Guest guest Posted August 3, 2008 Report Share Posted August 3, 2008 C, You raise some important questions. If I may, I will play Devil's advocate and present the opposite hypothesis; that SSRIs have over- sensitized postsynaptic receptors, and when you take the antagonist, you see an improvement because you reduce serotonin signalling. And if you take anything that raises serotonin, you get a worse response than somebody who has never taken an SSRI because the serotonin receptors are hypersensitized. I'm not saying this is the case, just asking how can we prove that your hypothesis of de-sensitization is correct, as opposed to hypersensitization? And no, I haven't tried antagonists (yet), but I am interested in the idea. Vornan > > I want to start a new thread that focuses on 5HT1A/B receptor > blockade, because I think this is where our problem and solution > ultimately lie. > From the scientific abstracts I've read on the internet, SSRI's > downregulate 5HT1A postsynaptic receptors -among others- and that the > use of 5HT1A antagonists can restore receptor sensitivity/density. > > The problem we face is: What medication can we reasonably ask for that > will help our situation? Most 5HT1A antagonists are found in a class > of psych meds called neuroleptics or antipsychotic, antischizphrenic > drugs which usually have associated dopamine antagonist properties. > > It may be difficult for a patient suffering from SSRI induced sexual > dysfunction to ask for Spiperone or Chlorpromazine as simply an > adjuvant to or remedy for SSRI. > > I'm hoping that one of us will soon find such an agent. > > I already know Nefazodone works so-so for this problem, but it has > problems due to adrenoreceptor antagonism and very slight chance of > liver toxicity. > > I should also post a retraction about Yohimbine HCL. According to > Wikipedia it IS classified as a 5HT1A/B Antagonist, but there is no > citation for this. When I Googled Yohimbine HCL on the internet, I > find that Yohimbine HCL is only listed as a 5HT1A/B agonist, so now > I'm not sure what to believe, but I apologize for passing along what > could be incorrect info from Wikipedia. I felt some improvement from > Yohimbine, but now I'm thinking it was entirely from the > norepinepherine increase. > > In past posts, people have brought up MDMA as a possibility, but I > just don't see that or Nefazodone for that matter as long term > solutions or cures. MDMA is similar to amphetamine in that it boosts > SERT /5HTT and oxytocin. In the short term, this increase in > catecholamines may give you a feeling of heightened libido as does > methylphenidate or adderall, but they may ultimately further down > regulate our already marginal 5HT1A receptors causing even less > sensitivity. > > Vornan, have you tried any sort of 5HT1 antagonist? > > C > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2008 Report Share Posted August 3, 2008 How about this one? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olanzapine I ask because a doctor wanted to put me on Symbyax the other day. I'd have tried it if it didn't have fluoxetine in it (the offending medication in my case). But I could probably get Olanzapine as it's similar. I'm not sure if it is involved in the receptors at hand or not - anyone know? It seems to be in a similar class as the drugs you mentioned though. -- Jon > > > > I want to start a new thread that focuses on 5HT1A/B receptor > > blockade, because I think this is where our problem and solution > > ultimately lie. > > From the scientific abstracts I've read on the internet, SSRI's > > downregulate 5HT1A postsynaptic receptors -among others- and that > the > > use of 5HT1A antagonists can restore receptor sensitivity/density. > > > > The problem we face is: What medication can we reasonably ask for > that > > will help our situation? Most 5HT1A antagonists are found in a class > > of psych meds called neuroleptics or antipsychotic, antischizphrenic > > drugs which usually have associated dopamine antagonist properties. > > > > It may be difficult for a patient suffering from SSRI induced sexual > > dysfunction to ask for Spiperone or Chlorpromazine as simply an > > adjuvant to or remedy for SSRI. > > > > I'm hoping that one of us will soon find such an agent. > > > > I already know Nefazodone works so-so for this problem, but it has > > problems due to adrenoreceptor antagonism and very slight chance of > > liver toxicity. > > > > I should also post a retraction about Yohimbine HCL. According to > > Wikipedia it IS classified as a 5HT1A/B Antagonist, but there is no > > citation for this. When I Googled Yohimbine HCL on the internet, I > > find that Yohimbine HCL is only listed as a 5HT1A/B agonist, so now > > I'm not sure what to believe, but I apologize for passing along what > > could be incorrect info from Wikipedia. I felt some improvement from > > Yohimbine, but now I'm thinking it was entirely from the > > norepinepherine increase. > > > > In past posts, people have brought up MDMA as a possibility, but I > > just don't see that or Nefazodone for that matter as long term > > solutions or cures. MDMA is similar to amphetamine in that it boosts > > SERT /5HTT and oxytocin. In the short term, this increase in > > catecholamines may give you a feeling of heightened libido as does > > methylphenidate or adderall, but they may ultimately further down > > regulate our already marginal 5HT1A receptors causing even less > > sensitivity. > > > > Vornan, have you tried any sort of 5HT1 antagonist? > > > > C > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2008 Report Share Posted August 3, 2008 -I think taking antipsychotics to treat pssd is a bad idea. yes, some of them may block serotonin receptors, but they also block dopamine receptors and can cause permanent side effects like tardive dyskinesia and diabetes. vornan -- In SSRIsex , " mrmanguy84 " wrote: > > How about this one? > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olanzapine > > I ask because a doctor wanted to put me on Symbyax the other day. I'd > have tried it if it didn't have fluoxetine in it (the offending > medication in my case). But I could probably get Olanzapine as it's > similar. > > I'm not sure if it is involved in the receptors at hand or not - > anyone know? It seems to be in a similar class as the drugs you > mentioned though. > > -- Jon > > > > > > > > I want to start a new thread that focuses on 5HT1A/B receptor > > > blockade, because I think this is where our problem and solution > > > ultimately lie. > > > From the scientific abstracts I've read on the internet, SSRI's > > > downregulate 5HT1A postsynaptic receptors -among others- and that > > the > > > use of 5HT1A antagonists can restore receptor sensitivity/density. > > > > > > The problem we face is: What medication can we reasonably ask for > > that > > > will help our situation? Most 5HT1A antagonists are found in a class > > > of psych meds called neuroleptics or antipsychotic, antischizphrenic > > > drugs which usually have associated dopamine antagonist properties. > > > > > > It may be difficult for a patient suffering from SSRI induced sexual > > > dysfunction to ask for Spiperone or Chlorpromazine as simply an > > > adjuvant to or remedy for SSRI. > > > > > > I'm hoping that one of us will soon find such an agent. > > > > > > I already know Nefazodone works so-so for this problem, but it has > > > problems due to adrenoreceptor antagonism and very slight chance of > > > liver toxicity. > > > > > > I should also post a retraction about Yohimbine HCL. According to > > > Wikipedia it IS classified as a 5HT1A/B Antagonist, but there is no > > > citation for this. When I Googled Yohimbine HCL on the internet, I > > > find that Yohimbine HCL is only listed as a 5HT1A/B agonist, so now > > > I'm not sure what to believe, but I apologize for passing along what > > > could be incorrect info from Wikipedia. I felt some improvement from > > > Yohimbine, but now I'm thinking it was entirely from the > > > norepinepherine increase. > > > > > > In past posts, people have brought up MDMA as a possibility, but I > > > just don't see that or Nefazodone for that matter as long term > > > solutions or cures. MDMA is similar to amphetamine in that it boosts > > > SERT /5HTT and oxytocin. In the short term, this increase in > > > catecholamines may give you a feeling of heightened libido as does > > > methylphenidate or adderall, but they may ultimately further down > > > regulate our already marginal 5HT1A receptors causing even less > > > sensitivity. > > > > > > Vornan, have you tried any sort of 5HT1 antagonist? > > > > > > C > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2008 Report Share Posted August 3, 2008 This is true. On the other hand, I'm also more depressed and suicidal than ever. I'm not sure I have much to lose. All the doctors just want to treat the depression anyway... > > > > > > > > I want to start a new thread that focuses on 5HT1A/B receptor > > > > blockade, because I think this is where our problem and solution > > > > ultimately lie. > > > > From the scientific abstracts I've read on the internet, SSRI's > > > > downregulate 5HT1A postsynaptic receptors -among others- and that > > > the > > > > use of 5HT1A antagonists can restore receptor sensitivity/density. > > > > > > > > The problem we face is: What medication can we reasonably ask for > > > that > > > > will help our situation? Most 5HT1A antagonists are found in a class > > > > of psych meds called neuroleptics or antipsychotic, antischizphrenic > > > > drugs which usually have associated dopamine antagonist properties. > > > > > > > > It may be difficult for a patient suffering from SSRI induced sexual > > > > dysfunction to ask for Spiperone or Chlorpromazine as simply an > > > > adjuvant to or remedy for SSRI. > > > > > > > > I'm hoping that one of us will soon find such an agent. > > > > > > > > I already know Nefazodone works so-so for this problem, but it has > > > > problems due to adrenoreceptor antagonism and very slight chance of > > > > liver toxicity. > > > > > > > > I should also post a retraction about Yohimbine HCL. According to > > > > Wikipedia it IS classified as a 5HT1A/B Antagonist, but there is no > > > > citation for this. When I Googled Yohimbine HCL on the internet, I > > > > find that Yohimbine HCL is only listed as a 5HT1A/B agonist, so now > > > > I'm not sure what to believe, but I apologize for passing along what > > > > could be incorrect info from Wikipedia. I felt some improvement from > > > > Yohimbine, but now I'm thinking it was entirely from the > > > > norepinepherine increase. > > > > > > > > In past posts, people have brought up MDMA as a possibility, but I > > > > just don't see that or Nefazodone for that matter as long term > > > > solutions or cures. MDMA is similar to amphetamine in that it boosts > > > > SERT /5HTT and oxytocin. In the short term, this increase in > > > > catecholamines may give you a feeling of heightened libido as does > > > > methylphenidate or adderall, but they may ultimately further down > > > > regulate our already marginal 5HT1A receptors causing even less > > > > sensitivity. > > > > > > > > Vornan, have you tried any sort of 5HT1 antagonist? > > > > > > > > C > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 2008 Report Share Posted August 4, 2008 Vornan, This point is well taken. In fact, I just found an article that describes an experiment involving rat test subjects treated with both Fluoxetine and WAY100635 a very potent and selective 5HT1A antagonist: Here is an excerpt under the " Discussion " section at the end of abstract... " Two findings derive from the present study. First, a two-week treatment with a low fluoxetine dose desensitized 5-HT1A autoreceptors. Second, the 5-HT1A receptor antagonist WAY-100635 prevented this effect but did not sensitize nor up-regulated 5-HT1A autoreceptors when given alone or in combination with fluoxetine. These in vivo observations are important for the design of therapeutic strategies based on SSRI + 5-HT1A antagonist combinations. Several 5-HT1A receptor antagonists and dual action compounds are being developed. The present data suggest that withdrawal of such compounds would not result in a clinical relapse due to an exacerbation of the 5-HT1A autoreceptor-based negative feed-back that offsets the increase in 5-HT produced by SSRIs in forebrain. " See Full Article HERE: http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v24/n1/full/1395583a.html > > > > I want to start a new thread that focuses on 5HT1A/B receptor > > blockade, because I think this is where our problem and solution > > ultimately lie. > > From the scientific abstracts I've read on the internet, SSRI's > > downregulate 5HT1A postsynaptic receptors -among others- and that > the > > use of 5HT1A antagonists can restore receptor sensitivity/density. > > > > The problem we face is: What medication can we reasonably ask for > that > > will help our situation? Most 5HT1A antagonists are found in a class > > of psych meds called neuroleptics or antipsychotic, antischizphrenic > > drugs which usually have associated dopamine antagonist properties. > > > > It may be difficult for a patient suffering from SSRI induced sexual > > dysfunction to ask for Spiperone or Chlorpromazine as simply an > > adjuvant to or remedy for SSRI. > > > > I'm hoping that one of us will soon find such an agent. > > > > I already know Nefazodone works so-so for this problem, but it has > > problems due to adrenoreceptor antagonism and very slight chance of > > liver toxicity. > > > > I should also post a retraction about Yohimbine HCL. According to > > Wikipedia it IS classified as a 5HT1A/B Antagonist, but there is no > > citation for this. When I Googled Yohimbine HCL on the internet, I > > find that Yohimbine HCL is only listed as a 5HT1A/B agonist, so now > > I'm not sure what to believe, but I apologize for passing along what > > could be incorrect info from Wikipedia. I felt some improvement from > > Yohimbine, but now I'm thinking it was entirely from the > > norepinepherine increase. > > > > In past posts, people have brought up MDMA as a possibility, but I > > just don't see that or Nefazodone for that matter as long term > > solutions or cures. MDMA is similar to amphetamine in that it boosts > > SERT /5HTT and oxytocin. In the short term, this increase in > > catecholamines may give you a feeling of heightened libido as does > > methylphenidate or adderall, but they may ultimately further down > > regulate our already marginal 5HT1A receptors causing even less > > sensitivity. > > > > Vornan, have you tried any sort of 5HT1 antagonist? > > > > C > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 2008 Report Share Posted August 4, 2008 Anti-psychotics will probably make you even more depressed. They won't do a damn thing for PSSD, and cause worse side effects. Have you tried excersize and natural suppliments like SAM-E, forskolin, 5-HTP ? > > > > > > > > > > I want to start a new thread that focuses on 5HT1A/B receptor > > > > > blockade, because I think this is where our problem and solution > > > > > ultimately lie. > > > > > From the scientific abstracts I've read on the internet, SSRI's > > > > > downregulate 5HT1A postsynaptic receptors -among others- and that > > > > the > > > > > use of 5HT1A antagonists can restore receptor sensitivity/density. > > > > > > > > > > The problem we face is: What medication can we reasonably ask for > > > > that > > > > > will help our situation? Most 5HT1A antagonists are found in a > class > > > > > of psych meds called neuroleptics or antipsychotic, > antischizphrenic > > > > > drugs which usually have associated dopamine antagonist > properties. > > > > > > > > > > It may be difficult for a patient suffering from SSRI induced > sexual > > > > > dysfunction to ask for Spiperone or Chlorpromazine as simply an > > > > > adjuvant to or remedy for SSRI. > > > > > > > > > > I'm hoping that one of us will soon find such an agent. > > > > > > > > > > I already know Nefazodone works so-so for this problem, but it has > > > > > problems due to adrenoreceptor antagonism and very slight > chance of > > > > > liver toxicity. > > > > > > > > > > I should also post a retraction about Yohimbine HCL. According to > > > > > Wikipedia it IS classified as a 5HT1A/B Antagonist, but there > is no > > > > > citation for this. When I Googled Yohimbine HCL on the internet, I > > > > > find that Yohimbine HCL is only listed as a 5HT1A/B agonist, > so now > > > > > I'm not sure what to believe, but I apologize for passing > along what > > > > > could be incorrect info from Wikipedia. I felt some > improvement from > > > > > Yohimbine, but now I'm thinking it was entirely from the > > > > > norepinepherine increase. > > > > > > > > > > In past posts, people have brought up MDMA as a possibility, but I > > > > > just don't see that or Nefazodone for that matter as long term > > > > > solutions or cures. MDMA is similar to amphetamine in that it > boosts > > > > > SERT /5HTT and oxytocin. In the short term, this increase in > > > > > catecholamines may give you a feeling of heightened libido as does > > > > > methylphenidate or adderall, but they may ultimately further down > > > > > regulate our already marginal 5HT1A receptors causing even less > > > > > sensitivity. > > > > > > > > > > Vornan, have you tried any sort of 5HT1 antagonist? > > > > > > > > > > C > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 2008 Report Share Posted August 4, 2008 I brought up neuroleptics/anti-psychotics because they are the only medications I've seen that include 5HT1A/B antagonist activity as part of their function. Unfortunately, they also work as dopamine antagonists, so I doubt they would be very helpful if you didn't suffer from schizophrenia. I'm currently taking 10mg fluoxetine and 50mg nefazodone/day. By increasing the Fluoxetine dose to once a day from once every other day, I'm getting much better results than on either medication by itself. I do feel very good now and the sexual side effects have, so far, disappeared. Why this works I don't know. I see Fluoxetine supersensitizes 5HT2A/C receptors in the hypothalamus: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9439849 Nefazodone antagonizes 5HT2 so maybe it counteracts the supersensitization of fluoxetine: http://www.antidepressantsfacts.com/nefazodone3.htm (on above link scroll down to " 9.1 Pharmacology " ) I also see that fluoxetine desensitizes 5HT1A receptors here: http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/cgi/content/full/288/2/561 BUT...Nefazodone may compensate for fluoxetine's desensitizing of 5HT1A receptors: " It is speculated by some investigators that, combined with selective 5-HT reuptake inhibition, 5-HT2 receptor antagonism could facilitate 5-HT1A-mediated neurotransmission (Fontaine, 1992; Eison et al, 1990). This is supported to some degree by evidence of enhanced 5-HT1A-mediated behavioral responses during long-term nefazodone administration in animals (Eison et al, 1990). see the links below: http://www.antidepressantsfacts.com/nefazodone3.htm http://www.cnsforum.com/imagebank/item/Drug_nefaz_efficacy/default.aspx So while Nefazodne's antagonist action at 5HT2 counteracts Fluoxetine's sensitization of these receptors in the hypothalamus, it may also cause indirect enhancement of the 5HT1 receptor which would ordinarily be desensitized by Fluoxetine. I feel pretty good on what I'm taking, but maybe I/we should be looking at 5HT2 antagonists and 5HT1 agonists or ideally a combination of the two. By the way, here is a link to a PDF detailing the 3 cases of liver failure that lead to the withdrawal of Serzone (the old brand name of Generic Nefazodone): http://www.annals.org/cgi/reprint/130/4_Part_1/285.pdf > > > > > > > > > > > > I want to start a new thread that focuses on 5HT1A/B receptor > > > > > > blockade, because I think this is where our problem and solution > > > > > > ultimately lie. > > > > > > From the scientific abstracts I've read on the internet, SSRI's > > > > > > downregulate 5HT1A postsynaptic receptors -among others- and > that > > > > > the > > > > > > use of 5HT1A antagonists can restore receptor > sensitivity/density. > > > > > > > > > > > > The problem we face is: What medication can we reasonably > ask for > > > > > that > > > > > > will help our situation? Most 5HT1A antagonists are found in a > > class > > > > > > of psych meds called neuroleptics or antipsychotic, > > antischizphrenic > > > > > > drugs which usually have associated dopamine antagonist > > properties. > > > > > > > > > > > > It may be difficult for a patient suffering from SSRI induced > > sexual > > > > > > dysfunction to ask for Spiperone or Chlorpromazine as simply an > > > > > > adjuvant to or remedy for SSRI. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm hoping that one of us will soon find such an agent. > > > > > > > > > > > > I already know Nefazodone works so-so for this problem, but > it has > > > > > > problems due to adrenoreceptor antagonism and very slight > > chance of > > > > > > liver toxicity. > > > > > > > > > > > > I should also post a retraction about Yohimbine HCL. > According to > > > > > > Wikipedia it IS classified as a 5HT1A/B Antagonist, but there > > is no > > > > > > citation for this. When I Googled Yohimbine HCL on the > internet, I > > > > > > find that Yohimbine HCL is only listed as a 5HT1A/B agonist, > > so now > > > > > > I'm not sure what to believe, but I apologize for passing > > along what > > > > > > could be incorrect info from Wikipedia. I felt some > > improvement from > > > > > > Yohimbine, but now I'm thinking it was entirely from the > > > > > > norepinepherine increase. > > > > > > > > > > > > In past posts, people have brought up MDMA as a possibility, > but I > > > > > > just don't see that or Nefazodone for that matter as long term > > > > > > solutions or cures. MDMA is similar to amphetamine in that it > > boosts > > > > > > SERT /5HTT and oxytocin. In the short term, this increase in > > > > > > catecholamines may give you a feeling of heightened libido > as does > > > > > > methylphenidate or adderall, but they may ultimately further > down > > > > > > regulate our already marginal 5HT1A receptors causing even less > > > > > > sensitivity. > > > > > > > > > > > > Vornan, have you tried any sort of 5HT1 antagonist? > > > > > > > > > > > > C > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 2008 Report Share Posted August 4, 2008 Interesting. Hadn't seen the first reference before (the one about supersensitization of 5HT2A/C by fluoxetine). That goes along with what I what I was postulating yesterday. So, maybe we are both correct! Indeed, it seems like SSRIs may desensitize some receptors (e.g. 5HT1A) and hypersensitize others (e.g. 5HT2)... From what I've gathered, 5HT1A is an autoreceptor...in other words it's presynaptic, and located on the part of the synapse that's sending the serotonin signal. 5HT2 receptors, on the other hand, appear to be mostly postsynaptic, and receive the serotonin signal. So maybe the presynaptic receptors are desensitized and the postsynaptic receptors are hypersensitized. That might explain some of the amgigous data in the literature and also partly explain why PSSD is so hard to treat. Also interesting that this particular fluoxetine/nefazodone combination is working for you. I wonder how well this would work for other people? But as you say, it might be better to go with a 5HT1A agonist/5HT2 antagonist combination. Did you have any trepidation about going back on an SSRI before you took Prozac? Vornan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I want to start a new thread that focuses on 5HT1A/B receptor > > > > > > > blockade, because I think this is where our problem and > solution > > > > > > > ultimately lie. > > > > > > > From the scientific abstracts I've read on the internet, > SSRI's > > > > > > > downregulate 5HT1A postsynaptic receptors -among others- and > > that > > > > > > the > > > > > > > use of 5HT1A antagonists can restore receptor > > sensitivity/density. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The problem we face is: What medication can we reasonably > > ask for > > > > > > that > > > > > > > will help our situation? Most 5HT1A antagonists are found in a > > > class > > > > > > > of psych meds called neuroleptics or antipsychotic, > > > antischizphrenic > > > > > > > drugs which usually have associated dopamine antagonist > > > properties. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It may be difficult for a patient suffering from SSRI induced > > > sexual > > > > > > > dysfunction to ask for Spiperone or Chlorpromazine as > simply an > > > > > > > adjuvant to or remedy for SSRI. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm hoping that one of us will soon find such an agent. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I already know Nefazodone works so-so for this problem, but > > it has > > > > > > > problems due to adrenoreceptor antagonism and very slight > > > chance of > > > > > > > liver toxicity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I should also post a retraction about Yohimbine HCL. > > According to > > > > > > > Wikipedia it IS classified as a 5HT1A/B Antagonist, but there > > > is no > > > > > > > citation for this. When I Googled Yohimbine HCL on the > > internet, I > > > > > > > find that Yohimbine HCL is only listed as a 5HT1A/B agonist, > > > so now > > > > > > > I'm not sure what to believe, but I apologize for passing > > > along what > > > > > > > could be incorrect info from Wikipedia. I felt some > > > improvement from > > > > > > > Yohimbine, but now I'm thinking it was entirely from the > > > > > > > norepinepherine increase. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In past posts, people have brought up MDMA as a possibility, > > but I > > > > > > > just don't see that or Nefazodone for that matter as long term > > > > > > > solutions or cures. MDMA is similar to amphetamine in that it > > > boosts > > > > > > > SERT /5HTT and oxytocin. In the short term, this increase in > > > > > > > catecholamines may give you a feeling of heightened libido > > as does > > > > > > > methylphenidate or adderall, but they may ultimately further > > down > > > > > > > regulate our already marginal 5HT1A receptors causing even > less > > > > > > > sensitivity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vornan, have you tried any sort of 5HT1 antagonist? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > C > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 2008 Report Share Posted August 4, 2008 ....no, I've just seen reference to postsynaptic and presynaptic 5HT1 receptors, so apparently they can be both. Presumably the SSRI effect must be specific to each individual receptor subtype. Strange. Vornan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I want to start a new thread that focuses on 5HT1A/B > receptor > > > > > > > > blockade, because I think this is where our problem and > > solution > > > > > > > > ultimately lie. > > > > > > > > From the scientific abstracts I've read on the internet, > > SSRI's > > > > > > > > downregulate 5HT1A postsynaptic receptors -among others- > and > > > that > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > use of 5HT1A antagonists can restore receptor > > > sensitivity/density. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The problem we face is: What medication can we > reasonably > > > ask for > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > will help our situation? Most 5HT1A antagonists are > found in a > > > > class > > > > > > > > of psych meds called neuroleptics or antipsychotic, > > > > antischizphrenic > > > > > > > > drugs which usually have associated dopamine antagonist > > > > properties. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It may be difficult for a patient suffering from SSRI > induced > > > > sexual > > > > > > > > dysfunction to ask for Spiperone or Chlorpromazine as > > simply an > > > > > > > > adjuvant to or remedy for SSRI. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm hoping that one of us will soon find such an agent. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I already know Nefazodone works so-so for this problem, > but > > > it has > > > > > > > > problems due to adrenoreceptor antagonism and very > slight > > > > chance of > > > > > > > > liver toxicity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I should also post a retraction about Yohimbine HCL. > > > According to > > > > > > > > Wikipedia it IS classified as a 5HT1A/B Antagonist, but > there > > > > is no > > > > > > > > citation for this. When I Googled Yohimbine HCL on the > > > internet, I > > > > > > > > find that Yohimbine HCL is only listed as a 5HT1A/B > agonist, > > > > so now > > > > > > > > I'm not sure what to believe, but I apologize for > passing > > > > along what > > > > > > > > could be incorrect info from Wikipedia. I felt some > > > > improvement from > > > > > > > > Yohimbine, but now I'm thinking it was entirely from the > > > > > > > > norepinepherine increase. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In past posts, people have brought up MDMA as a > possibility, > > > but I > > > > > > > > just don't see that or Nefazodone for that matter as > long term > > > > > > > > solutions or cures. MDMA is similar to amphetamine in > that it > > > > boosts > > > > > > > > SERT /5HTT and oxytocin. In the short term, this > increase in > > > > > > > > catecholamines may give you a feeling of heightened > libido > > > as does > > > > > > > > methylphenidate or adderall, but they may ultimately > further > > > down > > > > > > > > regulate our already marginal 5HT1A receptors causing > even > > less > > > > > > > > sensitivity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vornan, have you tried any sort of 5HT1 antagonist? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > C > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 5, 2008 Report Share Posted August 5, 2008 Vornan, In answer to your question regarding nefazodone/prozac combination, I felt no trepidation in resuming Prozac. After using the Nefazodone by itself for two weeks, its therapeutic action diminished and I felt libido loss and physically flat, dulled. I figured I had nothing to to lose by trying one 10mg dose and it did the trick. I continued to take Prozac every 2-3 days while taking 50mg nefazodone daily. Afer a month, this combination ceased to work as well, so now I'm taking prozac daily and nefazodone every other day and that works really well for me. Its pure speculation, but maybe the Nefazodone creates long lasting changes to serotonin receptors in the same manner that fluoxetine does. That may account for the shift in dosage balance... C > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I want to start a new thread that focuses on 5HT1A/B > > receptor > > > > > > > > > blockade, because I think this is where our problem > and > > > solution > > > > > > > > > ultimately lie. > > > > > > > > > From the scientific abstracts I've read on the > internet, > > > SSRI's > > > > > > > > > downregulate 5HT1A postsynaptic receptors -among > others- > > and > > > > that > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > use of 5HT1A antagonists can restore receptor > > > > sensitivity/density. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The problem we face is: What medication can we > > reasonably > > > > ask for > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > will help our situation? Most 5HT1A antagonists are > > found in a > > > > > class > > > > > > > > > of psych meds called neuroleptics or antipsychotic, > > > > > antischizphrenic > > > > > > > > > drugs which usually have associated dopamine > antagonist > > > > > properties. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It may be difficult for a patient suffering from SSRI > > induced > > > > > sexual > > > > > > > > > dysfunction to ask for Spiperone or Chlorpromazine as > > > simply an > > > > > > > > > adjuvant to or remedy for SSRI. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm hoping that one of us will soon find such an > agent. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I already know Nefazodone works so-so for this > problem, > > but > > > > it has > > > > > > > > > problems due to adrenoreceptor antagonism and very > > slight > > > > > chance of > > > > > > > > > liver toxicity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I should also post a retraction about Yohimbine HCL. > > > > According to > > > > > > > > > Wikipedia it IS classified as a 5HT1A/B Antagonist, > but > > there > > > > > is no > > > > > > > > > citation for this. When I Googled Yohimbine HCL on the > > > > internet, I > > > > > > > > > find that Yohimbine HCL is only listed as a 5HT1A/B > > agonist, > > > > > so now > > > > > > > > > I'm not sure what to believe, but I apologize for > > passing > > > > > along what > > > > > > > > > could be incorrect info from Wikipedia. I felt some > > > > > improvement from > > > > > > > > > Yohimbine, but now I'm thinking it was entirely from > the > > > > > > > > > norepinepherine increase. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In past posts, people have brought up MDMA as a > > possibility, > > > > but I > > > > > > > > > just don't see that or Nefazodone for that matter as > > long term > > > > > > > > > solutions or cures. MDMA is similar to amphetamine in > > that it > > > > > boosts > > > > > > > > > SERT /5HTT and oxytocin. In the short term, this > > increase in > > > > > > > > > catecholamines may give you a feeling of heightened > > libido > > > > as does > > > > > > > > > methylphenidate or adderall, but they may ultimately > > further > > > > down > > > > > > > > > regulate our already marginal 5HT1A receptors causing > > even > > > less > > > > > > > > > sensitivity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vornan, have you tried any sort of 5HT1 antagonist? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > C > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 2008 Report Share Posted August 6, 2008 flibanserin is a combined 5ht2 antagonist and 5ht1 agonist currently in clinical trials for sexual dysfunction. if what you are saying is true, it should work pretty well... > I feel pretty good on what I'm taking, but maybe I/we should be > looking at 5HT2 antagonists and 5HT1 agonists or ideally a combination > of the two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 7, 2008 Report Share Posted August 7, 2008 Trazadone is a 5HT2 antagonist. Do you think a trazadone/nefazadone combination would be indicated?Subject: Re: 5HT1A /B AntagonistsTo: SSRIsex Date: Tuesday, August 5, 2008, 12:41 AM Interesting. Hadn't seen the first reference before (the one about supersensitization of 5HT2A/C by fluoxetine). That goes along with what I what I was postulating yesterday. So, maybe we are both correct! Indeed, it seems like SSRIs may desensitize some receptors (e.g. 5HT1A) and hypersensitize others (e.g. 5HT2)... From what I've gathered, 5HT1A is an autoreceptor. ..in other words it's presynaptic, and located on the part of the synapse that's sending the serotonin signal. 5HT2 receptors, on the other hand, appear to be mostly postsynaptic, and receive the serotonin signal. So maybe the presynaptic receptors are desensitized and the postsynaptic receptors are hypersensitized. That might explain some of the amgigous data in the literature and also partly explain why PSSD is so hard to treat. Also interesting that this particular fluoxetine/nefazodo ne combination is working for you. I wonder how well this would work for other people? But as you say, it might be better to go with a 5HT1A agonist/5HT2 antagonist combination. Did you have any trepidation about going back on an SSRI before you took Prozac? Vornan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I want to start a new thread that focuses on 5HT1A/B receptor > > > > > > > blockade, because I think this is where our problem and > solution > > > > > > > ultimately lie. > > > > > > > From the scientific abstracts I've read on the internet, > SSRI's > > > > > > > downregulate 5HT1A postsynaptic receptors -among others- and > > that > > > > > > the > > > > > > > use of 5HT1A antagonists can restore receptor > > sensitivity/ density. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The problem we face is: What medication can we reasonably > > ask for > > > > > > that > > > > > > > will help our situation? Most 5HT1A antagonists are found in a > > > class > > > > > > > of psych meds called neuroleptics or antipsychotic, > > > antischizphrenic > > > > > > > drugs which usually have associated dopamine antagonist > > > properties. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It may be difficult for a patient suffering from SSRI induced > > > sexual > > > > > > > dysfunction to ask for Spiperone or Chlorpromazine as > simply an > > > > > > > adjuvant to or remedy for SSRI. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm hoping that one of us will soon find such an agent. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I already know Nefazodone works so-so for this problem, but > > it has > > > > > > > problems due to adrenoreceptor antagonism and very slight > > > chance of > > > > > > > liver toxicity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I should also post a retraction about Yohimbine HCL. > > According to > > > > > > > Wikipedia it IS classified as a 5HT1A/B Antagonist, but there > > > is no > > > > > > > citation for this. When I Googled Yohimbine HCL on the > > internet, I > > > > > > > find that Yohimbine HCL is only listed as a 5HT1A/B agonist, > > > so now > > > > > > > I'm not sure what to believe, but I apologize for passing > > > along what > > > > > > > could be incorrect info from Wikipedia. I felt some > > > improvement from > > > > > > > Yohimbine, but now I'm thinking it was entirely from the > > > > > > > norepinepherine increase. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In past posts, people have brought up MDMA as a possibility, > > but I > > > > > > > just don't see that or Nefazodone for that matter as long term > > > > > > > solutions or cures. MDMA is similar to amphetamine in that it > > > boosts > > > > > > > SERT /5HTT and oxytocin. In the short term, this increase in > > > > > > > catecholamines may give you a feeling of heightened libido > > as does > > > > > > > methylphenidate or adderall, but they may ultimately further > > down > > > > > > > regulate our already marginal 5HT1A receptors causing even > less > > > > > > > sensitivity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vornan, have you tried any sort of 5HT1 antagonist? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > C > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2008 Report Share Posted August 8, 2008 It is good to read that you are willing to continue the fight. I am a 52 y/old female. After several years of 80mg a day Prozac, it has been a long jouney. I started seeing a Doc who prescribed Testosterone for women affected by anti depressants. It works. After testing my hormone levels. My level of Testos was almost not on the chart. It takes an on going treatment, not just one shot, to make the libido stand up and take notice! When it did start to work it was like an old friend that you had missed for a long time had come over to stay as long as he or she was fed. Also DHEA was very depleted. It is a precursor to Testos. Maybe an ongoing treatment for men would work the same way. The doc see's men and women from all over the world. He also treats couples. I also agree that now is NOT the time to be looking for a relationship. You need friends, true friends. The girl that you were starting to see who took off is not looking for the stable family life that you desire. There are a lot of party people out there. For various reasons they need to score to feel worthy. That same type [once he or she knows she's got you] usually has such low self esteem, they think anyone who could fall for me is worthless because I know I am worthless. It can be SO painful because you think that everyone thinks just like you, but they don't. At 23 play time is starting to take on some changes. You are mentally maybe 32 or so. Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding. If you are feeling negative things and thoughts, remind your self that these thoughts are not from GOD. I hope that my notes to you are helpful. Many of us here care even if they don't write. We are all given different gifts. I believe there is a family waiting to be born for you and a wife who loves you. But not right now. Keep writing and let us know how you are. Judy Deese Re: 5HT1A /B Antagonists http://yahoo.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/dec2006/db20061228_315249.htmAccording to this, it often works for women but not men with lowlibido. Weird. Maybe it could still work for PSSD, though, as that'shardly the 'normal' man.Makes me wonder if some women have something like PSSD withoutanti-depressants at all.Is this drug available already? I see that it's in trials for a libidopurpose, but I can't tell if it was already available for somethingelse. Also, is Nefazodone available in the US? How could I get either?-- Jon>> flibanserin is a combined 5ht2 antagonist and 5ht1 agonist currentlyin clinical trials for sexual dysfunction. if what you are saying istrue, it should work pretty well...> > > I feel pretty good on what I'm taking, but maybe I/we should be> > looking at 5HT2 antagonists and 5HT1 agonists or ideally a combination> > of the two.> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2008 Report Share Posted August 8, 2008 Judy, where is this doctor? What country/city?Subject: Re: Re: 5HT1A /B AntagonistsTo: SSRIsex Date: Friday, August 8, 2008, 10:15 PM It is good to read that you are willing to continue the fight. I am a 52 y/old female. After several years of 80mg a day Prozac, it has been a long jouney. I started seeing a Doc who prescribed Testosterone for women affected by anti depressants. It works. After testing my hormone levels. My level of Testos was almost not on the chart. It takes an on going treatment, not just one shot, to make the libido stand up and take notice! When it did start to work it was like an old friend that you had missed for a long time had come over to stay as long as he or she was fed. Also DHEA was very depleted. It is a precursor to Testos. Maybe an ongoing treatment for men would work the same way. The doc see's men and women from all over the world. He also treats couples. I also agree that now is NOT the time to be looking for a relationship. You need friends, true friends. The girl that you were starting to see who took off is not looking for the stable family life that you desire. There are a lot of party people out there. For various reasons they need to score to feel worthy. That same type [once he or she knows she's got you] usually has such low self esteem, they think anyone who could fall for me is worthless because I know I am worthless. It can be SO painful because you think that everyone thinks just like you, but they don't. At 23 play time is starting to take on some changes. You are mentally maybe 32 or so. Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding. If you are feeling negative things and thoughts, remind your self that these thoughts are not from GOD. I hope that my notes to you are helpful. Many of us here care even if they don't write. We are all given different gifts. I believe there is a family waiting to be born for you and a wife who loves you. But not right now. Keep writing and let us know how you are. Judy Deese Re: 5HT1A /B Antagonists http://yahoo. businessweek. com/bwdaily/ dnflash/content/ dec2006/db200612 28_315249. htmAccording to this, it often works for women but not men with lowlibido. Weird. Maybe it could still work for PSSD, though, as that'shardly the 'normal' man.Makes me wonder if some women have something like PSSD withoutanti-depressants at all.Is this drug available already? I see that it's in trials for a libidopurpose, but I can't tell if it was already available for somethingelse. Also, is Nefazodone available in the US? How could I get either?-- Jon>> flibanserin is a combined 5ht2 antagonist and 5ht1 agonist currentlyin clinical trials for sexual dysfunction. if what you are saying istrue, it should work pretty well...> > > I feel pretty good on what I'm taking, but maybe I/we should be> > looking at 5HT2 antagonists and 5HT1 agonists or ideally a combination> > of the two.> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 2008 Report Share Posted August 9, 2008 He is in Tampa Florida US. Can I name names here ? Judy Deese Re: 5HT1A /B Antagonists http://yahoo. businessweek. com/bwdaily/ dnflash/content/ dec2006/db200612 28_315249. htmAccording to this, it often works for women but not men with lowlibido. Weird. Maybe it could still work for PSSD, though, as that'shardly the 'normal' man.Makes me wonder if some women have something like PSSD withoutanti-depressants at all.Is this drug available already? I see that it's in trials for a libidopurpose, but I can't tell if it was already available for somethingelse. Also, is Nefazodone available in the US? How could I get either?-- Jon>> flibanserin is a combined 5ht2 antagonist and 5ht1 agonist currentlyin clinical trials for sexual dysfunction. if what you are saying istrue, it should work pretty well...> > > I feel pretty good on what I'm taking, but maybe I/we should be> > looking at 5HT2 antagonists and 5HT1 agonists or ideally a combination> > of the two.> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 2008 Report Share Posted August 12, 2008 I doubt it will work. The 5ht receptors don't have such a hugely bad effect on libido as people in the group often express. For instance, my best experiences were with MDMA and sleep depriation (both of which probably raised serum serotonin levels). I had previously read that the inability to cry and emotional blunting during major depression may be caused predominantly by changes in brain states which regulate emotions as opposed to monoamine expression. SSRIs worsen the said inability to cry, emotional blunting and sexual dysfunction. Most people taking SSRIs do not have problems on the same level as us, although they do have significant stimulation of 5ht1 receptors. I do not think there is any reason to believe that PSSD is caused by the 5ht1 receptors, or indeed dopamine levels etc. You can try it if you want; there is a herb which blocks serotonin, would you like me to find out what it is called for you? > > I want to start a new thread that focuses on 5HT1A/B receptor > blockade, because I think this is where our problem and solution > ultimately lie. > From the scientific abstracts I've read on the internet, SSRI's > downregulate 5HT1A postsynaptic receptors -among others- and that the > use of 5HT1A antagonists can restore receptor sensitivity/density. > > The problem we face is: What medication can we reasonably ask for that > will help our situation? Most 5HT1A antagonists are found in a class > of psych meds called neuroleptics or antipsychotic, antischizphrenic > drugs which usually have associated dopamine antagonist properties. > > It may be difficult for a patient suffering from SSRI induced sexual > dysfunction to ask for Spiperone or Chlorpromazine as simply an > adjuvant to or remedy for SSRI. > > I'm hoping that one of us will soon find such an agent. > > I already know Nefazodone works so-so for this problem, but it has > problems due to adrenoreceptor antagonism and very slight chance of > liver toxicity. > > I should also post a retraction about Yohimbine HCL. According to > Wikipedia it IS classified as a 5HT1A/B Antagonist, but there is no > citation for this. When I Googled Yohimbine HCL on the internet, I > find that Yohimbine HCL is only listed as a 5HT1A/B agonist, so now > I'm not sure what to believe, but I apologize for passing along what > could be incorrect info from Wikipedia. I felt some improvement from > Yohimbine, but now I'm thinking it was entirely from the > norepinepherine increase. > > In past posts, people have brought up MDMA as a possibility, but I > just don't see that or Nefazodone for that matter as long term > solutions or cures. MDMA is similar to amphetamine in that it boosts > SERT /5HTT and oxytocin. In the short term, this increase in > catecholamines may give you a feeling of heightened libido as does > methylphenidate or adderall, but they may ultimately further down > regulate our already marginal 5HT1A receptors causing even less > sensitivity. > > Vornan, have you tried any sort of 5HT1 antagonist? > > C > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 2008 Report Share Posted August 12, 2008 You said the herb blocks Serotonin. Does it block 5HT1A specifically? In any case, please tell me the name of this herb. I might give it a try. Thanks. > > > > I want to start a new thread that focuses on 5HT1A/B receptor > > blockade, because I think this is where our problem and solution > > ultimately lie. > > From the scientific abstracts I've read on the internet, SSRI's > > downregulate 5HT1A postsynaptic receptors -among others- and that > the > > use of 5HT1A antagonists can restore receptor sensitivity/density. > > > > The problem we face is: What medication can we reasonably ask for > that > > will help our situation? Most 5HT1A antagonists are found in a class > > of psych meds called neuroleptics or antipsychotic, antischizphrenic > > drugs which usually have associated dopamine antagonist properties. > > > > It may be difficult for a patient suffering from SSRI induced sexual > > dysfunction to ask for Spiperone or Chlorpromazine as simply an > > adjuvant to or remedy for SSRI. > > > > I'm hoping that one of us will soon find such an agent. > > > > I already know Nefazodone works so-so for this problem, but it has > > problems due to adrenoreceptor antagonism and very slight chance of > > liver toxicity. > > > > I should also post a retraction about Yohimbine HCL. According to > > Wikipedia it IS classified as a 5HT1A/B Antagonist, but there is no > > citation for this. When I Googled Yohimbine HCL on the internet, I > > find that Yohimbine HCL is only listed as a 5HT1A/B agonist, so now > > I'm not sure what to believe, but I apologize for passing along what > > could be incorrect info from Wikipedia. I felt some improvement from > > Yohimbine, but now I'm thinking it was entirely from the > > norepinepherine increase. > > > > In past posts, people have brought up MDMA as a possibility, but I > > just don't see that or Nefazodone for that matter as long term > > solutions or cures. MDMA is similar to amphetamine in that it boosts > > SERT /5HTT and oxytocin. In the short term, this increase in > > catecholamines may give you a feeling of heightened libido as does > > methylphenidate or adderall, but they may ultimately further down > > regulate our already marginal 5HT1A receptors causing even less > > sensitivity. > > > > Vornan, have you tried any sort of 5HT1 antagonist? > > > > C > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 2008 Report Share Posted August 15, 2008 It is called feverfew. It won't work very well in my opinion, but I think it is easy to get hold of. It blocks serotonin synthesis completely. It upregulates 5ht2c receptors (which maximizes erections). It does not upregulate 5ht1a/5ht1b receptors. Yohimbine blocks 5ht1 receptors. But as your theory is completely wrong this will make little overall difference. > > > > > > I want to start a new thread that focuses on 5HT1A/B receptor > > > blockade, because I think this is where our problem and solution > > > ultimately lie. > > > From the scientific abstracts I've read on the internet, SSRI's > > > downregulate 5HT1A postsynaptic receptors -among others- and that > > the > > > use of 5HT1A antagonists can restore receptor sensitivity/density. > > > > > > The problem we face is: What medication can we reasonably ask for > > that > > > will help our situation? Most 5HT1A antagonists are found in a class > > > of psych meds called neuroleptics or antipsychotic, antischizphrenic > > > drugs which usually have associated dopamine antagonist properties. > > > > > > It may be difficult for a patient suffering from SSRI induced sexual > > > dysfunction to ask for Spiperone or Chlorpromazine as simply an > > > adjuvant to or remedy for SSRI. > > > > > > I'm hoping that one of us will soon find such an agent. > > > > > > I already know Nefazodone works so-so for this problem, but it has > > > problems due to adrenoreceptor antagonism and very slight chance of > > > liver toxicity. > > > > > > I should also post a retraction about Yohimbine HCL. According to > > > Wikipedia it IS classified as a 5HT1A/B Antagonist, but there is no > > > citation for this. When I Googled Yohimbine HCL on the internet, I > > > find that Yohimbine HCL is only listed as a 5HT1A/B agonist, so now > > > I'm not sure what to believe, but I apologize for passing along what > > > could be incorrect info from Wikipedia. I felt some improvement from > > > Yohimbine, but now I'm thinking it was entirely from the > > > norepinepherine increase. > > > > > > In past posts, people have brought up MDMA as a possibility, but I > > > just don't see that or Nefazodone for that matter as long term > > > solutions or cures. MDMA is similar to amphetamine in that it boosts > > > SERT /5HTT and oxytocin. In the short term, this increase in > > > catecholamines may give you a feeling of heightened libido as does > > > methylphenidate or adderall, but they may ultimately further down > > > regulate our already marginal 5HT1A receptors causing even less > > > sensitivity. > > > > > > Vornan, have you tried any sort of 5HT1 antagonist? > > > > > > C > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 2008 Report Share Posted August 15, 2008 PSSD24 please cite your source regarding Yohimbine. If your source is Wikipedia. Its completely wrong. See the following citations indicating Yohimbine Hcl as a 5HT1A Agonist. I doubt it blocks 5HT1A: citation 1 http://grande.nal.usda.gov/ibids/index.php?mode2=detail & origin=ibids_references & \ therow=175063 citation 2 http://grande.nal.usda.gov/ibids/index.php?mode2=detail & origin=ibids_references & \ therow=342716 citation 3 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1683291 I found out about Feverfew 3 days ago and it is already working somewhat. If someone were only concerned with the residual feelings of genital anesthesia and didn't want to take nefazodone, I would recommend it. It is an herb, so its Parthenolide concentration is weak enough that it could be harmless to try. Despite yourself, you happened upon something with some use. > > > > > > > > I want to start a new thread that focuses on 5HT1A/B receptor > > > > blockade, because I think this is where our problem and solution > > > > ultimately lie. > > > > From the scientific abstracts I've read on the internet, SSRI's > > > > downregulate 5HT1A postsynaptic receptors -among others- and > that > > > the > > > > use of 5HT1A antagonists can restore receptor > sensitivity/density. > > > > > > > > The problem we face is: What medication can we reasonably ask > for > > > that > > > > will help our situation? Most 5HT1A antagonists are found in a > class > > > > of psych meds called neuroleptics or antipsychotic, > antischizphrenic > > > > drugs which usually have associated dopamine antagonist > properties. > > > > > > > > It may be difficult for a patient suffering from SSRI induced > sexual > > > > dysfunction to ask for Spiperone or Chlorpromazine as simply an > > > > adjuvant to or remedy for SSRI. > > > > > > > > I'm hoping that one of us will soon find such an agent. > > > > > > > > I already know Nefazodone works so-so for this problem, but it > has > > > > problems due to adrenoreceptor antagonism and very slight > chance of > > > > liver toxicity. > > > > > > > > I should also post a retraction about Yohimbine HCL. According > to > > > > Wikipedia it IS classified as a 5HT1A/B Antagonist, but there > is no > > > > citation for this. When I Googled Yohimbine HCL on the > internet, I > > > > find that Yohimbine HCL is only listed as a 5HT1A/B agonist, so > now > > > > I'm not sure what to believe, but I apologize for passing along > what > > > > could be incorrect info from Wikipedia. I felt some improvement > from > > > > Yohimbine, but now I'm thinking it was entirely from the > > > > norepinepherine increase. > > > > > > > > In past posts, people have brought up MDMA as a possibility, > but I > > > > just don't see that or Nefazodone for that matter as long term > > > > solutions or cures. MDMA is similar to amphetamine in that it > boosts > > > > SERT /5HTT and oxytocin. In the short term, this increase in > > > > catecholamines may give you a feeling of heightened libido as > does > > > > methylphenidate or adderall, but they may ultimately further > down > > > > regulate our already marginal 5HT1A receptors causing even less > > > > sensitivity. > > > > > > > > Vornan, have you tried any sort of 5HT1 antagonist? > > > > > > > > C > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 2008 Report Share Posted August 16, 2008 I had already suggested that it would have " some use. " Your T levels will probably go up and your dopamine levels might go up a bit. It is recommended for libido, I suggested that some time ago. Just because it is a herb does not mean that it is safe. Blocking serotonin for a long time can cause oxidative stress in the brain and stops new neuronal growth, and also causes digestive problems, cardiovascular problems, sleep problems etc. Are you feeling more tired or more awake? I would suggest that this is more worthwhile than using a 5ht1 antagonist (which increases serotonin levels due to negative feedback action of 5ht1a receptors). However if there is no " dramatic change " in the long term, compared to testosterone, then I would suggest once and for all that PSSD is a problem with androgens and androgen receptors in the prostate etc. Nefazadone probably exerts many of its effects by blocking alpha receptors. > > > > > > > > > > I want to start a new thread that focuses on 5HT1A/B receptor > > > > > blockade, because I think this is where our problem and solution > > > > > ultimately lie. > > > > > From the scientific abstracts I've read on the internet, SSRI's > > > > > downregulate 5HT1A postsynaptic receptors -among others- and > > that > > > > the > > > > > use of 5HT1A antagonists can restore receptor > > sensitivity/density. > > > > > > > > > > The problem we face is: What medication can we reasonably ask > > for > > > > that > > > > > will help our situation? Most 5HT1A antagonists are found in a > > class > > > > > of psych meds called neuroleptics or antipsychotic, > > antischizphrenic > > > > > drugs which usually have associated dopamine antagonist > > properties. > > > > > > > > > > It may be difficult for a patient suffering from SSRI induced > > sexual > > > > > dysfunction to ask for Spiperone or Chlorpromazine as simply an > > > > > adjuvant to or remedy for SSRI. > > > > > > > > > > I'm hoping that one of us will soon find such an agent. > > > > > > > > > > I already know Nefazodone works so-so for this problem, but it > > has > > > > > problems due to adrenoreceptor antagonism and very slight > > chance of > > > > > liver toxicity. > > > > > > > > > > I should also post a retraction about Yohimbine HCL. According > > to > > > > > Wikipedia it IS classified as a 5HT1A/B Antagonist, but there > > is no > > > > > citation for this. When I Googled Yohimbine HCL on the > > internet, I > > > > > find that Yohimbine HCL is only listed as a 5HT1A/B agonist, so > > now > > > > > I'm not sure what to believe, but I apologize for passing along > > what > > > > > could be incorrect info from Wikipedia. I felt some improvement > > from > > > > > Yohimbine, but now I'm thinking it was entirely from the > > > > > norepinepherine increase. > > > > > > > > > > In past posts, people have brought up MDMA as a possibility, > > but I > > > > > just don't see that or Nefazodone for that matter as long term > > > > > solutions or cures. MDMA is similar to amphetamine in that it > > boosts > > > > > SERT /5HTT and oxytocin. In the short term, this increase in > > > > > catecholamines may give you a feeling of heightened libido as > > does > > > > > methylphenidate or adderall, but they may ultimately further > > down > > > > > regulate our already marginal 5HT1A receptors causing even less > > > > > sensitivity. > > > > > > > > > > Vornan, have you tried any sort of 5HT1 antagonist? > > > > > > > > > > C > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 2008 Report Share Posted August 16, 2008 Why would you have believed it would have some use in treating PSSD if PSSD is caused by androgens and androgen recptors? I think your androgen/androgen receptor idea is completely missing the central issue here, unless you concede the role of elevated 5HT in all this. High levels of serotonin cause inhibition of luteinizing hormone release in the pituitary. SSRI's cause an increase in serotonin thus interfering with the hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis. Normally the hypothalamus senses low testosterone and triggers the pituitary via GnRH to produce LH. SSRI's stop this from happening probably via both over sensitizing 5HT2A and desenstizing 5HT1A. Feverfew may act as an indirect antagonist on all 5HT receptors due to its inhibition of serotonin secretion. I stopped nefazodone with prozac 4 days ago whileonly taking 500-1000mg of feverfew/day. Today I feel great, so either the meds are responsible or the herb is having a more pronounced effect than I thought. > > > > > > > > > > > > I want to start a new thread that focuses on 5HT1A/B > receptor > > > > > > blockade, because I think this is where our problem and > solution > > > > > > ultimately lie. > > > > > > From the scientific abstracts I've read on the internet, > SSRI's > > > > > > downregulate 5HT1A postsynaptic receptors -among others- > and > > > that > > > > > the > > > > > > use of 5HT1A antagonists can restore receptor > > > sensitivity/density. > > > > > > > > > > > > The problem we face is: What medication can we reasonably > ask > > > for > > > > > that > > > > > > will help our situation? Most 5HT1A antagonists are found > in a > > > class > > > > > > of psych meds called neuroleptics or antipsychotic, > > > antischizphrenic > > > > > > drugs which usually have associated dopamine antagonist > > > properties. > > > > > > > > > > > > It may be difficult for a patient suffering from SSRI > induced > > > sexual > > > > > > dysfunction to ask for Spiperone or Chlorpromazine as > simply an > > > > > > adjuvant to or remedy for SSRI. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm hoping that one of us will soon find such an agent. > > > > > > > > > > > > I already know Nefazodone works so-so for this problem, but > it > > > has > > > > > > problems due to adrenoreceptor antagonism and very slight > > > chance of > > > > > > liver toxicity. > > > > > > > > > > > > I should also post a retraction about Yohimbine HCL. > According > > > to > > > > > > Wikipedia it IS classified as a 5HT1A/B Antagonist, but > there > > > is no > > > > > > citation for this. When I Googled Yohimbine HCL on the > > > internet, I > > > > > > find that Yohimbine HCL is only listed as a 5HT1A/B > agonist, so > > > now > > > > > > I'm not sure what to believe, but I apologize for passing > along > > > what > > > > > > could be incorrect info from Wikipedia. I felt some > improvement > > > from > > > > > > Yohimbine, but now I'm thinking it was entirely from the > > > > > > norepinepherine increase. > > > > > > > > > > > > In past posts, people have brought up MDMA as a > possibility, > > > but I > > > > > > just don't see that or Nefazodone for that matter as long > term > > > > > > solutions or cures. MDMA is similar to amphetamine in that > it > > > boosts > > > > > > SERT /5HTT and oxytocin. In the short term, this increase in > > > > > > catecholamines may give you a feeling of heightened libido > as > > > does > > > > > > methylphenidate or adderall, but they may ultimately > further > > > down > > > > > > regulate our already marginal 5HT1A receptors causing even > less > > > > > > sensitivity. > > > > > > > > > > > > Vornan, have you tried any sort of 5HT1 antagonist? > > > > > > > > > > > > C > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 17, 2008 Report Share Posted August 17, 2008 Keep us updated on this! It might take a few months to detox from those drugs. If the feverfew keeps working, you might have found something helpful. I stopped nefazodone with > prozac 4 days ago whileonly taking 500-1000mg of feverfew/day. Today I > feel great, so either the meds are responsible or the herb is having a > more pronounced effect than I thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2008 Report Share Posted August 19, 2008 There is no proof that PSSD is related to serotonin receptors, but it is possible I suppose. However, i am not missing the central point of your argument, i simply disagree with it completely. A lot of people with PSSD do not seem to have low T levels. it could be something more complex (inhibition of DHT whihc is much more important for instance). Most people taking ssris do not develop severe ED straight away. Your view of serotonin is too simplistic. You suggest that as soon as it is elevated a little bit, severe ED is inevitable, which is not true. We will have to wait to see if feverfew has a significant effect on ED. If it is much less effective than testosterone alone, your theory may just be " too good to be true. " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I want to start a new thread that focuses on 5HT1A/B > > receptor > > > > > > > blockade, because I think this is where our problem and > > solution > > > > > > > ultimately lie. > > > > > > > From the scientific abstracts I've read on the internet, > > SSRI's > > > > > > > downregulate 5HT1A postsynaptic receptors -among others- > > and > > > > that > > > > > > the > > > > > > > use of 5HT1A antagonists can restore receptor > > > > sensitivity/density. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The problem we face is: What medication can we reasonably > > ask > > > > for > > > > > > that > > > > > > > will help our situation? Most 5HT1A antagonists are found > > in a > > > > class > > > > > > > of psych meds called neuroleptics or antipsychotic, > > > > antischizphrenic > > > > > > > drugs which usually have associated dopamine antagonist > > > > properties. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It may be difficult for a patient suffering from SSRI > > induced > > > > sexual > > > > > > > dysfunction to ask for Spiperone or Chlorpromazine as > > simply an > > > > > > > adjuvant to or remedy for SSRI. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm hoping that one of us will soon find such an agent. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I already know Nefazodone works so-so for this problem, but > > it > > > > has > > > > > > > problems due to adrenoreceptor antagonism and very slight > > > > chance of > > > > > > > liver toxicity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I should also post a retraction about Yohimbine HCL. > > According > > > > to > > > > > > > Wikipedia it IS classified as a 5HT1A/B Antagonist, but > > there > > > > is no > > > > > > > citation for this. When I Googled Yohimbine HCL on the > > > > internet, I > > > > > > > find that Yohimbine HCL is only listed as a 5HT1A/B > > agonist, so > > > > now > > > > > > > I'm not sure what to believe, but I apologize for passing > > along > > > > what > > > > > > > could be incorrect info from Wikipedia. I felt some > > improvement > > > > from > > > > > > > Yohimbine, but now I'm thinking it was entirely from the > > > > > > > norepinepherine increase. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In past posts, people have brought up MDMA as a > > possibility, > > > > but I > > > > > > > just don't see that or Nefazodone for that matter as long > > term > > > > > > > solutions or cures. MDMA is similar to amphetamine in that > > it > > > > boosts > > > > > > > SERT /5HTT and oxytocin. In the short term, this increase in > > > > > > > catecholamines may give you a feeling of heightened libido > > as > > > > does > > > > > > > methylphenidate or adderall, but they may ultimately > > further > > > > down > > > > > > > regulate our already marginal 5HT1A receptors causing even > > less > > > > > > > sensitivity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vornan, have you tried any sort of 5HT1 antagonist? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > C > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2008 Report Share Posted August 21, 2008 Sorry to burst you bubble genius, but the feverfew works very well for me and its less likely to cause neuronal oxidative stress than MDMA, but I agree its more fun to take X while watching the Man burn at Black Rock, Nevada. " A lot of people with PSSD do not seem to have low T levels... " How do you know this? Did you conduct a survey? Prove your statement. Cite your sources. " Inhibition of DHT which is more important for instance... " Again, no citation! " There is no proof that PSSD is related to serotonin receptors... " This is priceless! You sound like a defense lawyer for Eli Lilly. I took Feverfew for several days and could feel my serotonin levels drop. First the disappearnce of genital anasthesia, then a general sense of depression set in, which I could accept because I knew it was due to changes in brain chemistry and not emotional issues. I stopped taking the feverfew to see what would happen when my serotonin levels replenished themselves. Nothing happened for 2 or 3 days, but then on the 4th night. I woke up, feeling dizzy and very horny, so I had sex with my girlfriend...twice! Since then, I have not taken any more Feverfew and have maintained heightened libido for two days. The Nefazodone/Prozac combination worked pretty well for me, but I was too often adjusting the dosage which seemed like a moving target. This herbal solution is cheaper and may be simpler to use in the long term. At this point,I'm not sure if I'll have to continually cycle on and off it or not, but I should know in a week to 10 days. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I want to start a new thread that focuses on 5HT1A/B > > > receptor > > > > > > > > blockade, because I think this is where our problem and > > > solution > > > > > > > > ultimately lie. > > > > > > > > From the scientific abstracts I've read on the > internet, > > > SSRI's > > > > > > > > downregulate 5HT1A postsynaptic receptors -among others- > > > > and > > > > > that > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > use of 5HT1A antagonists can restore receptor > > > > > sensitivity/density. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The problem we face is: What medication can we > reasonably > > > ask > > > > > for > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > will help our situation? Most 5HT1A antagonists are > found > > > in a > > > > > class > > > > > > > > of psych meds called neuroleptics or antipsychotic, > > > > > antischizphrenic > > > > > > > > drugs which usually have associated dopamine antagonist > > > > > properties. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It may be difficult for a patient suffering from SSRI > > > induced > > > > > sexual > > > > > > > > dysfunction to ask for Spiperone or Chlorpromazine as > > > simply an > > > > > > > > adjuvant to or remedy for SSRI. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm hoping that one of us will soon find such an agent. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I already know Nefazodone works so-so for this problem, > but > > > it > > > > > has > > > > > > > > problems due to adrenoreceptor antagonism and very > slight > > > > > chance of > > > > > > > > liver toxicity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I should also post a retraction about Yohimbine HCL. > > > According > > > > > to > > > > > > > > Wikipedia it IS classified as a 5HT1A/B Antagonist, but > > > there > > > > > is no > > > > > > > > citation for this. When I Googled Yohimbine HCL on the > > > > > internet, I > > > > > > > > find that Yohimbine HCL is only listed as a 5HT1A/B > > > agonist, so > > > > > now > > > > > > > > I'm not sure what to believe, but I apologize for > passing > > > along > > > > > what > > > > > > > > could be incorrect info from Wikipedia. I felt some > > > improvement > > > > > from > > > > > > > > Yohimbine, but now I'm thinking it was entirely from the > > > > > > > > norepinepherine increase. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In past posts, people have brought up MDMA as a > > > possibility, > > > > > but I > > > > > > > > just don't see that or Nefazodone for that matter as > long > > > term > > > > > > > > solutions or cures. MDMA is similar to amphetamine in > that > > > it > > > > > boosts > > > > > > > > SERT /5HTT and oxytocin. In the short term, this > increase in > > > > > > > > catecholamines may give you a feeling of heightened > libido > > > as > > > > > does > > > > > > > > methylphenidate or adderall, but they may ultimately > > > further > > > > > down > > > > > > > > regulate our already marginal 5HT1A receptors causing > even > > > less > > > > > > > > sensitivity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vornan, have you tried any sort of 5HT1 antagonist? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > C > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2008 Report Share Posted August 21, 2008 thats good news. Im slightly confused though. Ive read migraines are caused by low serotonin and ive also read people with migraines have higher libido than people without migraines. If this was true why is feverfew used to treat migraines ? since it antagonizes serotonin. Anyways, so from what ive read, you have noticed betterlibido and normal sensitation while you were taking feverfew and after stopped taking them ? btw what brand of feverfew are you taking. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I want to start a new thread that focuses on 5HT1A/B > > > > receptor > > > > > > > > > blockade, because I think this is where our problem and > > > > solution > > > > > > > > > ultimately lie. > > > > > > > > > From the scientific abstracts I've read on the > > internet, > > > > SSRI's > > > > > > > > > downregulate 5HT1A postsynaptic receptors -among others- > > > > > > and > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > use of 5HT1A antagonists can restore receptor > > > > > > sensitivity/density. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The problem we face is: What medication can we > > reasonably > > > > ask > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > will help our situation? Most 5HT1A antagonists are > > found > > > > in a > > > > > > class > > > > > > > > > of psych meds called neuroleptics or antipsychotic, > > > > > > antischizphrenic > > > > > > > > > drugs which usually have associated dopamine antagonist > > > > > > properties. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It may be difficult for a patient suffering from SSRI > > > > induced > > > > > > sexual > > > > > > > > > dysfunction to ask for Spiperone or Chlorpromazine as > > > > simply an > > > > > > > > > adjuvant to or remedy for SSRI. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm hoping that one of us will soon find such an agent. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I already know Nefazodone works so-so for this problem, > > but > > > > it > > > > > > has > > > > > > > > > problems due to adrenoreceptor antagonism and very > > slight > > > > > > chance of > > > > > > > > > liver toxicity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I should also post a retraction about Yohimbine HCL. > > > > According > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > Wikipedia it IS classified as a 5HT1A/B Antagonist, but > > > > there > > > > > > is no > > > > > > > > > citation for this. When I Googled Yohimbine HCL on the > > > > > > internet, I > > > > > > > > > find that Yohimbine HCL is only listed as a 5HT1A/B > > > > agonist, so > > > > > > now > > > > > > > > > I'm not sure what to believe, but I apologize for > > passing > > > > along > > > > > > what > > > > > > > > > could be incorrect info from Wikipedia. I felt some > > > > improvement > > > > > > from > > > > > > > > > Yohimbine, but now I'm thinking it was entirely from the > > > > > > > > > norepinepherine increase. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In past posts, people have brought up MDMA as a > > > > possibility, > > > > > > but I > > > > > > > > > just don't see that or Nefazodone for that matter as > > long > > > > term > > > > > > > > > solutions or cures. MDMA is similar to amphetamine in > > that > > > > it > > > > > > boosts > > > > > > > > > SERT /5HTT and oxytocin. In the short term, this > > increase in > > > > > > > > > catecholamines may give you a feeling of heightened > > libido > > > > as > > > > > > does > > > > > > > > > methylphenidate or adderall, but they may ultimately > > > > further > > > > > > down > > > > > > > > > regulate our already marginal 5HT1A receptors causing > > even > > > > less > > > > > > > > > sensitivity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vornan, have you tried any sort of 5HT1 antagonist? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > C > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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