RE: Re: Am looking for a research doc re: building science./Formaldehyde

[Guest guest]

Henry:

Your comments to Barbara are very good and well intentioned - especially the

part regarding carpeting, and it trapping then releasing contaminants.

However, (Sharon is gonna love this one!) I take exception to your use of

" was-woods " . You, Mr. Lstiburek, and others that use this term denigrating

engineered wood materials deserve to be sent back to the stone age! Do you

also refer to cement as " was-limestone " ? Do you refer to plastic products

as " was-oil " or " was-natural gas " ? Do you refer to the metal body of your

car as " was-hematite, " or the aluminum can that holds your beer as

" was-bauxite " ? Come-on, let's be reasonable! Engineered products have made

our lives much more comfortable and modernized, and have allowed us to live

many years longer than our ancestors. Let's not loose sight of this.

Moreover, to blame and denigrate the inanimate material is to be VERY

short-sighted. The same argument is being use to ban firearms by saying

that " guns kill people " BS! People kill people. If the object was at

fault in the damage done, then we should ban all cigarettes and alcoholic

beverages, because these objects kill many, many, many more people than

firearms ever will; including the innocent that didn't consume the

alcohol/cigarette! We need to stop denigrating the object, and instead look

at the decisions, by people, that went into the design/installation of the

object. Can you imagine our world without plywood, OSB, particle board, and

sheetrock (which the mold-advocates have denigrated with " mold-food " )? I

can. It means we would all be living in stick-framed, clapboard-sided

homes. There would be few forests left in the world today and millions of

folks would be without homes. Engineered wood products have SIGNIFICANTLY

reduced the demand on dimensional timber and have slowed deforestation.

There are wide-ranging benefits to engineered wood products. Don't be so

myopic.

For what it is worth...

--

Geyer, PE, CIH, CSP

President

KERNTEC Industries, Inc.

Bakersfield, California

www.kerntecindustries.com

> Barbara -

>

> I don't recall seeing any previous e-mails from you, but I wanted to

> respond to yours now because some of the things you said surprised me.

>

> You state that the only sources of formaldehyde for your bedroom are the

> walls and carpet, when in fact formaldehyde anywhere in your residence

> might spread to your bedroom. For this reason, most people seek to

> measure the highest levels that they can, not the lowest, when they make

> measurements. Some try to compare two locations (kitchen and bedroom,

> perhaps) to see if there is a difference which suggests a source in one

> room or the other.

>

> Typical formaldehyde sources include particle board, chip board,

> fiberboard, and other materials that Joe Lstiburek calls the " was-woods "

> (because they was wood at one time but they ain't no more). Cabinets,

> bookcases, computer desks, even foosball tables, are often made of

> particle board and might possibly give off formaldehyde. Formaldehyde

> is also used in making permanent-pressed clothing, and some sensitive

> people have trouble in clothing stores.

>

> By contrast, carpet manufacturers will tell you that they have not used

> any formaldehyde in making carpets for years, so that is not a likely

> source. However, carpet can trap molecules that it may release later,

> and thus be a secondary source.

>

> You sound certain that formaldehyde has caused your symptoms, although

> you don't state if you looked for any other sources (water damage and

> molds, other chemicals, combustion gases, etc.) In my experience,

> levels around 0.05 ppm are pretty low, although sensitive people may

> still react. I just worry that you might also be reacting to the

> presence of something else which you have not measured.

>

> Please tell us a little more of why you only name formaldehyde as the

> culprit. Thank you.

>

> Sincerely,

>

>

> Henry Slack

>

> Henry Slack, P.E.

> U.S. EPA Region 4

> Indoor Air Program

>

>

> For more assistance, try EPA's Web site, www.epa.gov/iaq

> or call EPA's Indoor Air Quality Information Clearinghouse

> . Experts are available 9-5 M-F

>

>

>

> Posted by: " agasaya " agasaya@... agasaya

> Sun Oct 22, 2006 11:42 am (PST)

> ---------------

>

> If there is little air movement through walls, what permits the

> leakage of formaldehyde into rooms from insulation or sheetrock?

> The bedroom in my apartment measured .056 and .057 ppm (two sample

> measured via SKC collection tubes and Clayton Laboratories

> measurement of a 7 day collection period). This confirmed the

> source of significant symptoms for me (already disabled with asthma

> and related inflammatory issues), requiring my removal from the

> premises.

>

> It was presumed levels would be higher in the other rooms

> due to the presence of more outside walls (heavier insulation) and

> kitchen cabinetry made of plywood. I chose to test the area which

> would have the lowest concentrations present. The bedroom had no

> other sources for formaldehyde other than the walls (one outside

> wall) and a carpet (entire structure two years old). I tested it in

> an unfurnished state. Walls contain six inches of insulation, four

> of fiberglass and two outer inches of styrene).

>

> Barbara

>

>

>

>

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[Guest guest]

Barbara –

Not sure where you live, but have you monitored your

relative humidity levels? Sinus irritation can occur if RH is too low,

something I often times see in Arizona…

Just a thought.

-Stacey Champion

From:

iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of agasaya

Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006

6:29 AM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: Am

looking for a research doc re: building science./Formaldehyde

On 10/23/06 6:01 AM, " slack.henry@... "

wrote:

>

> > Barbara -

> > I don't recall seeing any previous e-mails from you, but I

wanted to respond to yours now because some of the things you said

surprised me. You state that the only sources of formaldehyde for

your bedroom are the walls and carpet, when in fact formaldehyde

anywhere in your residence might spread to your bedroom. For this

reason, most people seek to measure the highest levels that they

can, not the lowest, when they make measurements. Some try to

compare two locations (kitchen and bedroom, perhaps) to see if there

is a difference which suggests a source in one room or the other.

Typical formaldehyde sources include particle board, chip board,

fiberboard, and other materials that Joe Lstiburek calls the " was-

woods " (because they was wood at one time but they ain't no more).

Cabinets,bookcases, computer desks, even foosball tables, are often

made of particle board and might possibly give off formaldehyde.

Formaldehyde is also used in making permanent-pressed clothing, and

some sensitive people have trouble in clothing stores. By contrast,

carpet manufacturers will tell you that they have not used

any formaldehyde in making carpets for years, so that is not a likely

source. However, carpet can trap molecules that it may release

later, and thus be a secondary source.

> >

You sound certain that formaldehyde has caused your symptoms,

although you don't state if you looked for any other sources (water

damage and molds, other chemicals, combustion gases, etc.) In my

experience, levels around 0.05 ppm are pretty low, although

sensitive people may still react. I just worry that you might also

be reacting to the presence of something else which you have not

measured.

> >

Please tell us a little more of why you only name formaldehyde as

the culprit. Henry Slack

=============================================================

Sorry to repost the entire message - I am not sure if Yahoo would

show bold or italics and I don't know how to do the different

colors )

I am relatively new to the list but have posted on one or two

occasions. I have published a few articles on effects of pesticides

indoors and a few other related health/environment issues. I was

permanently disabled by pesticides which caused brain injury and

chronic illness. I recently moved into this two year old building of

four apartments. It is unfurnished and I brought only a cot. Having

developed asthma and sensitivities to pesticides, mold and a number

of other materials, I did not detect any mold related issues in this

apartment nor are there any fuels or ambient laundry room fumes

entering the unit. Furnaces, fuel sources and laundry equipment are

in another building and I also moved in during the summer when the

radiant heat was off. I had only a cot with me. Yes, I believe

formaldehyde to be entering my unit from other units as well since I

keep windows open and others do not which does lead to an effect of

drawing fumes from other units into mine (I would like to hear

comments about that phenomena). There has been no recent painting or

other renovation.

Basically, the problems began with unusual sinus irritation (not

normal for me), consciousness of a formaldehyde odor when near

kitchen cabinets (plywood) and leading over time to increased

asthmatic involvement despite air purifiers and ventilation. I had

to decrease my use of ventilation as a coping strategy due to some

herbicide use in the area but the effects of the latter are far

different for me. I chose to test the room with the lowest

concentration because I wanted to see if any room would be habitable

for me through the terms of my lease and over the winter where my

residence would be closed up a good deal of the time. I have no

intention of suing anyone etc. so was testing for my own benefit, to

answer my own questions.

I must disagree with you re your opinion that .05 ppm is low for

formaldehyde. On the contrary, WHO regards .05 ppm as the maximum

concentration that ought to be permitted in a residence and that

would be completely unsuitable for an asthmatic. Embalmers are

exposed to a concentration of .3 which has led to documented health

problems and the EPA I believe admits that 1.0 ppm is hazardous

under all circumstances. The levels I have documented are

innapropriate for a residence and frankly, formaldehyde does not

belong in construction materials at all. Europe

finds no need for it

and I thank you for your reference to 'was-wood'. I believe the

current PC term is 'Forest Products'.

Sorry Geyer, but your tongue in cheek analogy to gun control

(I hope it was meant to be amusing but my brain injury keeps me

fairly concrete in interpretations ), doesn't quite do it. A

person has to operate a gun to make it dangerous. On the other

hand, furnishings, insulation, carpet and other items riddled with

contaminants which lead to insidious health effects over time

(sensitization, inflammation, poisoning etc.), just have to sit

there over time, usually unsuspected as sources of danger because we

don't label the components of our products when selling them to

ignorant consumers. Deprived of such information, consumers are

merely anxious to obtain the cheapest products instead of those that

will turn out to be the most expensive of all - the ones that harm.

And if questioned, they believe everything is tested and proven not

to cause harm prior to marketing. Anyone who has studied the process

of development and marketing for pesticides, knows this to be

patently untrue.

Additionally, our bodies produce aldehydes internally as byproducts

of digestion and other homeostasis processes. When these relevant

enzymes and detox mechanisms are depleted and exhausted from

external challenges, we lose our own abilities to digest certain

foods which in turn causes a chain of events which damage. We have

to look at our bodies as waste disposal plants being expected to

handle more than their capacity can hold. Biodiversity is not an

illness so differences within the population as far as tolerances

go, should not automatically condemn a significant portion of the

population to become 'acceptable risks'. It is simple enough to

reduce harm via such well established issues as selection of

adhesives and resins for incorporation into our offices and

residences. Or simply label everything and let consumers decide for

themselves (and educate one another). Capitalism will allow

consumer choices to determine the direction of manufacturing if

consumers are given the right to know. It does not put us back into

the stone age, , but allows us to move into a modern age in

which we develop technology compatible with our bodies as well as

the GNP bottom line. Which, by the way, is tanking as health care is

now 16% of the GNP reflecting goods and services that represent a

loss of productivity in the country, unlike other measures of

economic activity. Nearly one third of our population is now

chronically ill and/or disabled.

Regarding other air quality issues in the apartment, I would not

rule out the presence of other contaminants and do have

intermittent irritants coming from other units in violation of the

lease such as occasional tobacco smoke but these are not continuous

and could be negotiated. The basic level of formaldehyde I found in

the bedroom cannot be negotiated and is innapropriate for me to live

with it, much less the likely higher concentrations present in the

outer rooms. When I tested the room it had been empty of all

furnishings other than my metal cot, for at least two months. And I

also agree that carpet and even sheetrock can absorb contaminants

from other sources and re-release them into the air. This is why we

should not bring unecessary sources of this and other chemicals

incompatible with biochemistry into our homes when other choices

exist.

I don't blame my landlord for the problem but do not feel I should

have to live with the consequences of his choices in materials such

as insulation. Whatever the source, it is innapropriate for me to

be housed there and I expect to be released from any obligations to

remain. I was quite open about my condition when I first met him and

saw the apartment. He even read some of my writings and told me how

this should be a healthy environment. Well, we both tried and it

isn't working out. . .

Unfortunately, few choices in the way of healthy housing exist for

those of us already severely compromised from such things. I am

still looking for safe housing with little success.

Barbara Rubin