Re: Re: Help! Got sick on raw milk!

[Guest guest]

I would not buy raw milk from this farm for my animals, much less for my family and I have to wonder why YOU would. To be really honest, your story that sounds very fishy to me. Not everyone who signs up for a RawDairy discussion group really is in favor of raw milk and some will crop up to cause problems. You've just crossed that line for me as I cannot imagine any rational human being continuing to buy from a place who did as you describe below. Just my opinion.

If you ARE legit, this is not a safe place to buy milk. Stop drinking it immediately and find another source that follows healthy practices in the care of their animals *and* in sanitization.

..When I called and asked if they are told actual bacteriams, she saidno. They haven't done a culture either. She's not sure where or howto have that done. They do sell to another party. They've not had

the trouble we have. To be honest, I thought the conditions were notsanitary. They have about a hundred head on about ten acres. Theyare feedlot. Lots of standing manure and urine. The cows came in atten at a time to be milked. They would spray the teats, milk them

then iodine the teats. I did see from time to time that the milkmachine (sorry, I don't know the terms!), would loose suction and comeoff and hit the cement..which was full of manure. They didn't washthe 'milk suckers' off before re-applying them. The rest of us have 'gotten over' our bug. I'm thinking our bodieshave built up an anti-body base against these particular bacterias. My husband wants to keep drinking it. I'm at a total loss.Thanx,

robin -- in OklahomaConcharty English Shepherds

http://www.concharty.comInterested in working from home?http://karencline.thewhycircle.com/

[Guest guest]



Now I have to wonder if you are for real! "gentle heating of the milk at home" What you are suggesting is absurd. This is a Raw Dairy list. We are trying to promote and discuss Clean Raw Milk, where to get it and what to do with it.. Buying milk from an Un-Safe / Un-clean source then pasteurizing it ridicules! That is exactly what you get in the store nowadays. Telling someone to keep buying it (dirty milk) then pasteurize it is asking for trouble.

We have a dairy and it is clean! If an inflation falls off during milking the whole batch is out! Period! If "I" won't drink it I will not save it. At this point it becomes 'animal feed'. We use a pipeline system too but it is very clean.

Here is what I found on a quick search on the milk and how to pasteurize it: (defeats the purpose of raw don't you think)

http://www.fcs.msue.msu.edu/ff/pdffiles/foodsafety2.pdf

Campylobacter jejuni. This organism, isolated in raw milk and meat, can cause mastitis in dairy cattle. It has also been isolated in the feces of many species including dogs, cats, rodents, cattle, sheep, swine, and poultry. Symptoms include vomiting, cramps, bloody diarrhea, mild enteritis, or severe enterocolitis. Individuals who have recovered from the disease may suffer a relapse. Campylobacter jejuni is destroyed by pasteurization.

Pasteurization destroys most disease producing organisms and limits fermentation in milk, beer, and other liquids by partial or complete sterilization. The pasteurization process heats milk to 161 degrees Fahrenheit (63 degrees centigrade) for 15 seconds, inactivating or killing organisms that grow rapidly in milk. Pasteurization does not destroy organisms that grow slowly or produce spores.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasteurization

Jessi

Lucky Hook Dairy

-----Original Message-----From: RawDairy [mailto:RawDairy ]On Behalf Of Laurie Ann Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2006 4:28 PMTo: RawDairy Subject: Re: Help! Got sick on raw milk!I'd like to mention a few things:1. Commercial pasteurization and homogenization are much different than gentle heating of the milk at home, and you might try home pasteurization as a temporary solution. That will be much healthier than anything in the store.

[Guest guest]

Hi ;

I am very interested in being able to document the prison story? Can you

quote a source that I can look up?

Jessi

LHR Manufacturing

Setting The Standard for Portable Milking Machines

http://www.milking-machines.com

Re: Help! Got sick on raw milk!

Mr. Mathis assumed that the milk was for the prison farm pigs, but it

wasn't. It went

directly to a cooler in the prison dining hall, complete with cow and fly

manure and fly

carcasses. It was simply strained through the cooler and then drunk by the

prisoners. No

case of pathogenic contamination occurred that was caused by the raw milk in

10 years. If

raw milk is such a danger, why didn't any one get sick?

Good luck,

D.

moderator

[Guest guest]

Better Yet due to thier Drier pelletized (Berries) manure Caprines

(Goats) are better and easier to get /keep clean for raw milk

purposes than Bovines

so Its usually safer to drink RAW goat milk than ANY Other milk esp

DEAD store Milk but still you need to be clean there too

Cline wrote:

I would not buy raw milk from this farm for my animals, much

less for my family and I have to wonder why YOU would. To be really

honest, your story that sounds very fishy to me. Not everyone who

signs up for a RawDairy discussion group really is in favor of raw milk

and some will crop up to cause problems. You've just crossed that

line for me as I cannot imagine any rational human being continuing to

buy from a place who did as you describe below. Just my opinion.

If you ARE legit, this is not a safe place to buy milk. Stop

drinking it immediately and find another source that follows healthy

practices in the care of their animals *and* in sanitization.

On 10/31/06, mrsflib <rjsomersruraltel (DOT) net>

wrote:

..

When I called and asked if they are told actual bacteriams, she said

no. They haven't done a culture either. She's not sure where or how

to have that done. They do sell to another party. They've not had

the trouble we have. To be honest, I thought the conditions were not

sanitary. They have about a hundred head on about ten acres. They

are feedlot. Lots of standing manure and urine. The cows came in at

ten at a time to be milked. They would spray the teats, milk them

then iodine the teats. I did see from time to time that the milk

machine (sorry, I don't know the terms!), would loose suction and come

off and hit the cement..which was full of manure. They didn't wash

the 'milk suckers' off before re-applying them.

The rest of us have 'gotten over' our bug. I'm thinking our bodies

have built up an anti-body base against these particular bacterias.

My husband wants to keep drinking it. I'm at a total loss.

Thanx,

robin

--

in Oklahoma

Concharty English Shepherds

http://www.conchart y.com

Interested in working from home?

http://karencline.

thewhycircle. com/

No virus found in this incoming message.

Checked by AVG Free Edition.

Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.13.21/511 - Release Date: 11/1/2006

[Guest guest]

This discussion is very helpful for all of us. I am specifically focused on episodes of foodborne illnesses that appear to be related to drinking fresh unprocessed milk (raw). My wife, a WAPF Chapter Leader, teaches classes on maximizing nutritional quality of food including preparation techniques, and how to maintain food in its optimal condition.

This discussion brings out one of the critical aspects of making a choice to drink fresh unprocessed milk. Consumers who decide to switch from that commercial stuff that the grocery stores carry in their dairy section, to farmers who want to provide fresh unprocessed milk; must understand that making these decisions brings with it an increase in personal responsibility to maintain the quality of the milk and minimize the risks.

In my opinion there is substantial and sound evidence that fresh unprocessed milk is inherently safer than that stuff in the grocery stores. That is why we drink only raw milk, and a lot of it. This does not mean that it is without some risk of illness.

Many raw milk advocates, both farmers and consumers have realized that making an informed choice to switch to fresh unprocessed milk for our families carries with it a need to be more knowledgeable about the conditions necessary to maintain the added nutritional benefits, and reduce the risks. There was a national conference in Nebraska earlier this year so that consumers and farmers could come up with a set of principles/guidelines for farmers and consumers to maximize the health benefits of raw milk, and reduce the rare incident of contamination with pathogens that could produce illness in the consumers. The results from that meeting are being prepared and will be available once they have been reviewed by the participants and stakeholders.

Government has interceded, mostly without our consent, to "protect" us from foodborne disease. Consequently, the public has become convinced that food is safe. The public is learning that that is not the case. Never-the-less if we make a choice to consume raw milk, directly from the farmer ( which is what I am strongly promoting) then we need to have personal knowledge that the philosophy and operations on that farm are in keeping with those added responsibilities. And we must learn and handle the milk so as to maintain its nutritional value and minimize the health risks to our families.

We also strongly advocate that the consumer and farmer should establish a personal relationship that allows both to freely talk about any concerns about the quality of the milk. That includes periodic on farm testing and making the test results accessible. And there is no better way to promote that relationship than to have the consumer visit the farm (at a time convenient to the farm operations) and talk about the reasons for choosing fresh unprocessed milk directly from that farm. And what the farmer is doing to enhance and insure the quality of the milk.

Ted Beals

Re: Help! Got sick on raw milk!

Robin,As a farmer, I can tell you that the conditions you describe here are NOTappropriate conditions that would deem drinking the milk raw safe! With100 head on ten acres, not only is there not enough pasture to support thatmany cows meaning they are getting very little grass, the worm load wouldhave to be sky high. They would have to be feeding an awful lot of grainwhich would change the ph is cows stomachs and make a great breeding groundfor bacteria, especially e-coli.Cows being milked in an area with standing manure and urine and hosing offof cows is disgusting! All that would do is move the feces around. Itsounds like you are lucky that you did not get e-coli or something worse!When looking at farms look for sanitary conditions. A barn is a barn, andwill never look like a kitchen but cows being milked surrounded by feces isjust dangerous and a milking claw that drops down to ground should beimmediately removed and replaced and all the milk in the bucket thrown outand bucket washed. We do this if it happens and there is no feces in thearea where our girls are milked.My suggestion would be to find another source for raw milk.. and fast. ChisholmDevon Dairy and Farm, Calhoun, GA

[Guest guest]

Dear Ted;

This is an awesome response! I am in the process of building a brochure on the benefits of raw milk for my consumers. I am specifically wanting to add a section on responsibility of the farmer and consumer. Would you be interested in helping me write something? Would it be alright with you to use a part of this email in the brochure?

Jessi

Lucky Hook Dairyhttp://www.milking-machines.com

-----Original Message-----From: RawDairy [mailto:RawDairy ]On Behalf Of Ted BealsSent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 6:00 AMTo: RawDairy Subject: Re: Re: Help! Got sick on raw milk!

This discussion is very helpful for all of us. I am specifically focused on episodes of foodborne illnesses that appear to be related to drinking fresh unprocessed milk (raw). My wife, a WAPF Chapter Leader, teaches classes on maximizing nutritional quality of food including preparation techniques, and how to maintain food in its optimal condition.

This discussion brings out one of the critical aspects of making a choice to drink fresh unprocessed milk. Consumers who decide to switch from that commercial stuff that the grocery stores carry in their dairy section, to farmers who want to provide fresh unprocessed milk; must understand that making these decisions brings with it an increase in personal responsibility to maintain the quality of the milk and minimize the risks.

In my opinion there is substantial and sound evidence that fresh unprocessed milk is inherently safer than that stuff in the grocery stores. That is why we drink only raw milk, and a lot of it. This does not mean that it is without some risk of illness.

Many raw milk advocates, both farmers and consumers have realized that making an informed choice to switch to fresh unprocessed milk for our families carries with it a need to be more knowledgeable about the conditions necessary to maintain the added nutritional benefits, and reduce the risks. There was a national conference in Nebraska earlier this year so that consumers and farmers could come up with a set of principles/guidelines for farmers and consumers to maximize the health benefits of raw milk, and reduce the rare incident of contamination with pathogens that could produce illness in the consumers. The results from that meeting are being prepared and will be available once they have been reviewed by the participants and stakeholders.

Government has interceded, mostly without our consent, to "protect" us from foodborne disease. Consequently, the public has become convinced that food is safe. The public is learning that that is not the case. Never-the-less if we make a choice to consume raw milk, directly from the farmer ( which is what I am strongly promoting) then we need to have personal knowledge that the philosophy and operations on that farm are in keeping with those added responsibilities. And we must learn and handle the milk so as to maintain its nutritional value and minimize the health risks to our families.

We also strongly advocate that the consumer and farmer should establish a personal relationship that allows both to freely talk about any concerns about the quality of the milk. That includes periodic on farm testing and making the test results accessible. And there is no better way to promote that relationship than to have the consumer visit the farm (at a time convenient to the farm operations) and talk about the reasons for choosing fresh unprocessed milk directly from that farm. And what the farmer is doing to enhance and insure the quality of the milk.

Ted Beals

[Guest guest]

At 05:34 PM 11/1/2006, you wrote:

Hi ;

I am very interested in being able to document the prison story? Can

you

quote a source that I can look up?

Jack Mathis was president of Atlanta's Mathis

Dairy. This anecdote is quoted by Dr. s in The

Milk Book, pages 28 and 29.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

Canfield

Christian liberty should never be exercised at the expense of a Christian

testimony. ~ Chappell

" Be not deceived, God is not mocked; for whatsoever a man

soweth, that shall he also reap. " Galatians 6:7

[Guest guest]

I am sorry that you feel that you were being

harassed. I can see how you might feel this way. However, those who

posted their skepticism do have a point, as well. (How's that for fence

sitting?) We are wary of trolls here, simply due to the nature of the

focus of this list.

Okay, here is what I would do. If you had no other source for milk, and

wanted to avoid the processed stuff in the stores, I would continue to

buy the milk but make kefir out of it, and try to find raw cheese, which

is easier to find than raw milk.That would satisfy the raw dairy need for

your family, plus give them some good probiotics to knock out whatever

nasties their GI systems would encounter, from the milk or other sources.

Then for beverages, I would drink water and kombucha.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

Canfield

Christian liberty should never be exercised at the expense of a Christian

testimony. ~ Chappell

" Be not deceived, God is not mocked; for whatsoever a man

soweth, that shall he also reap. " Galatians 6:7

[Guest guest]

I would love to get in on a calaboration too. I am going to come up with something that I can give to my co-op custimers on safety and handling of raw milk. It is something that the powers that be would like to see. I think eduaction is as important as the product itself. So if we could share info that would be great and we would not have to all come up with the same info.

Chris

Dear Ted;

This is an awesome response! I am in the process of building a brochure on the benefits of raw milk for my consumers. I am specifically wanting to add a section on responsibility of the farmer and consumer. Would you be interested in helping me write something? Would it be alright with you to use a part of this email in the brochure?

Jessi

Lucky Hook Dairyhttp://www.milking-machines.com

..

[Guest guest]

Jessi and Chris:

I have forwarded this to Peggy. As far as anything on my email, you certainly may use any of that that you would find helpful.

Ted

Re: Re: Help! Got sick on raw milk!

I would love to get in on a calaboration too. I am going to come up with something that I can give to my co-op custimers on safety and handling of raw milk. It is something that the powers that be would like to see. I think eduaction is as important as the product itself. So if we could share info that would be great and we would not have to all come up with the same info.

Chris

Dear Ted;

This is an awesome response! I am in the process of building a brochure on the benefits of raw milk for my consumers. I am specifically wanting to add a section on responsibility of the farmer and consumer. Would you be interested in helping me write something? Would it be alright with you to use a part of this email in the brochure?

Jessi

Lucky Hook Dairyhttp://www.milking-machines.com

..

[Guest guest]

This is an important portion of the report that will come out of the Raw Milk Safety Summit held in Nebraska earlier this year. A lot of knowledgeable folks participate in that conference and it looks like their final report will be extremely helpful to all who want to participate in raw milk. It is about time for a solid draft to be coming out for review by the participants.

In the meantime, The RAW-USA website has some very well thought out principles. www.rawusa.org

Ted

Re: Help! Got sick on raw milk!

There is lots advice here to make sure the farm where you get your raw milk tests the milk regularly. I have my own cow and share some of my milk with others. I would like to be responsible and test my cow's milk. What are the specific tests that are recommended and how often should they be done?Yany

..

[Guest guest]

Peggy and I were both there. Answer it is not in the mail so far. But we will keep an eye out.

If you can, would you forward it to me directly Tedbeals@...

Ted

Re: Help! Got sick on raw milk!

There is lots advice here to make sure the farm where you get your raw milk tests the milk regularly. I have my own cow and share some of my milk with others. I would like to be responsible and test my cow's milk. What are the specific tests that are recommended and how often should they be done?Yany

..

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[Guest guest]

ted

i got my draft from the raw milk summit today (saturday). were you there and have you gotten yours yet?

ro - ia

Re: Help! Got sick on raw milk!

There is lots advice here to make sure the farm where you get your raw milk tests the milk regularly. I have my own cow and share some of my milk with others. I would like to be responsible and test my cow's milk. What are the specific tests that are recommended and how often should they be done?Yany

..

Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.13/500 - Release Date: 10/26/2006

[Guest guest]

it should be coming soon. =-)

Re: Help! Got sick on raw milk!

There is lots advice here to make sure the farm where you get your raw milk tests the milk regularly. I have my own cow and share some of my milk with others. I would like to be responsible and test my cow's milk. What are the specific tests that are recommended and how often should they be done?Yany

..

Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.13/500 - Release Date: 10/26/2006

Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.13/500 - Release Date: 10/26/2006

[Guest guest]

Jessi: Anything in the email is certainly available for you to use. my wife Peggy presented her lecture on Consumers' Guide to the Safe Handling of Fresh, Unprocessed Milk, at the WAPF meeting a week ago. It is focused on a joint responsibility of farmer and consumer. Much of her work was utilized in the Fact Sheet on Raw Milk Safety, that is in draft form, but will eventually be used as a national document for farmers and consumers. It is supposed to be available early next year.

We are making a CD available for $5.00 to cover handling costs that includes Peggy's complete lecture in PDF format. If you would like that send us a request at 16100 Seymour Rd. Grass Lake, MI 49240.

Ted

RE: Re: Help! Got sick on raw milk!