soaking/cooking beans, magnesium

November 3, 2004

@@@

> But, even though I've tried every way I've heard of, they still give me

> just as much gas, no matter what. Guess I'll just give up on beans. I

> hate to because they're such a good source of magnesium and other

> nutrients.

> Carol

@@@

Legumes are pretty nice foods, but when you get down to it, they are

low-ranking foods in the grand scheme, at least in terms of health,

not affordability! In my recent scheme of " the best health foods "

they are in Tier 4, the lowest tier among good foods. They are

decent source of many nutrients, but there are many better sources of

any given nutrient, and they're basically Neolithic foods anyway

AFAIK. You could easily just go for an entire lifetime without

bothering to eat any, and you might even be better off, given the

issues with antinutrients and toxins like lectins, not to mention

digestive challenges. I personally really like legumes, and I used

to use them a lot in soups and curries, but I've basically phased them

out except for small amounts consumed as raw sprouts. I rather favor

a good lentil curry though, so it's in the " rare treat " category.

My input to the general soaking/cooking thread echoes 's

suggestion to sprout them. I used to use lots of lentils, chickpeas

(white, black, etc), and other " non-bean " legumes in soups, but I

would sprout them for several days first, to the point where they had

a good inch or so of sprout growth. I figured this could only make

them more nutritious and reduces the cooking time to mere minutes, and

it's just so awfully easy to let them sit out for a few days and rinse

them once a day or something. You don't have to fuss too much with

sprouting them as far as good technique goes; don't be intimidated by

instructions that say " rinse every x hours " , etc; they are very

forgiving of careless technique!

My main thought in replying here is to point out that legumes are not

necessary at all for magnesium and are actually not especially dense

in magnesium. Of course, it's the kind of food you can eat in very

large quantities, so it could be great source of magnesium, just like

nuts, fish, other meats, etc. In general, legumes do seem to cluster

around meat as far as Mg density. I'm pasting below my personal file

of magnesium density for your reference so you can see the dozens of

options superior to legumes. (I've posted this a few other times in

the past on this list, but I do update these things once in a while so

it might be slightly different than last time.) One of the most

interesting data pertaining to legumes is that mothbeans are more than

twice as dense in Mg as the average of the other legumes I looked at.

Kind of a weird random thing, and nice because I usually include

mothbeans in my sprout mix. Spice seeds and watermelon seeds

generally rank pretty well for Mg too, typical of low-starch seeds.

The usual caveats about this kind of data apply: soil quality, breed,

etc are ignored, yet are very very important for true nutrient density

considerations. Nevertheless, the big take home lesson is " eat your

greens!!! " and " eat your sea veggies!!! " . The former point is

common, but the latter point is not accepted as widely as it should

be. Check out the NT-recommended and NN-praised source and try some:

http://www.alcasoft.com/seaweed/

Mike

SE Pennsylvania

The best way to predict the future is to invent it. --Alan Kay

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Magnesium Density

[from USDA unless * or otherwise noted]

mg Mg/cal

swiss chard 4.3

beet greens 3.8

kelp 3.7 (MCSV), 2.8 (USDA)

alaria 3.5 (MCSV)

spinach 3.4

irishmoss 2.9 (USDA)

snail 2.8

agar 2.5 (USDA)

wakame 2.4 (USDA)

horseradish tree leafy tips 2.3

arugula 1.9

watercress 1.9

sweetpotato greens 1.7

pak-choi cabbage 1.5

garden cress 1.4

spearmint 1.4

coconut water 1.3

chicory greens 1.3

chrysanthemum greens 1.3

turnip greens 1.2

mustard greens 1.2

nori 1.2 (MCSV)

coriander seed 1.1

fennel seed 1.1

coriander greens 1.1

moth beans 1.1

peppermint 1.1

radish sprouts 1.0

butterhead lettuce 1.0

dulse 1.0 (MCSV)

cumin seed .98

watermelon seed .93

daikon radish .89

endive .88

dill seed .84

cos or romaine lettuce .82

pe-tsai cabbage .81

iceberg lettuce .80

dandelion .80

celery .79

lambsquarter .79

peppercorns .76

red leaf lettuce .75

pollock, Atlantic .73

amaranth .71

mung sprouts .70

kohlrabi .70

oyster, eastern, wild .69

kale .68

soybeans .67

grayling* .65

buckwheat .64

lotus seeds .63

cabbage .63

radish .63

ginger .62

broccoli .62

sesame seeds, whole .61

cauliflower .60

sesame seeds, decorticated .59

fenugreek seeds .59

radicchio .57

oyster, eastern, farmed .56

quinoa .56

fava beans .56

mung beans .54

turbot, european .54

beet root .53

cashews .52

oats .50

almonds .50

mola* .50

anise seeds .50

pilinuts-canarytree .42

kidney beans .42

bass, striped .41

cod, Atlantic .39

adzuki beans .39

cuttlefish .38

mackerel, Atlantic .37

pine nuts .37

ptarmigan, meat* .35

pike, northern .35

tuna, bluefin .35

shrimp, mixed species .35

split peas .34

walnuts, Black .33

peanuts, Spanish .33

chia seeds .33

chickpeas .32

lentils .32

smelt, rainbow .31

milk, bovine, skim .31

banana, .30

caribou, heart* .29

rockfish, Pacific .28

moose, muscle meat* .27

grouse, meat* .27

trout, rainbow, wild .26

hazelnuts .26

walnuts, English .24

trout, rainbow, farmed .23

carp .23

bearded seal intestine* .22

caribou, muscle meat* .22

pistachio nuts .22

milk, bovine, 3.25% .21

milk, caprine 4.14% .20

herring, Atlantic .20

salmon, Atlantic, wild .20

macadamia nuts .18

pecans .18

milk, ovine 7% .17

salmon, Atlantic, farmed .15

coconut meat .09

November 3, 2004

Mike,

My diet has been extremely limited for several years, so I'm just trying to

expand it a little. I haven't eaten legumes in all that time, because of an MS

diet I was on, and I've been getting along fine without them. In fact, I've

never eaten them much my whole life, because of the digestive difficulties. The

only reason I've been trying to eat them now is that I can't eat grains either.

I just don't tolerate grains at all, not because of intestinal problems as much

as other symptoms, though.

Since I got Nourishing Traditions, I'm trying all sorts of things I haven't been

eating. Dairy is another one I'd eliminated for the MS diet. (I've basically

only been eating veggies, chicken, some nuts/seeds and a little fish, for

years.) I was going to try fermented grains next, but I have some doubts there,

especially after the failure of the beans.

I'm also trying to get off vitamin supplements and magnesium is a nutrient I

have been deficient in, in the past. Those amounts of magnesium in your list

are awfully low. What volume of foods applies to those mgs?

I have never heard of moth beans, or spice seeds. Where do you get them?

I imagine I don't know how to eat some of these foods either, because when I've

tried them, they don't seem palatable to me and I've ended up throwing them out

- dark greens like chard and kale and sea veggies.

Carol

In general, legumes do seem to cluster

around meat as far as Mg density. I'm pasting below my personal file

of magnesium density for your reference so you can see the dozens of

options superior to legumes. (I've posted this a few other times in

the past on this list, but I do update these things once in a while so

it might be slightly different than last time.) One of the most

interesting data pertaining to legumes is that mothbeans are more than

twice as dense in Mg as the average of the other legumes I looked at.

Spice seeds and watermelon seeds

generally rank pretty well for Mg too, typical of low-starch seeds.

Nevertheless, the big take home lesson is " eat your

greens!!! " and " eat your sea veggies!!! " . The former point is

common, but the latter point is not accepted as widely as it should

be. Check out the NT-recommended and NN-praised source and try some:

http://www.alcasoft.com/seaweed/

Mike

SE Pennsylvania

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Magnesium Density

[from USDA unless * or otherwise noted]

mg Mg/cal

November 3, 2004

@@@ Carol:

> I'm also trying to get off vitamin supplements and magnesium is a nutrient I

> have been deficient in, in the past. Those amounts of magnesium in your

> list are awfully low. What volume of foods applies to those mgs?

@@@

Well, it's nutrient-density, so it's per calorie, like it says at the

top. 1 calorie is a tiny amount of food! If you want to do calorie

to gram conversions, just check the USDA site:

usda.shim.net. Better yet, don't bother, because you have to eat

*something*, and lists like these help you pick good foods, so if you

eat mostly good foods, then the numbers take care of themselves.

@@@ Carol:

> I have never heard of moth beans, or spice seeds. Where do you get them?

@@@

Mothbeans are a specific legume you can find at Indian shops; they are

very small, somewhere in between mung and fenugreek in size. Spice

seeds is a generic category of foods you can get different examples of

all over the place, coriander, cumin, fennel, dill, etc, just all the

normal stuff common to many cuisines.

@@@

> I imagine I don't know how to eat some of these foods either, because when

> I've tried them, they don't seem palatable to me and I've ended up throwing

> them out - dark greens like chard and kale and sea veggies.

> Carol

@@@

<cringe>!!!

I don't have any response to that other than sympathy! I relish these

foods. I mean, just a plate of steamed beet greens or kale is a

hearty and wonderful food, the former being especially delicious in my

experience.

Well, okay, I guess some good advice would be to throw any of those

things in soups where the flavors blend. Sea veggies like kelp really

improve the flavor of soups too, in a subtle way, since they give the

umami taste from their free glutamate. It doesn't matter how much

you cook these greens and sea veggies; you won't lose any minerals no

matter how much you cook them, so it's okay to simmer for hours with a

soup (where of course you're eating the cooking water), and more

cooking might make the minerals more bioavailable. Naturally a

carcass-based soup will offer better utilization of the minerals too.

People often eat greens fried in lard, so there's another option.

Another way to eat sea veggies is to simmer/boil the heck out of them,

use the cooking water for stocks/broths/infusions/teas/whatever, and

puree the mushy sea veggies in a blender or food processor, adding

whatever you like for flavor to get delicious sea veggie puddings.

You can cook the sea veggies with spices, fruit, or whatever for

flavor. It's one of my favorite discoveries!

You can also add these things as minor components of your kimchis.

Mike

SE Pennsylvania

The best way to predict the future is to invent it. --Alan Kay

November 3, 2004

Mike,

Ok, you've convinced me to try them in soups. I've been looking for a way to

'spice up' my chicken broth, and maybe this is it. In fact, maybe the sea

veggies would take the place of fish for fish broths. (Since it's so difficult

to get good fish where I live.)

I agree beet greens are delicious, but kale and chard are bitter, to me. (Plus,

the last organic chard I got smelled like mildew. I wish grocers would quit

spraying water all over everything all the time. I can't count the number of

times I've had to throw otherwise good produce away, because it has a mildew

smell.)

Carol

I don't have any response to that other than sympathy! I relish these

foods. I mean, just a plate of steamed beet greens or kale is a

hearty and wonderful food, the former being especially delicious in my

experience.

Sea veggies like kelp really