Guest guest Posted June 30, 2006 Report Posted June 30, 2006 See attached regarding cement and the addition of water to form concrete. In addition to CO2 production and flyash, etc decribed by others, also consider that amines (e.g., triethanolamine) that are very irritating and polycarboxylic acids (that can produce acidic gases) could also have been used in the concrete. If leveling compounds were used then amines again may have been used or one could have amine production by bacterial degradation of the compound could have occurred (I have data on three caes of this). Hope this helps. Tony ........................................................................... " Tony " Havics, CHMM, CIH, PE pH2, LLC PO Box 34140 Indianapolis, IN 46234 cell 90% of Risk Management is knowing where to place the decimal point...any consultant can give you the other 10%â„ This message is from pH2. This message and any attachments may contain legally privileged or confidential information, and are intended only for the individual or entity identified above as the addressee. If you are not the addressee, or if this message has been addressed to you in error, you are not authorized to read, copy, or distribute this message and any attachments, and we ask that you please delete this message and attachments (including all copies) and notify the sender by return e-mail or by phone at . Delivery of this message and any attachments to any person other than the intended recipient(s) is not intended in any way to waive confidentiality or a privilege. All personal messages express views only of the sender, which are not to be attributed to pH2 and may not be copied or distributed without this statement. Re: Concrete Dust? Shell: Sealing the concrete with a commercial product designed for concrete products may solve the problem, especially the dustiness. It might also be worth while checking on any concrete admixtures (e.g., fly ash) to the concrete that may have been added. Don Schaezler, Ph.D., P.E., CIH ETC Information Services, LLC Cibolo, Texas Shell Bleiweiss wrote: > > Anyone know about health effects of improperly cured concrete in the > basement of a home? I have a prospective client who gets sick with > burning lungs and flu like symptoms when spending much time in the > basement of new (Feb. 2005) home. Others who spend time in basement > also have similar symptoms. CO, formaldehyde and mold have been ruled > out. PC says concrete floor seems dusty all the time. They cleaned up > with water and vacuuming and aired out and problem subsided for a > while, then came back. Ideas? > > Shell Bleiweiss > Law Offices of Shell J. Bleiweiss > Environmental and OSHA Law > Chicago and Barrington IL Offices > > www.shell-bleiweiss.com <http://www.shell-bleiweiss.com> > FAIR USE NOTICE: This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner. Quote
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2006 Report Posted July 1, 2006 I can't think of the term but when dirty concrete is used it never cures right and then there is this white algae substance that builds up. That white stuff is not an algae. It is likely inflorescence, which is a mineral material. It is left when moisture leaching through the concrete picks up minerals or brings the minerals with it from the soil. When it gets to the inner concrete face, the moisture evaporates and leaves the minerals behind usually in a white crystalline form. You can also sometimes find it on buildings with full brick or concrete block walls. Sometimes, it will be in the " blisters " of some painted walls, especially if the inner brick of block wall face has been painted. I am not sure of the health consequences of the stuff. I can't recall ever having seen any reports on respiratory exposure to it. BTW, if anyone is thinking about searching, be forewarned. Inflorescence is also a biological term for certain plant parts and there is a lot more information about that stuff than the wall stuff. ****************************************************** If what is written looks too stupid to be written by me, I disclaim it. On the other hand, if it is brilliant, then I have no one to blame but myself. Otherwise, whether you choose to accept my opinion is up to you. ****************************************************** K. Klein, PE ME, MBA Indoor Air Quality Solutions, Inc. 2523 SR 133 Bethel, OH 45106-0007 VOICE: FAX: (with notice) E-mail: mkklein68@... ******************************************************* Wouldn't it be nice if common sense were really common? Quote
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2006 Report Posted July 1, 2006 This is a link to concrete sealing . The more you disturb the surface of the present slab the rougher and dustier it will become. Don't re invent the wheel as you have tons of this already in place. Pick a product that will vapor proof the slab. (Not water proof ,or surface seal but Vapor Proof ) this will relieve the dusting, water ,and subsoil gasses that will surely follow in the future . Remember, Concrete is a Very porous building product. http://concretesealers.com/ Valin Quote
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2006 Report Posted July 1, 2006 Shell, Depressurization of the floor is the same technology used in Radon systems. We have successfully used this technology to control basement odor problems many times. The worse case was a home built over a former dump. The CO2 levels were 10,000 ppm and put out the pilot lights. the methane was even higher, they were lucky the place did not explode. Similar cases involving solvents ground water causing odors in basments. BOB Quote
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2006 Report Posted July 1, 2006 Hears a story to suggest looking at the walls and not the floor. A number of years ago I was visiting dear friends at their new home in Indianapolis in August. We were to stay in their new guest room. Actually we were the first guests since they moved in shortly before. In the middle of the night I awoke with an asthmatic attack, my eyes were watering, eyelids were painful and breathing was difficult. I left the bedroom and visited the kitchen and was immediately improving but my eyes stayed swollen and were quite red for some time. At day daybreak I inspected the room and found what at first looked like dust on the new walls. I wiped my open hand across the wall and at the edge of the hand was an accumulation of glistening dust. I inspected the four walls and each wall showed dust... a glistening dust. The walls were not painted.. They were raw unpainted wallboard... gypsum board. The gypsum board was in such immaculate condition it obviously appeared it did not need a coat of paint. What was happening was the gypsum being a soluable mineral was leaching through the paper covering and growing microscopic crystals on the outside paper surface. The dust of those crystals was in the air and I was being bothered by it. I showed my host, who by the way was the chief design engineer of the engine division there in Indianapolis, what was bothering me and he immediately understood as he had come down with what he thought was hay fever ever since moving into his beautiful new home. I suggested he have the walls painted as soon as possible. As that room was the only room in the house with unpainted walls that was no big deal. His hayfever soon disappeared after paint the walls of that room. So Shell, I'd suggest to your client to check the type of wall covering being used in the basement. If it is gypsumboard have its surfaces inspected to see if dust is forming from leaching mineral. If that's the problem suggest the gypsum board be sealed with a good sealer and painting. Gibala > > Anyone know about health effects of improperly cured concrete in the basement of a home? I have a prospective client who gets sick with burning lungs and flu like symptoms when spending much time in the basement of new (Feb. 2005) home. Others who spend time in basement also have similar symptoms. CO, formaldehyde and mold have been ruled out. PC says concrete floor seems dusty all the time. They cleaned up with water and vacuuming and aired out and problem subsided for a while, then came back. Ideas? > > Shell Bleiweiss > Law Offices of Shell J. Bleiweiss > Environmental and OSHA Law > Chicago and Barrington IL Offices > > www.shell-bleiweiss.com > Quote
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2006 Report Posted July 2, 2006 That's what I thought. So why would this solve a problem caused by concrete dust? Shell Bleiweiss Law Offices of Shell J. Bleiweiss Environmental and OSHA Law Chicago and Barrington IL Offices www.shell-bleiweiss.com Re: Concrete Dust? > Shell, > > Depressurization of the floor is the same technology used in Radon > systems. We have successfully used this technology to control basement > odor problems many times. > > The worse case was a home built over a former dump. The CO2 levels > were 10,000 ppm and put out the pilot lights. the methane was even > higher, they were lucky the place did not explode. > > Similar cases involving solvents ground water causing odors in basments. > > > BOB > > > > > > > > FAIR USE NOTICE: > > This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner. > Quote
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2006 Report Posted July 2, 2006 Ken: It is an unfinished basement. Shell Bleiweiss Law Offices of Shell J. Bleiweiss Environmental and OSHA Law Chicago and Barrington IL Offices www.shell-bleiweiss.com Re: Concrete Dust? > Hears a story to suggest looking at the walls and not the floor. > > A number of years ago I was visiting dear friends at their new home > in Indianapolis in August. We were to stay in their new guest room. > Actually we were the first guests since they moved in shortly before. > > In the middle of the night I awoke with an asthmatic attack, my eyes > were watering, eyelids were painful and breathing was difficult. I > left the bedroom and visited the kitchen and was immediately > improving but my eyes stayed swollen and were quite red for some > time. > > At day daybreak I inspected the room and found what at first looked > like dust on the new walls. I wiped my open hand across the wall > and at the edge of the hand was an accumulation of glistening dust. > I inspected the four walls and each wall showed dust... a > glistening dust. The walls were not painted.. They were raw > unpainted wallboard... gypsum board. The gypsum board was in such > immaculate condition it obviously appeared it did not need a coat of > paint. What was happening was the gypsum being a soluable mineral > was leaching through the paper covering and growing microscopic > crystals on the outside paper surface. The dust of those crystals > was in the air and I was being bothered by it. I showed my host, > who by the way was the chief design engineer of the engine > division there in Indianapolis, what was bothering me and he > immediately understood as he had come down with what he thought was > hay fever ever since moving into his beautiful new home. I > suggested he have the walls painted as soon as possible. As that > room was the only room in the house with unpainted walls that was no > big deal. His hayfever soon disappeared after paint the walls of > that room. > > So Shell, I'd suggest to your client to check the type of wall > covering being used in the basement. If it is gypsumboard have its > surfaces inspected to see if dust is forming from leaching mineral. > If that's the problem suggest the gypsum board be sealed with a good > sealer and painting. > > Gibala > > > > > > > > Anyone know about health effects of improperly cured concrete in > the basement of a home? I have a prospective client who gets sick > with burning lungs and flu like symptoms when spending much time in > the basement of new (Feb. 2005) home. Others who spend time in > basement also have similar symptoms. CO, formaldehyde and mold have > been ruled out. PC says concrete floor seems dusty all the time. > They cleaned up with water and vacuuming and aired out and problem > subsided for a while, then came back. Ideas? > > > > Shell Bleiweiss > > Law Offices of Shell J. Bleiweiss > > Environmental and OSHA Law > > Chicago and Barrington IL Offices > > > > www.shell-bleiweiss.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > FAIR USE NOTICE: > > This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner. > Quote
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2006 Report Posted July 2, 2006 Bob: FYI...A sub-slab depressurization system is NOT the engineering control to employ when soil-gas contaminants are related to landfill gases; because depressurization tends to draw more LFG to the depressurized area than would otherwise be there. LFG contains a lot of reactive organic gases and the discharge of the depressurization system is the atmosphere. Not good! When you installed the system, did you run the soil-gases through a carbon system to remove the ROGs? Moreover, if CO2 concentrations were 1%v and the methane concentration was higher, i.e., greater than 1%v, then the basement space exceeded the safe 20%-LEL concentration. It's a wonder the structure didn't explode if there was a pilot flame present. Someone should count their lucky stars! I have been designing/constructing soil-gas mitigations systems for almost 30-years and I see radon mitigation systems, specifically sub-slab depressurization, now being modified for vapor intrusion control for all sorts of problem soil gases in structures. However, in my opinion, they are a piss-poor control technology and there are other, more well-designed approaches to soil-gas control (than sub-slab depressurization). The biggest drawback to sub-slab depressurization is that soil-gases are sucked from the ground, and dumped into the atmosphere, i.e., the contaminant is transferred from one media to another; usually without treatment. Not often much of an issue with radon due to the low concentration of radon in most soils, and a really bad situation when controlling chlorinated solvents, landfill gas, etc. In my opinion, sub-slab depressurization controls without contaminant treatment really SUCK; not to mention, they are bad for the environment. For what it is worth..... -- Geyer, PE, CIH, CSP President KERNTEC Industries, Inc. Bakersfield, California www.kerntecindustries.com > Shell, > > Depressurization of the floor is the same technology used in Radon > systems. We have successfully used this technology to control basement > odor problems many times. > > The worse case was a home built over a former dump. The CO2 levels > were 10,000 ppm and put out the pilot lights. the methane was even > higher, they were lucky the place did not explode. > > Similar cases involving solvents ground water causing odors in basments. > > > BOB > > This E-mail scanned for spam and viruses by ATG Internet. Quote
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2006 Report Posted July 2, 2006 Matt: I've never heard it refered to as inflorescence, only efflorescence. 1. The concrete dust could be the result of several things (possible causes):scaling (excessive water exposure, excessive bleeding*, sulfate corrosion)mortar flaking (excessive bleeding)surface delmination (excessive bleeding, concrete contaminants, sulfate corrosion)blisters (excessive water exposure, acid or sulfate corrosion, concrete contaminants,)leaching (excessive water exposure)efflorescence (excessive water exposure, excessive water vapor exposure)*Bleeding is excess water on top on concrete when it is curing.2. The dust would generally be alkaline (calcium-alumino-silicate) although could have some sulfur (sodium and potassium sulfates are typical for efflorescence) and some chlorides (efflorescence from rising damp). As far as respiratory hazards - consider it as an irritating dust. If you are asthmatic - you could easily react. If not, even reasonable amounts airborne might cause respiratory distress.In addition, eye irritation would likely be prevalent.3. If you do have a water vapor issue, I would consider Floor Seal or Seal Krete. Both products have water vapor permeability for them available from the manufacturers (ca. 5 perms). The patent holder/chemist for Seal Krete is very helpful as well. The Floor Seal folks have historically required a manufacturer certified installer to use their product. Seal Krete® (mod permeability)(Seal-Krete, , www.seal-krete.com)Floor Seal (mod permeability)(Floor Seal Technologies, , www.floorseal.com)Tony ........................................................................... "Tony" Havics, CHMM, CIH, PEpH2, LLCPO Box 34140Indianapolis, IN 46234 cell90% of Risk Management is knowing where to place the decimal point...any consultant can give you the other 10%℠This message is from pH2. This message and any attachments may contain legally privileged or confidential information, and are intended only for the individual or entity identified above as the addressee. If you are not the addressee, or if this message has been addressed to you in error, you are not authorized to read, copy, or distribute this message and any attachments, and we ask that you please delete this message and attachments (including all copies) and notify the sender by return e-mail or by phone at . Delivery of this message and any attachments to any person other than the intended recipient(s) is not intended in any way to waive confidentiality or a privilege. All personal messages express views only of the sender, which are not to be attributed to pH2 and may not be copied or distributed without this statement.-----Original Message-----From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of Matt KleinSent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 10:10 AMTo: iequality Subject: Re: Concrete Dust?I can't think of the term but when dirty concrete is used it never cures right and then there is this white algae substance that builds up.That white stuff is not an algae. It is likely inflorescence, which is a mineral material. It is left when moisture leaching through the concrete picks up minerals or brings the minerals with it from the soil. When it gets to the inner concrete face, the moisture evaporates and leaves the minerals behind usually in a white crystalline form. You can also sometimes find it on buildings with full brick or concrete block walls. Sometimes, it will be in the "blisters" of some painted walls, especially if the inner brick of block wall face has been painted. I am not sure of the health consequences of the stuff. I can't recall ever having seen any reports on respiratory exposure to it.BTW, if anyone is thinking about searching, be forewarned. Inflorescence is also a biological term for certain plant parts and there is a lot more information about that stuff than the wall stuff.******************************************************If what is written looks too stupid to be written by me, I disclaim it. Onthe other hand, if it is brilliant, then I have no one to blame but myself. Otherwise, whether you choose to accept my opinion is up to you.****************************************************** K. Klein, PE ME, MBAIndoor Air Quality Solutions, Inc.2523 SR 133Bethel, OH 45106-0007VOICE: FAX: (with notice)E-mail: mkklein68@...*******************************************************Wouldn't it be nice if common sense were really common? Quote
Guest guest Posted July 3, 2006 Report Posted July 3, 2006 Shell, I'm going to second Bob. How was it determined that concrete dust is the problem? This seems like a pretty unlikely explanation although many people think there is a concrete dust problem because basements smell different than other parts of the house and because concrete is, well, kind of "dusty" or "chalky" in appearance (even after washing). Depressurizing the floor, if done properly, can solve a variety of problems that originate as a soil gas (including radon, water vapor, and methane). Done improperly, can result in backdraft of naturally vented gas appliances. It's not particularly difficult to do it right, but you just don't want some "cookie-cutter contractor" sucking too much air out of the house. I'd recommend working on the diagnosis more. Can you provide additional information on what's been done and how? For example, you stated that formaldehyde had been ruled out, but what was done to make that determination? Same for CO and anything else they've already considered. Curtis Redington, RS Environmental Quality Specialist City of Wichita Dept. of Environmental Health Wichita KS -----Original Message-----From: iequality [mailto:iequality ]On Behalf Of Bob sSent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 5:24 PMTo: iequality Subject: Re: Concrete Dust? Shell,Improperly cured concrete? How was this determined? Pretty unlikely.Who ruled out CO, HCHO, and mold? How?What was the property filled with before building?Simple fix, de-pressurize the floor.Bob Quote
Guest guest Posted July 3, 2006 Report Posted July 3, 2006 , Dang that Spell Check! Did you perhaps mean "efflorescence"? Curtis Redington, RS Environmental Quality Specialist City of Wichita Dept. of Environmental Health Wichita KS -----Original Message-----From: iequality [mailto:iequality ]On Behalf Of Matt KleinSent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 10:10 AMTo: iequality Subject: Re: Concrete Dust? I can't think of the term but when dirty concrete is used it never cures right and then there is this white algae substance that builds up. That white stuff is not an algae. It is likely inflorescence, which is a mineral material. It is left when moisture leaching through the concrete picks up minerals or brings the minerals with it from the soil. When it gets to the inner concrete face, the moisture evaporates and leaves the minerals behind usually in a white crystalline form. You can also sometimes find it on buildings with full brick or concrete block walls. Sometimes, it will be in the "blisters" of some painted walls, especially if the inner brick of block wall face has been painted. I am not sure of the health consequences of the stuff. I can't recall ever having seen any reports on respiratory exposure to it.BTW, if anyone is thinking about searching, be forewarned. Inflorescence is also a biological term for certain plant parts and there is a lot more information about that stuff than the wall stuff. ******************************************************If what is written looks too stupid to be written by me, I disclaim it. Onthe other hand, if it is brilliant, then I have no one to blame but myself. Otherwise, whether you choose to accept my opinion is up to you.****************************************************** K. Klein, PE ME, MBAIndoor Air Quality Solutions, Inc.2523 SR 133Bethel, OH 45106-0007VOICE: FAX: (with notice)E-mail: mkklein68@...*******************************************************Wouldn't it be nice if common sense were really common? Quote
Guest guest Posted July 3, 2006 Report Posted July 3, 2006 Shell, All concrete floors should be sealed with some type of coating to minimize dust that is generated when walking or using these floors. However, it is not clear in your case that concrete dust is the only source of a problem. Sealing the floor and depressuring it would provide a more comprehensive fix. Bob Quote
Guest guest Posted July 4, 2006 Report Posted July 4, 2006 Shell – Not sure if anyone asked this yet, or if it was already stated; but do you know if the builder used any kind of vapor retarder under the slab or what the water table is like in that location? Do there seem to be times when the problem is worse? Thanks. Stacey Champion Owner/Consultant Champion Indoor Environmental Services, LLC From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of Redington, Curtis Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 7:48 AM To: iequality Subject: RE: Concrete Dust? Shell, I'm going to second Bob. How was it determined that concrete dust is the problem? This seems like a pretty unlikely explanation although many people think there is a concrete dust problem because basements smell different than other parts of the house and because concrete is, well, kind of " dusty " or " chalky " in appearance (even after washing). Depressurizing the floor, if done properly, can solve a variety of problems that originate as a soil gas (including radon, water vapor, and methane). Done improperly, can result in backdraft of naturally vented gas appliances. It's not particularly difficult to do it right, but you just don't want some " cookie-cutter contractor " sucking too much air out of the house. I'd recommend working on the diagnosis more. Can you provide additional information on what's been done and how? For example, you stated that formaldehyde had been ruled out, but what was done to make that determination? Same for CO and anything else they've already considered. Curtis Redington, RS Environmental Quality Specialist City of Wichita Dept. of Environmental Health Wichita KS Re: Concrete Dust? Shell, Improperly cured concrete? How was this determined? Pretty unlikely. Who ruled out CO, HCHO, and mold? How? What was the property filled with before building? Simple fix, de-pressurize the floor. Bob Quote
Guest guest Posted July 5, 2006 Report Posted July 5, 2006 , The use of a sand layer between the vapor barrier and the slab is a bit controversial. You might be interested in a paper Joe Lstiburek wrote on this subject (www.buildingscience.com/resources/foundations/sand_layer_under_slab.htm). Curtis Redington, RS Environmental Quality Specialist City of Wichita Dept. of Environmental Health Wichita KS -----Original Message-----From: iequality [mailto:iequality ]On Behalf Of GeyerSent: Tuesday, July 04, 2006 7:18 PMTo: iequality Subject: Re: Concrete Dust? Steve:You describe a VERY common problem in new construction, and the problem ispervasive all over the U.S. Excessive soil-moisture intrusion (andsecondary effects) accounts for over 60% of new home construction complaintsnation-wide! I find it ironic and humorous at the same time, and don'tunderstand why the building codes don't prescribe more effective vaporbarriers and/or why administrative requirements (local building codes) don'tstep-in where the regional building codes are deficient. It is not likethese issues are new, or unknown. If a robust vapor barrier was installedat the time of construction, problems associated with excessive moisturevapor, radon, and other soil gases would be mute. Many codes stillrecommend a single layer of 4-mil or 6-mil polyethylene. If you ever builtanything, or were involved with fabricating foundations, most single sheetsof poly don't survive the installation of rebar and dobie-blocks, andconcrete contractors routinely puncture and tear whatever sheet plastic ispresent. They often don't care. My standard vapor barrier design is: 1" to2" of clean, medium to fine-grain construction sand, two layers of 6-milblack poly (available at any home-improvement store), staggered sheets with50% overlap, seams sealed with clear packaging tape (any tape will do and itis available at any office supply store), then covered with another 2" layerof clean sand. All plumbing and structural penetrations are sealed withplastic sheeting and tape. The BIGGEST issue (after the barrier isinstalled) is to supervise the concrete contractor for job-site performance,i.e., no rebar or metal stakes through the plastic, and NO leaning on theshovel! (You wouldn't believe how difficult it is to break laborers of thishabit.) If properly done, this barrier will last the life of the structure,keep out water, radon, and all other vapors. Total cost?...Under $1,000 fora 2,000-sq.ft. building footprint, slab-on-grade foundation. If really highconcentrations of soil-gas vapors are present at the building site, anHDPE/ABS french-drain system placed just under the bottom sand layer andplumbed to the roof, provides a preferential pathway for gases to safelymigrate. The whole system is passive and requires no energy input ever. Ifsoil-water is an issue, a HDPE french-drain system placed below the vadosezone (capillary fringe) will do nicely if sloped to drain/sump. It is SOEASY to install these systems correctly at the time of construction, andlike you experienced, it is a damn costly nightmare to retrofit later.This is a BIG practice area of mine, i.e., designing vapor barriers for newconstruction and fixing problem buildings that have vapor intrusion. I oftensee many nice, new (i.e., less than 3-yrs old), buildings that are reallyharmed due to an inadequate or poorly installed vapor barrier; and once theconcrete is placed, there is not a whole lot that can be done within areasonable budget to mitigate the problem. Moreover, the most effectivemitigation controls are often active systems that have significantlife-cycle costs. The lack of front-end (pre-concrete) engineering controlswould eliminate a lot of back-end (post-construction) problems.For what it is worth...-- ***************************************************** Geyer PE, CIH, CSPPRESIDENTKERNTEC Industries, Inc.3703 Columbus StreetBakersfield, California 93306P F (661) 872-3447mgeyerkerntecindustrieswww.kerntecindustries.comwww.michaelgeyer.com*****************************************************On 7/2/06 8:57 PM, "Steve Chalmers" <stevecsurewest (DOT) net> wrote:> The hallmark of my sick house 10 years ago was efflorescence forming on the> garage floor, which was the lowest concrete slab in the house.> > The problem was moisture coming up through the slabs, continuously. A> substance -- which was never identified despite the expenditure of >$10K in> testing and drawing on the expertise of several highly recommended CIH and> other experts -- came into the house with that moisture, caused flulike> symptoms especially in sensitized individuals, and most likely was related to> an ultrafine white dust we observed after the house had been evacuated for 6> months.> > In retrospect 10 years later, I think the substance was a metal in soluble> form. Whether it came from the soil, the concrete, or something from the soil> playing ion-exchange as the water wicked through the slab will never be known.> > We fixed the drainage problem (twice, before we got it right) and that stopped> whatever was coming into the house. "The bottom of the french drains must be> at least the wicking height of the soil below the base of the stemwalls."> > The importance of the house being only two years old is that something leached> from the soil has had time to reach the interior of the house, but not enough> time to leach out all that was in the soil. Just a thought.> > Steve Chalmers> stevecsurewest (DOT) net> This E-mail scanned for spam and viruses by ATG Internet. Quote
Guest guest Posted July 6, 2006 Report Posted July 6, 2006 The following factors could be why older didn't see as many problems (depending on your neck of the woods and time of the year): 1. Looser building envelopes (forgiving systems) that allowed moisture to go both ways in vapor form. 2. Looser building envelopes (forgiving systems) that allowed more air exchanges to allow moisture to go both ways through air movement. 3. Basements weren't finished as often. 4. AC in houses that can exacerbate the situation. 5. HVAC systems that had forced air and aided to the house stack vent effect, pulling moisture out as it did. 6. For very old houses - plaster, more resistant to moisture issues. ........................................................................... "Tony" Havics, CHMM, CIH, PEpH2, LLCPO Box 34140Indianapolis, IN 46234 cell90% of Risk Management is knowing where to place the decimal point...any consultant can give you the other 10%â„ This message is from pH2. This message and any attachments may contain legally privileged or confidential information, and are intended only for the individual or entity identified above as the addressee. If you are not the addressee, or if this message has been addressed to you in error, you are not authorized to read, copy, or distribute this message and any attachments, and we ask that you please delete this message and attachments (including all copies) and notify the sender by return e-mail or by phone at . Delivery of this message and any attachments to any person other than the intended recipient(s) is not intended in any way to waive confidentiality or a privilege. All personal messages express views only of the sender, which are not to be attributed to pH2 and may not be copied or distributed without this statement. Re: Concrete Dust?Steve:You describe a VERY common problem in new construction, and the problem ispervasive all over the U.S. Excessive soil-moisture intrusion (andsecondary effects) accounts for over 60% of new home construction complaintsnation-wide! I find it ironic and humorous at the same time, and don'tunderstand why the building codes don't prescribe more effective vaporbarriers and/or why administrative requirements (local building codes) don'tstep-in where the regional building codes are deficient. It is not likethese issues are new, or unknown. If a robust vapor barrier was installedat the time of construction, problems associated with excessive moisturevapor, radon, and other soil gases would be mute. Many codes stillrecommend a single layer of 4-mil or 6-mil polyethylene. If you ever builtanything, or were involved with fabricating foundations, most single sheetsof poly don't survive the installation of rebar and dobie-blocks, andconcrete contractors routinely puncture and tear whatever sheet plastic ispresent. They often don't care. My standard vapor barrier design is: 1" to2" of clean, medium to fine-grain construction sand, two layers of 6-milblack poly (available at any home-improvement store), staggered sheets with50% overlap, seams sealed with clear packaging tape (any tape will do and itis available at any office supply store), then covered with another 2" layerof clean sand. All plumbing and structural penetrations are sealed withplastic sheeting and tape. The BIGGEST issue (after the barrier isinstalled) is to supervise the concrete contractor for job-site performance,i.e., no rebar or metal stakes through the plastic, and NO leaning on theshovel! (You wouldn't believe how difficult it is to break laborers of thishabit.) If properly done, this barrier will last the life of the structure,keep out water, radon, and all other vapors. Total cost?...Under $1,000 fora 2,000-sq.ft. building footprint, slab-on-grade foundation. If really highconcentrations of soil-gas vapors are present at the building site, anHDPE/ABS french-drain system placed just under the bottom sand layer andplumbed to the roof, provides a preferential pathway for gases to safelymigrate. The whole system is passive and requires no energy input ever. Ifsoil-water is an issue, a HDPE french-drain system placed below the vadosezone (capillary fringe) will do nicely if sloped to drain/sump. It is SOEASY to install these systems correctly at the time of construction, andlike you experienced, it is a damn costly nightmare to retrofit later.This is a BIG practice area of mine, i.e., designing vapor barriers for newconstruction and fixing problem buildings that have vapor intrusion. I oftensee many nice, new (i.e., less than 3-yrs old), buildings that are reallyharmed due to an inadequate or poorly installed vapor barrier; and once theconcrete is placed, there is not a whole lot that can be done within areasonable budget to mitigate the problem. Moreover, the most effectivemitigation controls are often active systems that have significantlife-cycle costs. The lack of front-end (pre-concrete) engineering controlswould eliminate a lot of back-end (post-construction) problems.For what it is worth...--***************************************************** Geyer PE, CIH, CSPPRESIDENTKERNTEC Industries, Inc.3703 Columbus StreetBakersfield, California 93306P F (661) 872-3447mgeyer@...www.kerntecindustries.comwww.michaelgeyer.com*****************************************************On 7/2/06 8:57 PM, "Steve Chalmers" wrote:> The hallmark of my sick house 10 years ago was efflorescence forming on the> garage floor, which was the lowest concrete slab in the house.>> The problem was moisture coming up through the slabs, continuously. A> substance -- which was never identified despite the expenditure of >$10K in> testing and drawing on the expertise of several highly recommended CIH and> other experts -- came into the house with that moisture, caused flulike> symptoms especially in sensitized individuals, and most likely was related to> an ultrafine white dust we observed after the house had been evacuated for 6> months.>> In retrospect 10 years later, I think the substance was a metal in soluble> form. Whether it came from the soil, the concrete, or something from the soil> playing ion-exchange as the water wicked through the slab will never be known.>> We fixed the drainage problem (twice, before we got it right) and that stopped> whatever was coming into the house. "The bottom of the french drains must be> at least the wicking height of the soil below the base of the stemwalls.">> The importance of the house being only two years old is that something leached> from the soil has had time to reach the interior of the house, but not enough> time to leach out all that was in the soil. Just a thought.>> Steve Chalmers> stevec@...>This E-mail scanned for spam and viruses by ATG Internet.FAIR USE NOTICE:This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. 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