Re:Organic?/pasture standards

[Guest guest]

Actually the USDA organic standards mandate that all cows/goats/sheep have access to pasture for a minimum of 90 days during the growning season and that the pasture be a minimum of 30% of the ration.  This is one of the things that we are trying to force them to enforce on the aurora dairy as well as a few other huge scale commercial organic dairies.   Also I believe that  you cannot use lutelase anymore but I would have to ask over on the odairy list.  While I applaud the other certification standards there are a great many small farms out there that not only meet those standard but also have small diverse farms without enough income to support the certification process.  Remember to ask your farmer how they do their farming.  If you have concerns find a different farmer.I am not a fan of the USDA standards but they at least are a good start if one only has access to a very few option for foods.AlizaHowever, asking if they are in confinement or pasture raised is NOT an organic standard. Don't get me wrong -- I believe that all rumants need to be out on pasture and have a mostly grass-fed diet. I'm only pointing out that even Certified Organic Milk can still come from grain-pumped cows that never see the light of day and never get to eat a single blade of grass!!!Also, it is 100% true that they cannot use antibiotics and market that cow as organic. While they are required to treat a sick cow with antibiotics if necessary for the cows health, they must either then sell the cow or have two milking herds. Not all hormones are banned. Only growth stimulant type hormones are banned. Hormones that create a cow to cycle on a particular day are (last I checked) still allowed. 

[Guest guest]

I'm going to doublecheck the pasture requirement for myself. Last I

checked it did not require any. But the gov't likes to change things.

Either way 90 days is NOTHING and 30% pasture means still way too

much grain.

aliza wrote:

>

> Actually the USDA organic standards mandate that all

cows/goats/sheep

> have access to pasture for a minimum of 90 days during the

growning

> season and that the pasture be a minimum of 30% of the ration.

This

> is one of the things that we are trying to force them to enforce

on

> the aurora dairy as well as a few other huge scale commercial

organic

> dairies. Also I believe that you cannot use lutelase anymore but

I

> would have to ask over on the odairy list.

>

> While I applaud the other certification standards there are a

great

> many small farms out there that not only meet those standard but

also

> have small diverse farms without enough income to support the

> certification process.

>

> Remember to ask your farmer how they do their farming. If you

have

> concerns find a different farmer.

>

> I am not a fan of the USDA standards but they at least are a good

> start if one only has access to a very few option for foods.

>

> Aliza

>

>

>

> However, asking if they are in confinement or pasture raised is NOT

> an organic standard. Don't get me wrong -- I believe that all

rumants

> need to be out on pasture and have a mostly grass-fed diet. I'm only

> pointing out that even Certified Organic Milk can still come from

> grain-pumped cows that never see the light of day and never get to

> eat a single blade of grass!!!

>

> Also, it is 100% true that they cannot use antibiotics and market

> that cow as organic. While they are required to treat a sick cow

with

> antibiotics if necessary for the cows health, they must either then

> sell the cow or have two milking herds. Not all hormones are banned.

> Only growth stimulant type hormones are banned. Hormones that create

> a cow to cycle on a particular day are (last I checked) still

> allowed.

>

[Guest guest]

You are making an assumption that everything they eat besides the pasture is going to be grain.  While there are some organic dairies out there that are nearly conventional confinement dairies most of the farmers that ship to organic pastures and horizon are just small family farmers who feed pasture and hay mostly with some grain at milking.  I am not here defending the USDA standards or the mega dairies that just slap the organic label on the milk (remember I sell  raw milk from my small local farm).  One thing to understand is that there is a disinformation campaign going on put out by the avery brothers - they are trying to discredit the organic movement in general saying that there is no difference between organic and conventional milk.  There have been long threads on the on the odairy list.  If you want to know what is really happening in the commercial milk market that is the place to go.  Some of the top organic vets in the country hang there as well as the cornucopia institute, organic certifiers, farmers (We even get Mark M occasionally) as well as information from the head of aurora and horizon.  Very diverse group.  This ultimately boils down to doing our best to get the small farmer back in business with healthy organic/humane practices - not just avoiding the use of chemical but actually healing the soils.  Support legislation and legislators that are interested in getting back to small farming - write our new head of the ag committee to abandon NAIS and buy your food from the folks near you that grow it - or better yet start  a small garden yourself.  By the way - in some parts of the country they only have 90 days on pasture but that doesnt mean the cows are stuck in the barn:o)  And really there is no difference between buying organic prego or organic seeds of change (now owned by Mars)  jar sauce.  They do contain all organically grown ingredients (in so far as we can tell LOL) but are a total disaster when it comes to the amount to energy spent to ship all those tomatoes around and process them and then ship them to the store again.  the biggest problem we face as a nation is that we forgot how to make our own food.  We shop at a store and get it from big business.  Making crackers is pretty easy as is pasta, growing tomatoes and basil and even cheese.  That would be a good challenge - every month pick a different food that you purchase from the store ready made and learn how to make it:o)  That would sure shift the market.AlizaOrganic?/pasture standardsPosted by: "Charity " Charity@...   harrisfamilyfarmsThu Dec 7, 2006 10:16 am (PST)I'm going to doublecheck the pasture requirement for myself. Last I checked it did not require any. But the gov't likes to change things. Either way 90 days is NOTHING and 30% pasture means still way too much grain. 

[Guest guest]

True I was assuming the rest would be grain or silage. But is the

requirement PASTURE or FORAGE? Anyways, my biggest problem is that

cows need more than 90 days of sunshine and fresh air. They make

their Vit in their bodies from SUNSHINE. Besides, how pretty is to

find a group of cows outside grazing? I love being in Amish Country

because of all of the cows OUTSIDE and for closer to 300 days a year!

I don't know who that person is that you were referring to but as

much as I don't like the labeling process and the organic standards

IT IS 100% BETTER THAN CONVENTIONAL MILK. Only PASTURE-RAISED RAW

MILK is BETTER!

As for the pasta sauce. I LAUGHED the last time I looked at some on

the shelf. That one brand that has a 1/2 pound of meat in it has a

big logo saying " Made with USDA Inspected Meat " . Well, DUH! If it's

sold over state lnes of course it is. Who are they trying to fool,

what are they trying to prove? Consumers love labels - any label, I

guess.

aliza wrote:

>

> You are making an assumption that everything they eat besides the

> pasture is going to be grain. While there are some organic

dairies

> out there that are nearly conventional confinement dairies most of

> the farmers that ship to organic pastures and horizon are just

small

> family farmers who feed pasture and hay mostly with some grain at

> milking. I am not here defending the USDA standards or the mega

> dairies that just slap the organic label on the milk (remember I

> sell raw milk from my small local farm). One thing to understand

is

> that there is a disinformation campaign going on put out by the

avery

> brothers - they are trying to discredit the organic movement in

> general saying that there is no difference between organic and

> conventional milk. There have been long threads on the on the

odairy

> list.

> This ultimately boils down to doing our best to get the small

farmer

> back in business with healthy organic/humane practices - not just

> avoiding the use of chemical but actually healing the soils.

Support

> legislation and legislators that are interested in getting back to

> small farming - write our new head of the ag committee to abandon

> NAIS and buy your food from the folks near you that grow it - or

> better yet start a small garden yourself.

>

> By the way - in some parts of the country they only have 90 days

on

> pasture but that doesnt mean the cows are stuck in the barn:o)

And

> really there is no difference between buying organic prego or

organic

> seeds of change (now owned by Mars) jar sauce. They do contain

all

> organically grown ingredients (in so far as we can tell LOL) but

are

> a total disaster when it comes to the amount to energy spent to

ship

> all those tomatoes around and process them and then ship them to

the

> store again. the biggest problem we face as a nation is that we

> forgot how to make our own food. We shop at a store and get it

from

> big business. Making crackers is pretty easy as is pasta, growing

> tomatoes and basil and even cheese. That would be a good

challenge -

> every month pick a different food that you purchase from the store

> ready made and learn how to make it:o) That would sure shift the

> market.

>

> Aliza

>

>

> Organic?/pasture standards

> Posted by: " Charity " Charity@...

> harrisfamilyfarms

> Thu Dec 7, 2006 10:16 am (PST)

>

> I'm going to doublecheck the pasture requirement for myself. Last I

> checked it did not require any. But the gov't likes to change

things.

> Either way 90 days is NOTHING and 30% pasture means still way too

> much grain.

>

[Guest guest]

Oh my goodness, don't any of you farm where it gets winter time?

Where it freezes or snows, or the grass just don't grow from first

frost to last frost? Most of the country there isn't going to be ANY

pasture for many months of the year due to weather/climate conditions.

Lord knows if it does what it's supposed to do in the dairy state of

Wisconsin and snows????? Then those poor old cows sure don't get any

grazing. I read where in Michagan the big decision of the day is do

I turn the cows out and risk frost bitten teats falling off? Or do I

leave them inside???

All I can tell you about is Eastern Tennessee from my personal

experiences. On average we won't have any 'pasture' growing here

from November 1 until April 1. Too darned cold, wet and hock deep in

mud. You might get a few extra months out of sowing rye, wheat,

oats?? and turn in on that if it don't get too cold. So, you feed

hay or they starve.

Generally we don't turn the cows in on pasture in spring until

it's at least up over our ankles, and that can be as late as May 15

depending upon weather or as early as April 15. Cows are outside

during the time that pasture is not growing, but they are eating hay

the entire time. In general we 'sacrifice' a field that's going to

get chewed to bits by all that foot traffic and then we resow it

later.

The reality of pasture here in Eastern Tennessee is that in March

the grass does start to grow a bit, in April it's flush with water

and growing lushly so cows are going to be starving to death with a

belly full of water. In May it toughens up and is finally GOOD

feed. In June the rain stops and the cows get ahead of the grass

growing. In July, August we pray it rains enough to not burn us

plumb up and cows are doing OK but the shine is off the pastures for

sure. In September it may rain some to give us a bit of relief but

pasture is pretty well gone and weedy. October is our driest month,

so don't look for any relief there. And, finally, if we are blessed

we get a bit of rain in November and not too cold (average date of

first frost is Halloween) so grass will grow until a bitter cold

stops it in December or January. That's REALITY and no amount of

legislation and name calling is going to change it, either.

Now, if you had all the money in the world to buy all the land you

needed you could 'stockpile' pasture by allowing it to grow up and

then turn in on it as you needed it. But, that's not reality. Or

you could irrigate. But, again, that's not reality around here. Or

you could intensive graze, that is doable, but you still have

November to April without any pasture. And, it still is going to be

hot and dry in the summer.

I love all the discussion though by the arm chair farmers out

there. Wish I could have them all follow me around for a couple of

months to see what reality is like for a goat, a cow or a farmer.

LOL

Donna

Safehaven Nubians

Dandridge, TN

[Guest guest]

I was wondering when this was going to come out. We are pretty much the same

up here in Central WA state. We do irrigate and even with that we have to

rotate the cows every 2 weeks or so. But this year the cows got ahead of the

pasture early and we started feeding hay in Sept!!. Don't usually have to do

that until late OCT.

On another note Donna, it is so cold here that we can't go outside today. I

was planning to can some milk. Can't find my instructions. Do you have a

step by step on how to pressure can milk you could send me? Please send

privately to goatsrus@... if you have this. I can't even remember how

to use my pressure canner it's been so long since I canned milk.

Jessi

LHR Manufacturing

Setting The Standard for Portable Milking Machines

http://www.milking-machines.com

[Guest guest]

We've not had any problem with " hock deep in mud " but the grass does

stop growing in Nov/Dec. Our cows are out on pasture with hay from

then until they turn their noses up at the hay and go for the grass.

Works for us.

Belinda

>

> Oh my goodness, don't any of you farm where it gets winter time?

> Where it freezes or snows, or the grass just don't grow from first

> frost to last frost? Most of the country there isn't going to be ANY

> pasture for many months of the year due to weather/climate conditions.

> Lord knows if it does what it's supposed to do in the dairy state of

> Wisconsin and snows????? Then those poor old cows sure don't get any

> grazing. I read where in Michagan the big decision of the day is do

> I turn the cows out and risk frost bitten teats falling off? Or do I

> leave them inside???

> All I can tell you about is Eastern Tennessee from my personal

> experiences. On average we won't have any 'pasture' growing here

> from November 1 until April 1. Too darned cold, wet and hock deep in

> mud. You might get a few extra months out of sowing rye, wheat,

> oats?? and turn in on that if it don't get too cold. So, you feed

> hay or they starve.

> Generally we don't turn the cows in on pasture in spring until

> it's at least up over our ankles, and that can be as late as May 15

> depending upon weather or as early as April 15. Cows are outside

> during the time that pasture is not growing, but they are eating hay

> the entire time. In general we 'sacrifice' a field that's going to

> get chewed to bits by all that foot traffic and then we resow it

> later.

> The reality of pasture here in Eastern Tennessee is that in March

> the grass does start to grow a bit, in April it's flush with water

> and growing lushly so cows are going to be starving to death with a

> belly full of water. In May it toughens up and is finally GOOD

> feed. In June the rain stops and the cows get ahead of the grass

> growing. In July, August we pray it rains enough to not burn us

> plumb up and cows are doing OK but the shine is off the pastures for

> sure. In September it may rain some to give us a bit of relief but

> pasture is pretty well gone and weedy. October is our driest month,

> so don't look for any relief there. And, finally, if we are blessed

> we get a bit of rain in November and not too cold (average date of

> first frost is Halloween) so grass will grow until a bitter cold

> stops it in December or January. That's REALITY and no amount of

> legislation and name calling is going to change it, either.

> Now, if you had all the money in the world to buy all the land you

> needed you could 'stockpile' pasture by allowing it to grow up and

> then turn in on it as you needed it. But, that's not reality. Or

> you could irrigate. But, again, that's not reality around here. Or

> you could intensive graze, that is doable, but you still have

> November to April without any pasture. And, it still is going to be

> hot and dry in the summer.

> I love all the discussion though by the arm chair farmers out

> there. Wish I could have them all follow me around for a couple of

> months to see what reality is like for a goat, a cow or a farmer.

> LOL

>

> Donna

> Safehaven Nubians

> Dandridge, TN

>

[Guest guest]

There is a difference between pasture for food and pasture for fresh

air & sunshine. The sunshine is how cows & people create Vit D in

their bodies.

I am dead smack in the middle of Wisconsin. We had snow during

Thanksgiving. But cows still like to go outside in all but the worst

of weather. You can feed them hay in the pasture and provide them

with shelter. When the windchill is below zero even during the day, I

like to see them come into a real barn though and thats really only

about 65 days of the winter, if you watch the weather every day.

I may not have goats yet but, we have plenty of pigs, cows and

chickens.

" Donna R. Myers-Raybon " wrote:

>

> Oh my goodness, don't any of you farm where it gets winter

time?

> Where it freezes or snows, or the grass just don't grow from first

> frost to last frost? Most of the country there isn't going to be

ANY

> pasture for many months of the year due to weather/climate

conditions.

> Lord knows if it does what it's supposed to do in the dairy state

of

> Wisconsin and snows????? Then those poor old cows sure don't get

any

> grazing. I read where in Michagan the big decision of the day is

do

> I turn the cows out and risk frost bitten teats falling off? Or do

I

> leave them inside???

> All I can tell you about is Eastern Tennessee from my personal

> experiences. On average we won't have any 'pasture' growing here

> from November 1 until April 1. Too darned cold, wet and hock deep

in

> mud. You might get a few extra months out of sowing rye, wheat,

> oats?? and turn in on that if it don't get too cold. So, you feed

> hay or they starve.

> Generally we don't turn the cows in on pasture in spring until

> it's at least up over our ankles, and that can be as late as May 15

> depending upon weather or as early as April 15. Cows are outside

> during the time that pasture is not growing, but they are eating

hay

> the entire time. In general we 'sacrifice' a field that's going to

> get chewed to bits by all that foot traffic and then we resow it

> later.

> The reality of pasture here in Eastern Tennessee is that in

March

> the grass does start to grow a bit, in April it's flush with water

> and growing lushly so cows are going to be starving to death with a

> belly full of water. In May it toughens up and is finally GOOD

> feed. In June the rain stops and the cows get ahead of the grass

> growing. In July, August we pray it rains enough to not burn us

> plumb up and cows are doing OK but the shine is off the pastures

for

> sure. In September it may rain some to give us a bit of relief but

> pasture is pretty well gone and weedy. October is our driest

month,

> so don't look for any relief there. And, finally, if we are

blessed

> we get a bit of rain in November and not too cold (average date of

> first frost is Halloween) so grass will grow until a bitter cold

> stops it in December or January. That's REALITY and no amount of

> legislation and name calling is going to change it, either.

> Now, if you had all the money in the world to buy all the land

you

> needed you could 'stockpile' pasture by allowing it to grow up and

> then turn in on it as you needed it. But, that's not reality. Or

> you could irrigate. But, again, that's not reality around here.

Or

> you could intensive graze, that is doable, but you still have

> November to April without any pasture. And, it still is going to

be

> hot and dry in the summer.

> I love all the discussion though by the arm chair farmers out

> there. Wish I could have them all follow me around for a couple of

> months to see what reality is like for a goat, a cow or a farmer.

> LOL

>

> Donna

> Safehaven Nubians

> Dandridge, TN

>

[Guest guest]

That's what I'm talking about!

" labelleacres " wrote:

>

> We've not had any problem with " hock deep in mud " but the grass does

> stop growing in Nov/Dec. Our cows are out on pasture with hay from

> then until they turn their noses up at the hay and go for the grass.

>

> Works for us.

>

> Belinda

[Guest guest]

But I don't understand the " we don't turn them out on the new grass "

thing that folks talk about. Our boys and girls are out on new and old

grass all the time and I've not noticed it doing them any harm. Is

this only a problem when you have animals locked in a small area? They

might then be tempted to overeat the good stuff once you finally let

them out?

Belinda

> That's what I'm talking about!

>

> " labelleacres " <bilherbs@> wrote:

> >

> > We've not had any problem with " hock deep in mud " but the grass does

> > stop growing in Nov/Dec. Our cows are out on pasture with hay from

> > then until they turn their noses up at the hay and go for the grass.

> >

> > Works for us.

> >

> > Belinda

>

[Guest guest]

Charity!That reminds me....keep me in mind when you get pheasants!! It's been AGES since I've had smoked pheasant and would love to pre-order with you if possible!!Sharon, NH

There is a difference between pasture for food and pasture for fresh

air & sunshine. The sunshine is how cows & people create Vit D in

their bodies.

I am dead smack in the middle of Wisconsin. We had snow during

Thanksgiving. But cows still like to go outside in all but the worst

of weather. You can feed them hay in the pasture and provide them

with shelter. When the windchill is below zero even during the day, I

like to see them come into a real barn though and thats really only

about 65 days of the winter, if you watch the weather every day.

I may not have goats yet but, we have plenty of pigs, cows and

chickens.

" Donna R. Myers-Raybon " wrote:

>

> Oh my goodness, don't any of you farm where it gets winter

time?

> Where it freezes or snows, or the grass just don't grow from first

> frost to last frost? Most of the country there isn't going to be

ANY

> pasture for many months of the year due to weather/climate

conditions.

> Lord knows if it does what it's supposed to do in the dairy state

of

> Wisconsin and snows????? Then those poor old cows sure don't get

any

> grazing. I read where in Michagan the big decision of the day is

do

> I turn the cows out and risk frost bitten teats falling off? Or do

I

> leave them inside???

> All I can tell you about is Eastern Tennessee from my personal

> experiences. On average we won't have any 'pasture' growing here

> from November 1 until April 1. Too darned cold, wet and hock deep

in

> mud. You might get a few extra months out of sowing rye, wheat,

> oats?? and turn in on that if it don't get too cold. So, you feed

> hay or they starve.

> Generally we don't turn the cows in on pasture in spring until

> it's at least up over our ankles, and that can be as late as May 15

> depending upon weather or as early as April 15. Cows are outside

> during the time that pasture is not growing, but they are eating

hay

> the entire time. In general we 'sacrifice' a field that's going to

> get chewed to bits by all that foot traffic and then we resow it

> later.

> The reality of pasture here in Eastern Tennessee is that in

March

> the grass does start to grow a bit, in April it's flush with water

> and growing lushly so cows are going to be starving to death with a

> belly full of water. In May it toughens up and is finally GOOD

> feed. In June the rain stops and the cows get ahead of the grass

> growing. In July, August we pray it rains enough to not burn us

> plumb up and cows are doing OK but the shine is off the pastures

for

> sure. In September it may rain some to give us a bit of relief but

> pasture is pretty well gone and weedy. October is our driest

month,

> so don't look for any relief there. And, finally, if we are

blessed

> we get a bit of rain in November and not too cold (average date of

> first frost is Halloween) so grass will grow until a bitter cold

> stops it in December or January. That's REALITY and no amount of

> legislation and name calling is going to change it, either.

> Now, if you had all the money in the world to buy all the land

you

> needed you could 'stockpile' pasture by allowing it to grow up and

> then turn in on it as you needed it. But, that's not reality. Or

> you could irrigate. But, again, that's not reality around here.

Or

> you could intensive graze, that is doable, but you still have

> November to April without any pasture. And, it still is going to

be

> hot and dry in the summer.

> I love all the discussion though by the arm chair farmers out

> there. Wish I could have them all follow me around for a couple of

> months to see what reality is like for a goat, a cow or a farmer.

> LOL

>

> Donna

> Safehaven Nubians

> Dandridge, TN

>

-- Deut 11:14 He will put grass in the fields for your cattle, and you will have plenty to eat.

[Guest guest]

Hmmm , I believe you are talking about working smart, not hard.

Belinda

>

> > Oh my goodness, don't any of you farm where it

> > gets winter time?

> > Where it freezes or snows, or the grass just don't

> > grow from first

> > frost to last frost? Most of the country there

> > isn't going to be ANY

> > pasture for many months of the year due to

> > weather/climate conditions.

> > Lord knows if it does what it's supposed to do in

> > the dairy state of

> > Wisconsin and snows????? Then those poor old cows

> > sure don't get any

> > grazing. I read where in Michagan the big decision

> > of the day is do

> > I turn the cows out and risk frost bitten teats

> > falling off? Or do I

> > leave them inside???

> > All I can tell you about is Eastern Tennessee

> > from my personal

> > experiences. On average we won't have any 'pasture'

> > growing here

> > from November 1 until April 1. Too darned cold, wet

> > and hock deep in

> > mud. You might get a few extra months out of sowing

> > rye, wheat,

> > oats?? and turn in on that if it don't get too

> > cold. So, you feed

> > hay or they starve.

> > Generally we don't turn the cows in on pasture

> > in spring until

> > it's at least up over our ankles, and that can be as

> > late as May 15

> > depending upon weather or as early as April 15.

> > Cows are outside

> > during the time that pasture is not growing, but

> > they are eating hay

> > the entire time. In general we 'sacrifice' a field

> > that's going to

> > get chewed to bits by all that foot traffic and then

> > we resow it

> > later.

> > The reality of pasture here in Eastern Tennessee

> > is that in March

> > the grass does start to grow a bit, in April it's

> > flush with water

> > and growing lushly so cows are going to be starving

> > to death with a

> > belly full of water. In May it toughens up and is

> > finally GOOD

> > feed. In June the rain stops and the cows get ahead

> > of the grass

> > growing. In July, August we pray it rains enough to

> > not burn us

> > plumb up and cows are doing OK but the shine is off

> > the pastures for

> > sure. In September it may rain some to give us a

> > bit of relief but

> > pasture is pretty well gone and weedy. October is

> > our driest month,

> > so don't look for any relief there. And, finally,

> > if we are blessed

> > we get a bit of rain in November and not too cold

> > (average date of

> > first frost is Halloween) so grass will grow until a

> > bitter cold

> > stops it in December or January. That's REALITY and

> > no amount of

> > legislation and name calling is going to change it,

> > either.

> > Now, if you had all the money in the world to buy

> > all the land you

> > needed you could 'stockpile' pasture by allowing it

> > to grow up and

> > then turn in on it as you needed it. But, that's

> > not reality.

> > I love all the discussion though by the arm chair

> > farmers out

> > there. Wish I could have them all follow me around

> > for a couple of

> > months to see what reality is like for a goat, a cow

> > or a farmer.

> > LOL

> >

> > Donna

> > Safehaven Nubians

> > Dandridge, TN

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

________________________________________________________________________________\

____

> Any questions? Get answers on any topic at www.Answers.yahoo.com.

Try it now.

>

[Guest guest]

,

Are you sure you were suppossed to direct that towards me? I don't

think any of my comments would result in your comments. I was the one

saying that the cows CAN and SHOULD be outside in the winter. And I

am in the middle of Wisconsin. Of course, they do need access to

shelter but, i said that as well.

Maybe with my wondering who she was trying to insult by calling them

armchair farmers. Is that why you directed it to me?

I have no problem admiting that I do a LOT of research but, she said

that armchair farmers were not REAL farmers and that I had a problem

with. I do not own a 400 cow dairy but, we have beef cows, pigs and

chickens. We sell on www.localharvest.com and this summer we will be

up to 4 different farmers markets. We are wanting to add a few dairy

cows then sheep and goats as well (waiting for the cash flow to buy

them).

Just because I do research and go to grad school for Sustainable

Agriculture does not mean that I'm not a real farmer. I get enough of

that from my in-laws (who conventionally grow crops) who think my

hubby and I are destined for failure because we do not farm

conventionally. In contrast, we do better every month.

wrote:

>

> Charity,

> I understand what Donna is saying.I have been in

> that situation with 35 milkcows on 20 acres of

> pasture.The answer for me was to cut back on the

> number of cows and increase the pasture by not growing

> grain. Now I keep 18 cows on 40 acres of pasture.This

> allows pasture to be stockpiled for winter grazing. As

> Nation says " up here in the north you've got the

> advantage of 5 0r 6 months of free concrete " .That

> frozen ground together with the root structure in sod

> that hasn't been plowed for many years gets us through

> the winter just fine without mud.The milk cows have

> the free run of 30 acres all winter.They also have

> access to a bank barn with thick ,dry, clean bedding.

> They have plenty of good quality first and 2nd cutting

> hay. They spend all but the worst weather

> outside.Reality is that I get less milk this way,but I

> have reduced expenses and improved the health of the

> cows and therefore the quality of the milk. I have

> learned that it is better not to push the cows for

> higher production ,but to deal with people who

> appreciate quality and are willing to pay what it

> costs.

> As for being an armchair farmer,I accept that

> label proudly.Before I started using my brain,I busted

> my butt many times trying to keep up with all of the

> work. What I am doing now is a lot more fun and more

> profitable.

> Th best advice I ever got was to take the time

> often to contemplate nature.That is where you will

> find the answers to your questions. Nature is the

> model for sustainable and efficient agriculture.

> michael in michigan

>

> Donna,

>

> What is a frost bitten teat?I've never met a cow

> that, given a choice, would sleep somewhere where her

> teats would freeze.

>

> --- " Donna R. Myers-Raybon "

> wrote:

>

> > Oh my goodness, don't any of you farm where it

> > gets winter time?

> > Where it freezes or snows, or the grass just don't

> > grow from first

> > frost to last frost? Most of the country there

> > isn't going to be ANY

> > pasture for many months of the year due to

> > weather/climate conditions.

> > Lord knows if it does what it's supposed to do in

> > the dairy state of

> > Wisconsin and snows????? Then those poor old cows

> > sure don't get any

> > grazing. I read where in Michagan the big decision

> > of the day is do

> > I turn the cows out and risk frost bitten teats

> > falling off? Or do I

> > leave them inside???

> > All I can tell you about is Eastern Tennessee

> > from my personal

> > experiences. On average we won't have any 'pasture'

> > growing here

> > from November 1 until April 1. Too darned cold, wet

> > and hock deep in

> > mud. You might get a few extra months out of sowing

> > rye, wheat,

> > oats?? and turn in on that if it don't get too

> > cold. So, you feed

> > hay or they starve.

> > Generally we don't turn the cows in on pasture

> > in spring until

> > it's at least up over our ankles, and that can be as

> > late as May 15

> > depending upon weather or as early as April 15.

> > Cows are outside

> > during the time that pasture is not growing, but

> > they are eating hay

> > the entire time. In general we 'sacrifice' a field

> > that's going to

> > get chewed to bits by all that foot traffic and then

> > we resow it

> > later.

> > The reality of pasture here in Eastern Tennessee

> > is that in March

> > the grass does start to grow a bit, in April it's

> > flush with water

> > and growing lushly so cows are going to be starving

> > to death with a

> > belly full of water. In May it toughens up and is

> > finally GOOD

> > feed. In June the rain stops and the cows get ahead

> > of the grass

> > growing. In July, August we pray it rains enough to

> > not burn us

> > plumb up and cows are doing OK but the shine is off

> > the pastures for

> > sure. In September it may rain some to give us a

> > bit of relief but

> > pasture is pretty well gone and weedy. October is

> > our driest month,

> > so don't look for any relief there. And, finally,

> > if we are blessed

> > we get a bit of rain in November and not too cold

> > (average date of

> > first frost is Halloween) so grass will grow until a

> > bitter cold

> > stops it in December or January. That's REALITY and

> > no amount of

> > legislation and name calling is going to change it,

> > either.

> > Now, if you had all the money in the world to buy

> > all the land you

> > needed you could 'stockpile' pasture by allowing it

> > to grow up and

> > then turn in on it as you needed it. But, that's

> > not reality.

> > I love all the discussion though by the arm chair

> > farmers out

> > there. Wish I could have them all follow me around

> > for a couple of

> > months to see what reality is like for a goat, a cow

> > or a farmer.

> > LOL

> >

> > Donna

> > Safehaven Nubians

> > Dandridge, TN

[Guest guest]

Charity,

I'm sorry. I thought Donna was responding to

something you posted. I disagree with the things she

said and I couldn't help responding to them.I didn't

want you to take the bad advice from her. My amish

neighbors ridiculed us for years,but they aren't

laughing anymore.

--- Charity

wrote:

> ,

>

> Are you sure you were suppossed to direct that

> towards me? I don't

> think any of my comments would result in your

> comments. I was the one

> saying that the cows CAN and SHOULD be outside in

> the winter. And I

> am in the middle of Wisconsin. Of course, they do

> need access to

> shelter but, i said that as well.

>

> Maybe with my wondering who she was trying to insult

> by calling them

> armchair farmers. Is that why you directed it to me?

>

>

> I have no problem admiting that I do a LOT of

> research but, she said

> that armchair farmers were not REAL farmers and that

> I had a problem

> with. I do not own a 400 cow dairy but, we have beef

> cows, pigs and

> chickens. We sell on www.localharvest.com and this

> summer we will be

> up to 4 different farmers markets. We are wanting to

> add a few dairy

> cows then sheep and goats as well (waiting for the

> cash flow to buy

> them).

>

> Just because I do research and go to grad school for

> Sustainable

> Agriculture does not mean that I'm not a real

> farmer. I get enough of

> that from my in-laws (who conventionally grow crops)

> who think my

> hubby and I are destined for failure because we do

> not farm

> conventionally. In contrast, we do better every

> month.

>

> wrote:

> >

> > Charity,

> > I understand what Donna is saying.I have been

> in

> > that situation with 35 milkcows on 20 acres of

> > pasture.The answer for me was to cut back on the

> > number of cows and increase the pasture by not

> growing

> > grain. Now I keep 18 cows on 40 acres of

> pasture.This

> > allows pasture to be stockpiled for winter

> grazing. As

> > Nation says " up here in the north you've got

> the

> > advantage of 5 0r 6 months of free concrete " .That

> > frozen ground together with the root structure in

> sod

> > that hasn't been plowed for many years gets us

> through

> > the winter just fine without mud.The milk cows

> have

> > the free run of 30 acres all winter.They also have

> > access to a bank barn with thick ,dry, clean

> bedding.

> > They have plenty of good quality first and 2nd

> cutting

> > hay. They spend all but the worst weather

> > outside.Reality is that I get less milk this

> way,but I

> > have reduced expenses and improved the health of

> the

> > cows and therefore the quality of the milk. I have

> > learned that it is better not to push the cows for

> > higher production ,but to deal with people who

> > appreciate quality and are willing to pay what it

> > costs.

> > As for being an armchair farmer,I accept that

> > label proudly.Before I started using my brain,I

> busted

> > my butt many times trying to keep up with all of

> the

> > work. What I am doing now is a lot more fun and

> more

> > profitable.

> > Th best advice I ever got was to take the time

> > often to contemplate nature.That is where you will

> > find the answers to your questions. Nature is the

> > model for sustainable and efficient agriculture.

> > michael in michigan

> >

> > Donna,

> >

> > What is a frost bitten teat?I've never met a

> cow

> > that, given a choice, would sleep somewhere where

> her

> > teats would freeze.

> >

> > --- " Donna R. Myers-Raybon "

> > wrote:

> >

> > > Oh my goodness, don't any of you farm where

> it

> > > gets winter time?

> > > Where it freezes or snows, or the grass just

> don't

> > > grow from first

> > > frost to last frost? Most of the country there

> > > isn't going to be ANY

> > > pasture for many months of the year due to

> > > weather/climate conditions.

> > > Lord knows if it does what it's supposed to do

> in

> > > the dairy state of

> > > Wisconsin and snows????? Then those poor old

> cows

> > > sure don't get any

> > > grazing. I read where in Michagan the big

> decision

> > > of the day is do

> > > I turn the cows out and risk frost bitten teats

> > > falling off? Or do I

> > > leave them inside???

> > > All I can tell you about is Eastern

> Tennessee

> > > from my personal

> > > experiences. On average we won't have any

> 'pasture'

> > > growing here

> > > from November 1 until April 1. Too darned cold,

> wet

> > > and hock deep in

> > > mud. You might get a few extra months out of

> sowing

> > > rye, wheat,

> > > oats?? and turn in on that if it don't get too

> > > cold. So, you feed

> > > hay or they starve.

> > > Generally we don't turn the cows in on

> pasture

> > > in spring until

> > > it's at least up over our ankles, and that can

> be as

> > > late as May 15

> > > depending upon weather or as early as April 15.

> > > Cows are outside

> > > during the time that pasture is not growing, but

> > > they are eating hay

> > > the entire time. In general we 'sacrifice' a

> field

> > > that's going to

> > > get chewed to bits by all that foot traffic and

> then

> > > we resow it

> > > later.

> > > The reality of pasture here in Eastern

> Tennessee

> > > is that in March

> > > the grass does start to grow a bit, in April

> it's

> > > flush with water

> > > and growing lushly so cows are going to be

> starving

> > > to death with a

> > > belly full of water. In May it toughens up and

> is

> > > finally GOOD

> > > feed. In June the rain stops and the cows get

> ahead

> > > of the grass

> > > growing. In July, August we pray it rains

> enough to

> > > not burn us

> > > plumb up and cows are doing OK but the shine is

> off

> > > the pastures for

> > > sure. In September it may rain some to give us

> a

> > > bit of relief but

> > > pasture is pretty well gone and weedy. October

> is

> > > our driest month,

> > > so don't look for any relief there. And,

> finally,

> > > if we are blessed

> > > we get a bit of rain in November and not too

> cold

> > > (average date of

> > > first frost is Halloween) so grass will grow

> until a

> > > bitter cold

> > > stops it in December or January. That's REALITY

> and

> > > no amount of

> > > legislation and name calling is going to change

> it,

> > > either.

> > > Now, if you had all the money in the world to

> buy

>

=== message truncated ===

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[Guest guest]

I think she was trying to but, it made no sense to me. I had said

that cows should be allowed outside year-round and that organic

standards only require 90 days which is nothing in the life of a cow.

I think she misunderstood and thought I was saying they should graze

and receive their food from pasture year-round, which is nearly

impossible. I meant that they simply should be allowed outside and if

need be, their hay brought to them.

I'm in grad school for Sustainable agriculture, I'm also learning

about biodynamic farming and have the animals best interest at heart

at all times. I think this is why she called me an armchair farmer

(meaning nothing but books) but, as a teen I competed in barrel

racing, trained barrels horses, worked for a trainer at a real

racetrack in TX and raised chickens. My hubby grew up on a

conventional crop farm. And we have pigs, cows and birds. I guess I

was offended to think (that she thought) that people that read can't

be farmers.

That's why your post confused me.

wrote:

>

> Charity,

> I'm sorry. I thought Donna was responding to

> something you posted. I disagree with the things she

> said and I couldn't help responding to them.I didn't

> want you to take the bad advice from her. My amish

> neighbors ridiculed us for years,but they aren't

> laughing anymore.

> --- Charity

> wrote:

>

> > ,

> >

> > Are you sure you were suppossed to direct that

> > towards me? I don't

> > think any of my comments would result in your

> > comments. I was the one

> > saying that the cows CAN and SHOULD be outside in

> > the winter. And I

> > am in the middle of Wisconsin. Of course, they do

> > need access to

> > shelter but, i said that as well.

> >

> > Maybe with my wondering who she was trying to insult

> > by calling them

> > armchair farmers. Is that why you directed it to me?

> >

> >

> > I have no problem admiting that I do a LOT of

> > research but, she said

> > that armchair farmers were not REAL farmers and that

> > I had a problem

> > with. I do not own a 400 cow dairy but, we have beef

> > cows, pigs and

> > chickens. We sell on www.localharvest.com and this

> > summer we will be

> > up to 4 different farmers markets. We are wanting to

> > add a few dairy

> > cows then sheep and goats as well (waiting for the

> > cash flow to buy

> > them).

> >

> > Just because I do research and go to grad school for

> > Sustainable

> > Agriculture does not mean that I'm not a real

> > farmer. I get enough of

> > that from my in-laws (who conventionally grow crops)

> > who think my

> > hubby and I are destined for failure because we do

> > not farm

> > conventionally. In contrast, we do better every

> > month.

> >

> > <mrwlsn@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Charity,

> > > I understand what Donna is saying.I have been

> > in

> > > that situation with 35 milkcows on 20 acres of

> > > pasture.The answer for me was to cut back on the

> > > number of cows and increase the pasture by not

> > growing

> > > grain. Now I keep 18 cows on 40 acres of

> > pasture.This

> > > allows pasture to be stockpiled for winter

> > grazing. As

> > > Nation says " up here in the north you've got

> > the

> > > advantage of 5 0r 6 months of free concrete " .That

> > > frozen ground together with the root structure in

> > sod

> > > that hasn't been plowed for many years gets us

> > through

> > > the winter just fine without mud.The milk cows

> > have

> > > the free run of 30 acres all winter.They also have

> > > access to a bank barn with thick ,dry, clean

> > bedding.

> > > They have plenty of good quality first and 2nd

> > cutting

> > > hay. They spend all but the worst weather

> > > outside.Reality is that I get less milk this

> > way,but I

> > > have reduced expenses and improved the health of

> > the

> > > cows and therefore the quality of the milk. I have

> > > learned that it is better not to push the cows for

> > > higher production ,but to deal with people who

> > > appreciate quality and are willing to pay what it

> > > costs.

> > > As for being an armchair farmer,I accept that

> > > label proudly.Before I started using my brain,I

> > busted

> > > my butt many times trying to keep up with all of

> > the

> > > work. What I am doing now is a lot more fun and

> > more

> > > profitable.

> > > Th best advice I ever got was to take the time

> > > often to contemplate nature.That is where you will

> > > find the answers to your questions. Nature is the

> > > model for sustainable and efficient agriculture.

> > > michael in michigan

> > >

> > > Donna,

> > >

> > > What is a frost bitten teat?I've never met a

> > cow

> > > that, given a choice, would sleep somewhere where

> > her

> > > teats would freeze.