juice, but just today a friend of mine told me she had a similar

reaction to an Odwalla Superfood juice. She was violently sick for hours. In

her case it was because the drink had Kiwi in it and she's deathly allergic

to Kiwi. It's so rare to find Kiwi in things that she didn't bother to check

-- just figured that since it was green it must good. Maybe you too have a

kiwi allergy?!

~Robin

[Guest guest]

> Re: Detox Ideas (from concrete etc)

>

>

Like an *idiot* I drank more of this juice the next day!

>For some reason I wasn't sure whether it was the drink or not. I had

>problems breathing all day. I decided when I got home from work it

>wasn't worth the risk of drinking more and my breathing problems

>subsided and were basically gone the next day.

Yikes! Sounds scary :-(

>

>On the upside, sent me Fife's VCO fast which seems exactly the

>type of thing I was looking to carry out and look forward to doing

>when I get my QFI in. This seems superior to a juice fast to me.

>I'll be sure to report on the results. In essence it is 10-14 tbsp

>VCO per day with fresh unsweetened lemonade or limeade for seven days.

Hey , any chance you could post that protocol to the list? I'd be

interested in perhaps trying it at some point. As an aside, the lemon juice

fits in with Reams' lemon water fasting, it sounds like.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

[Guest guest]

Robin-

>People have been fasting for thousands of years whether enforced by will or

>by nature.

And this means it must be a good thing?

-

[Guest guest]

-

>Just recently I did an eight day water fast using water and coconut

>water. I did not do it for any physical reason but for spiritual

>purposes.

If this is a spiritual issue, please disregard this post, but why would you

consider a coconut water fast a water fast? Despite the name, coconut

water is effectively a fruit juice.

-

[Guest guest]

-

>In Russia, fasting has been

>used for over a half-century as the most effective treatment for

>schizophrenia, with irrefragable studies showing that 70% of patients

>improved mentally after 20-to-30 days of controlled fasting.

As low-carb ketogenic diets seem to be effective for schizophrenia, this is

unsurprising, but it therefore wouldn't seem to be the fasting per se

that's helpful.

> Similarly,

>one Japanese research clinic fasted 382 patients, all suffering

>psychosomatic disease, with a success rate of 87%.

Psychosomatic disease? That could mean anything, including just about any

real disease.

-

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

In going back and re-reading my post I realized that I did not really

present much, if any, of the positive effect of what I'm experiencing during

this detoxing phase. That is, in part, because I'm very hesitant to make

declarative statements of results until I feel confident that I know what

has caused them. So I tend to err on the side of caution and that made my

post sound much more negative than my experiences have actually been. I'm

too new to this process to really have a grip on what is happening to me.

That being said -- I have definitely noticed improvements in my perception

of my health and a general increase in my well being between bouts of

cleanses.

More below.

> >Because I'm Candida sensitive I chose to do the fasts using

> only non-fruit

> >juices. The bulk of my daily juice was

> celery/cucumber/cabbage with other

> >ingredients thrown in in small quantities. This worked

> spectacularly well

> >and put my body in a very strong, stable state.

>

> What do you mean by a " very strong, stable state " ? From your

> description,

> it sounds like anything but.

I was not clear in my post.

During each of the four fasts I experienced two separate things. The first

element was the feeling in my body. The second was the feeling in my head

or my level of conscious awareness. My head was a wreck during each of the

four fasts. Brain fog to the point of unawareness sometimes. Cognitive

dysfunction. Inability to generate memories. General absence from present

time.

My body, on the other hand, had a completely different experience on the

last two fasts. I'm going to try to explain this as best I can as it's a

little bit hard to describe and is particularly unscientific. I don't

recall having this experience on the first two Standard Process fasts. It

only happened on the last two more " pure " juice fasts. After about two days

of adjustment my body became clear, strong and stable. Up until I had that

experience on the first fast I did not realize just how muddy, weak and

unstable my body generally has been for the past 20 years or so.

I can best describe the effect by saying that my energy field is constantly

in a state of disruption. I hate to use that term because I'm not really

sure what it means, but it accurately describes my subjective feeling of my

body. At any given moment there is a feeling somewhere around me of slight

discomfort or some kind of a " mis-fit " of part of my body as compared to the

parts next to it. I tend to mostly feel this in around my heart and my gut.

The feeling around my heart is a kind of flutteryness that is sometimes

punctuated with actual skipped beats or arrhythmias. 10 years ago I started

having panic attacks that I experienced as heart attack symptoms

(tachycardia, arrhythmias). Even though I have gotten them under control

through diet and mental processes I still sense the " field " around my heart.

This is pretty lame description, but it's the best I can do. On both juice

fasts ALL of these symptoms went completely away. My body felt coherent and

aligned and stable.

This all came as a real shock to me because prior to the fasts I was

terrified of going on a carb only regimen. I've had blood sugar issues for

years and I figured that drinking only pure sugar in the form of vegetable

juice would just make it worse. I was half expecting my arrhythmias to

return in full force. That I had the opposite result is still an element of

wonder for me and is calling into question everything that I thought I knew

about nutrition and the food that I am actually eating.

> In fact, I think your

> experiences make a

> terrific argument against cleansing and fasts, not in favor

> of them. In sum:

>

> - During and for awhile after fasts you experienced severe

> mental side

> effects (basically brain fog, I take it, though that's just a

> subjective

> description of the symptoms)

Correct, although it was actually worse than brain fog. On the other hand,

after each cleanse I noticed that I am getting more clear. I'm still at

about what I consider 40% capacity, though.

> - Your fasts and cleanses have pushed your body to

> dramatically reduce lean

> mass while preserving fat, which suggests damage to your metabolism

How so? I'm interested in your thought process here.

In my post to I suggested one possibility for the LBM loss. Even

though my body looks unspeakably weak and wimpy at the moment, that is only

by our hysterically distorted America, 2005 standards. Most people look at

me and perceive that I am very fit. So a 15 pound loss of muscle may well

have been correct and a corrective action by my body given where I started.

> - Your cleanses have without exception pushed you into

> binging on refined

> carbs and alcohol

Yes. That is a bad effect. The funny thing is that each time I had a

different experience of how that happened.

The first time both my wife and I did the SP 10 day fast. Two days after

the fast we found ourselves at our favorite primo, natural BBQ place down

the road inhaling full slabs of ribs and macaroni and cheese. LOL.

The second time I did the SP fast alone and vowed I wasn't going to cave in

afterwards. The way in this time was, of all things, coffee. I have a

weird experience of coffee, alcohol and food -- they are all interlinked in

my brain wiring somehow. I started drinking a coffee each morning and the

next thing you know I'm chowing on scones and doing a quart of Starbucks a

day.

The third time it was wine. A glass of red with dinner turned into freaking

scones again.

This last time I managed to hold out until my nurse, post surgery, insisted

that I MUST eat some good white flour products when I take my narcotics or

I'll get sick. There were NO other foods that would have the desired

effect. So of course, WHAT COULD I DO? My nurse knew what she was talking

about, right? So, in my happily drugged state, I popped back into carb

overload. Yeesh.

The good news is that even though I've eaten foods that we all agree are not

optimum I've managed to make sure that they are all clean, mostly chemical

free foods. No Twinkies and Little Debbies here. We have found some

restaurants that make relatively additive free foods. Some of what I've

done during these out of control cycles is cook foods that I used to eat as

a kid using clean sources. I make the best raw cream/raw sugar/raw egg ice

cream. Yum. So the toxic load has been minimized even though there have

certainly been negative metabolic effects.

So what is driving this? I'm not sure but I have a few ideas. Some of them

a little too wacky to put out there in polite company. In the end, though,

it is my belief that the trick is for me to get myself under control and get

over whatever hump there may be in my recovery period post-cleanse while

keeping my nutrition on track rather than choosing not to cleanse.

> - You apparently haven't achieved the desired return to

> mental clarity and

> improvements in physical health that prompted you to

> undertake these fasts

> and cleanses in the first place

No, I have not achieved the return. But I am noticing improvement. And

it's been a very long time since I can recall actually feeling strong and

healthy mentally and in my body. Probably 30 plus years. I don't think I'm

going to make the change overnight.

There was a signature moment in this process that I did not mention in my

original post. I finished the last 7 day fast and first two liver cleanses

on a Saturday in January. On Sunday I added some soft foods back into my

diet. On Monday morning I woke up completely clear. My body was clear, my

head was clear, my memory worked, I felt good about myself but not

artificially so, I was confident that I had the ability to do the things

that I wanted, I liked people -- even the nasty ones who challenge all of my

cherished thoughts, and I knew that I was on the right path. This state

lasted all day and through half of Tuesday when I could actually feel the

clouds begin to roll back in.

>

> There seems to be an element of human nature that hungers for

> purity,

This is very valid issue and one that I'm very attentive to. I agree with

you.

I spend a lot of my time monitoring myself to see if I've slipped over the

edge into behavior that is no longer about fixing my health and into dealing

with issues of control -- which is where I think this desire for purity

comes from.

One of the models of behavior that I use and have really tried to avoid

becoming is what I call the " yoga dude " . It first started off as a joke

between my wife and myself when I was trying to recover the muscle mass I

lost from my rapid weight loss, but came to represent many other things to

me. I'm much more interested in being here and now and capable in this

particular world rather than spending my time trying to escape it by

meditating and veganating my way out of existence. I have no interest in

purity per se as I like the things this world has to offer. I'm looking for

enhanced function, not purity for the sake of purity, although I can see the

lure it has to many people. There is a great deal of satisfaction that

comes from controlling your food intake for 7 or 10 days. It can be

addictive. I'm trying very carefully to make sure that I don't slip over

that slippery edge.

And I love the technology of Yoga, btw. I just find the religion of Yoga to

be unattractive. So I go to yoga class and happily do my poses while

smiling with both respect and bemusement at my teacher who is fully immersed

in yoga as the be-all and end-all of existence.

So, the purpose of my cleanses and detoxes are to remove all of the

accumulated garbage that I have picked up that has not spontaneously gone

from eating clean for 3 years. How can you argue with the results that you

see in the picture I posted to the photo section? Would I be better off

having all of that garbage in my liver and gallbladder? Is all of that

garbage " normal " ? If clean eating alone would cure the problem then why was

it all still there after two years of organic nutrition?

> but

> frankly the more I read the more I think that fasts and

> cleanses of any

> real duration are the tragically misguided results of a

> misapplication of

> that part of our nature.

I would be very interested in reading some of the things that have lead you

to this conclusion. I have seen very few reports of bad results from

fasting. I am not only open to this, I'm actively interested in seeing it.

Any links you have would be great.

> My advice to you is to step back

> and think long

> and hard about why you're really attracted to harsh purges like these.

>

Yes, good advice and I thank you for prompting me to do so. The truth is

that I'm flying without a net here. As are we all. For every person who

recommends one thing there are those who recommend the complete opposite.

Deciding what to do to help yourself is very much an act of faith even

though that act can be based on the best available choices after lots of

reading and research. Re-evaluating what you are doing should be a daily

thing although I would argue, based on long experience, once you start a

course of action you really need to finish it to understand what it actually

does.

Ron

[Guest guest]

A strange coincidence... this morning I woke up with the flu so I cancelled

everything and have been able to sleep almost 12 hours so far. Since I have

absolutely NO interest in eating it reminded me that animals Fast and sleep

when they are sick. From my point of view at this moment it seems a very

reasonable thing to do. I have some bone broth thawing and I drank a half

cup of kombucha tea - -it tasted a bit strong but the bubbles felt nice... I

seriously doubt I could keep down any complicated food right now -- I can

only imagine warm grounding liquids.... The most solid food I even can

imagine eating would be a baked apple but sounds too sweet and I'm not

interested. Warm slightly salty water sounds nice..

So I probably need to retract some of what I said earlier about fasting to

cure illness. I think I said it was a " last ditch " measure and I'm not sure

what that means right now .. I'm going back to bed! (I'd forgotten what it

was like to have a gnarly mainstream illness -- it's been ages!)

~Robin