Re: Normal Fungal Ecology

[Guest guest]

Brad,

I like the way you think -- expected fungal content of settled dust based on site-specific conditions. That's what we really mean when we talk about Condition 1. It isn't "normal" and it isn't "ecology".

Here's how I determine Condition 1:

Rule out Condition 3 and Condition 2.

Viola!

Steve Temes

Why not use"fungal content of settled dust" in a well maintained building of the type and use being studied at that location and time? Normal fungal ecology makes it sound like there is mold growth in the building and we just want to see how much is normal. Not the same as "ball parking" the expected amount of fungal components in the dust of a well maintained building. "Ecology - study of the interrelationships between organisms and their environments. "

In my house the only relationship is that we vacuum and wipe them up every week so the building surfaces are reasonably clean. No big scientific interrelationship as "ecology" tends to indicate. Ecology is the wrong term. Normal is even the wrong term, maybe "expected" given building conditions at the time of sampling (if recent clean, expect lower than average / normal).

Bradley Harr

Sr. Environmental Scientist

[Guest guest]

What is this talk about Ecology? I submit that there is NOT a person on this list capable of speaking about fungal ecology. What I am hearing is NOT fungal ecology, but rather the distribution of fungi, however poorly defined, identified on building surfaces. This is NOT ecology, but a product of the fungal ecology surrounding the building. No fungus ever evolved to live in a building. It is fortuitous that fungi are present in and on buildings.One of the reasons that looking at fungi in buildings is NOT fungal ecology is simply because many that we identify are NOT living. That is a lot of NOT's :-)This may be a fine point, but I bring it up to corral this group, so we understand our limitations and NOT take on air of erudition we do NOT have and cannot possibly attain.Fungi in buildings, is I admit, a sometimes nebulous, moving target, and hard to pigeon hole. But let us use terms correctly and understand them fully before we voice opinions about them.I often feel, when I hear this kind of talk, e.g., fungal ecology, that it is like a person who watches a lot of nature on TV. They seem to be very knowledgeable about the subject, but are quite lacking when asked about relationships, distributions, etc. That is, the detail a person would have who really knows what the subject is and has studied it. The detail necessary to make intelligent comments and back them up with data.I apologize if these comments seems harsh. They are meant to be dispassionate observations. When we increase our education and elevate our understanding, we can command a higher standard of all of those around us, including the organizations that govern the industry. ••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• D. Shane, Ph.D.Normal fungal ecology depends on the environment. It is different for:Clean rooms,Hospitals,Total Brick/Masonry/Steel and glass buildingsWood frame structuresBuilding without AC that leave windows openBuilding on tropical islands.Building in warm and humid climates (especially with dewpoints about 60°FCrawlspaces or other spaces that are open to dirt, variable depending upon soil moistureBuildings in desert climatesLevel of air filtration in the environmentand so on.The issue here is one where the IEPs have to estimate what they believe is the normal fungal ecology for thesedifferent buildings and circumstances.There are a number of studies in the literature that claim to look at normal fungal ecology. However, they do not take into account building type, climate, etc.>From a remediation viewpoint, if one picks very low numbers for PRV, you will most likely be belowthe normal fungal ecology for most environments.>From a genera viewpoint, the most common genera should be Clado. This is the most common genera worldwide. It should be the predominant genera in most cases, but this can vary depending on how low the levels are.We use "control areas" that are not affected by water intrusion problems as a potential way of assessing the normal fungal ecology in a particular building. This is not always a perfect measure but it can be useful. However, in many cases the whole building is affected and no control area exists. This is where literature references can be cited.Normal fungal ecology does exist. Just because no certification body has put numbers to this concept for various environments does not negate its existence.Bob s

[Guest guest]

, Write to IICRC. I submitted some comments during the review periood of S520. I can't remember whether I wrote this one or not. Wei Tang QLab Shane wrote: What is this talk about Ecology? I submit that there is NOT a person on this list capable of speaking about fungal ecology. What I am hearing is NOT fungal ecology, but rather the distribution of fungi, however poorly defined, identified on building surfaces.

This is NOT ecology, but a product of the fungal ecology surrounding the building. No fungus ever evolved to live in a building. It is fortuitous that fungi are present in and on buildings. One of the reasons that looking at fungi in buildings is NOT fungal ecology is simply because many that we identify are NOT living. That is a lot of NOT's :-) This may be a fine point, but I bring it up to corral this group, so we understand our limitations and NOT take on air of erudition we do NOT have and cannot possibly attain. Fungi in buildings, is I admit, a sometimes nebulous, moving target, and hard to pigeon hole. But let us use terms correctly and understand them fully before we voice opinions about them. I often feel, when I hear this kind of talk,

e.g., fungal ecology, that it is like a person who watches a lot of nature on TV. They seem to be very knowledgeable about the subject, but are quite lacking when asked about relationships, distributions, etc. That is, the detail a person would have who really knows what the subject is and has studied it. The detail necessary to make intelligent comments and back them up with data. I apologize if these comments seems harsh. They are meant to be dispassionate observations. When we increase our education and elevate our understanding, we can command a higher standard of all of those around us, including the organizations that govern the industry. ••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• D. Shane, Ph.D. Normal fungal ecology depends on the environment. It is different for:Clean rooms,Hospitals,Total Brick/Masonry/Steel and glass buildingsWood frame structuresBuilding without AC that leave windows openBuilding on tropical islands.Building in warm and humid climates (especially with dewpoints about 60°FCrawlspaces or other spaces that are open to dirt, variable depending upon soil moistureBuildings in

desert climatesLevel of air filtration in the environmentand so on.The issue here is one where the IEPs have to estimate what they believe is the normal fungal ecology for thesedifferent buildings and circumstances.There are a number of studies in the literature that claim to look at normal fungal ecology. However, they do not take into account building type, climate, etc.>From a remediation viewpoint, if one picks very low numbers for PRV, you will most likely be belowthe normal fungal ecology for most environments.>From a genera viewpoint, the most common genera should be Clado. This is the most common genera worldwide. It should be the predominant genera in most cases, but this can vary depending on how low the levels are.We use "control areas" that are not affected by water intrusion problems as a potential way of assessing the normal fungal ecology in a particular building. This is not always a perfect measure but it can be useful. However, in many cases the whole building is affected and no control

area exists. This is where literature references can be cited.Normal fungal ecology does exist. Just because no certification body has put numbers to this concept for various environments does not negate its existence.Bob

s Wei Tang, Ph.D. Lab Director QLab5 DriveCherry Hill, NJ 08003www.QLabUSA.com

[Guest guest]

Brad:

I too share the concern over use of “normal” and “ecology.” Lay persons see “ecology” terms and assume that growth is occurring.

I find my self using “reasonably anticipated trappings.” Seems to work for me, and it does not take a lot of explaining what it means.

Hello Bob,

Why not use " fungal content of settled dust " in a well maintained building of the type and use being studied at that location and time? Normal fungal ecology makes it sound like there is mold growth in the building and we just want to see how much is normal. Not the same as " ball parking " the expected amount of fungal components in the dust of a well maintained building. " Ecology - study of the interrelationships between organisms and their environments. "

In my house the only relationship is that we vacuum and wipe them up every week so the building surfaces are reasonably clean. No big scientific interrelationship as " ecology " tends to indicate. Ecology is the wrong term. Normal is even the wrong term, maybe " expected " given building conditions at the time of sampling (if recent clean, expect lower than average / normal).

Bradley Harr

Sr. Environmental Scientist

Re: Normal Fungal Ecology

Normal fungal ecology depends on the environment. It is different for:

Clean rooms,

Hospitals,

Total Brick/Masonry/Steel and glass buildings

Wood frame structures

Building without AC that leave windows open

Building on tropical islands.

Building in warm and humid climates (especially with dewpoints about

60°F

Crawlspaces or other spaces that are open to dirt, variable depending

upon soil moisture

Buildings in desert climates

Level of air filtration in the environment

and so on.

The issue here is one where the IEPs have to estimate what they believe

is the normal fungal ecology for these

different buildings and circumstances.

There are a number of studies in the literature that claim to look at

normal fungal ecology. However, they do not take into account building

type, climate, etc.

>From a remediation viewpoint, if one picks very low numbers for PRV,

you will most likely be below

the normal fungal ecology for most environments.

>From a genera viewpoint, the most common genera should be Clado. This

is the most common genera worldwide. It should be the predominant

genera in most cases, but this can vary depending on how low the levels

are.

We use " control areas " that are not affected by water intrusion

problems as a potential way of assessing the normal fungal ecology in a

particular building. This is not always a perfect measure but it can

be useful. However, in many cases the whole building is affected and

no control area exists. This is where literature references can be

cited.

Normal fungal ecology does exist. Just because no certification body

has put numbers to this concept for various environments does not

negate its existence.

Bob s

[Guest guest]

:

Respectfully disagree. My understanding/definition of ECOLOGY is: The study of how organisms interact with each other and their physical environment.

Yes.....what many folks are trying to accomplish is more akin to determining the distribution of fungal spores, but for us that are a bit more broad minded, and looking beyond the spore count, fungal ecology makes sense. This said, I don’t use the term, but I am trying to understand the ecology when I am assessing biologicals (e.g., molds, bacteria, algaes, insects, etc.)

What is this talk about Ecology? I submit that there is NOT a person on this list capable of speaking about fungal ecology. What I am hearing is NOT fungal ecology, but rather the distribution of fungi, however poorly defined, identified on building surfaces. This is NOT ecology, but a product of the fungal ecology surrounding the building. No fungus ever evolved to live in a building. It is fortuitous that fungi are present in and on buildings.

One of the reasons that looking at fungi in buildings is NOT fungal ecology is simply because many that we identify are NOT living. That is a lot of NOT's :-)

This may be a fine point, but I bring it up to corral this group, so we understand our limitations and NOT take on air of erudition we do NOT have and cannot possibly attain.

Fungi in buildings, is I admit, a sometimes nebulous, moving target, and hard to pigeon hole. But let us use terms correctly and understand them fully before we voice opinions about them.

I often feel, when I hear this kind of talk, e.g., fungal ecology, that it is like a person who watches a lot of nature on TV. They seem to be very knowledgeable about the subject, but are quite lacking when asked about relationships, distributions, etc. That is, the detail a person would have who really knows what the subject is and has studied it. The detail necessary to make intelligent comments and back them up with data.

I apologize if these comments seems harsh. They are meant to be dispassionate observations. When we increase our education and elevate our understanding, we can command a higher standard of all of those around us, including the organizations that govern the industry.

•••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

D. Shane, Ph.D.

Normal fungal ecology depends on the environment. It is different for:

Clean rooms,

Hospitals,

Total Brick/Masonry/Steel and glass buildings

Wood frame structures

Building without AC that leave windows open

Building on tropical islands.

Building in warm and humid climates (especially with dewpoints about

60°F

Crawlspaces or other spaces that are open to dirt, variable depending

upon soil moisture

Buildings in desert climates

Level of air filtration in the environment

and so on.

The issue here is one where the IEPs have to estimate what they believe

is the normal fungal ecology for these

different buildings and circumstances.

There are a number of studies in the literature that claim to look at

normal fungal ecology. However, they do not take into account building

type, climate, etc.

>From a remediation viewpoint, if one picks very low numbers for PRV,

you will most likely be below

the normal fungal ecology for most environments.

>From a genera viewpoint, the most common genera should be Clado. This

is the most common genera worldwide. It should be the predominant

genera in most cases, but this can vary depending on how low the levels

are.

We use " control areas " that are not affected by water intrusion

problems as a potential way of assessing the normal fungal ecology in a

particular building. This is not always a perfect measure but it can

be useful. However, in many cases the whole building is affected and

no control area exists. This is where literature references can be

cited.

Normal fungal ecology does exist. Just because no certification body

has put numbers to this concept for various environments does not

negate its existence.

Bob s

[Guest guest]

:

Respectfully disagree. My understanding/definition of ECOLOGY is: The study of how organisms interact with each other and their physical environment.

Yes.....what many folks are trying to accomplish is more akin to determining the distribution of fungal spores, but for us that are a bit more broad minded, and looking beyond the spore count, fungal ecology makes sense. This said, I don’t use the term, but I am trying to understand the ecology when I am assessing biologicals (e.g., molds, bacteria, algaes, insects, etc.)

What is this talk about Ecology? I submit that there is NOT a person on this list capable of speaking about fungal ecology. What I am hearing is NOT fungal ecology, but rather the distribution of fungi, however poorly defined, identified on building surfaces. This is NOT ecology, but a product of the fungal ecology surrounding the building. No fungus ever evolved to live in a building. It is fortuitous that fungi are present in and on buildings.

One of the reasons that looking at fungi in buildings is NOT fungal ecology is simply because many that we identify are NOT living. That is a lot of NOT's :-)

This may be a fine point, but I bring it up to corral this group, so we understand our limitations and NOT take on air of erudition we do NOT have and cannot possibly attain.

Fungi in buildings, is I admit, a sometimes nebulous, moving target, and hard to pigeon hole. But let us use terms correctly and understand them fully before we voice opinions about them.

I often feel, when I hear this kind of talk, e.g., fungal ecology, that it is like a person who watches a lot of nature on TV. They seem to be very knowledgeable about the subject, but are quite lacking when asked about relationships, distributions, etc. That is, the detail a person would have who really knows what the subject is and has studied it. The detail necessary to make intelligent comments and back them up with data.

I apologize if these comments seems harsh. They are meant to be dispassionate observations. When we increase our education and elevate our understanding, we can command a higher standard of all of those around us, including the organizations that govern the industry.

•••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

D. Shane, Ph.D.

Normal fungal ecology depends on the environment. It is different for:

Clean rooms,

Hospitals,

Total Brick/Masonry/Steel and glass buildings

Wood frame structures

Building without AC that leave windows open

Building on tropical islands.

Building in warm and humid climates (especially with dewpoints about

60°F

Crawlspaces or other spaces that are open to dirt, variable depending

upon soil moisture

Buildings in desert climates

Level of air filtration in the environment

and so on.

The issue here is one where the IEPs have to estimate what they believe

is the normal fungal ecology for these

different buildings and circumstances.

There are a number of studies in the literature that claim to look at

normal fungal ecology. However, they do not take into account building

type, climate, etc.

>From a remediation viewpoint, if one picks very low numbers for PRV,

you will most likely be below

the normal fungal ecology for most environments.

>From a genera viewpoint, the most common genera should be Clado. This

is the most common genera worldwide. It should be the predominant

genera in most cases, but this can vary depending on how low the levels

are.

We use " control areas " that are not affected by water intrusion

problems as a potential way of assessing the normal fungal ecology in a

particular building. This is not always a perfect measure but it can

be useful. However, in many cases the whole building is affected and

no control area exists. This is where literature references can be

cited.

Normal fungal ecology does exist. Just because no certification body

has put numbers to this concept for various environments does not

negate its existence.

Bob s

[Guest guest]

:

Respectfully disagree. My understanding/definition of ECOLOGY is: The study of how organisms interact with each other and their physical environment.

Yes.....what many folks are trying to accomplish is more akin to determining the distribution of fungal spores, but for us that are a bit more broad minded, and looking beyond the spore count, fungal ecology makes sense. This said, I don’t use the term, but I am trying to understand the ecology when I am assessing biologicals (e.g., molds, bacteria, algaes, insects, etc.)

What is this talk about Ecology? I submit that there is NOT a person on this list capable of speaking about fungal ecology. What I am hearing is NOT fungal ecology, but rather the distribution of fungi, however poorly defined, identified on building surfaces. This is NOT ecology, but a product of the fungal ecology surrounding the building. No fungus ever evolved to live in a building. It is fortuitous that fungi are present in and on buildings.

One of the reasons that looking at fungi in buildings is NOT fungal ecology is simply because many that we identify are NOT living. That is a lot of NOT's :-)

This may be a fine point, but I bring it up to corral this group, so we understand our limitations and NOT take on air of erudition we do NOT have and cannot possibly attain.

Fungi in buildings, is I admit, a sometimes nebulous, moving target, and hard to pigeon hole. But let us use terms correctly and understand them fully before we voice opinions about them.

I often feel, when I hear this kind of talk, e.g., fungal ecology, that it is like a person who watches a lot of nature on TV. They seem to be very knowledgeable about the subject, but are quite lacking when asked about relationships, distributions, etc. That is, the detail a person would have who really knows what the subject is and has studied it. The detail necessary to make intelligent comments and back them up with data.

I apologize if these comments seems harsh. They are meant to be dispassionate observations. When we increase our education and elevate our understanding, we can command a higher standard of all of those around us, including the organizations that govern the industry.

•••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

D. Shane, Ph.D.

Normal fungal ecology depends on the environment. It is different for:

Clean rooms,

Hospitals,

Total Brick/Masonry/Steel and glass buildings

Wood frame structures

Building without AC that leave windows open

Building on tropical islands.

Building in warm and humid climates (especially with dewpoints about

60°F

Crawlspaces or other spaces that are open to dirt, variable depending

upon soil moisture

Buildings in desert climates

Level of air filtration in the environment

and so on.

The issue here is one where the IEPs have to estimate what they believe

is the normal fungal ecology for these

different buildings and circumstances.

There are a number of studies in the literature that claim to look at

normal fungal ecology. However, they do not take into account building

type, climate, etc.

>From a remediation viewpoint, if one picks very low numbers for PRV,

you will most likely be below

the normal fungal ecology for most environments.

>From a genera viewpoint, the most common genera should be Clado. This

is the most common genera worldwide. It should be the predominant

genera in most cases, but this can vary depending on how low the levels

are.

We use " control areas " that are not affected by water intrusion

problems as a potential way of assessing the normal fungal ecology in a

particular building. This is not always a perfect measure but it can

be useful. However, in many cases the whole building is affected and

no control area exists. This is where literature references can be

cited.

Normal fungal ecology does exist. Just because no certification body

has put numbers to this concept for various environments does not

negate its existence.

Bob s

[Guest guest]

Several mycologists that I work with use "normal background" for conditions on building materials that have not been wet for prolong period of time to promote mold growth. This is what I use in the lab for surface and bulk samples. MoldSense Fungal Biomass Levels: 1 Normal background2A Settled biomass 2B Residual biomass 3 Actual mold growth 1 Normal background: - Low density of spore or "hyphal fragments" settled from air 2A Settled biomass: - High density of fungal biomass settled from air - Spore of water-damage indicators settled from air 2B Residual biomass: - Fungal biomass remained after mechanical removal or carry-over from other surface (mycelium can be seen, not just fragments of hyphae) 3 Actual mold growth: - High density of fungal biomass representing a mold growth due to excess water content Wei Tang QLab Geyer wrote: Brad:I too share the concern over use of “normal” and “ecology.” Lay persons see “ecology” terms and assume that growth is occurring.I find my self using “reasonably anticipated trappings.”

Seems to work for me, and it does not take a lot of explaining what it means.On 8/22/07 6:16 PM, "Brad Harr" <bdharrsummitenviroinc> wrote: Hello Bob,Why not use"fungal content of settled dust" in a well maintained building of the type and use being studied at that location and time? Normal fungal ecology makes it sound like there is mold growth in the building and we just want to see how much is normal. Not the same as "ball parking" the expected amount of fungal components in the dust of a well maintained building. "Ecology - study of the interrelationships between organisms and their environments. "In my house the only relationship is that we vacuum and wipe them up every week so the building surfaces are reasonably clean. No big scientific interrelationship as "ecology" tends to indicate. Ecology is the wrong term. Normal is even the wrong term, maybe "expected" given building conditions at the time of sampling (if recent clean, expect lower than average / normal).Bradley HarrSr. Environmental Scientist Re: Normal Fungal Ecology Normal fungal ecology depends on the environment. It is different for:Clean rooms,Hospitals,Total Brick/Masonry/Steel and glass buildingsWood frame structuresBuilding without AC that leave windows openBuilding on tropical islands.Building in warm and humid climates (especially with dewpoints about 60°FCrawlspaces or other spaces that are open to dirt, variable depending upon soil moistureBuildings in desert climatesLevel of air filtration in the environmentand so on.The issue here is one where the IEPs have to estimate what they believe is the normal fungal ecology for thesedifferent buildings and circumstances.There are a number of studies in the literature that

claim to look at normal fungal ecology. However, they do not take into account building type, climate, etc.>From a remediation viewpoint, if one picks very low numbers for PRV, you will most likely be belowthe normal fungal ecology for most environments.>From a genera viewpoint, the most common genera should be Clado. This is the most common genera worldwide. It should be the predominant genera in most cases, but this can vary depending on how low the levels are.We use "control areas" that are not affected by water intrusion problems as a potential way of assessing the normal fungal ecology in a particular building. This is not always a perfect measure but it can be useful. However, in many cases the whole building is affected and no control area exists. This is where literature references can be cited.Normal fungal

ecology does exist. Just because no certification body has put numbers to this concept for various environments does not negate its existence.Bob s Wei Tang, Ph.D. Lab

Director QLab5 DriveCherry Hill, NJ 08003www.QLabUSA.com

[Guest guest]

Several mycologists that I work with use "normal background" for conditions on building materials that have not been wet for prolong period of time to promote mold growth. This is what I use in the lab for surface and bulk samples. MoldSense Fungal Biomass Levels: 1 Normal background2A Settled biomass 2B Residual biomass 3 Actual mold growth 1 Normal background: - Low density of spore or "hyphal fragments" settled from air 2A Settled biomass: - High density of fungal biomass settled from air - Spore of water-damage indicators settled from air 2B Residual biomass: - Fungal biomass remained after mechanical removal or carry-over from other surface (mycelium can be seen, not just fragments of hyphae) 3 Actual mold growth: - High density of fungal biomass representing a mold growth due to excess water content Wei Tang QLab Geyer wrote: Brad:I too share the concern over use of “normal” and “ecology.” Lay persons see “ecology” terms and assume that growth is occurring.I find my self using “reasonably anticipated trappings.”

Seems to work for me, and it does not take a lot of explaining what it means.On 8/22/07 6:16 PM, "Brad Harr" <bdharrsummitenviroinc> wrote: Hello Bob,Why not use"fungal content of settled dust" in a well maintained building of the type and use being studied at that location and time? Normal fungal ecology makes it sound like there is mold growth in the building and we just want to see how much is normal. Not the same as "ball parking" the expected amount of fungal components in the dust of a well maintained building. "Ecology - study of the interrelationships between organisms and their environments. "In my house the only relationship is that we vacuum and wipe them up every week so the building surfaces are reasonably clean. No big scientific interrelationship as "ecology" tends to indicate. Ecology is the wrong term. Normal is even the wrong term, maybe "expected" given building conditions at the time of sampling (if recent clean, expect lower than average / normal).Bradley HarrSr. Environmental Scientist Re: Normal Fungal Ecology Normal fungal ecology depends on the environment. It is different for:Clean rooms,Hospitals,Total Brick/Masonry/Steel and glass buildingsWood frame structuresBuilding without AC that leave windows openBuilding on tropical islands.Building in warm and humid climates (especially with dewpoints about 60°FCrawlspaces or other spaces that are open to dirt, variable depending upon soil moistureBuildings in desert climatesLevel of air filtration in the environmentand so on.The issue here is one where the IEPs have to estimate what they believe is the normal fungal ecology for thesedifferent buildings and circumstances.There are a number of studies in the literature that

claim to look at normal fungal ecology. However, they do not take into account building type, climate, etc.>From a remediation viewpoint, if one picks very low numbers for PRV, you will most likely be belowthe normal fungal ecology for most environments.>From a genera viewpoint, the most common genera should be Clado. This is the most common genera worldwide. It should be the predominant genera in most cases, but this can vary depending on how low the levels are.We use "control areas" that are not affected by water intrusion problems as a potential way of assessing the normal fungal ecology in a particular building. This is not always a perfect measure but it can be useful. However, in many cases the whole building is affected and no control area exists. This is where literature references can be cited.Normal fungal

ecology does exist. Just because no certification body has put numbers to this concept for various environments does not negate its existence.Bob s Wei Tang, Ph.D. Lab

Director QLab5 DriveCherry Hill, NJ 08003www.QLabUSA.com

[Guest guest]

Several mycologists that I work with use "normal background" for conditions on building materials that have not been wet for prolong period of time to promote mold growth. This is what I use in the lab for surface and bulk samples. MoldSense Fungal Biomass Levels: 1 Normal background2A Settled biomass 2B Residual biomass 3 Actual mold growth 1 Normal background: - Low density of spore or "hyphal fragments" settled from air 2A Settled biomass: - High density of fungal biomass settled from air - Spore of water-damage indicators settled from air 2B Residual biomass: - Fungal biomass remained after mechanical removal or carry-over from other surface (mycelium can be seen, not just fragments of hyphae) 3 Actual mold growth: - High density of fungal biomass representing a mold growth due to excess water content Wei Tang QLab Geyer wrote: Brad:I too share the concern over use of “normal” and “ecology.” Lay persons see “ecology” terms and assume that growth is occurring.I find my self using “reasonably anticipated trappings.”

Seems to work for me, and it does not take a lot of explaining what it means.On 8/22/07 6:16 PM, "Brad Harr" <bdharrsummitenviroinc> wrote: Hello Bob,Why not use"fungal content of settled dust" in a well maintained building of the type and use being studied at that location and time? Normal fungal ecology makes it sound like there is mold growth in the building and we just want to see how much is normal. Not the same as "ball parking" the expected amount of fungal components in the dust of a well maintained building. "Ecology - study of the interrelationships between organisms and their environments. "In my house the only relationship is that we vacuum and wipe them up every week so the building surfaces are reasonably clean. No big scientific interrelationship as "ecology" tends to indicate. Ecology is the wrong term. Normal is even the wrong term, maybe "expected" given building conditions at the time of sampling (if recent clean, expect lower than average / normal).Bradley HarrSr. Environmental Scientist Re: Normal Fungal Ecology Normal fungal ecology depends on the environment. It is different for:Clean rooms,Hospitals,Total Brick/Masonry/Steel and glass buildingsWood frame structuresBuilding without AC that leave windows openBuilding on tropical islands.Building in warm and humid climates (especially with dewpoints about 60°FCrawlspaces or other spaces that are open to dirt, variable depending upon soil moistureBuildings in desert climatesLevel of air filtration in the environmentand so on.The issue here is one where the IEPs have to estimate what they believe is the normal fungal ecology for thesedifferent buildings and circumstances.There are a number of studies in the literature that

claim to look at normal fungal ecology. However, they do not take into account building type, climate, etc.>From a remediation viewpoint, if one picks very low numbers for PRV, you will most likely be belowthe normal fungal ecology for most environments.>From a genera viewpoint, the most common genera should be Clado. This is the most common genera worldwide. It should be the predominant genera in most cases, but this can vary depending on how low the levels are.We use "control areas" that are not affected by water intrusion problems as a potential way of assessing the normal fungal ecology in a particular building. This is not always a perfect measure but it can be useful. However, in many cases the whole building is affected and no control area exists. This is where literature references can be cited.Normal fungal

ecology does exist. Just because no certification body has put numbers to this concept for various environments does not negate its existence.Bob s Wei Tang, Ph.D. Lab

Director QLab5 DriveCherry Hill, NJ 08003www.QLabUSA.com

[Guest guest]

, Exactly, so the conditions on the building material should be "normal fungal ecosystem". Ecology is the "study" not the system. However, an "ecosystem" on a dry wall that has been wet for 2 months should be full of microbial growth, right? If it's not, then it would be indeed abnormal. There are some confusing on the meaning of "normal" paired up with "ecology (ecosystem)". Wei TangQLab Geyer wrote: :Respectfully disagree. My understanding/definition of ECOLOGY is: The study of how organisms interact with each other and their physical environment.Yes.....what many folks are trying to accomplish is more akin to determining the distribution of fungal spores, but for us that are a bit more broad minded, and looking beyond the spore count, fungal ecology makes sense. This said, I don’t use the term, but I am trying to understand the ecology when I am assessing biologicals (e.g., molds, bacteria, algaes, insects, etc.)On 8/23/07 4:38 AM, " Shane" <jshaneprolabinc> wrote: What is this talk about Ecology? I submit that there is NOT a person on this list capable of speaking about fungal ecology. What I am hearing is NOT fungal ecology, but rather the distribution of fungi, however poorly defined, identified on building surfaces. This is NOT ecology, but a product of the fungal ecology surrounding the building. No fungus ever evolved to live in a building. It is fortuitous that fungi are present in and on buildings.One of the reasons that looking at fungi in buildings is NOT fungal ecology is simply because many that we identify are NOT living. That is a lot of NOT's :-)This may be a fine point, but I bring it up to corral this group, so we understand our limitations and NOT take on air of erudition we do NOT have and cannot possibly attain.Fungi in buildings, is I admit, a sometimes nebulous, moving target, and hard to pigeon hole. But let us use terms correctly and understand them

fully before we voice opinions about them.I often feel, when I hear this kind of talk, e.g., fungal ecology, that it is like a person who watches a lot of nature on TV. They seem to be very knowledgeable about the subject, but are quite lacking when asked about relationships, distributions, etc. That is, the detail a person would have who really knows what the subject is and has studied it. The detail necessary to make intelligent comments and back them up with data.I apologize if these comments seems harsh. They are meant to be dispassionate observations. When we increase our education and elevate our understanding, we can command a higher standard of all of those around us, including the organizations that govern the industry. ••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• D. Shane, Ph.D. Normal fungal ecology depends on the environment. It is different for:Clean rooms,Hospitals,Total Brick/Masonry/Steel and glass buildingsWood frame structuresBuilding without AC that leave windows openBuilding on tropical islands.Building in warm and humid climates (especially with dewpoints about 60°FCrawlspaces or other spaces that are open to dirt, variable depending upon soil moistureBuildings in desert climatesLevel of air filtration in the environmentand so on.The issue here is one where the IEPs have to estimate what they believe is the normal fungal ecology for thesedifferent buildings and circumstances.There are a number of studies in the literature that claim to look at normal fungal ecology. However, they do not take into account building type, climate, etc.>From a remediation viewpoint, if one picks very low numbers for PRV, you will most likely be belowthe normal fungal ecology for most environments.>From a genera viewpoint, the most common genera should be Clado. This is the most common genera worldwide. It should be the predominant genera in most cases, but this can vary depending on how low the levels are.We use "control areas" that are not affected by water intrusion

problems as a potential way of assessing the normal fungal ecology in a particular building. This is not always a perfect measure but it can be useful. However, in many cases the whole building is affected and no control area exists. This is where literature references can be cited.Normal fungal ecology does exist. Just because no certification body has put numbers to this concept for various environments does not negate its existence.Bob s Wei Tang, Ph.D. Lab

Director QLab5 DriveCherry Hill, NJ 08003www.QLabUSA.com

[Guest guest]

, Exactly, so the conditions on the building material should be "normal fungal ecosystem". Ecology is the "study" not the system. However, an "ecosystem" on a dry wall that has been wet for 2 months should be full of microbial growth, right? If it's not, then it would be indeed abnormal. There are some confusing on the meaning of "normal" paired up with "ecology (ecosystem)". Wei TangQLab Geyer wrote: :Respectfully disagree. My understanding/definition of ECOLOGY is: The study of how organisms interact with each other and their physical environment.Yes.....what many folks are trying to accomplish is more akin to determining the distribution of fungal spores, but for us that are a bit more broad minded, and looking beyond the spore count, fungal ecology makes sense. This said, I don’t use the term, but I am trying to understand the ecology when I am assessing biologicals (e.g., molds, bacteria, algaes, insects, etc.)On 8/23/07 4:38 AM, " Shane" <jshaneprolabinc> wrote: What is this talk about Ecology? I submit that there is NOT a person on this list capable of speaking about fungal ecology. What I am hearing is NOT fungal ecology, but rather the distribution of fungi, however poorly defined, identified on building surfaces. This is NOT ecology, but a product of the fungal ecology surrounding the building. No fungus ever evolved to live in a building. It is fortuitous that fungi are present in and on buildings.One of the reasons that looking at fungi in buildings is NOT fungal ecology is simply because many that we identify are NOT living. That is a lot of NOT's :-)This may be a fine point, but I bring it up to corral this group, so we understand our limitations and NOT take on air of erudition we do NOT have and cannot possibly attain.Fungi in buildings, is I admit, a sometimes nebulous, moving target, and hard to pigeon hole. But let us use terms correctly and understand them

fully before we voice opinions about them.I often feel, when I hear this kind of talk, e.g., fungal ecology, that it is like a person who watches a lot of nature on TV. They seem to be very knowledgeable about the subject, but are quite lacking when asked about relationships, distributions, etc. That is, the detail a person would have who really knows what the subject is and has studied it. The detail necessary to make intelligent comments and back them up with data.I apologize if these comments seems harsh. They are meant to be dispassionate observations. When we increase our education and elevate our understanding, we can command a higher standard of all of those around us, including the organizations that govern the industry. ••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• D. Shane, Ph.D. Normal fungal ecology depends on the environment. It is different for:Clean rooms,Hospitals,Total Brick/Masonry/Steel and glass buildingsWood frame structuresBuilding without AC that leave windows openBuilding on tropical islands.Building in warm and humid climates (especially with dewpoints about 60°FCrawlspaces or other spaces that are open to dirt, variable depending upon soil moistureBuildings in desert climatesLevel of air filtration in the environmentand so on.The issue here is one where the IEPs have to estimate what they believe is the normal fungal ecology for thesedifferent buildings and circumstances.There are a number of studies in the literature that claim to look at normal fungal ecology. However, they do not take into account building type, climate, etc.>From a remediation viewpoint, if one picks very low numbers for PRV, you will most likely be belowthe normal fungal ecology for most environments.>From a genera viewpoint, the most common genera should be Clado. This is the most common genera worldwide. It should be the predominant genera in most cases, but this can vary depending on how low the levels are.We use "control areas" that are not affected by water intrusion

problems as a potential way of assessing the normal fungal ecology in a particular building. This is not always a perfect measure but it can be useful. However, in many cases the whole building is affected and no control area exists. This is where literature references can be cited.Normal fungal ecology does exist. Just because no certification body has put numbers to this concept for various environments does not negate its existence.Bob s Wei Tang, Ph.D. Lab

Director QLab5 DriveCherry Hill, NJ 08003www.QLabUSA.com

[Guest guest]

, Exactly, so the conditions on the building material should be "normal fungal ecosystem". Ecology is the "study" not the system. However, an "ecosystem" on a dry wall that has been wet for 2 months should be full of microbial growth, right? If it's not, then it would be indeed abnormal. There are some confusing on the meaning of "normal" paired up with "ecology (ecosystem)". Wei TangQLab Geyer wrote: :Respectfully disagree. My understanding/definition of ECOLOGY is: The study of how organisms interact with each other and their physical environment.Yes.....what many folks are trying to accomplish is more akin to determining the distribution of fungal spores, but for us that are a bit more broad minded, and looking beyond the spore count, fungal ecology makes sense. This said, I don’t use the term, but I am trying to understand the ecology when I am assessing biologicals (e.g., molds, bacteria, algaes, insects, etc.)On 8/23/07 4:38 AM, " Shane" <jshaneprolabinc> wrote: What is this talk about Ecology? I submit that there is NOT a person on this list capable of speaking about fungal ecology. What I am hearing is NOT fungal ecology, but rather the distribution of fungi, however poorly defined, identified on building surfaces. This is NOT ecology, but a product of the fungal ecology surrounding the building. No fungus ever evolved to live in a building. It is fortuitous that fungi are present in and on buildings.One of the reasons that looking at fungi in buildings is NOT fungal ecology is simply because many that we identify are NOT living. That is a lot of NOT's :-)This may be a fine point, but I bring it up to corral this group, so we understand our limitations and NOT take on air of erudition we do NOT have and cannot possibly attain.Fungi in buildings, is I admit, a sometimes nebulous, moving target, and hard to pigeon hole. But let us use terms correctly and understand them

fully before we voice opinions about them.I often feel, when I hear this kind of talk, e.g., fungal ecology, that it is like a person who watches a lot of nature on TV. They seem to be very knowledgeable about the subject, but are quite lacking when asked about relationships, distributions, etc. That is, the detail a person would have who really knows what the subject is and has studied it. The detail necessary to make intelligent comments and back them up with data.I apologize if these comments seems harsh. They are meant to be dispassionate observations. When we increase our education and elevate our understanding, we can command a higher standard of all of those around us, including the organizations that govern the industry. ••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• D. Shane, Ph.D. Normal fungal ecology depends on the environment. It is different for:Clean rooms,Hospitals,Total Brick/Masonry/Steel and glass buildingsWood frame structuresBuilding without AC that leave windows openBuilding on tropical islands.Building in warm and humid climates (especially with dewpoints about 60°FCrawlspaces or other spaces that are open to dirt, variable depending upon soil moistureBuildings in desert climatesLevel of air filtration in the environmentand so on.The issue here is one where the IEPs have to estimate what they believe is the normal fungal ecology for thesedifferent buildings and circumstances.There are a number of studies in the literature that claim to look at normal fungal ecology. However, they do not take into account building type, climate, etc.>From a remediation viewpoint, if one picks very low numbers for PRV, you will most likely be belowthe normal fungal ecology for most environments.>From a genera viewpoint, the most common genera should be Clado. This is the most common genera worldwide. It should be the predominant genera in most cases, but this can vary depending on how low the levels are.We use "control areas" that are not affected by water intrusion

problems as a potential way of assessing the normal fungal ecology in a particular building. This is not always a perfect measure but it can be useful. However, in many cases the whole building is affected and no control area exists. This is where literature references can be cited.Normal fungal ecology does exist. Just because no certification body has put numbers to this concept for various environments does not negate its existence.Bob s Wei Tang, Ph.D. Lab

Director QLab5 DriveCherry Hill, NJ 08003www.QLabUSA.com

[Guest guest]

Fungal ecology, bacteria ecology, insect ecology, etc. Each building

has its own ecosystem that develops after the building is completed and

occupied.

Bug ecology is dependent upon native species e.g. termites, or endemic

species like roaches in NYC. (they now have a bed bug empidemic) The

building are part of the bug's environment and part of its ecosystem.

Therefore, we have bug ecology. The normal bug ecology in a living

space is very much related to its cleanliness and amount of food

particles that remain unclean. Defining normal bug ecology-now that's

a tough one!

The same parallel applies to normal bacteria ecology. Every environment

has a certain background level of bacteria. Leave out a sterile plate

and bacteria will find it. The seem to move through diffusion as well

as other means. Is there a normal bacteria ecology? Probably, but

it will be dependent on the occupants and the normal background in the

local environment. But clearly, a building will have a bacteria

ecology- that is regulated by moisture, food, and cleaning chemicals.

This is particularly true in hospitals, where disinfectant use

radically changes the normal bacterial ecology.

As for normal fungal ecology, it is probably the simplest and mold

uniform of any of these three. (at least in controlled environments.

e.i, heat, cooling and humidity control. The food for mold is

always there - paper cellulose-. The Canadian study- that tracked

fungal levels from a Virgin new building- with new occupants- to fungal

equalibrium - after 24 months- ei. Normal Fungal Ecology.

Bob

[Guest guest]

Fungal ecology, bacteria ecology, insect ecology, etc. Each building

has its own ecosystem that develops after the building is completed and

occupied.

Bug ecology is dependent upon native species e.g. termites, or endemic

species like roaches in NYC. (they now have a bed bug empidemic) The

building are part of the bug's environment and part of its ecosystem.

Therefore, we have bug ecology. The normal bug ecology in a living

space is very much related to its cleanliness and amount of food

particles that remain unclean. Defining normal bug ecology-now that's

a tough one!

The same parallel applies to normal bacteria ecology. Every environment

has a certain background level of bacteria. Leave out a sterile plate

and bacteria will find it. The seem to move through diffusion as well

as other means. Is there a normal bacteria ecology? Probably, but

it will be dependent on the occupants and the normal background in the

local environment. But clearly, a building will have a bacteria

ecology- that is regulated by moisture, food, and cleaning chemicals.

This is particularly true in hospitals, where disinfectant use

radically changes the normal bacterial ecology.

As for normal fungal ecology, it is probably the simplest and mold

uniform of any of these three. (at least in controlled environments.

e.i, heat, cooling and humidity control. The food for mold is

always there - paper cellulose-. The Canadian study- that tracked

fungal levels from a Virgin new building- with new occupants- to fungal

equalibrium - after 24 months- ei. Normal Fungal Ecology.

Bob

[Guest guest]

Steve,

So simple and so well stated!

Chuck Reaney

Brad,

I like the way you think -- expected fungal content of settled dust

based on site-specific conditions. That's what we really mean when

we

talk about Condition 1. It isn't " normal " and it isn't " ecology " .

Here's how I determine Condition 1:

Rule out Condition 3 and Condition 2.

Viola!

Steve Temes

In a message dated 8/23/2007 11:00:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

bdharr@... writes:

> Why not use " fungal content of settled dust " in a well maintained

> building of the type and use being studied at that location and

> time? Normal fungal ecology makes it sound like there is mold

> growth in the building and we just want to see how much is normal.

> Not the same as " ball parking " the expected amount of fungal

> components in the dust of a well maintained building. " Ecology -

> study of the interrelationships between organisms and their

> environments. "

>

> In my house the only relationship is that we vacuum and wipe them

> up every

> week so the building surfaces are reasonably clean. No big

> scientific interrelationship as " ecology " tends to indicate.

> Ecology is the wrong term. Normal is even the wrong term, maybe

> " expected " given building conditions at the time of sampling (if

> recent clean, expect lower than average / normal).

>

> Bradley Harr

> Sr. Environmental Scientist

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Steve,

So simple and so well stated!

Chuck Reaney

Brad,

I like the way you think -- expected fungal content of settled dust

based on site-specific conditions. That's what we really mean when

we

talk about Condition 1. It isn't " normal " and it isn't " ecology " .

Here's how I determine Condition 1:

Rule out Condition 3 and Condition 2.

Viola!

Steve Temes

In a message dated 8/23/2007 11:00:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

bdharr@... writes:

> Why not use " fungal content of settled dust " in a well maintained

> building of the type and use being studied at that location and

> time? Normal fungal ecology makes it sound like there is mold

> growth in the building and we just want to see how much is normal.

> Not the same as " ball parking " the expected amount of fungal

> components in the dust of a well maintained building. " Ecology -

> study of the interrelationships between organisms and their

> environments. "

>

> In my house the only relationship is that we vacuum and wipe them

> up every

> week so the building surfaces are reasonably clean. No big

> scientific interrelationship as " ecology " tends to indicate.

> Ecology is the wrong term. Normal is even the wrong term, maybe

> " expected " given building conditions at the time of sampling (if

> recent clean, expect lower than average / normal).

>

> Bradley Harr

> Sr. Environmental Scientist

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Steve,

So simple and so well stated!

Chuck Reaney

Brad,

I like the way you think -- expected fungal content of settled dust

based on site-specific conditions. That's what we really mean when

we

talk about Condition 1. It isn't " normal " and it isn't " ecology " .

Here's how I determine Condition 1:

Rule out Condition 3 and Condition 2.

Viola!

Steve Temes

In a message dated 8/23/2007 11:00:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

bdharr@... writes:

> Why not use " fungal content of settled dust " in a well maintained

> building of the type and use being studied at that location and

> time? Normal fungal ecology makes it sound like there is mold

> growth in the building and we just want to see how much is normal.

> Not the same as " ball parking " the expected amount of fungal

> components in the dust of a well maintained building. " Ecology -

> study of the interrelationships between organisms and their

> environments. "

>

> In my house the only relationship is that we vacuum and wipe them

> up every

> week so the building surfaces are reasonably clean. No big

> scientific interrelationship as " ecology " tends to indicate.

> Ecology is the wrong term. Normal is even the wrong term, maybe

> " expected " given building conditions at the time of sampling (if

> recent clean, expect lower than average / normal).

>

> Bradley Harr

> Sr. Environmental Scientist

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

,Thank you for making my point.  You can't have the study of ecology without living organisms. LOTS of the biology that is measured is dead and/or we don't care if they are.AND, show my anyone who can assess the mold, bacteria, algae and insects correctly (your list is way short, btw). We at best do aerobiology, NOT fungal ecology.Thinking you are broad-minded does not make reality. Again, you are NOT doing ecology when you try and measure some of the things, both dead and alive, in a house or building. ••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• D. Shane, Ph.D.:Respectfully disagree.  My understanding/definition of ECOLOGY is: The study of how organisms interact with each other and their physical environment.Yes.....what many folks are trying to accomplish is more akin to determining the distribution of fungal spores, but for us that are a bit more broad minded, and looking beyond the spore count, fungal ecology makes sense.  This said, I don’t use the term, but I am trying to understand the ecology when I am assessing biologicals (e.g., molds, bacteria, algaes, insects, etc.)On 8/23/07 4:38 AM, " Shane" <jshaneprolabinc> wrote:  What is this talk about Ecology? I submit that there is NOT a person on this list capable of speaking about fungal ecology. What I am hearing is NOT fungal ecology, but rather the distribution of fungi, however poorly defined, identified on building surfaces. This is NOT ecology, but a product of the fungal ecology surrounding the building. No fungus ever evolved to live in a building. It is fortuitous that fungi are present in and on buildings.One of the reasons that looking at fungi in buildings is NOT fungal ecology is simply because many that we identify are NOT living. That is a lot of NOT's :-)This may be a fine point, but I bring it up to corral this group, so we understand our limitations and NOT take on air of erudition we do NOT have and cannot possibly attain.Fungi in buildings, is I admit, a sometimes nebulous, moving target, and hard to pigeon hole. But let us use terms correctly and understand them fully before we voice opinions about them.I often feel, when I hear this kind of talk, e.g., fungal ecology, that it is like a person who watches a lot of nature on TV. They seem to be very knowledgeable about the subject, but are quite lacking when asked about relationships, distributions, etc. That is, the detail a person would have who really knows what the subject is and has studied it. The detail necessary to make intelligent comments and back them up with data.I apologize if these comments seems harsh. They are meant to be dispassionate observations. When we increase our education and elevate our understanding, we can command a higher standard of all of those around us, including the organizations that govern the industry. ••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• D. Shane, Ph.D.Normal fungal ecology depends on the environment. It is different for:Clean rooms,Hospitals,Total Brick/Masonry/Steel and glass buildingsWood frame structuresBuilding without AC that leave windows openBuilding on tropical islands.Building in warm and humid climates (especially with dewpoints about 60°FCrawlspaces or other spaces that are open to dirt, variable depending upon soil moistureBuildings in desert climatesLevel of air filtration in the environmentand so on.The issue here is one where the IEPs have to estimate what they believe is the normal fungal ecology for thesedifferent buildings and circumstances.There are a number of studies in the literature that claim to look at normal fungal ecology. However, they do not take into account building type, climate, etc.>From a remediation viewpoint, if one picks very low numbers for PRV, you will most likely be belowthe normal fungal ecology for most environments.>From a genera viewpoint, the most common genera should be Clado. This is the most common genera worldwide. It should be the predominant genera in most cases, but this can vary depending on how low the levels are.We use "control areas" that are not affected by water intrusion problems as a potential way of assessing the normal fungal ecology in a particular building. This is not always a perfect measure but it can be useful. However, in many cases the whole building is affected and no control area exists. This is where literature references can be cited.Normal fungal ecology does exist. Just because no certification bodyhas put numbers to this concept for various environments does not negate its existence.Bob s 

[Guest guest]

,Thank you for making my point.  You can't have the study of ecology without living organisms. LOTS of the biology that is measured is dead and/or we don't care if they are.AND, show my anyone who can assess the mold, bacteria, algae and insects correctly (your list is way short, btw). We at best do aerobiology, NOT fungal ecology.Thinking you are broad-minded does not make reality. Again, you are NOT doing ecology when you try and measure some of the things, both dead and alive, in a house or building. ••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• D. Shane, Ph.D.:Respectfully disagree.  My understanding/definition of ECOLOGY is: The study of how organisms interact with each other and their physical environment.Yes.....what many folks are trying to accomplish is more akin to determining the distribution of fungal spores, but for us that are a bit more broad minded, and looking beyond the spore count, fungal ecology makes sense.  This said, I don’t use the term, but I am trying to understand the ecology when I am assessing biologicals (e.g., molds, bacteria, algaes, insects, etc.)On 8/23/07 4:38 AM, " Shane" <jshaneprolabinc> wrote:  What is this talk about Ecology? I submit that there is NOT a person on this list capable of speaking about fungal ecology. What I am hearing is NOT fungal ecology, but rather the distribution of fungi, however poorly defined, identified on building surfaces. This is NOT ecology, but a product of the fungal ecology surrounding the building. No fungus ever evolved to live in a building. It is fortuitous that fungi are present in and on buildings.One of the reasons that looking at fungi in buildings is NOT fungal ecology is simply because many that we identify are NOT living. That is a lot of NOT's :-)This may be a fine point, but I bring it up to corral this group, so we understand our limitations and NOT take on air of erudition we do NOT have and cannot possibly attain.Fungi in buildings, is I admit, a sometimes nebulous, moving target, and hard to pigeon hole. But let us use terms correctly and understand them fully before we voice opinions about them.I often feel, when I hear this kind of talk, e.g., fungal ecology, that it is like a person who watches a lot of nature on TV. They seem to be very knowledgeable about the subject, but are quite lacking when asked about relationships, distributions, etc. That is, the detail a person would have who really knows what the subject is and has studied it. The detail necessary to make intelligent comments and back them up with data.I apologize if these comments seems harsh. They are meant to be dispassionate observations. When we increase our education and elevate our understanding, we can command a higher standard of all of those around us, including the organizations that govern the industry. ••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• D. Shane, Ph.D.Normal fungal ecology depends on the environment. It is different for:Clean rooms,Hospitals,Total Brick/Masonry/Steel and glass buildingsWood frame structuresBuilding without AC that leave windows openBuilding on tropical islands.Building in warm and humid climates (especially with dewpoints about 60°FCrawlspaces or other spaces that are open to dirt, variable depending upon soil moistureBuildings in desert climatesLevel of air filtration in the environmentand so on.The issue here is one where the IEPs have to estimate what they believe is the normal fungal ecology for thesedifferent buildings and circumstances.There are a number of studies in the literature that claim to look at normal fungal ecology. However, they do not take into account building type, climate, etc.>From a remediation viewpoint, if one picks very low numbers for PRV, you will most likely be belowthe normal fungal ecology for most environments.>From a genera viewpoint, the most common genera should be Clado. This is the most common genera worldwide. It should be the predominant genera in most cases, but this can vary depending on how low the levels are.We use "control areas" that are not affected by water intrusion problems as a potential way of assessing the normal fungal ecology in a particular building. This is not always a perfect measure but it can be useful. However, in many cases the whole building is affected and no control area exists. This is where literature references can be cited.Normal fungal ecology does exist. Just because no certification bodyhas put numbers to this concept for various environments does not negate its existence.Bob s 

[Guest guest]

,Thank you for making my point.  You can't have the study of ecology without living organisms. LOTS of the biology that is measured is dead and/or we don't care if they are.AND, show my anyone who can assess the mold, bacteria, algae and insects correctly (your list is way short, btw). We at best do aerobiology, NOT fungal ecology.Thinking you are broad-minded does not make reality. Again, you are NOT doing ecology when you try and measure some of the things, both dead and alive, in a house or building. ••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• D. Shane, Ph.D.:Respectfully disagree.  My understanding/definition of ECOLOGY is: The study of how organisms interact with each other and their physical environment.Yes.....what many folks are trying to accomplish is more akin to determining the distribution of fungal spores, but for us that are a bit more broad minded, and looking beyond the spore count, fungal ecology makes sense.  This said, I don’t use the term, but I am trying to understand the ecology when I am assessing biologicals (e.g., molds, bacteria, algaes, insects, etc.)On 8/23/07 4:38 AM, " Shane" <jshaneprolabinc> wrote:  What is this talk about Ecology? I submit that there is NOT a person on this list capable of speaking about fungal ecology. What I am hearing is NOT fungal ecology, but rather the distribution of fungi, however poorly defined, identified on building surfaces. This is NOT ecology, but a product of the fungal ecology surrounding the building. No fungus ever evolved to live in a building. It is fortuitous that fungi are present in and on buildings.One of the reasons that looking at fungi in buildings is NOT fungal ecology is simply because many that we identify are NOT living. That is a lot of NOT's :-)This may be a fine point, but I bring it up to corral this group, so we understand our limitations and NOT take on air of erudition we do NOT have and cannot possibly attain.Fungi in buildings, is I admit, a sometimes nebulous, moving target, and hard to pigeon hole. But let us use terms correctly and understand them fully before we voice opinions about them.I often feel, when I hear this kind of talk, e.g., fungal ecology, that it is like a person who watches a lot of nature on TV. They seem to be very knowledgeable about the subject, but are quite lacking when asked about relationships, distributions, etc. That is, the detail a person would have who really knows what the subject is and has studied it. The detail necessary to make intelligent comments and back them up with data.I apologize if these comments seems harsh. They are meant to be dispassionate observations. When we increase our education and elevate our understanding, we can command a higher standard of all of those around us, including the organizations that govern the industry. ••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• D. Shane, Ph.D.Normal fungal ecology depends on the environment. It is different for:Clean rooms,Hospitals,Total Brick/Masonry/Steel and glass buildingsWood frame structuresBuilding without AC that leave windows openBuilding on tropical islands.Building in warm and humid climates (especially with dewpoints about 60°FCrawlspaces or other spaces that are open to dirt, variable depending upon soil moistureBuildings in desert climatesLevel of air filtration in the environmentand so on.The issue here is one where the IEPs have to estimate what they believe is the normal fungal ecology for thesedifferent buildings and circumstances.There are a number of studies in the literature that claim to look at normal fungal ecology. However, they do not take into account building type, climate, etc.>From a remediation viewpoint, if one picks very low numbers for PRV, you will most likely be belowthe normal fungal ecology for most environments.>From a genera viewpoint, the most common genera should be Clado. This is the most common genera worldwide. It should be the predominant genera in most cases, but this can vary depending on how low the levels are.We use "control areas" that are not affected by water intrusion problems as a potential way of assessing the normal fungal ecology in a particular building. This is not always a perfect measure but it can be useful. However, in many cases the whole building is affected and no control area exists. This is where literature references can be cited.Normal fungal ecology does exist. Just because no certification bodyhas put numbers to this concept for various environments does not negate its existence.Bob s 

[Guest guest]

Bob s wrote: "The Canadian study- that tracked fungal levels from a Virgin new building- with new occupants- to fungal equalibrium - after 24 months- ei. Normal Fungal Ecology."

The way I see it, mold growth occurs on wet organic surfaces. The mold spores that happen to be present in and on the wet surfaces will proliferate and compete (fungal ecology). When mold growth occurs, it isn't Condition 1 any more, which is defined in S520 as normal fungal ecology -- so it isn't "normal" for an indoor environment to have mold growth or fungal ecology.

If we are talking about expected fungal content of settled dust to indicate Condition 1 (= normal) we are now looking at a sort of "fungal equilibrium" that describes what is in settled dust from outdoor sources (or from moldy lemons dropped into waste baskets).

I don't see a need to study normal growth of mold in buildings. There shouldn't be fungal growth occurring in buildings -- period.

So you can't have fungal ecology without mold growth and you can't have mold growth without something being a problem. If it's a problem, it can't be "normal". And normal fungal ecology (Condition 1) implies NO INDOOR GROWTH by S520 definition, or else it would be Condition 3 or Condition 2. So, I agree with Brad that you really can't have normal fungal ecology in an indoor environment.

Steve Temes

Fungal ecology, bacteria ecology, insect ecology, etc. Each building

has its own ecosystem that develops after the building is completed and

occupied.

Bug ecology is dependent upon native species e.g. termites, or endemic

species like roaches in NYC. (they now have a bed bug empidemic) The

building are part of the bug's environment and part of its ecosystem.

Therefore, we have bug ecology. The normal bug ecology in a living

space is very much related to its cleanliness and amount of food

particles that remain unclean. Defining normal bug ecology-now that's

a tough one!

The same parallel applies to normal bacteria ecology. Every environment

has a certain background level of bacteria. Leave out a sterile plate

and bacteria will find it. The seem to move through diffusion as well

as other means. Is there a normal bacteria ecology? Probably, but

it will be dependent on the occupants and the normal background in the

local environment. But clearly, a building will have a bacteria

ecology- that is regulated by moisture, food, and cleaning chemicals.

This is particularly true in hospitals, where disinfectant use

radically changes the normal bacterial ecology.

As for normal fungal ecology, it is probably the simplest and mold

uniform of any of these three. (at least in controlled environments.

e.i, heat, cooling and humidity control. The food for mold is

always there - paper cellulose-. The Canadian study- that tracked

fungal levels from a Virgin new building- with new occupants- to fungal

equalibrium - after 24 months- ei. Normal Fungal Ecology.

Bob

[Guest guest]

Bob,I agree that the building is part of the ecology of the environment, albeit not natural. The organisms don't care much about the buildings so much as the availability of things they like to eat, etc.However, I am aghast that you would think mold is the simplest of all the other organisms you listed. This makes my point so well - you are not qualified to make decisions about fungal ecology. Taxonomically, we know about the same as we do viruses. That means we are, in the conservative case, 92% ignorant of the species that are possibly in a building. Most people measure the fungi with VERY limited test media and therefore, get back a short list, biased by what is selectively tested for and the short time given for an answer. The better the tests are, e.g., a wider selection of media, the more fungi will show up, especially given more time to grow the fungi. In fact, the list will bewilder you because more tests will provide species you have never heard of before. What then?In short, let's not talk about fungal ecology and things we know nothing about. Perhaps we should be using an agreed upon term, defined  by consensus. This way, everyone will have a common language. This is useful in order to move forward to solve problems and provide solutions that will be accepted. ••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• D. Shane, Ph.D.Fungal ecology, bacteria ecology, insect ecology, etc. Each building has its own ecosystem that develops after the building is completed and occupied.Bug ecology is dependent upon native species e.g. termites, or endemic species like roaches in NYC. (they now have a bed bug empidemic) The building are part of the bug's environment and part of its ecosystem. Therefore, we have bug ecology. The normal bug ecology in a living space is very much related to its cleanliness and amount of food particles that remain unclean. Defining normal bug ecology-now that's a tough one!The same parallel applies to normal bacteria ecology. Every environment has a certain background level of bacteria. Leave out a sterile plate and bacteria will find it. The seem to move through diffusion as well as other means. Is there a normal bacteria ecology? Probably, but it will be dependent on the occupants and the normal background in the local environment. But clearly, a building will have a bacteria ecology- that is regulated by moisture, food, and cleaning chemicals. This is particularly true in hospitals, where disinfectant use radically changes the normal bacterial ecology.As for normal fungal ecology, it is probably the simplest and mold uniform of any of these three. (at least in controlled environments. e.i, heat, cooling and humidity control. The food for mold is always there - paper cellulose-. The Canadian study- that tracked fungal levels from a Virgin new building- with new occupants- to fungal equalibrium - after 24 months- ei. Normal Fungal Ecology.Bob

[Guest guest]

Bob,I agree that the building is part of the ecology of the environment, albeit not natural. The organisms don't care much about the buildings so much as the availability of things they like to eat, etc.However, I am aghast that you would think mold is the simplest of all the other organisms you listed. This makes my point so well - you are not qualified to make decisions about fungal ecology. Taxonomically, we know about the same as we do viruses. That means we are, in the conservative case, 92% ignorant of the species that are possibly in a building. Most people measure the fungi with VERY limited test media and therefore, get back a short list, biased by what is selectively tested for and the short time given for an answer. The better the tests are, e.g., a wider selection of media, the more fungi will show up, especially given more time to grow the fungi. In fact, the list will bewilder you because more tests will provide species you have never heard of before. What then?In short, let's not talk about fungal ecology and things we know nothing about. Perhaps we should be using an agreed upon term, defined  by consensus. This way, everyone will have a common language. This is useful in order to move forward to solve problems and provide solutions that will be accepted. ••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• D. Shane, Ph.D.Fungal ecology, bacteria ecology, insect ecology, etc. Each building has its own ecosystem that develops after the building is completed and occupied.Bug ecology is dependent upon native species e.g. termites, or endemic species like roaches in NYC. (they now have a bed bug empidemic) The building are part of the bug's environment and part of its ecosystem. Therefore, we have bug ecology. The normal bug ecology in a living space is very much related to its cleanliness and amount of food particles that remain unclean. Defining normal bug ecology-now that's a tough one!The same parallel applies to normal bacteria ecology. Every environment has a certain background level of bacteria. Leave out a sterile plate and bacteria will find it. The seem to move through diffusion as well as other means. Is there a normal bacteria ecology? Probably, but it will be dependent on the occupants and the normal background in the local environment. But clearly, a building will have a bacteria ecology- that is regulated by moisture, food, and cleaning chemicals. This is particularly true in hospitals, where disinfectant use radically changes the normal bacterial ecology.As for normal fungal ecology, it is probably the simplest and mold uniform of any of these three. (at least in controlled environments. e.i, heat, cooling and humidity control. The food for mold is always there - paper cellulose-. The Canadian study- that tracked fungal levels from a Virgin new building- with new occupants- to fungal equalibrium - after 24 months- ei. Normal Fungal Ecology.Bob

[Guest guest]

,

Here is my reasoning for my opinion that mold is the simplest ecosystem

in buildings.

1. The most common mold species worldwide is Clado. You can find a

level of clado in all buildings.

What is the most common insect? Ants? Roaches? Dust mites? We have

very little information on the spectrum of bugs in homes. The species

of bugs vary much more in housing, depending on the local ecosystem.

What is the most common bug in homes? Does the bug represent the

majority of bugs in a home? What about building infestations. They

spread much further than mold spores. Bugs simply are not evenly

distributed world wide. Clado, alternaria and pen are.

This is not to say, that total number of species of bugs exceeds that

of the total number of species of mold.

But, I am not talking about species that have low probabilities. Sure

you can find one spore of this or that. But that is not significant,

in my opinion.

What is of interest is what can one expect to find " normally " in any

home that is climate controlled. Since mold spores are spread worldwide

by the atmosphere, there is a more common genera distribution.

As for bacteria, SA is very common, but MRSA is also speading. The

current LA prison outbreak is a very good example. What bacteria is

the most predominant? We can't easily speciate bacteria without

extensive costs and time - and the results are highly variable. And

exactly what do they mean?

This gets back to mold, my experience and the almost 1,000 papers I

have read on this subject - from the last 150 years, shows typical mold

genera to be much less variable than bugs or bacteria.

Bob