Re: Re: Tony Attwood's opinion on autistics and relationships...

May 17, 2009

gprobs thinks that everyone is entitled to their opinions. She has some knowledge of this over the years. It might not be the same as the knowledge that other people on this list have because she has different circumstances, but her perceptions are as valid as anyone elses. I think that Tony has done a lot of good. I went to him for my own dx because I wanted to be certain. I did not want to traipse around shopping for a dx that might not be correct. His practice is good in many ways because he provides information about strengths, discusses difficulties in light of the profile of abilities highlighted by the diagnostic processes and provides free ongoing support, provided this is not abused. However, he is also human and has flaws. One of those is the tendency to be a "crowd pleaser". An example of this is his statement about the way he conducts relationships workshops. I have no doubt that he is respectful towards autistic partners during these workshops however during his seminars to professionals, he has been very much promoting the same opinions and stereotypes as Maxine. He even mimicked the "autistic walk" which some of us, including my son, do and some of us don't. I was very offended to see that mocked for the entertainment of the audience, particularly as mimicking behaviours relating to a classified disability are classed as discriminatory behaviours. I have told him my opinion of that. I have asked Tony why he does that stuff and he replies that it is good stress release for the audience. At least he replies even though that excuse would not satisfy the anti discrimination body in Australia. Carol Gray, who also likes to make the audience laugh at our expense does not even reply.

"I would expect the sort of knee-jerk reaction gprobertson posted recently to be

in keeping with an NT's reaction and not in keeping with an Autistic's reaction."

Oh no. You better let Tony Attwood know that he is not a very good diagnostician.

Re: Tony Attwood's opinion on autistics and relationships...

Yes, and the reaction that gprobertson posted in this forum along with her knee-jerk call to sign a petition against Tony Attwood was premature and ill-conceived.

This is how good people get burned out quickly in this world ... by people who are quick to judge without bothering to get all the facts prior to defaming, slandering and libeling a strong advocate who works tirelessly to bridge the gap between those on the spectrum and those who are neurotypical.

I would expect the sort of knee-jerk reaction gprobertson posted recently to be in keeping with an NT's reaction and not in keeping with an Autistic's reaction.

Raven

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May 17, 2009

He would not compose that email if he thought it was a waste of time. When he makes official links with groups, he is aware of the implication that the actions of that group will be perceived as approved by him. This is why many autism groups seek Tony's name to be affiliated with theirs. It gives automatic credibility.

Re: Tony Attwood's opinion on autistics and relationships...

gprobertson@... wrote:

"I note that that article is dated a couple of days after ASAN contacted Tony regarding his position and alignment with various groups who denigrate our ability to form relationships. I know the contents of the letter because I sent it to him by registered mail. In the letter, we discussed his alignment with people who subscribe to the "Cassandra Syndrome" theory. You can see in the email that he is clearly not supporting that theory at all, but this is the first time I have seen him explicitly state that he does not support that theory."

Okay, I feel the need to address this, because you've infuriated me with your ignorance.

First of all, most people who have read Attwood's books, read his articles, wrote him personally on this issue, attended his lectures, etc., knows what Attwood's views are on this subject

To suggest that ASAN was instrumental in getting Attwood to clarify his views on this issue is absolutely absurd. Anyone who has seen Attwood, read Attwood, or corresponded with him personally on these issues knows what his views are, and his views have always been favorable to Aspies.

In this particular instance, I think ASAN decided to go after Attwood simply to draw attention to itself.

"We also discussed the matter of having the legal protocols which address anyone who is unable to care for their children being sufficient to address the needs of autistic parents who are unable to parent successfully. I note that he is supporting our perspective."

Attwood always supported "your" perspective, and there was never a time when he didn't. To imply otherwise is ridiculous. He has ALWAYS held a view that was similar to yours, and nothing ASAN has done or is doing was influential in determining or changing Attwood's views.

"In my opinion, this is a very successful outcome from a civil but detailed letter in which we expressed our disappointment at his alignment with groups who stereotype autistics as participants in unequal relationships in which the partner is a victim of autism."

To put it bluntly: What it was was an attempt on his part to clarify that his position is and always was in concert with your's and ASAN's. He never aligned himself with any such movement or group like you describe, as anyone who personally knows him understands.

The "letter" served no other purpose except to cause people to question Attwood and the legitimacy of his research, which is something autistics cannot afford given that he has always been an ally of autistics.

In short, if autistics want to alienate Attwood, there is no better way of doing it than in the manner ASAN did. As a rule of thumb I admire and support ASAN's ideas and ideals, but not in this specific instance.

"Thank you for posting that link. I shall let the other members of ASAN-AU know of this excellent outcome."

You might also want to let them know that thanks to ASAN's letter, Attwood was forced to waste valuable time clarifying his position which was already known to the autistic community at large, and that his time could have been better spent continuing his valuable research, and advocating for autistics.

Further, you might want to tell people in ASAN-AU to educate themselves a little better about who Attwood is, what he stands for, and what he teaches, because their ignorance -and yours- regarding Tony Attwood makes us all look stupid.

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May 17, 2009

I can't speak for ASAN. You get to be an approved link by submitting it for inclusion. ASAN-AU has not submitted the link. I don't know that there would be a benefit to us to do that. There are many credible Autism organizations who are not linked on Tony's site so it isn't a big issue. Actually I had a website for some years and that was listed on his site. I took the site down and asked for the link to be removed when the burden of keeping the up to date became onerous.

Re: Tony Attwood's opinion on autistics and relationships...

asked: "Incidentally, why isn't ASAN one of Attwood's approved links?"

That's a good question.

Raven

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May 17, 2009

I don't think Aspies for Freedom and ASAN can be grouped together. For a start, they want validation from others. ASAN-AU does not require that.

Re: Tony Attwood's opinion on autistics and relationships...

"I can't speak for ASAN. You get to be an approved link by submitting it for inclusion. ASAN-AU has not submitted the link. I don't know that there would be a benefit to us to do that. There are many credible Autism organizations who are not linked on Tony's site so it isn't a big issue. Actually I had a website for some years and that was listed on his site. I took the site down and asked for the link to be removed when the burden of keeping the up to date became onerous."

Yes well, I think there is a different reason. If you notice, other militant or quasi-militant groups are not listed either. Aspies For Freedom isn't there and I know they have tried to make the list.

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May 17, 2009

I don't speak for ASAN-AU. Sometimes I am required to represent them, which if I agree on their proposed action, I do.

My point was that ASAN-AU has not been rejected by Tony. It has not been submitted. He does not post links without request from the organizers. I know this because when I was webmaster for Autism Tasmania, all autism groups contacted him if they wanted links. He did not solicit any. I also know that he does publish links that might be controversial. He published the link to my site which contained some information that some people strongly objected to but he was ok with controversy. I don't know what he does now, but at the time, Tony personally approved/disapproved content on his site. ASAN-AU does not require validity from other people. Its members validate its presence, however we have been approached by an autism association which is making us a large donation as soon as we have incorporated, a process we are presently undertaking. To me, the willingness to support us financially is more validation than a link on a list.

I do not think chelation is good treatment for autism. I have never thought it was a treatment for autism. I think it is a possible treatment for heavy metal poisoning. I also talk to people about the dangers of chelation and there are many. I have been linked to many natural health products. Not necessarily to help autism although some have helped me cope with autistic characteristics. I have used the gluten free diet and found that helped me with digestive issues. I know of people in my community who have gluten free diets and they do not have autism. They feel better too. I live in an area which is very low in selenium and iodine. I find that taking iodine has helped with the symptoms of hypothyroidism and having helped with that, i am more able to cope with problems around autism. that is not the same as curing autism. If you keep reading those iodine postings, you will see that when I was in Japan I did not take iodine supplements because my diet was rich in that substance. I did not participate in sun and moon malarky as a cure for autism. I participated in sun malarkey as a possible remedy for SAD and poor vitamin A uptake. I have poor depth perception and I thought that might help. The fact is that quite a few autistics have poor depth perception, but that is not a remedy for autism. Now the health department here is promoting mild sun exposure for vitamin D deficiency. I dont do any moon stuff. Actually I was kicked out of a group for not agreeing that these things cured autism, so it is weird to think that i am being scolded for saying that it does. It is ok for people to discuss health issues. It is not ok for them to tell everyone that these are a cure for autism. I have never wanted autism to be cured. if I had, I would support CAN and Autism Speaks and I would not be a member of ASAN-AU.

I would like to see the link where I said that: "It will be very easy for you to go to Yahoo Groups and form your own foulmouthed autistic group!!!!!!! [end "

You are very welcome to search for the site. It was called Welcome to Planet Asperger. I doubt that you will like it but that is not a problem. I put it up when I was in the early stages of finding out about AS. It was not to please anyone except myself and it served its purpose of exploring something that was so important to me and of finding out more about how the internet worked. Sad to think that its corpse is about to be exhumed, but I am sure you will have many hours of pleasure ripping my innermost thoughts apart. If I still had it, I would give you the URL but it was long and complicated and I did not bother to keep a record. Actually I had two sites with that name. Znet took down the first one when they started charging for hosting and I decided I didn't want to pay. It wasn't that important.

Re: Tony Attwood's opinion on autistics and relationships...

gprobertson wrote: "I can't speak for ASAN ... <snip> ... "

But you *do* speak for ASAN-AU as evidenced by your previous post of earlier this evening when you wrote:

"

ASAN contacted Tony regarding his position and alignment with various groups who denigrate our ability to form relationships. I know the contents of the letter because I sent it to him by registered mail. In the letter, we discussed his alignment with people who ... <snip> ... [end quote]."
gprobertson wrote: " ... <snip> ... You get to be an approved link by submitting it for inclusion ... <snip> ... "
My understanding is that a link is not automatic by virtue of just being submitted. My understanding is that the submitted link is researched and then either approved or rejected.
But, of course, it begins with submitting the link in the first place so it can be investigated by the appropriate people responsible for Tony Attwood's online presence.
gproberston wrote: " ... <snip> ... ASAN-AU has not submitted the link ... <snip> ... "
Perhaps they have not; perhaps they have and it was rejected. Perhaps it was submitted and a decision has not be arrived at yet to date.
gprobertson wrote: " ... <snip> ... I don't know that there would be a benefit to us to do that ... <snip> ... "
Hold on a minute there, Geraldine! You began your reponse with:
"

May 17, 2009

Greetings FAMSecretSociety members;have been following the thread with interest for several reasons, one of which is:Some of us try to be very precise with our use of language, myself included. This does not totally eliminate misunderstandings, but hopefuilly it reduces them!grobertson wrote: excerpted:For a start, they want validation from others. ASAN-AU does not require that.my comment:each sentence above contains a different meaning:What someone

OR a group 'WANTS' is

just a want, something

desired.'Want' does not mean an absolute.http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/wantWhat someone or a group REQUIRES is an absolute, a need, (a 'deal breaker' to use an idiom.)http://http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=requireMuch to my surprise, the above dictionary does list the following as it's 4th definition (the first 3 do define REQUIRE as being an obligation, necessity etc)"Chiefly British. to desire; wish to have: Will you require tea at four o'clock?"This meaning does not negate my point, just shows a shade of varaince.renaissanzelady"My

cat Rusty is a servant of the Living God."(adapted from a poem by Smart)Subject: Re: Re: Tony Attwood's opinion on autistics and relationships...To: FAMSecretSociety Received: Sunday, May 17, 2009, 12:52 AM

I don't think Aspies for Freedom and ASAN can be grouped together. For a start, they want validation from others. ASAN-AU does not require that.

Re: Tony Attwood's opinion on autistics and relationships. ..

"I can't speak for ASAN. You get to be an approved link by submitting it for inclusion. ASAN-AU has not submitted the link. I don't know that there would be a benefit to us to do that. There are many credible Autism organizations who are not linked on Tony's site so it isn't a big issue. Actually I had a website for some years and that was listed on his site. I took the site down and asked for the link to be removed when the burden of keeping the up to date became onerous."Yes well, I think there is a different reason. If you notice, other militant or quasi-militant groups are not

listed either. Aspies For Freedom isn't there and I know they have tried to make the list. Administrator ------------ --------- --------- ------Fellowship of the Aspergian Miracle is the last series of message boards founded by an original Aspergia member to carry the Aspergia name with the www.aspergia. com website owner's permission. To contact the FAM forum administrator, use this e-mail address: FAMSecretSociety- owner@yahoogroup s.comCheck the Links section for more FAM forums.

May 17, 2009

Greetings;Sometimes an organization would 'use' someone to their advantage, even if the person could be a potantial danger to them, It's a sort of trade off. (like allowing a dangerous snake to live under your house in the tropics, because it is useful to control rats etc!)'if the devil drives you, you have no choice but to go, or in other

words, sometimes events compel you to do something you would much

rather not.' http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-nee1.htmPersonally I don't think it's wise to take a risk that could result in an organization losing credibility, possibly having potential supporters scared off etc. just because someone may be useful to them at times.However, leaders need to have both wisdom and a 'backbone' to weed their ranks.Unfortunatly they sometimes lack both."Politics makes strange bedfellows", speaking here of not governmental politics but organizational politics. (from my observations through the years in different organizations, not autism related)renaissanzelady"My cat Rusty is a servant of the Living God."(adapted from a poem by

Smart)From: environmental1st2003 <no_reply >Subject:

Re: Tony Attwood's opinion on autistics and relationships...To: FAMSecretSociety Received: Sunday, May 17, 2009, 10:49 AM

"I don't think Aspies for Freedom and ASAN can be grouped together. For a start, they want validation from others. ASAN-AU does not require that."

I think initially, it was true that they could not be grouped together. But now days, more and more they are being seen as one and the same.

When Aspies For Freedom was founded, it was founded by an underaged Aspie boy who practiced Satanism. He ran away from home to live with a married Aspie woman twice his age. He is alleged by his father to have stolen a bunch of computer equipment from his father's home with said equipment having an estimated value at the time of five thousand pounds.

This boy (now of legal age) and this woman have since flooded the net with a number of websites and chatrooms, etc., attracting the most militant of the autistic population. Some branches of AFF have sprung up, but many have already folded, even one in Austrailia run by someone named .

Aspies For Freedom's claims to fame were a few civil rights marches as well as trying to get the United Nations to declare autistics a minority group - something that made them the laughing stock of the autistic community.

ASAN was founded by Ari Ne'eman, and has consistently been much more grounded in terms of its goals, one of them being to address individuals and organizations which misrepresent autism or paint autistics or autism itself in a bad light. In my opinion, it's most successful campaign was the Ransom Notes campaign.

But speaking from experience, I also know that Ari is an opportunist who makes tenuous bonds with people whom he thinks will be of advantage to him in promoting his causes.

I know of at least one company that approached MIC asking to sponsor one of our events. We told this company and its founder that we would not align ourselves with them due to their active and enthusiastic support of Autism Speaks via a joint fundraiser with another company. The founder, who is NOT an Aspie, is now one of Ari's allies, and the company is seen in a position of prominance on many petitions and letters which Ari sends to those he is protesting against. The founder has claimed to Ari to be Aspie when in fact the founder is not. The founder continues to work with another company to support Autism Speaks even as it purports to be Ari's ally. This only goes to show that Ari does a poor job of screening his confederates.

How do I know these things for sure? The company's founder WAS a personal friend. The founder is about as socially outgoing as you can posibly imagine. Has loads of friends. Displays none of the attitudes, aspects, or indicators of autism, and has stated openly that there was no diagnosis that ever resulted in the label asperger/autism/ HFA or autism spectrum disorder. In fact, the founder has no diagnosis whatsoever.

Now we have this attempt by ASAN to impugn Attwood.

It smells bad any way you look at it.

Never at any point in history did Attwood have the view or present the view that ASAN is alledging he has presented. The move by ASAN to question Attwood's actions/speech is either based on ignorance, or a deliberate attempt to bring attention to itself.

What I am saying, is that the tenuous bonds ASAN forms with supporting corporations as well as its moves to assault the motives of the biggest and most important autism researchers in the world, are evocative of AFF's tactics.

Lastly, of course, we have you, someone who is supposedly ocassionally utilized by ASAN-AU, and but whom has a known history of causing consternation on the net. One of our members here banned you from another forum, and you yourself have admitted to being banned from some forums. Some of your views on autism and what can be done to treat and cure it are in and of themselves anti-thetical to Ari Ne-eman's beliefs and ethics as well as ASAN's principles and ethical stance, so I don't see how ASAN can in any way be taken seriously anymore in light of all of this.

In my opinion, Ari needs to weed through ASAN and pitch those who, by their actions and deeds are working against them even as they claim to be working for them. You ought to be the first to go.

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May 18, 2009

..ah. I knew that was not something I created. I was horrified at the author stereotyping all of us for one person's behaviour.

That is what the exclamation marks were about. It can be very effective to take things out of context if you want to portray someone as something they are not. You have done this well, Raven, however some people might be more interested in fact.

This is the message I was responding to:

You need to form a new group where you can criticize each other to

the hilt and say bad things to each other, like several people did to

my son. It will be very easy for you to go to Yahoo Groups and form

your own foulmouthed autistic group. I urge you to do so. Not one

of you stood up for my son when he was verbally attacked with foul

language and got very physically sick when someone on this list

called him "the back end of a horse" and "but head" and other people

ridiculed him just for asking a legitimate question. He is only 16,

although he is a genious. Nobody had a right to do this to him.

The author has the nick cureautism.

Re: You Need To Form Your Own Group From: gprobertson

Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 06:20:09 -0500

Yahoo! Message Number: 71501

Onibasu Link: http://onibasu.com/archives/am/71501.html

The site was inaccessible for most of Friday February 16, 2007 due to a problem with the domain name server. Sorry for the inconvenience! .

-- It will be very easy for you to go to Yahoo Groups and form

your own foulmouthed autistic group.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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You posted that at www.onibasu.com over 6 years ago ... the same site where you promoted those things that you deny promoting in your most recent post here.

gproberston wrote: " ... <snip> ... You are very welcome to search for the site. It was called Welcome to Planet Asperger. ... <snip> ... "

What was the domain name? It certainly wasn't www.welcometoplanetasperger.com.

gprobertson wrote: " ... <snip> ... If I still had it, I would give you the URL but it was long and complicated and I did not bother to keep a record. Actually I had two sites with that name ... <snip> ... "

How convenient for you. Still, complicated or not, one generally does not forget the work one does that has an impact on one's life including setting up not one, but two, websites that pertain to a diagnosis that one has been given by a respected and world renown authority on the subject.

gproberston wrote: " ... <snip> ... It wasn't that important ... <snip> ... "

I've noticed how that's a part of how you operate.

Raven

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May 18, 2009

I outgrew my sites like I outgrew my daipers. I didnt keep them either. It wasnt that important.

Re: You Need To Form Your Own Group From: gprobertson

Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 06:20:09 -0500

Yahoo! Message Number: 71501

Onibasu Link: http://onibasu.com/archives/am/71501.html

The site was inaccessible for most of Friday February 16, 2007 due to a problem with the domain name server. Sorry for the inconvenience! .

-- It will be very easy for you to go to Yahoo Groups and form

your own foulmouthed autistic group.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

____________________

The NEW Netscape 7.0 browser is now available. Upgrade now! http://channels.netscape.com/ns/browsers/download.jsp

Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/

You posted that at www.onibasu.com over 6 years ago ... the same site where you promoted those things that you deny promoting in your most recent post here.

gproberston wrote: " ... <snip> ... You are very welcome to search for the site. It was called Welcome to Planet Asperger. ... <snip> ... "

What was the domain name? It certainly wasn't www.welcometoplanetasperger.com.

gprobertson wrote: " ... <snip> ... If I still had it, I would give you the URL but it was long and complicated and I did not bother to keep a record. Actually I had two sites with that name ... <snip> ... "

How convenient for you. Still, complicated or not, one generally does not forget the work one does that has an impact on one's life including setting up not one, but two, websites that pertain to a diagnosis that one has been given by a respected and world renown authority on the subject.

gproberston wrote: " ... <snip> ... It wasn't that important ... <snip> ... "

I've noticed how that's a part of how you operate.

Raven

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May 18, 2009

My views on what can cure autism have always been that I do not want a cure and I do not know of a cure. THAT got me banned from a site. I know the history of Aspies for Freedom. I don't see anything wrong with a variation in ages between adults. Quite a few AS people have a partner who is much older or much younger. If it works for them, that seems fine to me. I do have a problem with some of the other things the people in that saga have done.