Re: Re: Give me some advice part 2

[Guest guest]

There are loads of Autistics who work or want to work. They don't all like to use comps or access the autism online communty, so we don't hear from them. Sometimes autistics need time to take on new things and sometimes they don't succeed. Some like me, take on a few things and cannot do everything that they would like. I work full time and only have the energy left after work to work on one advocacy committee, so to a lot of people, I would appear to be apathetic I would suggest that you don't go into this if you want gratitude or want people to see you as a hero. You need to be patient and know that change can take a long time for some people who have been treated as useless all their lives, but you get a really big buzz when you realize you have made a difference to someone.

Re: Give me some advice part 2

lot's of downsides well that's why I did not just jump into it.I will talk to the folks that wanted to be on the board and let them know.

I was not aware the AS community was that way I guess I assumed wrong.I have always been one to stick things out and to try to do the right thing.

I may start looking into scholarships and just redirect my life meanwhile I will stick with the drumcircle I run and that can be the good thing I do for others.

Thanks for the advice

Chris

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[Guest guest]

You would probably need to use open source software.

Re: Give me some advice part 2

That's a point I forgot to mention, that I realized after I posted the last post of mine, Tom, and that's a great one.

There's more than one issue with leaving pre-existing software on it:

1. If left there, you can't be sure of its provenance, even if the PC *does* have some Windows (or whatever) license sticker on it, as it may not match that installed software.

2. Even if you had a good faith expectation that the software was all properly licensed to go with the machine, how do you know that the machine isn't infected with some sort of malware?

3. Even if the first two requirements are satisfied, do you actually have the passwords or the ability to reset things to a default?

4. Assuming the first 3 items, how much assurance do you have that the OS isn't a bad installation with faulty drivers that don't work well or at all?

5. Who do you go for, for tech support for setting things up initially? Sure, you might be able to do it in that shop, but sooner or later, the buyers (if you find them) are going to need some sort of technical support, if they don't already have the experience to do it themselves.

6. If the users already have the experience to not need your technical support after they've bought it, I find myself wondering: who are you going to find that will actually buy the hardware, since if they have that level of knowledge, far too often they can scrounge old hardware from friends and family that have it lying around, underutilized, because they're upgrading to something faster, more modern, more reliable, and (you can't overestimate the importance of this for both individuals and businesses) stuff that has a viable warranty still in effect. Those that have the knowledge and experience to be proficient in all this, if they're not doing it purely for the sake of being machine collectors because they like old stuff for some reason (I know a couple friends online that do this, but one of them still lives at home with his parents, and I don't think he's paying rent or the electric bill). Older systems also tend to require more electrical power than the newer ones for the equivalent computational power. A lot of systems that people will get rid of are the long era of the P4-based machines, which double as inefficient room heaters. Going Green is one nice theory, but no P4-based machine counts when you do the math.

7. If machines don't have their hard drives fully cleaned off of all data (not merely using the recycle bin, but low-level reformatting, preferably extensive wiping for security purposes) there's all sorts of potentially sensitive information on them that can open up all sorts of liability issues for both the people giving them to you, and potentially you as well. All of this is very labor-intensive, of course! What is your time worth?

If you don't have the cash *now* before attempting to do this full-time to make all your bills (both for running the non-profit and your family's finances) you don't stand a remotely realistic chance: getting revenue in is so unpredictable, and takes far more time than you'd imagine to get started, as does getting all the paperwork and legalities taken care of, etc. and I speak of this from first-hand experience, as well as doing business with someone that's gone a much longer time than desired to soon make a profit on a business venture with him being 1 of 3 partners: he's been in the partnership for about 14 months now, and has been living off of whatever he can, but not income from the business as of yet. There's all kinds of startup overhead they've run into, negotiating contracts with supplier and buyers, checks in the mail (HA! You'd think people would use electronic funds transfers these days, but, believe it or not, there's still a lot of people and businesses that don't come near that! Guess what THAT does for predictability? Now you have 4 problems:

1. There's a human guaranteed to be in the loop for processing invoices, and they make a very effective central single point of failure (this has happened) 2. There's the issue of it making it to the mailbox as stated time-wise (this has also happened)

3. There's the unpredictability of the mail taking longer than you'd expect (< 20 miles away, several days by mail: this is still in progress)

4. There's the unpredictability of the check clearing the bank: this, for my example, still represents an unknown, but I have a clue to the size of the check, and I expect that'll be a killer, unless he gets extremely lucky. You see, rarely does a company make out cashier's checks, as they're too labor/time-intensive for them to bother with...

)

So, ask yourself: do you have ALL of these things already covered? Have you run the numbers of what it costs to dispose of/recycle old computer hardware that you can't sell? Have you gotten firm estimates as to the cost of buildings to do this in, keeping in mind, you're dealing with what are classified as hazardous/toxic materials, and you will absolutely have to deal with paperwork for your state/local governments to track that all (I had to wade through the paperwork for my business I formed and fill out such stuff). If all of this isn't covered, you're nowhere near ready to file paperwork and start with the expenses. After all, this is the worst credit market since the Great Depression, so unless you've got the ideal credit report now, and a credit line now, you had better get cash funds in the bank before you go any farther down your path, otherwise, the chances of failure approach 100% in less than a few months.

>

> "Thanks for the the tips keep them comming"

> > One other "tip."

> > I hope if you are selling re-furbished machines that you are also wiping the drives before selling them. If you are re-selling preloaded software that has been licensed to someone else, then you are selling pirated software.

> > If the drives are clean, now you have a new concern to deal with. > > Consider how many machines you stand to sell at all. > > A person would first have to buy your machine, and then buy the software to load on the machine. Since you have things like rent and people to pay, you would have to sell the machine at a rate that is profitable to you, yet competitive with other charities and recycling firms which are doing the same thing. And on top of that your client has to pay for software.

> > So your machine is not going to be too cheap. > > Now why would anyone want to buy a refurbished machine that is prone to breaking down at any time, and purchase new software to load up on this antique, when for the same amount of money or for a few hundred dollars more they can get a brand new low-budget model that could function more reliably, run faster, and with the newest software already installed?

> > From a business perspective, I would not purchase from you, and from a personal perspective I doubt I would unless I was buying something for a child to have to play with. Sort of like how my mom eventually gave me her old IBM typewriter to mess around with she upgraded to a newer model when I was a kid. > >

> Administrator

>

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Fellowship of the Aspergian Miracle is the last series of message boards founded by an original Aspergia member to carry the Aspergia name with the www.aspergia.com website owner's permission. To contact the FAM forum administrator, use this e-mail address: FAMSecretSociety-owner

Check the Links section for more FAM forums.

[Guest guest]

That comment was on a post that was talking about the hazards of using microsoft products. I don't think you needed to be nasty to me. In an earlier email I posted a link to a compamy that seems similar to the one you propose and they do use open source software and they do teach the people who include ppl with intellectual disabilities and people who include technophobes how to use it. The training is all a part of the package and because they are certified trainers, the government pays the trainer's salary.

You do not have to be an ubergeek to have a basic understanding of Linux appropriate to most users needs. I know that from personal experience because I am no geek but they got me using Linux well enough to manage a small network in 3 hours. I think it would take longer for a complete novice. I also know of people who started as novices and joined the organization as volunteers so that they could learn more.

No need to be nasty. I am probably the most positive person who has been posting to you on this topic.

Re: Give me some advice part 2

Yup, now there's a real winner of a solution! Why didn't I think of that???

Oh, wait: that's because I know exactly what I'm talking about, as I have made my living in the field, doing things from doing exactly what he's talking about as part of my job, part of my hobby, but not to teach others, and yes, I've developed software, professionally, for longer than he's been in the field, and started programming and had been doing so at some level for longer than he's been in the field before I did it professionally. Sooner or later, I'll have to submit my past education/experience to get my official Geek Certification.

But, on to the topic at hand: your flippant answer just shows a lack of thought about the whole thing from the typical end-user's perspective, since once you use all open source software (a laudable goal in the minds of many) you've opened up yet another large can of worms. Why? The only people that won't require some sort of tech support/hand-holding after the sale will be those that will already assemble their own computers and install open source software (or anything else, legally or otherwise) and the only ones that might find it worthwhile (at least, for the majority of the cases) will be rather clueless about at least doing anything with the OS when all they've had past experience with is Windows, or perhaps Mac OS X, or the Mac OS before OS X. I act as tech support for quite a few family members and friends, and I can assure you this: if something new needs to be done to their system for installing hardware and software, how it is done on either Windows of any variant or Mac OS X is more than complicated enough as it is for them, even when things go smoothly. Why? Most mere mortals that aren't the ubergeeks don't ever want to be bothered to learn anything more than they absolutely need, and perhaps, if they work with computers at work, the majority at this time run some mutation of Windows, so they prefer to go with the devil they know. Not only that, but they'll want to work with any data files that other Windows users also work with, and if you try to tell me that Open Office, for example, is equivalent to Microsoft Office, well, I'll likely call you a bunch of not-nice things because you clearly have no clue, and what's more, I can prove it to you unambiguously, because I've used Microsoft Office features that the majority of users don't even know exist, and even if they do know it exists, they don't know how to do it themselves, but, guess what? There's a good chance that they'll encounter documents with macros and such that DO use those features, that are part of office workflow solutions, h

owever hacked they may be. Now, to convert those more interesting documents over to Open Office (or even any other office suite, for that matter) is not a guaranteed success for formatting issues, assuming the documents don't use the more Microsoft Office-specific things. And that's just talking about Microsoft Office compared to other office suites.

Next, let's not even get into the gory details of an odd hardware configuration where you attempt to get the latest and greatest version of the OS and all the OS updates and user space libraries. If people complain about Windows DLL Hell (not nearly as bad as it used to be, especially in more recent versions of Windows that make that more manageable) they haven't seen anything yet compared to the nightmare of having to properly setup a truly working system under Linux without all the dependencies being an endless cycle of attempted updates and things to get a whole, working system that does all you want. If you get a base distribution that has exactly what you want already installed as-is, and you never have a need or desire to install anything else, you *might* be fine, and not run into that - at least, until there's a security patch update or some other kernel fix or user space library fix, which may very well use more stuff you need to find and download and install, and hope it doesn't pull in more fun dependencies that say they need more dependencies, etc. until you go nuts, and find that the new things that are needed conflict with what's already installed, and it won't work, but you don't decipher that (assuming you have the technical understanding to realize what's going on: those people with that background won't be buying these computers, they'll be assembling them on their own from other's parts they get for free, as I mentioned previously) until it is much too late. Oh, and often, because of the binary changes in the kernel API, old drivers won't always work on newer kernels, and by definition, all donated computers will be rather old, meaning the most appropriate OS to install on it is one from the same era, unless you really want to find and possibly port the old drivers to the new kernel API, and pray that they all play nicely together, but then you have the issue of security updates and kernel bug fixes, etc. and you go round and round again, and where you stop, nobody knows. Ok, so go with Op

enBSD, or FreeBSD, or another OSS OS.... ah, but then there's also a very high chance they don't have all the hardware driver support of Linux or Windows, either Oh, and if any end-user technical support is provided, or even asked for: how many different OS revisions do you now have to be able to decipher and support? Sure, it'll be great experience, in theory, to do all this, but pretty soon word will get around: all that's sold is junk that can't be properly and sanely supported. I can tell you this much: social interactions will be much more interesting, and a great lesson, too, assuming those that act as support personnel are up to the task: not everyone is well-suited to being such a tech support person, and a potentially valuable thing that could be learned from this overly complicated exercise in frustration of a business model for those that attempt to undergo the training is at least they find one more thing that they're either good at, or suck so badly at and hate so much that they'll (hopefully!) abort before going on too long. Not everyone has patience and the desire to stick through getting a system working through all the nightmares that pop up, even if they DO truly know what they're doing: but people that are supposedly learning in this experience, by definition, will not already be very comfortable with this whole thing.

No, I'm not an OS bigot or zealot: I have developed for many different operating systems, installed many different operating systems (I have quite a few installed on my several computers right now, every single one of my computers can multi-boot into distinctly different OS's from all the others on the system) and I'm here to spell out in general details, from first-hand experience, just what's involved. I've developed code for 8 bit processors (desktop computers and microcontrollers) and up to and including massively parallel processing 64-bit cloud computing database software at Yahoo! where I was laid off December 10th, and yes, I've even modified at the kernel level of operating systems, developed 3D CAD software, etc. so I *think* I have a bit of credibility in this realm, though by no means do I claim to know it all: anyone that does, is a pathological liar, or an idiot, or both, because there's only ever one person of any individual, and millions of people around the world changing/advancing things even a little bit every day, and it is simply impossible to hope to keep up with everything, even if you have no life.

> >

> > "Thanks for the the tips keep them comming"

> > > > One other "tip."

> > > > I hope if you are selling re-furbished machines that you are also wiping the > drives before selling them. If you are re-selling preloaded software that has > been licensed to someone else, then you are selling pirated software.

> > > > If the drives are clean, now you have a new concern to deal with. > > > > Consider how many

> machines you stand to sell at all. > > > > A person would first have to buy your machine, and then buy the software to > load on the machine. Since you have things like rent and people to pay, you > would have to sell the machine at a rate that is profitable to you, yet > competitive with other charities and recycling firms which are doing the same > thing. And on top of that your client has to pay for software.

> > > > So your machine is not going to be too cheap. > > > > Now why would anyone want to buy a refurbished machine that is prone to > breaking down at any time, and purchase new software to load up on this antique, > when for the same amount of money or for a few hundred dollars more they can get > a brand new low-budget model that could function more reliably, run faster, and > with the newest software already installed?

> > > > From a business perspective, I would not purchase from you, and from a > personal perspective I doubt I would unless I was buying something for a child > to have to play with. Sort of like how my mom eventually gave me her old IBM > typewriter to mess around with she upgraded to a newer model when I was a kid. > > > >

> > Administrator

> >

> > > > > ------------------------------------

> > Fellowship of the Aspergian Miracle is the last series of message boards founded > by an original Aspergia member to carry the Aspergia name with the > www.aspergia.com website owner's permission. To contact the FAM forum > administrator, use this e-mail address: FAMSecretSociety-owner

> > Check the Links section for more FAM forums. > >

[Guest guest]

Hi;Strict's post contained some good doses of realism.My daughter, who IS a computer geek (unlike me), uses both Windows and Linux, because she finds Windows more effficient for some things.renaissanzelady"My cat Rusty is a servant of the Living God."(adapted from a poem by Smart)From: strictnon_conformist <no_reply >Subject: Re: Give me some advice part 2To:

FAMSecretSociety Received: Saturday, May 2, 2009, 2:41 AM

Yup, now there's a real winner of a solution! Why didn't I think of that???

Oh, wait: that's because I know exactly what I'm talking about, as I have made my living in the field, doing things from doing exactly what he's talking about as part of my job, part of my hobby, but not to teach others, and yes, I've developed software, professionally, for longer than he's been in the field, and started programming and had been doing so at some level for longer than he's been in the field before I did it professionally. Sooner or later, I'll have to submit my past education/experienc e to get my official Geek Certification.

But, on to the topic at hand: your flippant answer just shows a lack of thought about the whole thing from the typical end-user's perspective, since once you use all open source software (a laudable goal in the minds of many) you've opened up yet another large can of worms. Why? The only people that won't require some sort of tech support/hand- holding after the sale will be those that will already assemble their own computers and install open source software (or anything else, legally or otherwise) and the only ones that might find it worthwhile (at least, for the majority of the cases) will be rather clueless about at least doing anything with the OS when all they've had past experience with is Windows, or perhaps Mac OS X, or the Mac OS before OS X. I act as tech support for quite a few family members and friends, and I can assure you this: if something new needs to be done to their system for installing hardware and software, how it is done on

either Windows of any variant or Mac OS X is more than complicated enough as it is for them, even when things go smoothly. Why? Most mere mortals that aren't the ubergeeks don't ever want to be bothered to learn anything more than they absolutely need, and perhaps, if they work with computers at work, the majority at this time run some mutation of Windows, so they prefer to go with the devil they know. Not only that, but they'll want to work with any data files that other Windows users also work with, and if you try to tell me that Open Office, for example, is equivalent to Microsoft Office, well, I'll likely call you a bunch of not-nice things because you clearly have no clue, and what's more, I can prove it to you unambiguously, because I've used Microsoft Office features that the majority of users don't even know exist, and even if they do know it exists, they don't know how to do it themselves, but, guess what? There's a good chance that they'll

encounter documents with macros and such that DO use those features, that are part of office workflow solutions, however hacked they may be. Now, to convert those more interesting documents over to Open Office (or even any other office suite, for that matter) is not a guaranteed success for formatting issues, assuming the documents don't use the more Microsoft Office-specific things. And that's just talking about Microsoft Office compared to other office suites.

Next, let's not even get into the gory details of an odd hardware configuration where you attempt to get the latest and greatest version of the OS and all the OS updates and user space libraries. If people complain about Windows DLL Hell (not nearly as bad as it used to be, especially in more recent versions of Windows that make that more manageable) they haven't seen anything yet compared to the nightmare of having to properly setup a truly working system under Linux without all the dependencies being an endless cycle of attempted updates and things to get a whole, working system that does all you want. If you get a base distribution that has exactly what you want already installed as-is, and you never have a need or desire to install anything else, you *might* be fine, and not run into that - at least, until there's a security patch update or some other kernel fix or user space library fix, which may very well use more stuff you need to find and

download and install, and hope it doesn't pull in more fun dependencies that say they need more dependencies, etc. until you go nuts, and find that the new things that are needed conflict with what's already installed, and it won't work, but you don't decipher that (assuming you have the technical understanding to realize what's going on: those people with that background won't be buying these computers, they'll be assembling them on their own from other's parts they get for free, as I mentioned previously) until it is much too late. Oh, and often, because of the binary changes in the kernel API, old drivers won't always work on newer kernels, and by definition, all donated computers will be rather old, meaning the most appropriate OS to install on it is one from the same era, unless you really want to find and possibly port the old drivers to the new kernel API, and pray that they all play nicely together, but then you have the issue of security

updates and kernel bug fixes, etc. and you go round and round again, and where you stop, nobody knows. Ok, so go with OpenBSD, or FreeBSD, or another OSS OS.... ah, but then there's also a very high chance they don't have all the hardware driver support of Linux or Windows, either Oh, and if any end-user technical support is provided, or even asked for: how many different OS revisions do you now have to be able to decipher and support? Sure, it'll be great experience, in theory, to do all this, but pretty soon word will get around: all that's sold is junk that can't be properly and sanely supported. I can tell you this much: social interactions will be much more interesting, and a great lesson, too, assuming those that act as support personnel are up to the task: not everyone is well-suited to being such a tech support person, and a potentially valuable thing that could be learned from this overly complicated exercise in frustration of a business

model for those that attempt to undergo the training is at least they find one more thing that they're either good at, or suck so badly at and hate so much that they'll (hopefully!) abort before going on too long. Not everyone has patience and the desire to stick through getting a system working through all the nightmares that pop up, even if they DO truly know what they're doing: but people that are supposedly learning in this experience, by definition, will not already be very comfortable with this whole thing.

No, I'm not an OS bigot or zealot: I have developed for many different operating systems, installed many different operating systems (I have quite a few installed on my several computers right now, every single one of my computers can multi-boot into distinctly different OS's from all the others on the system) and I'm here to spell out in general details, from first-hand experience, just what's involved. I've developed code for 8 bit processors (desktop computers and microcontrollers) and up to and including massively parallel processing 64-bit cloud computing database software at Yahoo! where I was laid off December 10th, and yes, I've even modified at the kernel level of operating systems, developed 3D CAD software, etc. so I *think* I have a bit of credibility in this realm, though by no means do I claim to know it all: anyone that does, is a pathological liar, or an idiot, or both, because there's only ever one person of any individual, and millions

of people around the world changing/advancing things even a little bit every day, and it is simply impossible to hope to keep up with everything, even if you have no life.

> >

> > "Thanks for the the tips keep them comming"

> >

> > One other "tip."

> >

> > I hope if you are selling re-furbished machines that you are also wiping the

> drives before selling them. If you are re-selling preloaded software that has

> been licensed to someone else, then you are selling pirated software.

> >

> > If the drives are clean, now you have a new concern to deal with.

> >

> > Consider how many

> machines you stand to sell at all.

> >

> > A person would first have to buy your machine, and then buy the software to

> load on the machine. Since you have things like rent and people to pay, you

> would have to sell the machine at a rate that is profitable to you, yet

> competitive with other charities and recycling firms which are doing the same

> thing. And on top of that your client has to pay for software.

> >

> > So your machine is not going to be too cheap.

> >

> > Now why would anyone want to buy a refurbished machine that is prone to

> breaking down at any time, and purchase new software to load up on this antique,

> when for the same amount of money or for a few hundred dollars more they can get

> a brand new low-budget model that could function more reliably, run faster, and

> with the newest software already installed?

> >

> > From a business perspective, I would not purchase from you, and from a

> personal perspective I doubt I would unless I was buying something for a child

> to have to play with. Sort of like how my mom eventually gave me her old IBM

> typewriter to mess around with she upgraded to a newer model when I was a kid.

> >

> >

> > Administrator

> >

>

>

>

>

> ------------ --------- --------- ------

>

>,___

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[Guest guest]

"Perhaps it is good to have stepping stones so people can make it back to full

operational status. But a single low plateau is not enough, nor should it be the

apex of our ascent."

I would agree with that statement. Patience is not about doing nothing. That is apathy or neglect. Patience in encouraging change is about involving an individual in planning and making small steps towards the goal, but that wont be achieved by nagging and/or negative statements for the vast majority of people. Some people prefer to and have the capacity do this alone, but many need encouragement and support. Patience is also about not giving up on people because they can't meet your expectations. Patient education support means that you will involve the other person in breaking down his/her goals into more achievable chunks that might be very small. It also involves the educator/support person putting aside ego in measuring success by the number of "star pupils" he/she has and instead, valuing how far learners have come more than the destination.

Re: Give me some advice part 2

"You need to be patient and know that change can take a long time for some people who have been treated as useless all their lives, but you get a really big buzz when you realize you have made a difference to someone."

While individual people might have caused someone trouble, the world as a whole did not. One needs to recognize that the world is not going to sit around and wait for people to recover from whatever trauma they have sufferred. The world moves on, and we need to move with it. Perhaps it is good to have stepping stones so people can make it back to full operational status. But a single low plateau is not enough, nor should it be the apex of our ascent.

Administrator

------------------------------------

Fellowship of the Aspergian Miracle is the last series of message boards founded by an original Aspergia member to carry the Aspergia name with the www.aspergia.com website owner's permission. To contact the FAM forum administrator, use this e-mail address: FAMSecretSociety-owner

Check the Links section for more FAM forums.

[Guest guest]

Thank you . This was a helpful and enlightening post.

Re: Give me some advice part 2

That comment was on a post that was talking about the hazards of using microsoft products. I don't think you needed to be nasty to me. In an earlier email I posted a link to a compamy that seems similar to the one you propose and they do use open source software and they do teach the people who include ppl with intellectual disabilities and people who include technophobes how to use it. The training is all a part of the package and because they are certified trainers, the government pays the trainer's salary.

You do not have to be an ubergeek to have a basic understanding of Linux appropriate to most users needs. I know that from personal experience because I am no geek but they got me using Linux well enough to manage a small network in 3 hours. I think it would take longer for a complete novice. I also know of people who started as novices and joined the organization as volunteers so that they could learn more.

No need to be nasty. I am probably the most positive person who has been posting to you on this topic.

I'm not going to involve myself in a discussion about which system is the best for whom except to say that I have had flirtations with Firefox and Linux and found them annoying to use, but that's just me.

As for Strict's verbiage, I've known Strict since the very earliest days of Aspergia, and in does seem to me the way he says things has become a bit more "strict" and stern in recent years. I expect his manner of speaking in THIS forum towards ME is because he has still never forgiven me for going "under cover" to expose a bunch of thieves and trolls on an old message board and he doubts my motives, sincerity and honesty in trying to provide a legitimate place for Aspies to communicate with one another here.

I know he tends to spar with Maurice over an issue that Maurice has with educational systems, and now here he is trying to dissuade from involving hismelf in a new venture which MIGHT be of some benefit to Aspies.

While I tend to agree that it is not a good idea to flatten and steamroll over an Aspie's desire to help other fellow Aspies, I think if one deletes the sarcasm from Strict's posts, one will see that Strict has provided some good reasons to either not attempt the venture or else to make sure that if is going to attempt the venture that he know what he is doing so it does not become a situation where the blind are leading the blind.

You have every right to state your own opinion on the matter, and in this instance you have been very polite and earnest.

Yet Strict is equally earnest in telling that there are a lot of things is not considering or has not considered during his conceptualization of this project.

I also think Strict is annoyed for a reason you may not see. I will endeavor to explain this now...

I can tell you that Raven and I have this MIC project going and it has taken off, but there was considerable effort involved in getting it to where it is now. The reason it took considerable effort is because we did it honestly, legally, and we didn't take any short cuts.

Twice before I have seen people come to this forum or to one of the inner forums with brainchilds that were founded on an earnest desire to help Aspies, but with either a not so earnest desire to make scads of money off the effort, or a not so earnest attempt to take some immoral short cuts.

I have used a similar fervency to Strict's to torpedo these projects before they took off because I smelled a rat with both of them and I because I thought that they were taking short cuts which were going to land them in trouble somewhere down the road.

Nothing could be more frustrating to see these people gleefully persisting with their endeavors in the face of this constructive criticism to the point where, in one of the two cases, they were endangering the welfare of the people they were supposedly trying to help. (That would have been the case of someone wanting to start a school for kids on the spectrum, and three people this person chose for her board of directors were

1) A fellow (since banned) who by his own admission was denied rights to see his children because a court had decided he was a danger to them. He was also an avid supporter of pot smoking for non-medicinal purposes, something that is illegal on the federal and state level in all states in the US.

2) A fellow who financially took advantage of a member here.

3) A person who asserted the argument that sex between two consenting people was acceptable, even if one of the consenting people was below the age of legal majority and the other was an adult.

She started her school anyway, and those three people are now on her board.

And I was blasted by a few liberal members (which I have since banned) because I was not liberal enough to support a woman who would have such a board of directors for this children's school.

My language became much more like Strict's during the whole argument.)

Conversely, I have offered words of support to those who have attempted to do what they believe is right for autistics even if I was not always in support of every single one of their endeavors. For instance, I support Ari on general principles, but I do not support his protest against Tony Attwood & Co.

I also support YOUR efforts to advocate, but not every single thing you actually do, nor do I support all of your opinions.

At any rate, yes, Strict could be using less sarcasm, but so could all of us at one point or another. I find that Strict tend to be in top form and most informative when he actually posts, and I would rather have him posting his views about these issues than not because taken as a whole, they are spot on. (With the possible exception of his defense of the American auto industry ).

SOMEONE needs to tell it like it is and it might as well be him, and truth to tell, if I COULD speak like he does, I would, but I tend to reign my passions in so as not to scare members away if I can help it.

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[Guest guest]

No intent to derail the discussion into OSS software. I do not have the knowledge or interest in that to participate in that kind of discussion.

Re: Give me some advice part 2

You replied to *MY POST* that had directly to deal with the request for advice, where it only made sense that you were advocating that the computers sold/whatever have open source software used on them, that are recycled, instead of Microsoft products.

That you learned enough in a few hours to manage a small network using Linux *after it has already been installed on all the computers* in a few hours. Well, I'm here to tell you now: that's above the level of knowledge expected of someone that might be in a market for recycled computers, if they bought them because they didn't have the knowledge to build it themselves from used parts, and the level of knowledge required to deal with finding yourself with a computer where not everything is exactly as you want it out of the box when it comes to low-level things (say, installing most software in Linux, including drivers) starts climbing very quickly, just for one version.

You were off, it seems, to derail the thread into an OSS versus Microsoft/proprietary software religious war, away from the topic of the thread of how to recycle computers for a theoretically non-profit entity that trains people, while intended to also profit the organizer(s), and you come charging in and insist that OSS is the solution. Well, no: not everything calls for OSS, as not everything calls for proprietary software, and in the case of the business plan (model, actually: evidence to me is clear that no single business plan has been created, because I can point out so many holes in the issue it makes swiss cheese look like an opaque and solid shield) not only does it not solve the problem, but it ends up creating so many more that would make it the ultimate time/money black hole in terms of learning curve both on the side of the non-profit before selling the machine, as well as for any expectations of technical support required for that machine *after* it was sold/given away. Here's the funny thing: if someone getting trained to do all this at the non-profit was able to manage this all properly, and properly setup all these machines using Linux and all the other OSS software that replaces everything, they'd definitely be employable, if only for their now deep understanding of all the weird Linux package managers and their esoteric commands, as well as all the knowledge of the (most likely) older, varying technology through the many years of the machines, since those things are fairly decent transferable skills, even though I've seen many different generations of memory technology, CPU technology, hard drive technology, optical drive technology, printer technology, printer/similar device technology, networking technology, peripheral bus technology, and a few other new ones that simply didn't exist until recently, come and go. However, that won't necessarily make anyone that's been working with all those machines up-to-date, because it all changes so fast: it won't be long before PCI (the original) is a mystery to most people. "How quaint!" people will say, "Having all the data lanes in parallel? What were they thinking, that slows things down!" It really is entertaining to see things having gone from serial to parallel to serial again, all in the name of speed, and what's more, it's more entertaining to see that, and know exactly why with the limits of the technology of the time that they did that, and see that it actually makes sense how the progression of such things has gone. I'll go out on a limb right now: there's a high chance within the next decade that there will be another major paradigm shift in processor design/implementation. If things are done well enough, the average end-user will be blissfully ignorant of how drastically things have changed under the hood, in the same way that Apple has mostly seamlessly transitioned their operating system and hardware between different microprocessors. However, at the lowest level, it will be a major change for software developers to know how to use this new processor design effectively. For a lot of people, this will end their ability to be productive in the field.

Bah, I have other things I need to do ASAP, this is all for this post.

> > >

> > > "Thanks for the the tips keep them comming"

> > > > > > One other "tip."

> > > > > > I hope if you are selling re-furbished machines that you are also wiping the > > > drives before selling them. If you are re-selling preloaded software that has > > been licensed to someone else, then you are selling pirat

> ed software.

> > > > > > If the drives are clean, now you have a new concern to deal with. > > > > > > Consider how many

> > machines you stand to sell at all. > > > > > > A person would first have to buy your machine, and then buy the software to > > load on the machine. Since you have things like rent and people to pay, you > > would have to sell the machine at a rate that is profitable to you, yet > > competitive with other charities and recycling firms which are doing the same > > thing. And on top of that your client has to pay for software.

> > > > > > So your machine is not going to be too cheap. > > > > > > Now why would anyone want to buy a refurbished machine that is prone to > > breaking down at any time, and purchase new software to load up on this > antique, > > when for the same amount of money or for a few hundred dollars more they can > get > > a brand new low-budget model that could function more reliably, run faster, > and > > with the newest software already installed?

> > > > > > From a business perspective, I would not purchase from you, and from a > > personal perspective I doubt I would unless I was buying something for a child > > > to have to play with. Sort of like how my mom eventually gave me her old IBM > > typewriter to mess around with she upgraded to a newer model when I was a kid. > > > > > > >

> > > Administrator

> > >

> > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------

> > > > Fellowship of the Aspergian Miracle is the last series of message boards > founded > > by an original Aspergia member to carry the Aspergia name with the > > www.aspergia.com website owner's permission. To contact the FAM forum > > administrator, use this e-mail address: FAMSecretSociety-owner

> > > > Check the Links section for more FAM forums. > > > >

[Guest guest]

But what does one do when their apathy, lack of planning, lack of stepping interferes with my own forward progress?

If Aspies are regarded as lazy, dependent, self-serving, egotistical people, why should my life be imposed upon by this sterotype when all Aspies have to do collectively is change the stereotype by being ambitious, self-sufficient, philanthropic, and altruistic?

When this happens, we have to accept that we cannot change other people. We can only change ourselves, possibly in the way we respond to situations or in being more proactive, knowing that other people will not do what we want, even when we see a benefit. People change when they see a benefit to themselves which is greater than the effort which is required to make the change.

I suggest that when people see what you accomplish, you are changing the often self fulfilling prophecy about dependent, unmotivated autistics and by doing this, you are making it easier for others to break out of the stereotype. You might be succeeding in ways that you do not recognize as much as in the achievements you have worked hard on.

Re: Give me some advice part 2

I said:

"Perhaps it is good to have stepping stones so people can make it back to full operational status. But a single low plateau is not enough, nor should it be the apex of our ascent."

You replied:

"Patience in encouraging change is about involving an individual in planning and making small steps towards the goal, but that wont be achieved by nagging and/or negative statements for the vast majority of people."

My reply:

We must indeed accept that if a person does not want to move toward a change, even if it is toward their personal advanatge, we must not press them.

But what does one do when their apathy, lack of planning, lack of stepping interferes with my own forward progress?

If Aspies are regarded as lazy, dependent, self-serving, egotistical people, why should my life be imposed upon by this sterotype when all Aspies have to do collectively is change the stereotype by being ambitious, self-sufficient, philanthropic, and altruistic?

If the lifestyle of other people had no effect on me, then I would not care, but I am sick of having bad stereotypes used to label me before people get a chance to find out who I am and what I can do.

There is truth in stereotypes, and truth in prejudice. If stereotyping and prejudice exists, it is because someone, or a group of people have drawn conclusions based on observed behavior. Sometimes, those conclusions are true. If they are false, then the stereotyped and prejudged individuals are responsible for disproving them.

If I am complaining, moaning, whining, etc., it is because gentle argumentation, logical reasoning, persuasion etc., have all failed, and I have no choice but to express my exasperation at the individuals directly responsible for causing the stereotypes and prejudices they so despise.

You said:

"Some people prefer to and have the capacity do this alone, but many need encouragement and support."

My reply:

After nearly a decade of providing encouragement and support for naught, I have elected to assume that if people are not going to change via encouragement or support, they are not going to change at all, and that the verbiage used to describe them is indeed accurate and fair.

How many more decades would you have me spend encouraging and supporting people if the result is no progress whatsoever?

If I were an elected official, I would have been voted out of office by the end of my first term for my inability to think outside the box and try something different than JUST supporting and encouraging if I did things your way.

You said:

"Patience is also about not giving up on people because they can't meet your expectations."

My reply:

Hmm... Let me get this straight. If 1 in 166 people in the world have autism, that means that around .6% of 1% of the world's population are Aspies, and it means that 99.3 percent of society are NOT autistic. Now if 99.3% of society have expectations of autistics, shouldn't we make some kind of ATTEMPT to meet them to the degree that we can?

Instead what I keep hearing is that the needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many, as though 99.3% of the population of the population needs to meet that .6% of 1%of the population's needs.

It's an absurd assertion. Yes, we need to be accommodated in some ways, but that does not mean we need to sit around and be catered to.

You said:

"Patient education support means that you will involve the other person in breaking down his/her goals into more achievable chunks that might be very small. It also involves the educator/support person putting aside ego in measuring success by the number of "star pupils" he/she has and instead, valuing how far learners have come more than the destination."

My reply:

Agreed, but when the pupils in question are not even interested in learning or achieving, THEN what is an educator to do. I am sure there are plenty of NTs that don't want to be in school either, or learn anything, yet the majority of THEM make the effort. Why can't we?

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