Guest guest Posted February 26, 2005 Report Share Posted February 26, 2005 In a message dated 2/26/2005 8:18:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, rbjr@... writes: Let me just ask you this. Where there no people of quality in your town? Did their belief in the fact that slavery should still exist preclude them from being decent people? _____ Well I have to admit here that I was using a gross oversimplification as a representation of the racism common in these parts. It was actually one person who told me this, who was an ex-crack dealer who blamed his problems with crack on the government for not punishing him with enough magnitude, and thought the crack possession and sale should be punished with life in prison. I didn't know him very well. You are right, though, that people can hold abhorrent views on the one hand and be great people, in an interactive sense, on the other. I guess that's a conflict I feel like running away from. Trait a indicates person x = good person; trait b indicates person x = bad person. Bad person = good person, contradiction. System failure. [smoke exits ears] Well I told this guy in my shop yesterday that his views on race were disgusting and morally reprehensible, but I don't take it personally. We get along quite fine and he's a nice guy. He accurately describes himself as cold-hearted, but he treats the people he personally interacts with very well. ____ My experience, and a good portion of it was generated during my time in heavy construction, is that there are people of quality in every economic strata just as there bad people in every economic strata. Because you live in your head and you have very elaborate models of how the world should work you are having difficulty locating that which is good in others because their particular belief systems conflict with yours. I've found that our beliefs are just how we explain the world that we see. Our quality seems to be independent of our beliefs. What we do is far more powerful than what we say or think. Try to look at the guys that you work with from that perspective and you might open yourself to enjoying more of the world. _____ I don't think I have a problem seeing the good in people; I think I'm just expressing the situation in a one-sided manner because I'm venting. But the issue isn't really, " can I interact with group x and not be condescending? " It's really more like, out of all the types of people in the world, which ones do I want to surround myself with for the majority of my time? Out of all the situations in the world, which ones do I want to surround myself with? Out of all the problems in the world, which ones would I like to solve? And then, of course, as you've pointed out, the problems with the toxic environment are more immediate. Chris It's been fun to read your stuff on this because in many ways we were similar when I was your age. > I was in > college for the last six years, and this past summer was > essentially my > reintroduction back into the " real world " for the first time > in my adult life. I > don't like the real world. I preferred college. That would be why they are called " Ivory Towers " . Very little connection to the sloppy, messy world of real people. Find the joy in the slop. It's in there. Ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 26, 2005 Report Share Posted February 26, 2005 > Sheesh, I was hoping everyone would respond in shock and > reassure me that > the rest of the world wasn't like this place. All the time > spent in college I > forgot about all the people I grew up with in a small town > who thought that > abolishing slavery was the dumbest thing this country ever > did. Let me just ask you this. Where there no people of quality in your town? Did their belief in the fact that slavery should still exist preclude them from being decent people? My experience, and a good portion of it was generated during my time in heavy construction, is that there are people of quality in every economic strata just as there bad people in every economic strata. Because you live in your head and you have very elaborate models of how the world should work you are having difficulty locating that which is good in others because their particular belief systems conflict with yours. I've found that our beliefs are just how we explain the world that we see. Our quality seems to be independent of our beliefs. What we do is far more powerful than what we say or think. Try to look at the guys that you work with from that perspective and you might open yourself to enjoying more of the world. It's been fun to read your stuff on this because in many ways we were similar when I was your age. > I was in > college for the last six years, and this past summer was > essentially my > reintroduction back into the " real world " for the first time > in my adult life. I > don't like the real world. I preferred college. That would be why they are called " Ivory Towers " . Very little connection to the sloppy, messy world of real people. Find the joy in the slop. It's in there. Ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 26, 2005 Report Share Posted February 26, 2005 Hi , > >I will just say that what is actually doing is _experiencing_ > >humanity. > > He's experiencing one part of humanity, Yes, agreed. No more or less real than the NN world or the world of Park Avenue or the world of Jerry Springer. > but he seems to be > drawing partly > incorrect conclusions from some of that experience. > Agreed again. The real world is in massive conflict with his models of how the real world should operate. 6 years in academia will do that to you. Now the interesting question is does he retreat to academia or does he open and expand his academic knowledge to include real people, real systems, real life. Ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 26, 2005 Report Share Posted February 26, 2005 RE: OT: Chris's Job I will just say that what is actually doing is _experiencing_ humanity. You could argue that there are far more people on this earth like the guys he works with than there are who are like you and me. Because we choose to isolate ourselves from those kind of people we don't include them in our models of how the world works. Or we call them names and dismiss them. is getting to experience a part of humanity first hand. The conclusions he draws and how he chooses to react to the things he gets to see everyday will determine whether he debases himself or not. ****************** Ron, that was beautiful, and so true. It is human nature to surround yourself with people of like means and minds. Those folks that actively introduce themsleves to different segments of the population, or find themsleves there " by accident " , seem to grow into a richer understanding of humanity in general. seems to be a thoughtful person, so I bet he will draw on this experience later in life. But, like you said, he should high-tail it out of there soon, before he does irreparable damage to his body! Vivian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 26, 2005 Report Share Posted February 26, 2005 From: ChrisMasterjohn@... Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 6:02 PM Subject: Re: OT: Chris's Job I was in college for the last six years, and this past summer was essentially my reintroduction back into the " real world " for the first time in my adult life. I don't like the real world. I preferred college. ********* Well see, you have learned something! LOL. My father owned an electrical manufacturing company (small factory) and when I was in high school I would work in assembly after school to make some money. It was monotonous, dirty work and my fingers got infected from some of the dirty lubricant on certain machines and my thumbs numb from repeatedly pressing down on them to place parts on a turntable. One day he gave me a ride home from work and when I jumped in the car with him he asked me if I thought I wanted to work there after high school like some of my other sisters had done (and some of their husbands), or go on to college and learn something else. I said college sounded like a good idea, LOL. He knew what he was doing. ********* I think maybe people who live in cities are more sane? Maybe I could move to a city? Chris *********** Well, Boston is your city and the job market does seem to be picking up again. If you find yourself in the Boston-North area, at least I can help you find some NT food ) Vivian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 26, 2005 Report Share Posted February 26, 2005 > RE: OT: Chris's Job > > >Sure, these guys are jerks. They're also struggling, making the best >of the cards they were dealt, trying to feed their families....kinda >heroic, really. Right on! My favorite hero is the big guy who picks up the little guy and slams him into concrete walls. A true act of heroism, if there every was one. is the real jerk for not recognizing the heroism that he witnesses daily. Suze Fisher Lapdog Design, Inc. Web Design & Development http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine http://www.westonaprice.org ---------------------------- " The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " -- Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher. The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics <http://www.thincs.org> ---------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 26, 2005 Report Share Posted February 26, 2005 Vivian Kooken wrote: > From: ChrisMasterjohn@... > > I think maybe people who live in cities are more sane? Maybe I > could move to a city? > > Chris > *********** > > Well, Boston is your city and the job market does seem to be picking > up again. If you find yourself in the Boston-North area, at least I > can help you find some NT food ) > Vivian I lived in western Mass. for many years, and enjoyed the gorgeous environment out there. However, opportunities for employment were better in Boston, so there I went. I am glad I lived in Boston, the experience was invaluable. There are all sorts of people in the city, and you can find the sane ones easily. Is music your passion? Join the record society and play renaissance music and find out who your neighbors are! Food? There are many many cooking classes, and the people you meet are wonderful! Homebrew? Wow there are clubs and conventions, all outside your front door, in Boston! So many colleges with great continuing education programs geared towards the working adult. There are so many interest groups that one is never bored. The job I found, though not the most fulfilling, easily pays my bills with some to spare. I lived in the city a few years, then moved to the North Shore. The air is cleaner, and there is a bit more breathing space. You can find pastured eggs, farm produce, and raw milk. I still work in Boston, the money is good and one day I might afford a small homestead in New Hampshire or northern Massachusetts. The opportunities are there, if you look. The pay is better than western Mass., but then the cost of rent etc. is a bit higher too. From what I have found, the people in Boston are sane. But I do miss the hills of Cummington, the Montague fells and Bookmill, Amethyst brook, the Holyoke Range, Sugarloaf in Sunderland, Rattlesnake Gutter Road, and Mt. Toby. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 26, 2005 Report Share Posted February 26, 2005 Hi Connie, I'm a recruiter and career coach. Surfing the web for jobs is only slightly more useful than buying a newspaper for the want ads - doesn't get you anywhere if you don't apply. Better than surfing is networking - 65-80% of all jobs are obtained by referral and introduction. 5% through recruiters and the remaining 15-30% from websites, newspapers, etc. So apportion your job search time the same way. Network!!! Thank you very much for your helpful advice. How would you really like to earn a living? You are quite verbally intelligent, articulate and well spoken - skills you are not using building concrete things. You mention a job that is taking a long time to come through. Could you temp in that field? The secretaries know the hiring managers. I would like to earn a living doing something I'm interested in (which is very boad) where I have a reasonable amount of time for leisure and have a significant degree of self-management, independence, and responsibility. I would like teaching, writing, researching, or some kind of problem-solving. I have a history degree, which gets me basically nowhere, and I have an additional 43 credit-hours of undergrad lab sciences. I have basically no work experience to showcase on a resume. I'll be finding out at the beginning of March whether I can get the teaching job to which I was referring. I also have considerable musical talent that I haven't used in years, a decent singing voice that would be good if I took the time to improve it, and dance ability, and I sometimes wonder if I could make it in the world of music, but it's such a long-shot that it doesn't seem reasonable to gamble all the time I'd have to invest in it. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 26, 2005 Report Share Posted February 26, 2005 Ron- > > but he seems to be > > drawing partly > > incorrect conclusions from some of that experience. > > > >Agreed again. The real world is in massive conflict with his models of how >the real world should operate. 6 years in academia will do that to you. > >Now the interesting question is does he retreat to academia or does he open >and expand his academic knowledge to include real people, real systems, real >life. You seem to suffer from the common fallacy that blue collar-type spheres are " real " while " academia " is not. If we're going to grant construction workers " reality " , why should we not do the same for academics? - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 26, 2005 Report Share Posted February 26, 2005 Chris- >You are right, though, that people can hold abhorrent views on the one hand >and be great people, in an interactive sense, on the other. I guess >that's a >conflict I feel like running away from. Trait a indicates person x = good >person; trait b indicates person x = bad person. Bad person = good person, >contradiction. System failure. [smoke exits ears] That is a legitimate problem, but it's not one we should run away from. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 26, 2005 Report Share Posted February 26, 2005 On Saturday, February 26, 2005, at 12:12 PM, Suze Fisher wrote: > Right on! My favorite hero is the big guy who picks up the little guy > and > slams him into concrete walls. A true act of heroism, if there every > was > one. > > is the real jerk for not recognizing the heroism that he > witnesses > daily. > > > Suze Fisher > Just had to laugh out loud at this one! Sandy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 27, 2005 Report Share Posted February 27, 2005 > >> >> He's actually doing pretty well for a history major. >> >> -- >> Berg >> > So, , are you saying it is his choice to suffer? He's made his > bed, now he can lie in it? Oh, I have to say, choosing careers is a > matter of market influence, or should be to the pragmatist who wants a > return on the college investment. Else I'd have studied drama. > > Deanna Well, college is not a trade school. I had a BM in music history and at one point found myself doing jobs almost as bad as Chris' , and probably for less pay. Made me real appreciative when I landed my current gig. www.en.com/users/jaquick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 27, 2005 Report Share Posted February 27, 2005 Re: OT: Chris's Job I lived in the city a few years, then moved to the North Shore. The air is cleaner, and there is a bit more breathing space. You can find pastured eggs, farm produce, and raw milk. I still work in Boston, the money is good and one day I might afford a small homestead in New Hampshire or northern Massachusetts. ********** Hi Neighbor! ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 27, 2005 Report Share Posted February 27, 2005 > > ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: tmail > >> I lived in the city a few years, then moved to the North Shore. > >Vivian Kooken wrote: >Hi Neighbor! ) > > Hi Neighbor! Lucky us to be on the North Shore! I live in Swampscott, and participate in the local raw milk buyer's club. I am always looking for farm produce, do you know of any good local CSAs? Best, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2005 Report Share Posted February 28, 2005 > But I do miss the hills of > Cummington, the Montague fells and Bookmill, Amethyst brook, the Holyoke > Range, Sugarloaf in Sunderland, Rattlesnake Gutter Road, and Mt. Toby. > > Rattlesnake Gutter, Mt. Toby, and Bookmill. My neck of the woods. I'm north of Leverett, Montague and Shutesbury. Wanita -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.5.1 - Release Date: 2/27/2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2005 Report Share Posted February 28, 2005 Most people want Harry Potter's Sorting Hat to tell them where they belong and what they should be when they grow up. There is no such hat. You can be anything you want as long as you are willing to choose one thing at a time and really work at it. But you have to put yourself in just one world at a time (or at least choose one thing to start with - you can always change later, but choose now!) Then go after it (whatever it is)!! Find the people doing it, talk to the people around the people doing it, figure out what the " sweet spot " is for you - Do you like teaching because you want other people to learn or because you want to be the " one who knows " and honored for that? These are different jobs - elementary school teacher or Chair of the History Department at Harvard. Is it the " aha " moment in the eyes of a kid or the hot and cold running grad students that attracts you to teaching? What about freelance teaching? Is it the study or the writing? The publishing or the lecturing? Would being a docent at an historical site be a good entry level money job for now - better than construction? Or researcher for one of the history channel's shows? Don't just become like the many slackers of the Baby Boom generation, going to Scifi cons and leading workshops while still making $8/hr somewhere and living with a heap of other " big idea " people with no follow through. Connie H. > Hi Connie, > > > I'm a recruiter and career coach. Surfing the web for jobs is only > slightly more useful than buying a newspaper for the want ads - > doesn't get you anywhere if you don't apply. Better than surfing is > networking - 65-80% of all jobs are obtained by referral and > introduction. 5% through recruiters and the remaining 15-30% from > websites, newspapers, etc. So apportion your job search time the > same way. Network!!! > Thank you very much for your helpful advice. > > > How would you really like to earn a living? You are quite verbally > intelligent, articulate and well spoken - skills you are not using > building concrete things. You mention a job that is taking a long > time to come through. Could you temp in that field? The > secretaries know the hiring managers. > > I would like to earn a living doing something I'm interested in (which is > very boad) where I have a reasonable amount of time for leisure and have a > significant degree of self-management, independence, and responsibility. I would > like teaching, writing, researching, or some kind of problem- solving. I > have a history degree, which gets me basically nowhere, and I have an additional > 43 credit-hours of undergrad lab sciences. I have basically no work > experience to showcase on a resume. I'll be finding out at the beginning of March > whether I can get the teaching job to which I was referring. I also have > considerable musical talent that I haven't used in years, a decent singing voice > that would be good if I took the time to improve it, and dance ability, and I > sometimes wonder if I could make it in the world of music, but it's such a > long-shot that it doesn't seem reasonable to gamble all the time I'd have to > invest in it. > > Chris > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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