Re: Thin Milk

July 27, 2011

Yes, I do need to ask her about her diet, but first I wanted to see if anyone had any ideas about the milk itself. And, if she has had bariatric surgery. The thing is, does increasing fat in your diet increase fat in the milk? According to the research, no. It changes the fatty acid composition, but not the total fat. So I don't want to ask her a lot of questions unless I can help with the milk itself, if you get my drift.

Jan www.grammiesawards.blogspot.com

Jan, Tow would ask first about her diet. What does she eat? What meds is she taking? What does she drink?Any health issues? Does she have digestion problems? Is she on a special diet? Have her keep a food journal. Is she on a low fat diet? fast food? leaky gut?Too many questionsSharidoes she schedule feeds? the closer the feeds the higher the fat content..

Dear group,

I'm working (loosely) with a mom in East Asia (China) -- an American -- who is nursing her 5 month old. Baby is borderline FTT, is now gaining because mom has started him on solid foods. (Rice cereal, of course, but I'm discouraging that big time...going for the avocados, sweet potatoes and bananas...). Baby has green stools -- sometimes of jelly-like consistency (I've not seen a picture of those yet) reminiscent of oversupply, but mom definitely doesn't have oversupply. What she does have, and this really puzzles me -- very very thin milk. She sent me a picture of an ounce that she pumped AFTER 25 minutes of nursing, so theoretically it should be nice, creamy, white. Nope. Looks sorta like dishwater. Very very thin with a tiny (and I mean tiny) layer of fat on the top. I've never seen "hind" milk look like this -- it explains the green poos, I think, and also why the baby is not gaining. Basically it looks sorta like foremilk from a mom with major oversupply... She doesn't have a scale that will give us a good sense of how much he takes at a feed, and I saw one short video that showed a good latch with good nutritive sucking and swallowing -- but it wasn't an entire feed, and just was designed to show me the latch.

Anyway -- any thoughts on what's up with this milk and how to improve the fat content?

Jan Barger

-- ~~~~~~~~~~ Shari Silady ~~~~~~~~~~~~~"Mothers have as powerful an influence over the welfare of future generations as all other earthly causes combined."~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

July 27, 2011

But Shari, thanks for the suggestions. Will print them out to make sure I don't miss anything when I e-mail her next.

Now, if anyone knows of anything for sure that will increase fat in the milk -- please let me know....

I do know she doesn't consume dairy at all....baby sensitive to that.

Jan www.grammiesawards.blogspot.com

Yes, I do need to ask her about her diet, but first I wanted to see if anyone had any ideas about the milk itself. And, if she has had bariatric surgery. The thing is, does increasing fat in your diet increase fat in the milk? According to the research, no. It changes the fatty acid composition, but not the total fat. So I don't want to ask her a lot of questions unless I can help with the milk itself, if you get my drift.

Jan www.grammiesawards.blogspot.com

Jan, Tow would ask first about her diet. What does she eat? What meds is she taking? What does she drink?Any health issues? Does she have digestion problems? Is she on a special diet? Have her keep a food journal. Is she on a low fat diet? fast food? leaky gut?Too many questionsSharidoes she schedule feeds? the closer the feeds the higher the fat content..

Dear group,

I'm working (loosely) with a mom in East Asia (China) -- an American -- who is nursing her 5 month old. Baby is borderline FTT, is now gaining because mom has started him on solid foods. (Rice cereal, of course, but I'm discouraging that big time...going for the avocados, sweet potatoes and bananas...). Baby has green stools -- sometimes of jelly-like consistency (I've not seen a picture of those yet) reminiscent of oversupply, but mom definitely doesn't have oversupply. What she does have, and this really puzzles me -- very very thin milk. She sent me a picture of an ounce that she pumped AFTER 25 minutes of nursing, so theoretically it should be nice, creamy, white. Nope. Looks sorta like dishwater. Very very thin with a tiny (and I mean tiny) layer of fat on the top. I've never seen "hind" milk look like this -- it explains the green poos, I think, and also why the baby is not gaining. Basically it looks sorta like foremilk from a mom with major oversupply... She doesn't have a scale that will give us a good sense of how much he takes at a feed, and I saw one short video that showed a good latch with good nutritive sucking and swallowing -- but it wasn't an entire feed, and just was designed to show me the latch.

Anyway -- any thoughts on what's up with this milk and how to improve the fat content?

Jan Barger

-- ~~~~~~~~~~ Shari Silady ~~~~~~~~~~~~~"Mothers have as powerful an influence over the welfare of future generations as all other earthly causes combined."~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

July 27, 2011

Hmmm -- good idea, though I'll have to see if I can get 's or 's or Donna's e-mail. Tom Hale probably has it. Will check there. Interested to see what has to say!!

And I'm certainly willing to be proven wrong about not being able to increase fat in the milk.

Jan www.grammiesawards.blogspot.com

This is a good question for Hartman.. I don't know about fat content and diet but... my clients have told me if they eat lots of organic protein during the early day cluster feeding is not so bad. We are what we eat.Lets see what has to say. This is very interesting.could you call or email and his team?Shari

Yes, I do need to ask her about her diet, but first I wanted to see if anyone had any ideas about the milk itself. And, if she has had bariatric surgery. The thing is, does increasing fat in your diet increase fat in the milk? According to the research, no. It changes the fatty acid composition, but not the total fat. So I don't want to ask her a lot of questions unless I can help with the milk itself, if you get my drift.

Jan www.grammiesawards.blogspot.com

Jan, Tow would ask first about her diet. What does she eat? What meds is she taking? What does she drink?Any health issues? Does she have digestion problems? Is she on a special diet? Have her keep a food journal. Is she on a low fat diet? fast food? leaky gut?Too many questionsSharidoes she schedule feeds? the closer the feeds the higher the fat content..

Dear group,

I'm working (loosely) with a mom in East Asia (China) -- an American -- who is nursing her 5 month old. Baby is borderline FTT, is now gaining because mom has started him on solid foods. (Rice cereal, of course, but I'm discouraging that big time...going for the avocados, sweet potatoes and bananas...). Baby has green stools -- sometimes of jelly-like consistency (I've not seen a picture of those yet) reminiscent of oversupply, but mom definitely doesn't have oversupply. What she does have, and this really puzzles me -- very very thin milk. She sent me a picture of an ounce that she pumped AFTER 25 minutes of nursing, so theoretically it should be nice, creamy, white. Nope. Looks sorta like dishwater. Very very thin with a tiny (and I mean tiny) layer of fat on the top. I've never seen "hind" milk look like this -- it explains the green poos, I think, and also why the baby is not gaining. Basically it looks sorta like foremilk from a mom with major oversupply... She doesn't have a scale that will give us a good sense of how much he takes at a feed, and I saw one short video that showed a good latch with good nutritive sucking and swallowing -- but it wasn't an entire feed, and just was designed to show me the latch.

Anyway -- any thoughts on what's up with this milk and how to improve the fat content?

Jan Barger

-- ~~~~~~~~~~ Shari Silady ~~~~~~~~~~~~~"Mothers have as powerful an influence over the welfare of future generations as all other earthly causes combined."~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

July 27, 2011

I considered that, and wouldn't have thought as much about it except for the low gain, and the green poos. And she's an experienced mom -- third baby, which doesn't always mean she knows what she is doing. She's had issues before with her other two girls, but has always assumed it was supply issues. She thought she had more with this baby -- and perhaps she does, but perhaps it is something else entirely.

And let's say he only "drank" for the first 5 minutes of the feed -- or even only the first couple of minutes. I would still expect the milk to look a heck of a lot whiter/creamier than it did. And I am aware of the space between feeds and fat content....

I have a slide I show in my courses of different colors of milk. None of the 6 bottles look anything like this one, and you can tell that at least one of them was pumped at the beginning of a feed....

I've been working with bf moms and babies since 1985 just doing lactation, and been working in MCH since 1972. I truly, have never seen milk quite like this.

Jan

I went to peter's talk on fat content at ILCA. Shari's right no when she talks about the space between feedings. Also, there is a huge piece we don't know. we really don't know if baby is drinking milk during the whole feeding. Just b/c she pumped at the end of the "feed", baby may have stopped swallowing 20 minutes earlier so really it was the beginning of the feed. I would want to see what baby is doing at the breast first b/f I jump to any conclusions about her milk being faulty. Unless she's severely malnourished I don't see how it's possible that her milk doesn't have the right proportion of fat.

Beebe, M.Ed., IBCLC Lactation Consultant/Postpartum Doula www.second9months.com

Breastfeeding Between the Lines: http://second9months.wordpress.com/

Dear group,

I'm working (loosely) with a mom in East Asia (China) -- an American -- who is nursing her 5 month old. Baby is borderline FTT, is now gaining because mom has started him on solid foods. (Rice cereal, of course, but I'm discouraging that big time...going for the avocados, sweet potatoes and bananas...). Baby has green stools -- sometimes of jelly-like consistency (I've not seen a picture of those yet) reminiscent of oversupply, but mom definitely doesn't have oversupply. What she does have, and this really puzzles me -- very very thin milk. She sent me a picture of an ounce that she pumped AFTER 25 minutes of nursing, so theoretically it should be nice, creamy, white. Nope. Looks sorta like dishwater. Very very thin with a tiny (and I mean tiny) layer of fat on the top. I've never seen "hind" milk look like this -- it explains the green poos, I think, and also why the baby is not gaining. Basically it looks sorta like foremilk from a mom with major oversupply... She doesn't have a scale that will give us a good sense of how much he takes at a feed, and I saw one short video that showed a good latch with good nutritive sucking and swallowing -- but it wasn't an entire feed, and just was designed to show me the latch.

Anyway -- any thoughts on what's up with this milk and how to improve the fat content?

Jan Barger

-- ~~~~~~~~~~ Shari Silady ~~~~~~~~~~~~~"Mothers have as powerful an influence over the welfare of future generations as all other earthly causes combined."~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

July 27, 2011

Hi Lou,

That I have seen. My colleague's daughterinlaw has a freezer full of milk -- we have a picture of it, and dang, if it doesn't all look like bottles of cream standing there. No fat separation at all, which is what we usually see.

Jan www.grammiesawards.blogspot.com

I had a client ask me about her milk yesterday funny this topic popped up. She said she has seen a few other people's expressed milk and it looks transluscent and has a separated fat line at the top. Also mostly what I have seen. Her expressed milk looks as if it were homoginized and she said it doesn't ever separate it is white not clear at all. Thoughts?

Lou Moramarco IBCLC

Birth Breastfeeding and Before

From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of BeebeSent: Wednesday, July 27, 2011 12:17 PMTo: Subject: Re: "Thin" milk

I went to peter's talk on fat content at ILCA. Shari's right no when she talks about the space between feedings. Also, there is a huge piece we don't know. we really don't know if baby is drinking milk during the whole feeding. Just b/c she pumped at the end of the "feed", baby may have stopped swallowing 20 minutes earlier so really it was the beginning of the feed. I would want to see what baby is doing at the breast first b/f I jump to any conclusions about her milk being faulty. Unless she's severely malnourished I don't see how it's possible that her milk doesn't have the right proportion of fat.

Beebe, M.Ed., IBCLC Lactation Consultant/Postpartum Doula www.second9months.com

Breastfeeding Between the Lines: http://second9months.wordpress.com/

Dear group,

I'm working (loosely) with a mom in East Asia (China) -- an American -- who is nursing her 5 month old. Baby is borderline FTT, is now gaining because mom has started him on solid foods. (Rice cereal, of course, but I'm discouraging that big time...going for the avocados, sweet potatoes and bananas...). Baby has green stools -- sometimes of jelly-like consistency (I've not seen a picture of those yet) reminiscent of oversupply, but mom definitely doesn't have oversupply. What she does have, and this really puzzles me -- very very thin milk. She sent me a picture of an ounce that she pumped AFTER 25 minutes of nursing, so theoretically it should be nice, creamy, white. Nope. Looks sorta like dishwater. Very very thin with a tiny (and I mean tiny) layer of fat on the top. I've never seen "hind" milk look like this -- it explains the green poos, I think, and also why the baby is not gaining. Basically it looks sorta like foremilk from a mom with major oversupply... She doesn't have a scale that will give us a good sense of how much he takes at a feed, and I saw one short video that showed a good latch with good nutritive sucking and swallowing -- but it wasn't an entire feed, and just was designed to show me the latch.

Anyway -- any thoughts on what's up with this milk and how to improve the fat content?

Jan Barger

-- ~~~~~~~~~~ Shari Silady ~~~~~~~~~~~~~"Mothers have as powerful an influence over the welfare of future generations as all other earthly causes combined."~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

July 27, 2011

Jan, Tow would ask first about her diet. What does she eat? What meds is she taking? What does she drink?Any health issues? Does she have digestion problems? Is she on a special diet? Have her keep a food journal. Is she on a low fat diet? fast food? leaky gut?

Too many questionsSharidoes she schedule feeds? the closer the feeds the higher the fat content..

Dear group,

I'm working (loosely) with a mom in East Asia (China) -- an American -- who is nursing her 5 month old. Baby is borderline FTT, is now gaining because mom has started him on solid foods. (Rice cereal, of course, but I'm discouraging that big time...going for the avocados, sweet potatoes and bananas...). Baby has green stools -- sometimes of jelly-like consistency (I've not seen a picture of those yet) reminiscent of oversupply, but mom definitely doesn't have oversupply. What she does have, and this really puzzles me -- very very thin milk. She sent me a picture of an ounce that she pumped AFTER 25 minutes of nursing, so theoretically it should be nice, creamy, white. Nope. Looks sorta like dishwater. Very very thin with a tiny (and I mean tiny) layer of fat on the top. I've never seen " hind " milk look like this -- it explains the green poos, I think, and also why the baby is not gaining. Basically it looks sorta like foremilk from a mom with major oversupply... She doesn't have a scale that will give us a good sense of how much he takes at a feed, and I saw one short video that showed a good latch with good nutritive sucking and swallowing -- but it wasn't an entire feed, and just was designed to show me the latch.

Anyway -- any thoughts on what's up with this milk and how to improve the fat content?

Jan Barger

-- ~~~~~~~~~~ Shari Silady ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ " Mothers have as powerful an influence over the welfare of future generations as all other earthly causes combined. "

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

July 27, 2011

This is a good question for Hartman.. I don't know about fat content and diet but... my clients have told me if they eat lots of organic protein during the early day cluster feeding is not so bad. We are what we eat.

Lets see what has to say. This is very interesting.could you call or email and his team?Shari

Yes, I do need to ask her about her diet, but first I wanted to see if anyone had any ideas about the milk itself. And, if she has had bariatric surgery. The thing is, does increasing fat in your diet increase fat in the milk? According to the research, no. It changes the fatty acid composition, but not the total fat. So I don't want to ask her a lot of questions unless I can help with the milk itself, if you get my drift.

Jan www.grammiesawards.blogspot.com

Jan, Tow would ask first about her diet. What does she eat? What meds is she taking? What does she drink?Any health issues? Does she have digestion problems? Is she on a special diet? Have her keep a food journal. Is she on a low fat diet? fast food? leaky gut?Too many questionsSharidoes she schedule feeds? the closer the feeds the higher the fat content..

Dear group,

I'm working (loosely) with a mom in East Asia (China) -- an American -- who is nursing her 5 month old. Baby is borderline FTT, is now gaining because mom has started him on solid foods. (Rice cereal, of course, but I'm discouraging that big time...going for the avocados, sweet potatoes and bananas...). Baby has green stools -- sometimes of jelly-like consistency (I've not seen a picture of those yet) reminiscent of oversupply, but mom definitely doesn't have oversupply. What she does have, and this really puzzles me -- very very thin milk. She sent me a picture of an ounce that she pumped AFTER 25 minutes of nursing, so theoretically it should be nice, creamy, white. Nope. Looks sorta like dishwater. Very very thin with a tiny (and I mean tiny) layer of fat on the top. I've never seen " hind " milk look like this -- it explains the green poos, I think, and also why the baby is not gaining. Basically it looks sorta like foremilk from a mom with major oversupply... She doesn't have a scale that will give us a good sense of how much he takes at a feed, and I saw one short video that showed a good latch with good nutritive sucking and swallowing -- but it wasn't an entire feed, and just was designed to show me the latch.

Anyway -- any thoughts on what's up with this milk and how to improve the fat content?

Jan Barger

-- ~~~~~~~~~~ Shari Silady ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ " Mothers have as powerful an influence over the welfare of future generations as all other earthly causes combined. " ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

-- ~~~~~~~~~~ Shari Silady ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ " Mothers have as powerful an influence over the welfare of future generations as all other earthly causes combined. "

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

July 27, 2011

Keep us posted. Shari

> Hmmm -- good idea, though I'll have to see if I can get 's or

> 's or Donna's e-mail. Tom Hale probably has it. Will check there. > Interested to see what has to say!!> > And I'm certainly willing to be proven wrong about not being able to

> increase fat in the milk.> > > Jan > _www.grammiesawards.blogspot.com_ (http://www.grammiesawards.blogspot.com/) > >

> > > > > > > This is a good question for Hartman.. I don't know about fat content

> and diet but... my clients have told me if they eat lots of organic protein > during the early day cluster feeding is not so bad. We are what we eat.> Lets see what has to say. This is very interesting.

> could you call or email and his team?> Shari> > On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 8:33 AM, <_ibclc@..._ (mailto:ibclc@...) > > wrote:>

> > > > > Yes, I do need to ask her about her diet, but first I wanted to see if > anyone had any ideas about the milk itself. And, if she has had bariatric > surgery. The thing is, does increasing fat in your diet increase fat in the

> milk? According to the research, no. It changes the fatty acid > composition, but not the total fat. So I don't want to ask her a lot of questions > unless I can help with the milk itself, if you get my drift.

> > Jan > _www.grammiesawards.blogspot.com_ (http://www.grammiesawards.blogspot.com/) > > > > In a message dated 7/27/2011 10:28:29 A.M. Central Daylight Time,

> _sharibclc@..._ (mailto:sharibclc@...) writes:> > > > Jan,> Tow would ask first about her diet. What does she eat? What meds

> is she taking? What does she drink?> Any health issues? Does she have digestion problems? Is she on a special > diet? > Have her keep a food journal. Is she on a low fat diet? fast food?

> leaky gut?> Too many questions> Shari> does she schedule feeds? the closer the feeds the higher the fat > content.. > > On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 6:03 AM, <_ibclc@..._ (mailto:ibclc@...) >

> wrote:> > > > > > Dear group,> > I'm working (loosely) with a mom in East Asia (China) -- an American -- > who is nursing her 5 month old. Baby is borderline FTT, is now gaining

> because mom has started him on solid foods. (Rice cereal, of course, but I'm > discouraging that big time...going for the avocados, sweet potatoes and > bananas...). Baby has green stools -- sometimes of jelly-like consistency (I've

> not seen a picture of those yet) reminiscent of oversupply, but mom > definitely doesn't have oversupply. What she does have, and this really puzzles > me -- very very thin milk. She sent me a picture of an ounce that she

> pumped AFTER 25 minutes of nursing, so theoretically it should be nice, > creamy, white. Nope. Looks sorta like dishwater. Very very thin with a tiny > (and I mean tiny) layer of fat on the top. I've never seen " hind " milk look

> like this -- it explains the green poos, I think, and also why the baby is > not gaining. Basically it looks sorta like foremilk from a mom with major > oversupply... She doesn't have a scale that will give us a good sense of

> how much he takes at a feed, and I saw one short video that showed a good > latch with good nutritive sucking and swallowing -- but it wasn't an entire > feed, and just was designed to show me the latch.

> > Anyway -- any thoughts on what's up with this milk and how to improve the > fat content? > > Jan Barger> > > > > > > >

> > > > -- > ~~~~~~~~~~ Shari Silady ~~~~~~~~~~~~~> " Mothers have as powerful an influence over the welfare of > future generations as all other earthly causes combined. "

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > ~~~~~~~~~~ Shari Silady ~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> " Mothers have as powerful an influence over the welfare of > future generations as all other earthly causes combined. " > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~> > >

July 27, 2011

I went to peter's talk on fat content at ILCA. Shari's right no when she talks about the space between feedings. Also, there is a huge piece we don't know. we really don't know if baby is drinking milk during the whole feeding. Just b/c she pumped at the end of the "feed", baby may have stopped swallowing 20 minutes earlier so really it was the beginning of the feed. I would want to see what baby is doing at the breast first b/f I jump to any conclusions about her milk being faulty. Unless she's severely malnourished I don't see how it's possible that her milk doesn't have the right proportion of fat. Beebe, M.Ed., IBCLC Lactation Consultant/Postpartum Doula www.second9months.comBreastfeeding Between the Lines: http://second9months.wordpress.com/--- Subject: Re: "Thin" milkTo: Date: Wednesday, July 27, 2011, 8:36 AM

But Shari, thanks for the suggestions. Will print them out to make sure I don't miss anything when I e-mail her next.

Now, if anyone knows of anything for sure that will increase fat in the milk -- please let me know....

I do know she doesn't consume dairy at all....baby sensitive to that.

Jan www.grammiesawards.blogspot.com

Yes, I do need to ask her about her diet, but first I wanted to see if anyone had any ideas about the milk itself. And, if she has had bariatric surgery. The thing is, does increasing fat in your diet increase fat in the milk? According to the research, no. It changes the fatty acid composition, but not the total fat. So I don't want to ask her a lot of questions unless I can help with the milk itself, if you get my drift.

Jan www.grammiesawards.blogspot.com

Jan, Tow would ask first about her diet. What does she eat? What meds is she taking? What does she drink?Any health issues? Does she have digestion problems? Is she on a special diet? Have her keep a food journal. Is she on a low fat diet? fast food? leaky gut?Too many questionsSharidoes she schedule feeds? the closer the feeds the higher the fat content..

Dear group,

I'm working (loosely) with a mom in East Asia (China) -- an American -- who is nursing her 5 month old. Baby is borderline FTT, is now gaining because mom has started him on solid foods. (Rice cereal, of course, but I'm discouraging that big time...going for the avocados, sweet potatoes and bananas...). Baby has green stools -- sometimes of jelly-like consistency (I've not seen a picture of those yet) reminiscent of oversupply, but mom definitely doesn't have oversupply. What she does have, and this really puzzles me -- very very thin milk. She sent me a picture of an ounce that she pumped AFTER 25 minutes of nursing, so theoretically it should be nice, creamy, white. Nope. Looks sorta like dishwater. Very very thin with a tiny (and I mean tiny) layer of fat on the top. I've never seen "hind" milk look like this -- it explains the green poos, I think, and also why the baby is not gaining. Basically it looks sorta like foremilk from a mom with major oversupply... She doesn't have a scale that will give us a good sense of how much he takes at a feed, and I saw one short video that showed a good latch with good nutritive sucking and swallowing -- but it wasn't an entire feed, and just was designed to show me the latch.

Anyway -- any thoughts on what's up with this milk and how to improve the fat content?

Jan Barger

-- ~~~~~~~~~~ Shari Silady ~~~~~~~~~~~~~"Mothers have as powerful an influence over the welfare of future generations as all other earthly causes combined."~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

July 27, 2011

I wish I had gone to his talk. So hard to be in 2 places at the alae time. Good conf. Shari

> I went to peter's talk on fat content at ILCA. Shari's right no when she talks about the space between feedings. Also, there is a huge piece we don't know. we really don't know if baby is drinking milk during the whole feeding. Just b/c she pumped at the end of the " feed " , baby may have stopped swallowing 20 minutes earlier so really it was the beginning of the feed. I would want to see what baby is doing at the breast first b/f I jump to any conclusions about her milk being faulty. Unless she's severely malnourished I don't see how it's possible that her milk doesn't have the right proportion of fat.

> > Beebe, M.Ed., IBCLC > Lactation Consultant/Postpartum Doula > > www.second9months.comBreastfeeding Between the Lines: http://second9months.wordpress.com/

> > > > > > >

> > > > Dear > group,> > I'm working (loosely) with a mom in East Asia (China) > -- an American -- who is nursing her 5 month old. Baby is borderline

> FTT, is now gaining because mom has started him on solid foods. > (Rice cereal, of course, but I'm discouraging that big time...going for > the avocados, sweet potatoes and bananas...). Baby has green stools

> -- sometimes of jelly-like consistency (I've not seen a picture of those > yet) reminiscent of oversupply, but mom definitely doesn't have > oversupply. What she does have, and this really puzzles me -- very

> very thin milk. She sent me a picture of an ounce that she pumped > AFTER 25 minutes of nursing, so theoretically it should be nice, creamy, > white. Nope. Looks sorta like dishwater. Very very thin

> with a tiny (and I mean tiny) layer of fat on the top. I've never > seen " hind " milk look like this -- it explains the green poos, I think, > and also why the baby is not gaining. Basically it looks sorta like

> foremilk from a mom with major oversupply... She doesn't have a > scale that will give us a good sense of how much he takes at a feed, and I > saw one short video that showed a good latch with good nutritive sucking

> and swallowing -- but it wasn't an entire feed, and just was designed to > show me the latch.> > Anyway -- any thoughts on what's up with this milk > and how to improve the fat content?

> > Jan > Barger> > > > > -- > ~~~~~~~~~~ Shari Silady ~~~~~~~~~~~~~> " Mothers have > as powerful an influence over the welfare of

> future generations as all > other earthly causes combined. " > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

July 27, 2011

well, if her milk truly looks like that at the end of a feed, she would be an outlier for sure! I'm really interested in learning more as you learn more about this! please keep us posted, Jan. Beebe, M.Ed., IBCLC Lactation Consultant/Postpartum Doula www.second9months.comBreastfeeding Between the Lines: http://second9months.wordpress.com/--- Subject: Re: "Thin" milkTo: Date: Wednesday, July 27, 2011, 9:39 AM

I considered that, and wouldn't have thought as much about it except for the low gain, and the green poos. And she's an experienced mom -- third baby, which doesn't always mean she knows what she is doing. She's had issues before with her other two girls, but has always assumed it was supply issues. She thought she had more with this baby -- and perhaps she does, but perhaps it is something else entirely.

And let's say he only "drank" for the first 5 minutes of the feed -- or even only the first couple of minutes. I would still expect the milk to look a heck of a lot whiter/creamier than it did. And I am aware of the space between feeds and fat content....

I have a slide I show in my courses of different colors of milk. None of the 6 bottles look anything like this one, and you can tell that at least one of them was pumped at the beginning of a feed....

I've been working with bf moms and babies since 1985 just doing lactation, and been working in MCH since 1972. I truly, have never seen milk quite like this.

Jan

I went to peter's talk on fat content at ILCA. Shari's right no when she talks about the space between feedings. Also, there is a huge piece we don't know. we really don't know if baby is drinking milk during the whole feeding. Just b/c she pumped at the end of the "feed", baby may have stopped swallowing 20 minutes earlier so really it was the beginning of the feed. I would want to see what baby is doing at the breast first b/f I jump to any conclusions about her milk being faulty. Unless she's severely malnourished I don't see how it's possible that her milk doesn't have the right proportion of fat.

Beebe, M.Ed., IBCLC Lactation Consultant/Postpartum Doula www.second9months.com

Breastfeeding Between the Lines: http://second9months.wordpress.com/

Dear group,

I'm working (loosely) with a mom in East Asia (China) -- an American -- who is nursing her 5 month old. Baby is borderline FTT, is now gaining because mom has started him on solid foods. (Rice cereal, of course, but I'm discouraging that big time...going for the avocados, sweet potatoes and bananas...). Baby has green stools -- sometimes of jelly-like consistency (I've not seen a picture of those yet) reminiscent of oversupply, but mom definitely doesn't have oversupply. What she does have, and this really puzzles me -- very very thin milk. She sent me a picture of an ounce that she pumped AFTER 25 minutes of nursing, so theoretically it should be nice, creamy, white. Nope. Looks sorta like dishwater. Very very thin with a tiny (and I mean tiny) layer of fat on the top. I've never seen "hind" milk look like this -- it explains the green poos, I think, and also why the baby is not gaining. Basically it looks sorta like foremilk from a mom with major oversupply... She doesn't have a scale that will give us a good sense of how much he takes at a feed, and I saw one short video that showed a good latch with good nutritive sucking and swallowing -- but it wasn't an entire feed, and just was designed to show me the latch.

Anyway -- any thoughts on what's up with this milk and how to improve the fat content?

Jan Barger

-- ~~~~~~~~~~ Shari Silady ~~~~~~~~~~~~~"Mothers have as powerful an influence over the welfare of future generations as all other earthly causes combined."~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

July 27, 2011

I had a client ask me about her milk yesterday funny this topic popped up. She said she has seen a few other people's expressed milk and it looks transluscent and has a separated fat line at the top. Also mostly what I have seen. Her expressed milk looks as if it were homoginized and she said it doesn't ever separate it is white not clear at all. Thoughts?

Lou Moramarco IBCLC

Birth Breastfeeding and Before

From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of BeebeSent: Wednesday, July 27, 2011 12:17 PMTo: Subject: Re: "Thin" milk

I went to peter's talk on fat content at ILCA. Shari's right no when she talks about the space between feedings. Also, there is a huge piece we don't know. we really don't know if baby is drinking milk during the whole feeding. Just b/c she pumped at the end of the "feed", baby may have stopped swallowing 20 minutes earlier so really it was the beginning of the feed. I would want to see what baby is doing at the breast first b/f I jump to any conclusions about her milk being faulty. Unless she's severely malnourished I don't see how it's possible that her milk doesn't have the right proportion of fat.

Beebe, M.Ed., IBCLC Lactation Consultant/Postpartum Doula www.second9months.com

Breastfeeding Between the Lines: http://second9months.wordpress.com/

Dear group,

I'm working (loosely) with a mom in East Asia (China) -- an American -- who is nursing her 5 month old. Baby is borderline FTT, is now gaining because mom has started him on solid foods. (Rice cereal, of course, but I'm discouraging that big time...going for the avocados, sweet potatoes and bananas...). Baby has green stools -- sometimes of jelly-like consistency (I've not seen a picture of those yet) reminiscent of oversupply, but mom definitely doesn't have oversupply. What she does have, and this really puzzles me -- very very thin milk. She sent me a picture of an ounce that she pumped AFTER 25 minutes of nursing, so theoretically it should be nice, creamy, white. Nope. Looks sorta like dishwater. Very very thin with a tiny (and I mean tiny) layer of fat on the top. I've never seen "hind" milk look like this -- it explains the green poos, I think, and also why the baby is not gaining. Basically it looks sorta like foremilk from a mom with major oversupply... She doesn't have a scale that will give us a good sense of how much he takes at a feed, and I saw one short video that showed a good latch with good nutritive sucking and swallowing -- but it wasn't an entire feed, and just was designed to show me the latch.

Anyway -- any thoughts on what's up with this milk and how to improve the fat content?

Jan Barger

-- ~~~~~~~~~~ Shari Silady ~~~~~~~~~~~~~"Mothers have as powerful an influence over the welfare of future generations as all other earthly causes combined."~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

July 27, 2011

Well Ann, sure can't hurt!! Again, not evidence based, but y'know, sometimes ya gotta try what ya gotta try. And not everything in life is evidence based, including babies drinking from bottles.

Thank you!

(Mom hasn't responded yet to my last couple of e-mails, so I'm still in the dark about any of the questions any of you posed....)

Jan www.grammiesawards.blogspot.com

ï»¿ Jan,

For years I have recommended a tablespoon or two of coconut oil daily to my clients to increase fat content of their milk. Can't for the life of me recall where I first heard this, but Mom's say it works.

Anne Grider

Re: "Thin" milk

Hi Lou,

That I have seen. My colleague's daughterinlaw has a freezer full of milk -- we have a picture of it, and dang, if it doesn't all look like bottles of cream standing there. No fat separation at all, which is what we usually see.

Jan www.grammiesawards.blogspot.com

I had a client ask me about her milk yesterday funny this topic popped up. She said she has seen a few other people's expressed milk and it looks transluscent and has a separated fat line at the top. Also mostly what I have seen. Her expressed milk looks as if it were homoginized and she said it doesn't ever separate it is white not clear at all. Thoughts?

Lou Moramarco IBCLC

Birth Breastfeeding and Before

From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of BeebeSent: Wednesday, July 27, 2011 12:17 PMTo: Subject: Re: "Thin" milk

I went to peter's talk on fat content at ILCA. Shari's right no when she talks about the space between feedings. Also, there is a huge piece we don't know. we really don't know if baby is drinking milk during the whole feeding. Just b/c she pumped at the end of the "feed", baby may have stopped swallowing 20 minutes earlier so really it was the beginning of the feed. I would want to see what baby is doing at the breast first b/f I jump to any conclusions about her milk being faulty. Unless she's severely malnourished I don't see how it's possible that her milk doesn't have the right proportion of fat.

Beebe, M.Ed., IBCLC Lactation Consultant/Postpartum Doula www.second9months.com

Breastfeeding Between the Lines: http://second9months.wordpress.com/

Dear group,

I'm working (loosely) with a mom in East Asia (China) -- an American -- who is nursing her 5 month old. Baby is borderline FTT, is now gaining because mom has started him on solid foods. (Rice cereal, of course, but I'm discouraging that big time...going for the avocados, sweet potatoes and bananas...). Baby has green stools -- sometimes of jelly-like consistency (I've not seen a picture of those yet) reminiscent of oversupply, but mom definitely doesn't have oversupply. What she does have, and this really puzzles me -- very very thin milk. She sent me a picture of an ounce that she pumped AFTER 25 minutes of nursing, so theoretically it should be nice, creamy, white. Nope. Looks sorta like dishwater. Very very thin with a tiny (and I mean tiny) layer of fat on the top. I've never seen "hind" milk look like this -- it explains the green poos, I think, and also why the baby is not gaining. Basically it looks sorta like foremilk from a mom with major oversupply... She doesn't have a scale that will give us a good sense of how much he takes at a feed, and I saw one short video that showed a good latch with good nutritive sucking and swallowing -- but it wasn't an entire feed, and just was designed to show me the latch.

Anyway -- any thoughts on what's up with this milk and how to improve the fat content?

Jan Barger

-- ~~~~~~~~~~ Shari Silady ~~~~~~~~~~~~~"Mothers have as powerful an influence over the welfare of future generations as all other earthly causes combined."~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

July 28, 2011

Also I remember saying the fat contents depends on time of day, how long since last feed and age of baby.could she have her milk spinned on a crematocrit for the numbers of fat and calories? I use to do that all the time when I worked in an out patient clinic connected to our hospital. So many moms would come in because their docs said their milk was not rich enough so give formula. Every time the fat was on the high end.

Shari

Hi Lou,

That I have seen. My colleague's daughterinlaw has a freezer full of milk -- we have a picture of it, and dang, if it doesn't all look like bottles of cream standing there. No fat separation at all, which is what we usually see.

Jan www.grammiesawards.blogspot.com

I had a client ask me about her milk yesterday funny this topic popped up. She said she has seen a few other people's expressed milk and it looks transluscent and has a separated fat line at the top. Also mostly what I have seen. Her expressed milk looks as if it were homoginized and she said it doesn't ever separate it is white not clear at all. Thoughts?

Lou Moramarco IBCLC

Birth Breastfeeding and Before

From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of BeebeSent: Wednesday, July 27, 2011 12:17 PMTo: Subject: Re: " Thin " milk

I went to peter's talk on fat content at ILCA. Shari's right no when she talks about the space between feedings. Also, there is a huge piece we don't know. we really don't know if baby is drinking milk during the whole feeding. Just b/c she pumped at the end of the " feed " , baby may have stopped swallowing 20 minutes earlier so really it was the beginning of the feed. I would want to see what baby is doing at the breast first b/f I jump to any conclusions about her milk being faulty. Unless she's severely malnourished I don't see how it's possible that her milk doesn't have the right proportion of fat.

Beebe, M.Ed., IBCLC Lactation Consultant/Postpartum Doula www.second9months.com

Breastfeeding Between the Lines: http://second9months.wordpress.com/

Dear group,

I'm working (loosely) with a mom in East Asia (China) -- an American -- who is nursing her 5 month old. Baby is borderline FTT, is now gaining because mom has started him on solid foods. (Rice cereal, of course, but I'm discouraging that big time...going for the avocados, sweet potatoes and bananas...). Baby has green stools -- sometimes of jelly-like consistency (I've not seen a picture of those yet) reminiscent of oversupply, but mom definitely doesn't have oversupply. What she does have, and this really puzzles me -- very very thin milk. She sent me a picture of an ounce that she pumped AFTER 25 minutes of nursing, so theoretically it should be nice, creamy, white. Nope. Looks sorta like dishwater. Very very thin with a tiny (and I mean tiny) layer of fat on the top. I've never seen " hind " milk look like this -- it explains the green poos, I think, and also why the baby is not gaining. Basically it looks sorta like foremilk from a mom with major oversupply... She doesn't have a scale that will give us a good sense of how much he takes at a feed, and I saw one short video that showed a good latch with good nutritive sucking and swallowing -- but it wasn't an entire feed, and just was designed to show me the latch.

Anyway -- any thoughts on what's up with this milk and how to improve the fat content?

Jan Barger

-- ~~~~~~~~~~ Shari Silady ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ " Mothers have as powerful an influence over the welfare of future generations as all other earthly causes combined. " ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

-- ~~~~~~~~~~ Shari Silady ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ " Mothers have as powerful an influence over the welfare of future generations as all other earthly causes combined. "

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

July 28, 2011

That would be lovely and of she lived in the States I'm sure we could get it done. Bit she lives in Asia. Sorry on my cell so making typing errors Jan

Also I remember saying the fat contents depends on time of day, how long since last feed and age of baby.could she have her milk spinned on a crematocrit for the numbers of fat and calories? I use to do that all the time when I worked in an out patient clinic connected to our hospital. So many moms would come in because their docs said their milk was not rich enough so give formula. Every time the fat was on the high end.

Shari

Hi Lou,

That I have seen. My colleague's daughterinlaw has a freezer full of milk -- we have a picture of it, and dang, if it doesn't all look like bottles of cream standing there. No fat separation at all, which is what we usually see.

Jan www.grammiesawards.blogspot.com

I had a client ask me about her milk yesterday funny this topic popped up. She said she has seen a few other people's expressed milk and it looks transluscent and has a separated fat line at the top. Also mostly what I have seen. Her expressed milk looks as if it were homoginized and she said it doesn't ever separate it is white not clear at all. Thoughts?

Lou Moramarco IBCLC

Birth Breastfeeding and Before

From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of BeebeSent: Wednesday, July 27, 2011 12:17 PMTo: Subject: Re: "Thin" milk

I went to peter's talk on fat content at ILCA. Shari's right no when she talks about the space between feedings. Also, there is a huge piece we don't know. we really don't know if baby is drinking milk during the whole feeding. Just b/c she pumped at the end of the "feed", baby may have stopped swallowing 20 minutes earlier so really it was the beginning of the feed. I would want to see what baby is doing at the breast first b/f I jump to any conclusions about her milk being faulty. Unless she's severely malnourished I don't see how it's possible that her milk doesn't have the right proportion of fat.

Beebe, M.Ed., IBCLC Lactation Consultant/Postpartum Doula www.second9months.com

Breastfeeding Between the Lines: http://second9months.wordpress.com/

Dear group,

I'm working (loosely) with a mom in East Asia (China) -- an American -- who is nursing her 5 month old. Baby is borderline FTT, is now gaining because mom has started him on solid foods. (Rice cereal, of course, but I'm discouraging that big time...going for the avocados, sweet potatoes and bananas...). Baby has green stools -- sometimes of jelly-like consistency (I've not seen a picture of those yet) reminiscent of oversupply, but mom definitely doesn't have oversupply. What she does have, and this really puzzles me -- very very thin milk. She sent me a picture of an ounce that she pumped AFTER 25 minutes of nursing, so theoretically it should be nice, creamy, white. Nope. Looks sorta like dishwater. Very very thin with a tiny (and I mean tiny) layer of fat on the top. I've never seen "hind" milk look like this -- it explains the green poos, I think, and also why the baby is not gaining. Basically it looks sorta like foremilk from a mom with major oversupply... She doesn't have a scale that will give us a good sense of how much he takes at a feed, and I saw one short video that showed a good latch with good nutritive sucking and swallowing -- but it wasn't an entire feed, and just was designed to show me the latch.

Anyway -- any thoughts on what's up with this milk and how to improve the fat content?

Jan Barger

-- ~~~~~~~~~~ Shari Silady ~~~~~~~~~~~~~"Mothers have as powerful an influence over the welfare of future generations as all other earthly causes combined."~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

-- ~~~~~~~~~~ Shari Silady ~~~~~~~~~~~~~"Mothers have as powerful an influence over the welfare of future generations as all other earthly causes combined."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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July 28, 2011

ï»¿

Jan,

For years I have recommended a tablespoon or two of coconut oil daily to my clients to increase fat content of their milk. Can't for the life of me recall where I first heard this, but Mom's say it works.

Anne Grider

Re: "Thin" milk

Hi Lou,

That I have seen. My colleague's daughterinlaw has a freezer full of milk -- we have a picture of it, and dang, if it doesn't all look like bottles of cream standing there. No fat separation at all, which is what we usually see.

Jan www.grammiesawards.blogspot.com

I had a client ask me about her milk yesterday funny this topic popped up. She said she has seen a few other people's expressed milk and it looks transluscent and has a separated fat line at the top. Also mostly what I have seen. Her expressed milk looks as if it were homoginized and she said it doesn't ever separate it is white not clear at all. Thoughts?

Lou Moramarco IBCLC

Birth Breastfeeding and Before

From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of BeebeSent: Wednesday, July 27, 2011 12:17 PMTo: Subject: Re: "Thin" milk

I went to peter's talk on fat content at ILCA. Shari's right no when she talks about the space between feedings. Also, there is a huge piece we don't know. we really don't know if baby is drinking milk during the whole feeding. Just b/c she pumped at the end of the "feed", baby may have stopped swallowing 20 minutes earlier so really it was the beginning of the feed. I would want to see what baby is doing at the breast first b/f I jump to any conclusions about her milk being faulty. Unless she's severely malnourished I don't see how it's possible that her milk doesn't have the right proportion of fat.

Beebe, M.Ed., IBCLC Lactation Consultant/Postpartum Doula www.second9months.com

Breastfeeding Between the Lines: http://second9months.wordpress.com/

Dear group,

I'm working (loosely) with a mom in East Asia (China) -- an American -- who is nursing her 5 month old. Baby is borderline FTT, is now gaining because mom has started him on solid foods. (Rice cereal, of course, but I'm discouraging that big time...going for the avocados, sweet potatoes and bananas...). Baby has green stools -- sometimes of jelly-like consistency (I've not seen a picture of those yet) reminiscent of oversupply, but mom definitely doesn't have oversupply. What she does have, and this really puzzles me -- very very thin milk. She sent me a picture of an ounce that she pumped AFTER 25 minutes of nursing, so theoretically it should be nice, creamy, white. Nope. Looks sorta like dishwater. Very very thin with a tiny (and I mean tiny) layer of fat on the top. I've never seen "hind" milk look like this -- it explains the green poos, I think, and also why the baby is not gaining. Basically it looks sorta like foremilk from a mom with major oversupply... She doesn't have a scale that will give us a good sense of how much he takes at a feed, and I saw one short video that showed a good latch with good nutritive sucking and swallowing -- but it wasn't an entire feed, and just was designed to show me the latch.

Anyway -- any thoughts on what's up with this milk and how to improve the fat content?

Jan Barger

-- ~~~~~~~~~~ Shari Silady ~~~~~~~~~~~~~"Mothers have as powerful an influence over the welfare of future generations as all other earthly causes combined."~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

July 28, 2011

Hi, Jan.

Is mother on low-fat diet? It's hard to put fat in milk if you aren't consuming any.

Also, adding fiber-rich foods can help to increase the amount of fat in the breastmilk. (Research from the dairy industry that, yes, does apply to humans.)

Dee Kassing

Subject: "Thin" milkTo: Date: Wednesday, July 27, 2011, 8:03 AM

Dear group,

I'm working (loosely) with a mom in East Asia (China) -- an American -- who is nursing her 5 month old. Baby is borderline FTT, is now gaining because mom has started him on solid foods. (Rice cereal, of course, but I'm discouraging that big time...going for the avocados, sweet potatoes and bananas...). Baby has green stools -- sometimes of jelly-like consistency (I've not seen a picture of those yet) reminiscent of oversupply, but mom definitely doesn't have oversupply. What she does have, and this really puzzles me -- very very thin milk. She sent me a picture of an ounce that she pumped AFTER 25 minutes of nursing, so theoretically it should be nice, creamy, white. Nope. Looks sorta like dishwater. Very very thin with a tiny (and I mean tiny) layer of fat on the top. I've never seen "hind" milk look like this -- it explains the green poos, I think, and also why the baby is

not gaining. Basically it looks sorta like foremilk from a mom with major oversupply... She doesn't have a scale that will give us a good sense of how much he takes at a feed, and I saw one short video that showed a good latch with good nutritive sucking and swallowing -- but it wasn't an entire feed, and just was designed to show me the latch.

Anyway -- any thoughts on what's up with this milk and how to improve the fat content?

Jan Barger

July 28, 2011

Perhaps this mother has high-fat milk, with so much fat content that it can't really "rise to the top". I once worked with a mother who made "half-and-half" literally! When the milk sat for a couple hours between feedings, and the cream rose to the "top", fully half of the bottle was cream. Her baby didn't consume many ounces in the day (was being bottle-fed expressed milk due to latch issues), but didn't need to since there were so many calories per volume due to high fat content.

Dee Kassing

Dear group,

I'm working (loosely) with a mom in East Asia (China) -- an American -- who is nursing her 5 month old. Baby is borderline FTT, is now gaining because mom has started him on solid foods. (Rice cereal, of course, but I'm discouraging that big time...going for the avocados, sweet potatoes and bananas...). Baby has green stools -- sometimes of jelly-like consistency (I've not seen a picture of those yet) reminiscent of oversupply, but mom definitely doesn't have oversupply. What she does have, and this really puzzles me -- very very thin milk. She sent me a picture of an ounce that she pumped AFTER 25 minutes of nursing, so theoretically it should be nice, creamy, white. Nope. Looks sorta like dishwater. Very very thin with a tiny (and I mean tiny) layer of fat on the top. I've never seen "hind" milk look like this -- it explains the green poos, I think, and also why the baby is not

gaining. Basically it looks sorta like foremilk from a mom with major oversupply... She doesn't have a scale that will give us a good sense of how much he takes at a feed, and I saw one short video that showed a good latch with good nutritive sucking and swallowing -- but it wasn't an entire feed, and just was designed to show me the latch.

Anyway -- any thoughts on what's up with this milk and how to improve the fat content?

Jan Barger

-- ~~~~~~~~~~ Shari Silady ~~~~~~~~~~~~~"Mothers have as powerful an influence over the welfare of future generations as all other earthly causes combined."~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

July 28, 2011

Dear Jan,

Do we know what the baby's initial weight hx looked like?

Was he FTT all the way back to the beginning?

I have had success with adding coconut oil to a mom's diet, 1-2 Ts/ per day, starting with 1 t. and gradually increasing. Add it to smoothies or to cereal, spread it on hot bagels or toast, etc.

Have had several moms who were trying to get TTed babies' weight up and not intro AIM, so we wanted to increase the cream in milk that was produced in lower than ideal amounts. They reported more cream and satisfied babies despite only slightly increased milk production.

I am wondering if it is metabolic. If she has gut issues which can cause production issues as per Tow, why couldn't they also cause composition issues?

If the mom's gut is inflamed, it would reduce her body's ability to assimilate nutrients, poor nutrient assimilation means reduced raw material for milk synthesis...right?

Ann

July 28, 2011

I trust you Jan when you say this is an anomaly.

OTOH, I absolutely do not believe that we cannot change the fat content of milk.

But protein isn't going to do it. I read a lot of documents--anything I can find

really--by holistic practitioners simply observing clinical outcomes. What I

have come across is consistent observation of improved fat content of milk when

mothers improve their own fat intake.

I have one example of a friend whose baby was scheduled for heart surgery. Mom

eats a grain-free, paleo style diet--very high in clean, saturated fats. Her

baby was growing very slowly bc of the heart condition--but well enough to avoid

supplements. After the surgery, the doctors wanted to add HMF to her milk. She

insisted on a creamatocrit--I cannot remember the number--but it shut them right

up and no HMF was used.

There is a lot of anecdotal evidence of coconut oil, flax oil (not my first

choice), hemp oil and clean, grass-fed butter increasing fat content of milk. I

also suspect that other nutrient-dense foods that provide phytonutrients and

improve absorption of fat-soluble vitamins may be significant.

Now, I think one of the things that often happens when moms improve the quality

of the fats in their diet is that they often decrease the intake of poor

quality, pro-inflammatory foods. When you tell me the mom has a history of low

supply, I, of course want to know about her gut health.

I also disagree with --I do not think that a mother needs to be severely

malnourished to have compromised milk supply and I think many Western women are

indeed severely malnourished.

As much as I agree about adding nutrient-dense foods to this baby's diet (I

would slather his food with coconut oil), I would consider a home-made formula.

At that age, I have seen babies catch up very quickly when we have done so.

Also, in recent years, the Chinese have become victims of the dumping of GMO

non-foods onto other cultures. The use of canola has become very common in China

(replacing traditional hand-pressed rapeseed oil)--this is cheap, very poor

quality, GMO oil that significantly compromises health (the smoke from this

rancid oil is causing lung cancer in China). So, I wonder about the quality of

the fats in Mom's diet as well.

As an aside--another thing I have been trying to find out is the composition of

oligosaccharides in human milk dependent upon maternal diet. I have emailed a

nutritional archaeologist whose expertise is in prebiotics and have not yet

heard back from him.

Tow, IBCLC, France

>

> I considered that, and wouldn't have thought as much about it except for

> the low gain, and the green poos. And she's an experienced mom -- third

> baby, which doesn't always mean she knows what she is doing. She's had

issues

> before with her other two girls, but has always assumed it was supply

> issues. She thought she had more with this baby -- and perhaps she does, but

> perhaps it is something else entirely.

>

> And let's say he only " drank " for the first 5 minutes of the feed -- or

> even only the first couple of minutes. I would still expect the milk to

> look a heck of a lot whiter/creamier than it did. And I am aware of the

space

> between feeds and fat content....

>

> I have a slide I show in my courses of different colors of milk. None of

> the 6 bottles look anything like this one, and you can tell that at least

> one of them was pumped at the beginning of a feed....

>

> I've been working with bf moms and babies since 1985 just doing lactation,

> and been working in MCH since 1972. I truly, have never seen milk quite

> like this.

>

> Jan

>

> In a message dated 7/27/2011 11:16:58 A.M. Central Daylight Time,

> second9months@... writes:

>

July 28, 2011

I would absolutely not suggest adding " fiber-rich " foods to mom's diet. Usually,

mothers interpret this to mean grains which are pro-inflammatory and do even

more damage to the gut. Lack of fiber is not the problem people think it is.

Lack of prebiotioc, probiotoc and nutrient-dense foods is.

Tow, IBCLC, France

>

> Subject: " Thin " milk

> To:

> Date: Wednesday, July 27, 2011, 8:03 AM

>

> Dear group,

>

> I'm working (loosely) with a mom in East Asia (China) -- an American -- who is

nursing her 5 month old. Baby is borderline FTT, is now gaining because mom has

started him on solid foods. (Rice cereal, of course, but I'm discouraging that

big time...going for the avocados, sweet potatoes and bananas...). Baby has

green stools -- sometimes of jelly-like consistency (I've not seen a picture of

those yet) reminiscent of oversupply, but mom definitely doesn't have

oversupply. What she does have, and this really puzzles me -- very very thin

milk. She sent me a picture of an ounce that she pumped AFTER 25 minutes of

nursing, so theoretically it should be nice, creamy, white. Nope. Looks sorta

like dishwater. Very very thin with a tiny (and I mean tiny) layer of fat on

the top. I've never seen " hind " milk look like this -- it explains the green

poos, I think, and also why the baby is not gaining. Basically it looks sorta

like foremilk from a

> mom with major oversupply... She doesn't have a scale that will give us a

good sense of how much he takes at a feed, and I saw one short video that showed

a good latch with good nutritive sucking and swallowing -- but it wasn't an

entire feed, and just was designed to show me the latch.

>

> Anyway -- any thoughts on what's up with this milk and how to improve the fat

content?

>

> Jan Barger

>

July 28, 2011

Dear all:

I am going to urge everyone who has jumped on the thin milk being the problem

band wagon to remember that Genna provided us with an EXCELLENT reading

list of articles debunking this having anything to do with slow growth. Babies

in Africa are fed 20 times a day and in many areas don't have the " colic " that

moms in developed areas complain about. In these countries of frequent

switching and feeding, the ONLY thing that made a difference was the volume of

milk. And those with a higher volume took longer to get down to the fatty part

of the milk. We have a childhood OBESITY epidemic and I simply do NOT

understand why we focus on FAT as the best way to increase growth. This was

often used years ago for many children who were not growing well according to

the varied growth standards of the past which only resulted in children who were

THIN initially being then ending OVERWEIGHT and OBESE later in life. I had a

friend who was put on a regime of drinking milkshakes. She is fine boned. At

one point in her late teens she became enormously obese. She fortunately worked

very very hard and is the most fit individual I know because she goes to hard

core boot camp style exercise classes all the time and is again slender, lean

and very fit -- only because she works very hard at this.

A few possibilities that come to mind to me long before considering any

lactoengineering of milk merely by how it looks are:

* tongue tie - making it impossible for the baby to remove milk after the first

milk ejection reflex

* infrequent feedings - so the breasts may be overfull initially, but then the

baby is too tired to feed because the baby was put off too long

* rapid milk ejection reflex -- so the baby feeds well initially on the milk

pouring out but then stops swallowing on purpose so as to calm down a belly that

filled too quickly

There are many styles of breasts and I have seen a slight tendency among certain

Chinese mothers towards the rapidly flowing start and stop breasts.

The research on the fat content in milk shows a HUGE VARIATION in fat content

from feed to feed, breast to breast, in the SAME woman. So, even if you had ONE

creamatocrit it would not really tell you much about the fat content of the

milk.

It is entirely possible that the baby first was able to feed enough to drop get

to a higher fat content, stopped swallowing and in the next 15 minutes of

nonnutritive sucking the breast refilled enough to drop the fat content again.

The important issue is finding an appropriate routine for this baby to grow to

his or her potential.

As for diet, no you canNOT change the fat content with diet, you CAN change the

fat COMPOSITION. Usually if there is a LOW supply it will take LESS time to get

to the FATTY part of the milk. Bariatric surgery could play a role, but I would

evaluate that possibility affecting the milk only after evaluating other more

likely possibilities FIRST. This is because really evaluating the fat content

would entail at least 24 hours of careful creamatocrits and they may not even

reflect that content of the milk the baby is actually drinking. I f you took

samples of the milk at different times, that might not reflect what the baby is

actually getting and even if the mom pumped for 24 hours -- and even that

wouldn't reflect what the baby drinks. In the end if the bariatric surgery did

cause a reduction in fat content, I still haven't seen any research to suggest

you could improve the fat content of this mother's milk with her diet anyway.

So basically, while it is advisable for all mothers to be on a healthy diet,

you're back to looking at an appropriate feeding routine for the baby anyway

REGARDLESS of why the milk looks the way it does.

Best regards,

E. Burger, MHS, PhD, IBCLC

July 28, 2011

,

From my perspective, the fact that the original post came from a very

experienced LC caused me to assume that the basics were well-covered and that TT

and other obvious issues were ruled out.

Also, you referenced Chinese moms, but this mother is American, and Jan did not

mention her ethnicity.

While it is true that feeding patterns play a significant role in growth, I am

not prepared to make the leap, based upon one study, that fat content is not

impacted by diet. In either case, however, the quality of the fat is significant

to growth. But, I was also very specific about phyronutrients. We need

micronutrients--for example, this baby could need zinc--which is common when

growth is an issue.

Further, I am the first person to lose it when mothers are told by pediatricians

to " fatten " their babies up with full fat cow milk products. Not because

saturated fat is bad, but because cow milk is processed poor quality,

pro-inflammatory non-food.

Healthy fat does not make people fat. Milkshakes sure will, though. And so will

grains and sugar. Also, I would not move to try to change the milk based upon

appearance--but the appearance of the milk, coupled with poor weight gain would

lead me to delve pretty deeply into diet.

And, as I see it, mothers are inherently lacto-engineering milk every time they

put something in their mouths.

Tow, IBCLC, France

>

> Dear all:

>

> I am going to urge everyone who has jumped on the thin milk being the problem