Re: Re: undigested proteins

[Guest guest]

>On the other hand, we've eaten grains for quite a while, and cattle

>have enjoyed them, too. It seems that if we sprout and ferment seeds

>like wheat and soy before we eat them, then we can eat them regularly

>without it ruining our health. But if we eat them like candy,

>without turning off their protective mechanisms by means of sprouting

>and/or fermenting them first, then we're asking for trouble.

>

>

Actually cattle have not had grains much until recently. My

goats LOVE seed heads, and eat them when they can ...

but seed heads only occur during a short season, and when

they eat them they get a lot of chaff etc. coating the seed.

But if you let a goat alone with a canister of oats, it will

eat itself to death, and the folks at the coop always tell

me " don't feed them more than a scoop a day!!!! " It was

considered way too expensive to feed cows grain much ...

they get corn now to fatten them up mainly because corn

is so highly subsidized.

However, I agree on many of the grains and seeds ...

humans haven't had much trouble with, say, rice or

millet. Wheat is an odd case though ... it seems to have

caused major problems for the Egyptians, Assyrians,

and Romans, mainly for a subset of folks with a certain

genotype, who promptly died off in those cultures.

Northern Europeans didn't get wheat until very recently ...

in some cases, wheat wasn't eaten much until 50 or 100

years ago. Now that stock is going through the

same health issues that the early cultures went through

3000 or so years ago. But again, it's only for folks with

a certain genotype ... folks with that genotype who react

to wheat and still eat it have a measurably shorter

lifespan (they die more of cancer, heart disease, and

depression, plus they are more infertile). For those folks,

" moderation " with wheat is not a good thing ... it's an

allergy style reaction, and as with folk who are allergic

to peanuts, it takes very little of the allergen to make a

big response. Unlike peanuts though, this response is

largely invisible and the person likely will not know it

is happening.

For the folks who DON'T have that genotype, sprouting

and soaking and all will make wheat easier to digest,

though as far as I've read only a long sourdough ferment

makes the protein completely digestible. I also suspect

that the Mediterranean diet (wheat, olive oil, and wine

together) makes it more digestible too.

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

This brings up an interesting point that I thought about a few

months ago. That is there seems to be a considerable difference between

" green " seeds and mature seeds. I've noticed several situations where

the green seeds (i.e., those seeds that are still full of moisture and

not dried out and awaiting germination), in general, seem to cause far

fewer problems than mature seeds. This includes edemane, a type of

soybean. I have not seen any other comments on this phenomenon but I

suspect that it is due to a greatly reduced level of anti-nutrients. The

seeds are not yet dormant and haven't yet set in their full store of

anti-nutrients (which would, presumably, retard their maturation).

Hence, sweet corn and milky field corn is nutritious and (I believe)

fairly digestable. Mature, dried corn should be treated to maximize

nutrient extraction. Has anyone else noticed this phenomenon or have I

just not correlated enough information?

Geoffrey Tolle

Heidi Schuppenhauer wrote:

> Actually cattle have not had grains much until recently. My

> goats LOVE seed heads, and eat them when they can ...

> but seed heads only occur during a short season, and when

> they eat them they get a lot of chaff etc. coating the seed.

[Guest guest]

>I remember reading that traditional Arabs enjoy camel milk as part of their

diets and had

>perfect palates and teeth.

Yeah, the Hunza too, and the folks who invented Kefir. Those fermented

milk products rock!

>

>In the case of royalty, I thought this had more to do with inbreeding? But

skeletal

>abnormalities were seen among the richer merchants and nobility--those eating

the

>refined wheat products--and probably lots of honey.

There are lots of anectdotal accounts about how the " rich food "

caused nobility to get sick. Ben lin complained about how he

got gout in France. Inbreeding probably had something to do

with it too, but the poor people had a bit of inbreeding too!

What gets me is that in Europe, you hear about the " coarse,

broad peasant face " and the narrow face is associated with

nobility (Prince , for instance). Hearing about the potatoes

in Ireland really got me on that one ... potatoes are a lot more

nutritious and less problematic than wheat is.

>

>

>I wonder what the Irish ate deeper in history? No potatoes. Surely alot of sea

veggies and

>sea foods.

I think Price mentions sea foods and oats ... but the didn't have oats

earlier so it was likely sea food, seaweed, greens ... probably deer and

rabbit too. Probably like the Indians in the Northwest, they didn't

have grains to speak of, just berries and salmon and various

roots and greens. Anyway, the Indians did fine in this area without

grains, and the climate is much like Ireland.

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

:

>Really interesting. Might be what we call " soul food " . They had a

>special soul food dinner one time at the cafeteria on campus. I

>don't think they used the traditional fats, though. I wish they

>had! Whenever they have Thai food, they do use coconut milk and that

>sort of thing. I'm not sure they use coconut oil, though! I've

>encouraged them to use it.

My Mom was from the South, and she just called it " food " or

" poor folks food " . Tripe and collards were what you could

get cheap! She gave me some recipes for Tennessee Country

Ham and taught me about using chicken feet in soup. I had no

idea collards were so easy to grow though ... I grew about 5

kinds of greens and collards and turnip greens outpaced all

the others (and are very resistant to bad gardening practices).

My collard plants have been producing all summer and are still

going strong ... the napa died, and the cabbages got eaten

by bugs or went to seed after a month. Collards are higher

in vitamins than most of the others too.

Oh, and on my list of brown-thumb friendly plants: rhubarb!

They just grow and grow.

> You know, I'm about to decide that gluten, in and of itself, tends to

>be toxic for many of us--probably due to a combination of factors.

>And I'm thinking the fungal problem is the result, not the cause.

>Lots of times I read articles that indicate the microorganisms FOLLOW

>the damage, not cause it. Of course, it could be a " both-and "

>problem, not just " either-or " .

Yeah, I was thinking about it, and gliadin (the bad stuff in gluten)

is a lectin. Ricin is a lectin, and there are lectins in beans that will

make you sick if you don't cook beans right. There are lectins

in mushrooms too, which can either make the mushrooms medicinal

or poisonous.

Lectins are very, very biologically active, and are commonly produced by animals

and plants for a specific purpose ... to fight bacteria, for instance. Maybe

gliadin IS an anti-sprout mechanism for the seed and and antifungal or

who knows what ... but since it is difficult to disable (unlike the lectins

in beans, for instance) it shouldn't be a surprise that it " does stuff "

in the human body. I haven't studied the particulars, but there are

folks (like Newman) who believe that gluten in general is

harmful, and I've heard it referred to as " having toxic effects " ... but that

is another bit of research separate from gluten intolerance, where the

immune system goes haywire in the presence of gluten.

>Well, look at why people are getting turned on to kefir--it helps

>restore the healthy intestinal flora. You eat the food to get the

>microorganisms. So if you're eating lots of gluten, you're probably

>getting lots of fungal organisms, too.

Yeah, and the thing about gluten is that it seem to disable

the villi and digestive juices in the gut. So if food doesn't get

digested properly, it feeds bacteria/fungi/whatever. It would

be interesting though, if it actually is *inhibiting* one set

of bacteria or other microorganisms and then creating

an opening for another set that isn't as friendly to humans.

Not all fungi are bad ... kefir has a few of it's own, and those

fungi seem to be beneficial.

>

>Interesting stuff.

Yeah! I wanted to be a microbiologist when I grew up ...

>

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

Some birds are more grain eaters than others. Chickens are, as you

say, omnivores. It it moves and it's smaller than the first joint of

your thumb, they'll try to eat it. I used to have fun getting chickens

to jump for my by holding nice juicy grasshoppers above their heads.

Amusing and not terribly cruel. I believe that they will also eat mice

if they're in the mood.

Geoffrey

Heidi Schuppenhauer wrote:

> Birds do well on seeds, but here is another tidbit: in " Life without

> Bread "

> Dr. Lutz did an experiment on chickens. Chickens, it seems, get

> athlerosclerosis ...

> and they get it more on a high-grain diet than on a high-meat/fat

> diet! Chickens

> are omnivores, not seed eaters specificially, and they do love meat, so

> they may be a special case.