Guest guest Posted October 21, 2004 Report Share Posted October 21, 2004 Hi, Magda, Start here for good solid information about issues with soy products: http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/index.html There are two kinds of issues with soy. The first is more related to digestion and nutrient absorption: -All unfermented soy products (tofu, soymilk, soybeans) contain trypsin inhibitors, and will interfere with protein digestion. -All unfermented soy products contain large amounts of phytates, which block the absorption of some important minerals, including zinc. -And many, many other issues, as you will find on the above link. The second is related to hormones: -All soy, regardless of whether or not it is fermented, contains high amounts of phytoestrogens, which can interfere with the body's own hormones. Glad you're posting! All the best, B. On Thursday, October 21, 2004, at 09:59 AM, m2veleck wrote: > > I've mostly been a lurker on this list as I'm pretty new to NT. > > My big question lately is soy. I know it messes with your thyroid > and I've read to avoid it. Does it only refer to commercial soy > products (like the soy protein isolate that seems to be in > everything " high protein " these days) or anything soy? I've read to > avoid soybean oil, but what about raw soybeans? tofu? Is there any > preparation that makes soybeans good for you? > > Thanks for the info, > Magda > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 2004 Report Share Posted October 21, 2004 @@@ > My big question lately is soy. I know it messes with your thyroid > and I've read to avoid it. Does it only refer to commercial soy > products (like the soy protein isolate that seems to be in > everything " high protein " these days) or anything soy? I've read to > avoid soybean oil, but what about raw soybeans? tofu? Is there any > preparation that makes soybeans good for you? > > Thanks for the info, > Magda @@@ Hello Magda, welcome to the group. The thyroid problems are due to the phytoestrogens in soy. These substances interact with your body's natural hormonal system, possibly helping, but probably hurting in most cases, especially for men. Many foods contain phytoestrogens, but the levels in soy are much higher than most foods and it has been bred to be even higher. This is something inherent to soy, so it doesn't matter whether you consume soy processed like junk food (soy powders, soy burgers, etc) or soy processed with traditional methods like fermentation (natto, miso, fermented tofu, tempeh, tamari) or precipatation (tofu). If you have thyroid issues, it's probably best to avoid soy in any form whatsoever, even including the healthiest possible forms, which are the fermented ones. Fermentation doesn't eliminate phytoestrogens; in fact, it may even make them stronger. Actually, the advice to avoid soybean oil is good advice, but there's nothing especially bad about soybean oils compared to other typical vegetable oils. It's just a highly-processed empty-calorie food, just like highly processed olive oil. Artisanally produced (cold-pressed or whatever) soybean oil is no better or worse than other typical vegetable oils. It doesn't have any of the problems soy is famous for. So you might even say that soybean oil is the best soy food of all! " best " should probably be replaced with " least problematic " of course. You ask about raw soybeans. They are not edible for humans. End of story! Tofu? Can be an okay quality (not " good quality " ) food, better than junk soy, but less healthy than fermented soy foods. It is moderately nutritious, but less nutritious than hundreds of other foods you can eat instead. " Is there any preparation that makes soy good for you? " Well, the issues with soy are too complex to be reduced to a simple classification of good/bad. What we can say is that fermentation is the best possible form of preparation, but there are 3 keys properties of fermented soy that constitute tradeoffs: 1) (potentially very bad property) Just as many phytoestrogens as any other form of soy. If it weren't for the high levels of phytoestrogens in soy, it would be " just another legume " and there wouldn't be any special fuss about it. 2) (potentially very good property) Like fermented foods in general, fermented soy, especially natto, can have powerful health benefits. These benefits come from the bacteria (and possibly yeasts) that use the soy as a medium, not the soy itself. 3) (good property, but very humdrum) Fermentation is the most effective way of reducing certain substances in soy that are highly undesirable, mainly phytic acid and antitrypsin. These substances limit the nutritional value of many seeds food like soy. By reducing them, minerals and protein become more bioavailable for humans, turning an inedible and barely nutritious food into a moderately nutritious food. However, that's moderately nutritious, not very nutritious. There are hundreds of very nutritious foods that can be eaten instead, and soy offers no nutrients for which there aren't far better sources among common foods. Further, it's essentially no more nutritious than many other seed foods, particularly other legumes like lentils, chickpeas, etc. This entire class of seed foods can be useful and moderately nutritious if prepared suitably, but AT THEIR BEST they are solid/decent/good foods, and can never be GREAT foods. Note that there are many great foods to eat instead, like meats, vegetables, eggs, fruits, milk, etc. In sum, if 1) you don't think small amounts of phytoestrogens are a problem (I personally don't worry about getting a little from various foods here and there), and 2) the soybeans are organic, not genetically modified, come from good soil, etc (totally independent issues), and 3) the soy is fermented, long-sprouted (more antinutrients than fermented soy, but useful vitamin content), or in the form of artisanal tofu (least nutritious of the three categories), and 4) the soy is eaten in small quantities as a condiment or side dish, and 5) you have some reason to eat soy (e.g. you like the flavor, you're a poor person in a developing country, you want the independent benefits of fermentation, etc), then by all means EAT SOY!! Otherwise, AVOID AT ALL COSTS! I personally eat natto now and again, but the best one-liner advice I can offer about soy is " If you feel you need to eat legumes, an average-quality category of food at best, forget soy and eat lentils. " I'm not an expert, so there may be one or two key points I've missed, like stuff about lectins, which I haven't looked into... Nevertheless, the basic views I've expressed are about the same as the NT/WAPF views on soy. Mike SE Pennsylvania The best way to predict the future is to invent it. --Alan Kay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 2004 Report Share Posted October 21, 2004 Regarding the natural toxins in soy, I heard the only kind that is safe is Tempe (and maybe natto). ****************************** The active misidentification of evil is the worst kind of evil. -MRN _____ From: Pratick Mukherjee [mailto:pratickmukherjee@...] Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 12:23 PM Subject: Re: Soy - is it all bad?? * Magda -- A few things about soy -- 1. Stick with the receipes and techniques described in the NT and the WF book. You can't go wrong with those. 2. Soy foods are best used only as occasional condiments, and not as a staple part of your diet. Which means, no meal replacement bars, no meat replacement soy foods, no milk replacement, etc. 3. Avoid most commercial/industrial grade soy, which includes commercial soy milk, soy protein isolate, soybean oil, etc. Hope this helps. --- m2veleck <velecky@...> wrote: > > I've mostly been a lurker on this list as I'm pretty new to NT. > > My big question lately is soy. I know it messes with your thyroid > and I've read to avoid it. Does it only refer to commercial soy > products (like the soy protein isolate that seems to be in > everything " high protein " these days) or anything soy? I've read to > avoid soybean oil, but what about raw soybeans? tofu? Is there any > preparation that makes soybeans good for you? > > Thanks for the info, > Magda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 24, 2004 Report Share Posted October 24, 2004 > Re: Soy - is it all bad?? > > > >@@@ >> My big question lately is soy. I know it messes with your thyroid >> and I've read to avoid it. Does it only refer to commercial soy >> products (like the soy protein isolate that seems to be in >> everything " high protein " these days) or anything soy? I've read to >> avoid soybean oil, but what about raw soybeans? tofu? Is there any >> preparation that makes soybeans good for you? >> >> Thanks for the info, >> Magda >@@@ Here's a good summary from the WAPF website: --High levels of phytic acid in soy reduce assimilation of calcium, magnesium, copper, iron and zinc. Phytic acid in soy is not neutralized by ordinary preparation methods such as soaking, sprouting and long, slow cooking. High phytate diets have caused growth problems in children. --Trypsin inhibitors in soy interfere with protein digestion and may cause pancreatic disorders. In test animals soy containing trypsin inhibitors caused stunted growth. --Soy phytoestrogens disrupt endocrine function and have the potential to cause infertility and to promote breast cancer in adult women. --Soy phytoestrogens are potent antithyroid agents that cause hypothyroidism and may cause thyroid cancer. In infants, consumption of soy formula has been linked to autoimmune thyroid disease. --Vitamin B12 analogs in soy are not absorbed and actually increase the body's requirement for B12. Soy foods increase the body's requirement for vitamin D. --Fragile proteins are denatured during high temperature processing to make soy protein isolate and textured vegetable protein. --Processing of soy protein results in the formation of toxic lysinoalanine and highly carcinogenic nitrosamines. --Free glutamic acid or MSG, a potent neurotoxin, is formed during soy food processing and additional amounts are added to many soy foods. --Soy foods contain high levels of aluminum which is toxic to the nervous system and the kidneys. I would add to that, that 86% of soy is genetically modified, which can potentially lead to severe health problems. Suze Fisher Lapdog Design, Inc. Web Design & Development http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine http://www.westonaprice.org ---------------------------- " The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " -- Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher. The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics <http://www.thincs.org> ---------------------------- > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 24, 2004 Report Share Posted October 24, 2004 If you must have soy than the only form it should be in is fermented. Everything else is overly processed full of sugar. Matt Pack >From: " Suze Fisher " <s.fisher22@...> >Reply- >< > >Subject: RE: Soy - is it all bad?? >Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 10:19:20 -0400 > > > > Re: Soy - is it all bad?? > > > > > > > >@@@ > >> My big question lately is soy. I know it messes with your thyroid > >> and I've read to avoid it. Does it only refer to commercial soy > >> products (like the soy protein isolate that seems to be in > >> everything " high protein " these days) or anything soy? I've read to > >> avoid soybean oil, but what about raw soybeans? tofu? Is there any > >> preparation that makes soybeans good for you? > >> > >> Thanks for the info, > >> Magda > >@@@ > > >Here's a good summary from the WAPF website: > >--High levels of phytic acid in soy reduce assimilation of calcium, >magnesium, copper, iron and zinc. Phytic acid in soy is not neutralized by >ordinary preparation methods such as soaking, sprouting and long, slow >cooking. High phytate diets have caused growth problems in children. >--Trypsin inhibitors in soy interfere with protein digestion and may cause >pancreatic disorders. In test animals soy containing trypsin inhibitors >caused stunted growth. >--Soy phytoestrogens disrupt endocrine function and have the potential to >cause infertility and to promote breast cancer in adult women. >--Soy phytoestrogens are potent antithyroid agents that cause >hypothyroidism >and may cause thyroid cancer. In infants, consumption of soy formula has >been linked to autoimmune thyroid disease. >--Vitamin B12 analogs in soy are not absorbed and actually increase the >body's requirement for B12. >Soy foods increase the body's requirement for vitamin D. >--Fragile proteins are denatured during high temperature processing to make >soy protein isolate and textured vegetable protein. >--Processing of soy protein results in the formation of toxic lysinoalanine >and highly carcinogenic nitrosamines. >--Free glutamic acid or MSG, a potent neurotoxin, is formed during soy food >processing and additional amounts are added to many soy foods. >--Soy foods contain high levels of aluminum which is toxic to the nervous >system and the kidneys. > > >I would add to that, that 86% of soy is genetically modified, which can >potentially lead to severe health problems. > > > >Suze Fisher >Lapdog Design, Inc. >Web Design & Development >http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg >Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine >http://www.westonaprice.org > >---------------------------- > " The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause >heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " -- >Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt >University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher. > >The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics ><http://www.thincs.org> >---------------------------- > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 24, 2004 Report Share Posted October 24, 2004 @@@ > If you must have soy than the only form it should be in is fermented. > Everything else is overly processed full of sugar. > > Matt Pack @@@@ Hmm, I more or less agree with your first sentence, but I question the implied reasoning behind it. If anything, fermented soy is best because it's *extremely processed*. Fermented soy is typically germinated, cooked, and radically transformed by microbes. That's a lot of processing. Simply cooked soybeans are an example in the " everything else " category, but they are actually far less processed and not full of sugar at all. Tofu is less processed than some forms of fermented soy, and also has no more sugar. I'm sure you're referring to soy junk foods like powders, imitation meat, etc, but the reasons why these are not good foods have little relation to the reasons why fermented soy is best. They are pretty much independent issues. Fermented soy is best because it's nutrients are more bioavailable. The problems with soy junk foods are the mostly the same general problems as most junk foods, with the additional issue of lower nutrient bioavailability. Sugar content isn't relevant at all here, beyond perhaps some tiny subset of soy junk foods to which junk sugar has been added. Mike SE Pennsylvania The best way to predict the future is to invent it. --Alan Kay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 26, 2004 Report Share Posted October 26, 2004 As far as the sugar and Soy are concerned I was referring to Soy Milk. A much better choice than Soy Milk would be either raw unpasterized milk or Goat Milk. >From: Anton <michaelantonparker@...> >Reply- > >Subject: Re: Soy - is it all bad?? >Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 16:35:21 -0400 > >@@@ > > If you must have soy than the only form it should be in is fermented. > > Everything else is overly processed full of sugar. > > > > Matt Pack >@@@@ > >Hmm, I more or less agree with your first sentence, but I question the >implied reasoning behind it. If anything, fermented soy is best >because it's *extremely processed*. Fermented soy is typically >germinated, cooked, and radically transformed by microbes. That's a >lot of processing. Simply cooked soybeans are an example in the > " everything else " category, but they are actually far less processed >and not full of sugar at all. Tofu is less processed than some forms >of fermented soy, and also has no more sugar. I'm sure you're >referring to soy junk foods like powders, imitation meat, etc, but the >reasons why these are not good foods have little relation to the >reasons why fermented soy is best. They are pretty much independent >issues. Fermented soy is best because it's nutrients are more >bioavailable. The problems with soy junk foods are the mostly the >same general problems as most junk foods, with the additional issue of >lower nutrient bioavailability. Sugar content isn't relevant at all >here, beyond perhaps some tiny subset of soy junk foods to which junk >sugar has been added. > >Mike >SE Pennsylvania > >The best way to predict the future is to invent it. --Alan Kay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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