Re: Grass fed goats

[Guest guest]

I'll preface by saying I am not being mean or hateful or in any

way other than relating my own personal experiences in livestock, so

you overly sensitive types chill out and delete if you can't handle

it.

If I can get good alfalfa hay I don't need to feed hardly any

grain at all. What little grain I would have to feed is to balance

the calcium rich alfalfa with enough phosphorus rich grain to have an

overall ratio of two calciums to every one phosphorus. Usually a

mixture of corn, oats, barley, and other 'small grains' will suffice,

with an average protein of about 10% to 12%. Read up on nutritional

content of alfalfa hay, it runs on average +18% to as high as 24%

depending upon cutting.

The overall ration has got to be balanced for many things, most

imporant is that calcium to phosphorus ratio stays in the range of 2

calciums to every one phosphorus. If I get that screwed up, in a

couple years down the road it shows up with growth/bone problems that

I CANNOT correct!

And, I might find out, quite tragically, that a kid puts on close

to 80% of it's birth weight that last four weeks of gestation. A doe

will put everything she has, to the point of causing her own death,

into those kids. She literally doesn't have the space in her body to

process enough roughage (grass, hay, browse) due to the kids crowding

to meet those needs. If I don't feed grain enough to substain both

the doe's energy needs AND the growing kids, at least the last four

weeks of gestation I am going to have a higher risk of ketosis and

does freshening underweight and unbable to sustain lactation. This

is especially true in does carrying more than twins.

Around here there are a lot of willfully ignorant meat goat

producers who compost an awful lot of goat in kidding season because

they just don't get it. They think they can raise a goat, kid her

out and have her raise fat kids on next to nothing.... end result is

dead goats.

I don't want to feed alfalfa hay that last four weeks of

gestation because it's got too high a potassium level in it and can

greatly heighten risk of milk fever. So, I am left with having to

feed grain.

There is NOTHING wrong with feeding grain if I have the good

sense to do it with overall ration properly balanced. Overfeeding

grain will cause problems but that's a managment problem, not the

fault of the grain. And, a hungry animal is at a higher risk of

getting into something toxic, too. Feeding a good quality hay will

provide protection from lots of health problems. If I want them to

go out and forage, then I feed hay at night only.

MacKenzie book, Goat Husbandry, is a classic and has an

excellent chapter on body condition scoring. This can help a lot in

ensuring animals are at correct condition for each stage of lactation

and gestation. Too many don't understand how to determine body

condition and end up having either too fat or too skinny goat.

People have bred dairy animals for thousands of years to be

PRODUCTIVE and they are way, way, WAY removed from their wild

ancestors. Now, people have the responsibilty to feed them correctly

to substain growth and production. I have seen a world of 'grass

fed' animals that are way skinny and poor, with babes that never meet

their genetic potential because they are not fed properly. Goats in

particular do very poorly if forced to eat grass only. They are

browsers and need to have 80% of forage in form of browse in order to

thrive. In your case free ranging across a desert they might find

that in some seasons of the year but not in others. One benefit is

that they won't have the parasite pressures due to eating high up

browse and that it's so dry all the time. Free range has it's

downside, too, consider that most plants have a wiley way of

producing toxins to protect themselves from foraging animals, and

there is always the risk of predators, too. My goats have a LGD with

them 24/7/365 or the coyotes would have killed everything I have long

ago.

Grass fed has become one of the totally useless 'hot' catch

phrases, too. Probably 99% out there touting 'grass fed' don't have

a clue what GRASS really is! They call anything green at any time of

year 'grass' and have this delusion it's good nutrition! Nothing

could be further from the truth. It's a heck of a tightrope walk to

use grass optimally.

Get a set of scales and weigh your milk production. And, weigh

what you are feeding, too! With kids on them, you can put the kids

up for 12 hours (usually I have to milk out in eight hours that first

60 days they are fresh as they are too tight if I wait for 12 hours)

once a week and milk out and extrapolate to what 24 hour production

would be. Keep that amount charted to see what the production curve

is on that particular doe. You want a nice long, bell curve look to

it that tells you she sustains an nice average daily production for

the 305 days. Some genetics will give you tons of milk for a short

time, but then she's nearly dry at 90 days and others they start out

low, but keep building to be still giving good amount even at 10

months after kidding.

A yearling first freshener if fed properly and of any genetic

merit at all should easily give you 1500 pounds of milk in a 305 day

lactation. On average that's a bit more than half a gallon of milk a

day. I have a knawing fear that many out there don't have a clue

what a good cow or goat really is, either. Culling is the hardest

lesson for the beginner to learn because it means 'butcher for the

freezer' and not 'sell them to a naive newbie.'

Your does kids need to be gaining a minimum of ten pounds per

month that first year of their life. They should be right at eighty

pounds at seven months of age when you breed them to kid as

yearlings.

Something few understand is that butterfat amount pretty much

remains constant but it can be diluted out with more or less milk

depending upon stage of lactation. By that I mean if she gives three

ounces of cream at peak lactation of two quarts of milk, it tastes

less rich than if she is at end of lactation and giving three ounces

of cream in a quart of milk.

I have drank an awful lot of goat milk from just about every

breed imaginable from pedigreed purebreds to brush goats to Boer to

Kinder to Nigies, to mixtures of all of the above. I have found that

almost all give excellent tasting milk and that the few who did not

it was a function of that individual, and not their breed. Probably

the crossbreds do have the advantage of having 'hybrid' vigor in that

they are not going to be line/inbred.

Donna

Safehaven Nubians

Dandridge, TN

>

> Hello!

>

> Well, I've been on this list for quite some time with out posting!

I do

> enjoy reading the information you all share as I get a chance.

Tonight is

> one of the rare moments that I am taking for reading e-mails. I

saw that

> about a month ago there was a discussion on grass fed dairy. I'm

very late

> in jumping into this...hope you don't mind if a share just a bit.

>

> We live out on the desert scrub land near the mountains. Our three

milk

> goats (all 1st time fresheners) browse the open range during the

day, and I

> put an alfalfa/grass hay down at night. They all have babies on

them during

> the day. When the kids are about 6-8 weeks we started separating

them at

> night. Our Sanaan doe at that point started giving 9-10 cups at

morning

> milking. One of our Alpine/LaMancha does is giving only 6 cups at

morning

> milking and another 2-3 in the evening. Even though her milk

production is

> less it is soooo excellent and makes it worth keeping her! Our

other

> Alpine/Lamancha doe is giving 6-9 cups a day with her single baby

on 24

> hours. Her milk is very excellent as well!

>

> The Alpine/LaManchas were raised on forage/hay alone with grain

give as

> occasional treats. The Sanaan came from a breeder following

traditional

> feeding patterns. We got her two or three day after kidding. We

do not

> prefer her milk, although it is not awful or anything. We have

also had a

> possible mastitis problem with this doe. I'm hoping that with

time, our

> program will get her into better health.

>

> There is a man in the nearby mountains that is raising sanaans on

just

> forage. He doesn't put hay down unless there is snow covering the

ground.

> He has does that will milk two or three years before being rebred.

He

> doesn't measure how much they each give, but the time I was there

is seemed

> he got a fair amount.

>

> Well, there is my tid bit. Thank you everyone for all the

wonderful sharing

> that goes on here!

>

> Blessings!

> The Milk Maiden

>

[Guest guest]

This is very informative. I agree a ration must be balanced. But the

reason that people are trying to lean away from not feeding grain is to

increase the CLA in their milks, cheeses and meats. I read a really good

article in a recent Acres magazine. I would recommend anyone interested

checking out their website and asking for their free copy. I believe goats,

sheep and cattle are not all the same though so it is best to do the

research.

Debbie Chikousky

Manitoba, Canada

gdchik@...

http://www.winnipegbeach.com/chikouskyfarms/

[Guest guest]

I've got to agree with Donna, grass fed goats are not going to be

healthy animals. Cows eat grass, goats eat higher up and when they eat

higher up you have less problems with worms.

Our goats have brush, weeds and trees to nibble on and are fed very

little " grain " at all. Basically just enough to keep the milkers on

the milk stand and the meat goats get enough to keep them coming when

we call. We've been doing this for 10 years, it works for us. I lost

one kid this past year to a fat momma rolling over on him.

Quit weighing milk about a year ago but am very happy with production

as are the folks who buy our goats.

Belinda in TN

[Guest guest]

I think perhaps " grass " is being taken too literally, and in the case

of goats, " browse " might be substituted without fear of leaving the

" grass-fed " classification. The main point is that grain is what

changes the properties of the milk and meat of animals consuming it.

Not all species and breeds " need " grain, or for that matter a

" balanced ration " to be " productive " . Not all grass-only (or browse)

animals are skinny and poor, either. We have been milking our cows

year 'round on 100% grass and hay for over 15 years and they are

thrifty and productive, and the forage isn't dairy quality. Do they

" produce " as much as a commercial dairy cow on full feed? Of course

not! But we have no grain bill, no metabloic disorders, no calving or

fertility problems, no mastitis, and about the only vet calls are for

health papers to go to a fair. The only " supplement " they get is salt

and a natural mineral.

To each his own, but there is another side to the story.

> I've got to agree with Donna, grass fed goats are not going to be

> healthy animals. Cows eat grass, goats eat higher up and when they eat

> higher up you have less problems with worms.

>

> Our goats have brush, weeds and trees to nibble on and are fed very

> little " grain " at all. Basically just enough to keep the milkers on

> the milk stand and the meat goats get enough to keep them coming when

> we call. We've been doing this for 10 years, it works for us. I lost

> one kid this past year to a fat momma rolling over on him.

>

> Quit weighing milk about a year ago but am very happy with production

> as are the folks who buy our goats.

>

> Belinda in TN

>

[Guest guest]

Phil,

Enjoyed the voice of reason and the points you made. Even in the

grain-fed industry, there's lots of babble about the problems grain

cause, including phosphorus, a by-product of grain consumption (stored

in phytic acid) which causes

pollution/environmental problems as well as restricting the intake of

minerals, animals and human alike. A not-so-lovely by-product of

that, is that it provides yet another reason to mess with plant

genetics. We contribute to the problems, by buying into non-traditional feeding practices, then sit and collectively whine when our food gets screwed with. Go figure.

" The objectives of this project are: to develop genetic approaches to

the phytic acid problem that are useful in crop breeding and

improvement; to work with crop breeders in the use of these genetic

resources; to cooperate with human and animal nutritionists who wish to

use these new types of 'low phytic acid' food and feed grains in

nutritional studies. "

http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/projects/projects.htm?ACCN_NO=406854 & fy=2003

-SharonDeut 11:14 He will put grass in the fields for your cattle, and you will have plenty to eat.On 7/12/06, Phil Lang <

baker_horace@...> wrote:

I think perhaps " grass " is being taken too literally, and in the case

of goats, " browse " might be substituted without fear of leaving the

" grass-fed " classification. The main point is that grain is what

changes the properties of the milk and meat of animals consuming it.

Not all species and breeds " need " grain, or for that matter a

" balanced ration " to be " productive " . Not all grass-only (or browse)

animals are skinny and poor, either. We have been milking our cows

year 'round on 100% grass and hay for over 15 years and they are

thrifty and productive, and the forage isn't dairy quality. Do they

" produce " as much as a commercial dairy cow on full feed? Of course

not! But we have no grain bill, no metabloic disorders, no calving or

fertility problems, no mastitis, and about the only vet calls are for

health papers to go to a fair. The only " supplement " they get is salt

and a natural mineral.

To each his own, but there is another side to the story.

[Guest guest]

I have very little to contribute to this important thread.... except to comment on Debbie's suggestion that the reason for avoiding grains is to increase the CLA. There are several reasons to lean away/avoid grains. One emerging reason is that by avoiding grains in cows you may significantly decrease the chances that your cows will harbor the BAD E. coli 0157:H7.

Ted

Re: Re: Grass fed goats

..

[Guest guest]

I do have a tendency to be too literal at times.

I watch as our animals (goats, cows and hogs) nip the tops of the

wheat, oats and rye we have out in our fields. Does this mean the milk

and meat will be inferior? I can't believe that to be true. I'm sure

that at times your hay " heads up " before you get to cutting it. Do you

not feed this hay? I doubt it. Where is the line drawn as to how much

" grain " an animal can eat before the meat and milk suffer?

Belinda in TN

> I think perhaps " grass " is being taken too literally, and in the case

> of goats, " browse " might be substituted without fear of leaving the

> " grass-fed " classification. The main point is that grain is what

> changes the properties of the milk and meat of animals consuming it.

>

> Not all species and breeds " need " grain, or for that matter a

> " balanced ration " to be " productive " . Not all grass-only (or browse)

> animals are skinny and poor, either. We have been milking our cows

> year 'round on 100% grass and hay for over 15 years and they are

> thrifty and productive, and the forage isn't dairy quality. Do they

> " produce " as much as a commercial dairy cow on full feed? Of course

> not! But we have no grain bill, no metabloic disorders, no calving or

> fertility problems, no mastitis, and about the only vet calls are for

> health papers to go to a fair. The only " supplement " they get is salt

> and a natural mineral.

>

> To each his own, but there is another side to the story.

>

[Guest guest]

My personal opinion everyone is taking this grass fed to literal. I for one like my beef finished on grain, Nothing can beat the taste and texture. We do however have our milk cows on grass and supplement them with alfalfa and beet pulp. We are in a draught here and grass will be getting pretty scarce in a few short days if we don't have rain. I had one woman to go so far as to ask me for my feed dealers name and phone number, to check and see what I was feeding my cows. Well, needless to say I could not hang up fast enough. Our milk is tested each morning and we have some of the best raw milk, IF not the best in Texas. From real Jersey cows......Ina

Re: Grass fed goats

I do have a tendency to be too literal at times.I watch as our animals (goats, cows and hogs) nip the tops of thewheat, oats and rye we have out in our fields. Does this mean the milkand meat will be inferior? I can't believe that to be true. I'm surethat at times your hay "heads up" before you get to cutting it. Do younot feed this hay? I doubt it. Where is the line drawn as to how much"grain" an animal can eat before the meat and milk suffer?Belinda in TN> I think perhaps "grass" is being taken too literally, and in the case> of goats, "browse" might be substituted without fear of leaving the> "grass-fed" classification. The main point is that grain is what> changes the properties of the milk and meat of animals consuming it.> > Not all species and breeds "need" grain, or for that matter a> "balanced ration" to be "productive". Not all grass-only (or browse)> animals are skinny and poor, either. We have been milking our cows> year 'round on 100% grass and hay for over 15 years and they are> thrifty and productive, and the forage isn't dairy quality. Do they> "produce" as much as a commercial dairy cow on full feed? Of course> not! But we have no grain bill, no metabloic disorders, no calving or> fertility problems, no mastitis, and about the only vet calls are for> health papers to go to a fair. The only "supplement" they get is salt> and a natural mineral.> > To each his own, but there is another side to the story.>

[Guest guest]

I'm sure

> that at times your hay " heads up " before you get to cutting it. Do you

> not feed this hay? I doubt it. Where is the line drawn as to how much

> " grain " an animal can eat before the meat and milk suffer?

>

> Belinda in TN

The cow is not going to digest the seeds. One of the ways farmers

add new plants to pasture is to mix the seed in the feed because it

will pass through the cow and grow in the pasture. I suspect that is

the purpose for them eating the seeds - to spread the seed around.

The Stockman Grass Farmer has had many interesting articles on

research into no grain vs some grain. It appears even small amounts of

grain will affect CLA levels. That is a decision each farmer will

have to make.

There are enough of us producing grain free meat and milk very

successfully to prove it certainly can be done. I no longer have the

huge fluctuations in butterfat that came with feeding grain and

pasture. Milk production is much more steady, cows don't ever get

thin, no worries about ketosis because a grain fat cow crashes. A

grass fat cow has none of those problems. The poor feed man and vet

certainly don't like my way of farming. Oh well!!!

Cheyenne

[Guest guest]

If a cow will not digest seeds then how could the grain hurt them?

Seems like you could feed as much grain as you want and all they'd do

is seed the fields with the grain in their manure. I've heard that

grain will alter CLA but what you're saying, Cheyenne, doesn't agree

with that at all. If the grain goes thru them and out the other end it

couldn't really alter a whole lot of anything.

Our beef boys and girls get nothing but what they find in the field

but we do have wheat, oats and probably some rye out there which

everyone seems to enjoy. If this is going to cause a problem for the

animals, how do I go about eliminating it from my fields?

Are we all talking about grain as in whole grains or are some of us

using the word grain to mean " feed " as in processed stuff with

sweetner added?

Belinda in TN

> The cow is not going to digest the seeds. One of the ways farmers

> add new plants to pasture is to mix the seed in the feed because it

> will pass through the cow and grow in the pasture. I suspect that is

> the purpose for them eating the seeds - to spread the seed around.

>

> The Stockman Grass Farmer has had many interesting articles on

> research into no grain vs some grain. It appears even small amounts of

> grain will affect CLA levels. That is a decision each farmer will

> have to make.

>

> There are enough of us producing grain free meat and milk very

> successfully to prove it certainly can be done. I no longer have the

> huge fluctuations in butterfat that came with feeding grain and

> pasture. Milk production is much more steady, cows don't ever get

> thin, no worries about ketosis because a grain fat cow crashes. A

> grass fat cow has none of those problems. The poor feed man and vet

> certainly don't like my way of farming. Oh well!!!

>

> Cheyenne

>

[Guest guest]

I think to compare grass seed to grain is apples and oranges, whether

it is digested or not. And yes " grain " can mean different things to

different people. Farm store sweet feed is a world away from Organic

corn, but both may lower CLA and change fatty acids. Adding roasted

soybeans increases protein to levels that would never be found in

nature and may have other consequences as well. There is far more to

the issue than how healthy the product is for humans.

[Guest guest]

Here's a great grass-fed article by Fallon & Enig at Weston A. Price: http://www.westonaprice.org/farming/splendor.htmlSharon, NH

[Guest guest]

Belinda,

I was writing about the seeds in ripe hay passing through. Many

larger seeds would also pass through if left whole.

When most of us talk about grain feeding it is in ground up form.

Even then a lot passes through. I've been to pasture walks where the

cow pies are so full of corn chips you wonder what the point in

feeding it is. There are much cheaper and better forms of fertilizer.

There definately is a difference between someone feeding a few

pounds compared to a 50% concentrate diet, but if even small amounts

can mess up metabolism or lower CLA I'll stick to forage. I also like

the simplicity of no grain to mess with. No dust, grinding it, feeding

it, sweeping alleys, etc. We save a LOT of time and $ not growing it

or messing with it.

I think we will see a lot more research on this and may be very

surprised at other benefits in grass fed that haven't been discovered

or figured out yet.

I have no problem with someone feeding a few pounds if they so

desire. A couple of my best friends feed 4 to 6 pounds of oats, corn,

barley to their cows. They also respect and appreciate what I'm doing

and are leaning towards eliminating grain. It is a big decision as all

of agriculture is pushing the grain system, and a lot of big salaries

(parasites) are dependant on the continuation of this broken system.

Most important is keeping an open mind and always looking for better

more healthful ways to do things. Industrial ag has done a good job of

eliminating intelligent and independant thought the last 50 or so

years. Many of us are changing that!

Cheyenne

>

> If a cow will not digest seeds then how could the grain hurt them?

> Are we all talking about grain as in whole grains or are some of us

> using the word grain to mean " feed " as in processed stuff with

> sweetner added?

>

> Belinda in TN

[Guest guest]

Cheyenne,Here's just one of many pieces of research backing you up. On average, grass-fed beef will provide approximately 123 mg of CLA for a standard hamburger at 10% fat. The same hamburger produced from grain-fed beef would provide 48.3 mg. (i.e., grass-fed = 1.23 g CLA/ 100g lipid; 12.3 mg/g lipid; 10% lipid/serving = 123 mg CLA).

Research to date would support the argument that grass-fed beef is higher in Vitamin A, Vitamin E, CLA and Omega 3 when lipids are compared on a gram of fatty acid/gram of lipid basis. Little work has been done to compare grass-fed cattle to grain-fed at a constant degree of fatness, most studies harvest cattle after a specific number of days on feed rather than processing cattle at a logical slaughter endpoint based on degree of fatness. Because grass-fed cattle are fed lower energy diets, they tend to fatten more slowly and are slaughtered at a lower % body fat. As percent body fat decreases so does the concentration of these important lipids like CLA and omega-3 in whole cuts of beef.IMO, this is a must read - some good charts....http://www.csuchico.edu/agr/grassfedbeef/health-benefits/index.html

Sharon

" There definately is a difference between someone feeding a few

pounds compared to a 50% concentrate diet, but if even small amounts

can mess up metabolism or lower CLA I'll stick to forage. I also like

the simplicity of no grain to mess with. No dust, grinding it, feeding

it, sweeping alleys, etc. We save a LOT of time and $ not growing it

or messing with it.

I think we will see a lot more research on this and may be very

surprised at other benefits in grass fed that haven't been discovered

or figured out yet. "

Cheyenne

[Guest guest]

Sooo if " even small amounts can mess up metabolism or lower CLA " what

does one do with the grain growing in the hay field? I'd always

thought the bad grain feeding was the sweet feed from the co-op, not

whole grains, esp grains in the field or in hay. Now that we've

determined that my grass fed beef is not grass fed because of the

wheat, oats and rye growing in the fields they graze, what do I do?

Belinda

> Belinda,

> I was writing about the seeds in ripe hay passing through. Many

> larger seeds would also pass through if left whole.

>

> When most of us talk about grain feeding it is in ground up form.

> Even then a lot passes through. I've been to pasture walks where the

> cow pies are so full of corn chips you wonder what the point in

> feeding it is. There are much cheaper and better forms of fertilizer.

>

> There definately is a difference between someone feeding a few

> pounds compared to a 50% concentrate diet, but if even small amounts

> can mess up metabolism or lower CLA I'll stick to forage. I also like

> the simplicity of no grain to mess with. No dust, grinding it, feeding

> it, sweeping alleys, etc. We save a LOT of time and $ not growing it

> or messing with it.

>

> I think we will see a lot more research on this and may be very

> surprised at other benefits in grass fed that haven't been discovered

> or figured out yet.

>

> I have no problem with someone feeding a few pounds if they so

> desire. A couple of my best friends feed 4 to 6 pounds of oats, corn,

> barley to their cows. They also respect and appreciate what I'm doing

> and are leaning towards eliminating grain. It is a big decision as all

> of agriculture is pushing the grain system, and a lot of big salaries

> (parasites) are dependant on the continuation of this broken system.

>

> Most important is keeping an open mind and always looking for better

> more healthful ways to do things. Industrial ag has done a good job of

> eliminating intelligent and independant thought the last 50 or so

> years. Many of us are changing that!

>

> Cheyenne

[Guest guest]

How much is out there? I would question whether they are actually

digesting it or just spreading the seed around. Usually oats or wheat

can't compete with pasture. They are annuals and have to be reseeded

so either some is going to seed where the parent plant grew or the

animals are eating it and passing seed in new area to regrow.

The young grain plants make excellent food for the animals. I

plant oats every spring and pasture them off before they mature.

Cheyenne

>

what

> does one do with the grain growing in the hay field? I'd always

> thought the bad grain feeding was the sweet feed from the co-op, not

> whole grains, esp grains in the field or in hay. Now that we've

> determined that my grass fed beef is not grass fed because of the

> wheat, oats and rye growing in the fields they graze, what do I do?

>

> Belinda

>