Re: USAGE OF BMCG IN PLACE OF DA CYLINDERS.

[Guest guest]

We have also been approached by a contracting

company 3-4 months back for using the BMCG.

We have requested the approval from their

corporate safety and MSDS, but the same has not been provided till date .

Due to the above the gas is still not allowed.

Regds

D D KALA

From:

indiansafetyprofessionals [mailto:indiansafetyprofessionals ]

On Behalf Of Ramakrishnan_R_RRN

[Chief Manager-Mech]

Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007

4:22 PM

To:

indiansafetyprofessionals

Subject:

USAGE OF BMCG IN PLACE OF DA CYLINDERS.

Dear

Professionals,

Recently

Bharath Gas has approached us for using their Bharath metal Cutting

Gas in the place of DA .

They Have

also given a list of organizations who are using their BMCG . I

request the team to give your feed back about this BMCG. Statute wise is

this accepted. Please reply.

With Kind Regards.

R. Ram Krishnan.

Chief Manager - Mech.,

Madras cements Ltd.,

Ramasamy Raja Nagar – 626204,

Tel : 04562-256201, Extn: 330, 430.

Fax : 04562-256268.

[Guest guest]

Bharat Cutting Gas is nothing but LPG with some added additives to improve the cutting efficiency. Everything else including safety aspects, cylinder thickness, capacity are the same as that of LPG cylinders. There is nothing special in BCG wrt safety aspects.

Hence it is not advisable to use BCG in industrial applications. Bharat Petroleum have obtained a certificate from Welding Research Institute, BHEL, Trichy wrt its cutting efficiency.

Apart from this, they do not possess any other testing / safety certificates.

BCG only provides monetary benefit when compared to DA. Hence it is advisable only to use DA cylinders for gas cutting purposes.

regards

Haricharan

USAGE OF BMCG IN PLACE OF DA CYLINDERS.

Dear Professionals,

Recently Bharath Gas has approached us for using their Bharath metal Cutting Gas in the place of DA .

They Have also given a list of organizations who are using their BMCG . I request the team to give your feed back about this BMCG. Statute wise is this accepted. Please reply.

With Kind Regards.

R. Ram Krishnan.

Chief Manager - Mech.,

Madras cements Ltd.,

Ramasamy Raja Nagar – 626204,

Tel : 04562-256201, Extn: 330, 430.

Fax : 04562-256268.

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the updation Mr.HaricharanIn my factory, I have totallybanned using LPG as cutting gas and taken care by our Safety committeeand security... Inward / storage / supply are regulatedwith a system. P Subramani " Haricharan " Sent by: indiansafetyprofessionals 08/29/2007 05:51 PMTo " Ramakrishnan_R_RRN [Chief Manager-Mech] " cc<indiansafetyprofessionals >SubjectRe: USAGEOF BMCG IN PLACE OF DA CYLINDERS.Bharat Cutting Gas is nothing but LPGwith some added additives to improve the cutting efficiency. Everythingelse including safety aspects, cylinder thickness, capacity are the sameas that of LPG cylinders. There is nothing special in BCG wrt safety aspects.Hence it is not advisable to use BCGin industrial applications. Bharat Petroleum have obtained a certificatefrom Welding Research Institute, BHEL, Trichy wrt its cutting efficiency.Apart from this, they do not possessany other testing / safety certificates. BCG only provides monetary benefitwhen compared to DA. Hence it is advisable only to use DA cylinders forgas cutting purposes. regardsHaricharan USAGE OF BMCGIN PLACE OF DA CYLINDERS.Dear Professionals,Recently Bharath Gas has approachedus for using their Bharath metal Cutting Gas in the placeof DA .They Have also given a list of organizationswho are using their BMCG . I request the team to give yourfeed back about this BMCG. Statute wise is this accepted. Please reply.With Kind Regards.R. Ram Krishnan.Chief Manager - Mech.,Madras cements Ltd.,Ramasamy Raja Nagar – 626204,Tel: 04562-256201, Extn: 330,430.Fax : 04562-256268.

[Guest guest]

Dear Mr. Subramani et al, Thanks for your mail(s). Any special reason for "banning" LPG usage in your factory? I think that the advantages of LPG vis-a- vis cost issues should also be factored in while deciding. What are the safety issue(s) perceived against usage of LPG? I would be thankful to know about it so that I can clarify / chip in(should I be able to do so). Regards, Venkatesh Chevron (Caltex) Gas India Pvt Ltd., psm@... wrote: Thanks for the updation Mr.Haricharan In my factory, I have totally banned using LPG as cutting gas and taken care by our Safety committee and security... Inward / storage / supply are regulated with a system. P Subramani "Haricharan" <kh@....co.in> Sent by: indiansafetyprofessionals 08/29/2007 05:51 PM To "Ramakrishnan_R_RRN [Chief Manager-Mech]" <rrkmadrascements (DOT) co.in> cc <indiansafetyprofessionals > Subject Re: USAGE OF BMCG IN PLACE OF DA CYLINDERS. Bharat Cutting Gas is nothing but LPG with some added additives to improve the cutting efficiency. Everything else including safety aspects,

cylinder thickness, capacity are the same as that of LPG cylinders. There is nothing special in BCG wrt safety aspects. Hence it is not advisable to use BCG in industrial applications. Bharat Petroleum have obtained a certificate from Welding Research Institute, BHEL, Trichy wrt its cutting efficiency. Apart from this, they do not possess any other testing / safety certificates. BCG only provides monetary benefit when compared to DA. Hence it is advisable only to use DA cylinders for gas cutting purposes. regards Haricharan USAGE OF BMCG IN PLACE OF DA CYLINDERS. Dear Professionals, Recently Bharath Gas has approached us for using their Bharath metal Cutting Gas in the place of DA . They Have also given a list of organizations who are using their BMCG . I request the team to give your feed back about this BMCG. Statute wise is this accepted. Please reply. With Kind Regards. R. Ram Krishnan. Chief Manager - Mech., Madras cements Ltd., Ramasamy Raja Nagar – 626204, Tel : 04562-256201, Extn: 330, 430. Fax : 04562-256268. Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

[Guest guest]

Dear Mr. Venkatesh,

The following are some of the safety issues associated with respect to the use of LPG cylinder for industrial applications.

1. High Expansion ratio, (Approx. 250 times in volume) Risk is high; Expansion ratio is less for Acetylene. So comparatively lower risk.

2. LPG being heavier than air will settle down in case of leakage posing greater risk of catching fire or even explosion. Relative Density - 1.9 To 2.1 (Heavier than Air) Varies depending upon the composition.

3. LPG has very low dispersion rate, which can lead to UVCE (Unconfined Vapour Cloud Explosion) kind of explosion.

4. LPG cylinders are constructed of thin walled MS sheet making it more vulnerable to heat up easily in case of any spark falling on/over the cylinder (For thickness values please refer LIQUEFIED PETROLEUM GAS REGULATION OF SUPPLY AND DISTRIBUTION) ORDER 2000.

5. No approved regulators are available in the market for LPG to be used in industrial applications.

6. LPG can get trapped in the cable trays / sumps in floor level because of its density.

7. Ability to burn and ignite as a deflagration. Fire can initiate and flash back and reach the leaking source. Reports have suggested Ignition sources as far as 200m from source of gas leakage.

8. Higher Burning Velocity (0.38 m/s). More than that of Acetylene.

9. Most importantly - All acetylene cylinders have a fusible plug at the bottom of the cylinder which prevents a BLEVE (Boiling liquid expanding vapour explosion) situation by blowing and emptying the cylinder contents if the pressure exceeds the preset value. This is very much absent in LPG cylinders.

Also it is illegal to use domestic LPG cylinders (14.2Kg) for purposes other than domestic use. It is very difficult to monitor the and distinguish the LPG cylinders, especially the 19 Kg ones once they are old and the paint is worn off. Many 14.5 kg domestic ones do slip in unnoticed since contractors go in for the cheaper domestic ones given at subsidy. This is a real practical issue apart from the ones motioned above.

Considering the above, it is advisable to use DA cylinders for industrial applications rather than LPG or BCG.

With regards

K.Haricharan

USAGE OF BMCG IN PLACE OF DA CYLINDERS.

Dear Professionals, Recently Bharath Gas has approached us for using their Bharath metal Cutting Gas in the place of DA . They Have also given a list of organizations who are using their BMCG . I request the team to give your feed back about this BMCG. Statute wise is this accepted. Please reply.

With Kind Regard s. R. Ram Krishnan. Chief Manager - Mech., Madras cements Ltd., Ramasamy Raja Nagar – 626204, Tel : 04562-256201, Extn: 330, 430. Fax : 04562-256268.

Send instant messages to your online friends htt! p://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

[Guest guest]

Dear all,Can anybody comment on this followingexplanation given by Mr.Haricharan ( my friend & collegue) ? Iwish to add some experience to this conversation.Apart from all the technical reasons,I had practical problems also.1. The contractors were very muchlethargic in using and throwing the LPG ( either empty or Full ) allover the place . And they were lying unnoticed.2. The contractors have to paypremium for getting one DA cylinder. So they use LPG cylinders belongingto the company. 3. The contractors misuse thecylinders while handling by soaking in hot water / sitting on the cylinder( of course on a wooden plank) / etc.,4. LPG cylinders located awayfrom the o2 cylinder , ( Controllability getting difficult )5. Using unbranded regulatorsin the Cylinders.6. Some times using the LPG andsometimes using Acytelene, ( Confusion while interchanging hoses) etc.,To get away from all these kind of issues,I have decided to ban. More over the Cost factor always not a factoror compromise in our company rather than safety Regards,P Subramani " Haricharan " Sent by: indiansafetyprofessionals 08/30/2007 12:35 PMTo " Venkatesh R " cc<indiansafetyprofessionals >, " Ramakrishnan_R_RRN [Chief Manager-Mech] " SubjectRe: Re:USAGE OF BMCG IN PLACE OF DA CYLINDERS.Dear Mr. Venkatesh,The following are some of the safetyissues associated with respect to the use of LPG cylinder for industrialapplications.1. High Expansion ratio, (Approx. 250times in volume) Risk is high; Expansion ratio is less for Acetylene. Socomparatively lower risk.2. LPG being heavier than air willsettle down in case of leakage posing greater risk of catching fire oreven explosion. Relative Density - 1.9 To 2.1 (Heavier than Air) Variesdepending upon the composition.3. LPG has very low dispersion rate,which can lead to UVCE (Unconfined Vapour Cloud Explosion) kind of explosion.4. LPG cylinders are constructed ofthin walled MS sheet making it more vulnerable to heat up easily in caseof any spark falling on/over the cylinder (For thickness values pleaserefer LIQUEFIED PETROLEUM GAS REGULATION OF SUPPLY AND DISTRIBUTION)ORDER 2000.5. No approved regulators are availablein the market for LPG to be used in industrial applications.6. LPG can get trapped in the cabletrays / sumps in floor level because of its density.7. Ability to burn and ignite as adeflagration. Fire can initiate and flash back and reach the leaking source.Reports have suggested Ignition sources as far as 200m from source of gasleakage.8. Higher Burning Velocity (0.38 m/s).More than that of Acetylene.9. Mostimportantly - All acetylenecylinders have a fusible plug at the bottom of the cylinder which preventsa BLEVE (Boiling liquid expanding vapour explosion) situation by blowingand emptying the cylinder contents if the pressure exceeds the preset value.This is very much absent in LPG cylinders. Also it is illegal to use domesticLPG cylinders (14.2Kg) for purposes other than domestic use. It is verydifficult to monitor the and distinguish the LPG cylinders, especiallythe 19 Kg ones once they are old and the paint is worn off. Many 14.5 kgdomestic ones do slip in unnoticed since contractors go in for thecheaper domestic ones given at subsidy. This is a real practical issueapart from the ones motioned above. Considering the above, it is advisableto use DA cylinders for industrial applications rather than LPG or BCG. With regardsK.Haricharan USAGE OF BMCG IN PLACE OF DA CYLINDERS.Dear Professionals,Recently Bharath Gas has approachedus for using their Bharath metal Cutting Gas in the placeof DA . They Have also given a list of organizationswho are using their BMCG . I request the team to give yourfeed back about this BMCG. Statute wise is this accepted. Please reply.With Kind Regard s.R. Ram Krishnan.Chief Manager - Mech.,Madras cements Ltd.,Ramasamy Raja Nagar –626204, Tel: 04562-256201, Extn: 330,430. Fax : 04562-256268.Send instant messages to your online friends htt! p://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

[Guest guest]

Dear Mr.Haricharan & Mr.Venkatesh, For your info. please. U.S.Department of Safety1.Pure acetylene under pressure in excess of about 15 psi or in liquid or solid form explodes with extreme violence.-(Incase of improper flow of gas regulator could be a very common problem)2.Mixtures of air and acetylene are explosive over a wide range, from about 2.5 percent air in acetylene to about 12.5 percent acetylene in air.- (Either of the proportion mixture could be formed with less possibility)3.The combustion of acetylene produces a large amount of heat, and, in a properly designed torch, the oxyacetylene flame attains the highest flame temperature (about 6,000° F, or 3,300° C) of any known mixture of combustible gases.4.The hydrogen atoms in acetylene can be replaced by metallic elements to form acetylides--e.g., acetylides of silver, copper, or sodium.- ( Incase of getting contact with above metals, would be a explosion due to reaction).Shell GasOxy-propane cutting is far superior to traditional oxy-acetylene cutting in a number of ways. For a start there is no risk of over-heating or blow-back. It also offers a nearer cut with subscription, thanks to a stable flame of up to 2000 degrees centigrade, which cannot be accidentally extinguished. The other main advantage over oxy-acetylene, is it's quite often much cheaper. Boiling Point of Acetylene is much lesser than propane(LPG).Acetylene cylinder explosion (HSE.Gov.UK.) An operator was lighting an oxy/acetylene cutting torch. There was a flashback to the acetylene cylinder, which started to vibrate. Three minutes later the cylinder exploded. The cylinder split into two parts. The largest part shot through a window and travelled 23 metres before embedding itself in an embankment at the factory boundary. The workshop was badly damaged. The windows were blown out and the roof collapsed. The explosion also lifted the roof of the main factory building, which had to be replaced. The cost of the damage was over £1 million. ( Due to unstable property and rapid rate of decomposition) Decomposition can be triggered more easily and can proceed more rapidly if:■ the porous mass has been damaged by repeated flashbacks or by mishandlingor dropping the cylinder;■ the cylinder valve is leaking gas (an open or leaking valve increases the rate ofdecomposition within the cylinder); or■ the acetylene in the hoses is above the pressure recommended by the supplier.For most welding and cutting processes, the acetylene pressure should notexceed 0.62 bar (9psi). We can't bypass and kept side a set of product without a proper absolute reason. It does not mean that a I-Section of 400kg should not fall on a acetylene. If we handle even a non-hazardous gas(Inert Gas) without care it could also lead us to an untoward circumstances . In future, the LPG may become a full substitution of acetylene( like halon ). At that particular point of time we have to go with it by altering the existence as per our requirements. With RegardsK.BubeshBPCL Re: Re: USAGE OF BMCG IN PLACE OF DA CYLINDERS.Dear Mr. Venkatesh, Everyone knows that if acetylene explodes it is serious safety concern. For that matter even if it is not flammable gas/liquid (N2, Argon etc)., it is serious!. I would request you to refute all the nine facts that were mentioned by me point by point on why I am against industrial use of LPG (so is the case with many companies! Atleast in out TVS Group if not elsewhere). Now answering to your question: 'What has burning rate velocity got to do with LPG being less safe wrt acetylene?' It has definitely got a relation. It is directly proportional to the amount deflagration (Combustion that propagates through a gas or along the surface of an explosive at a rapid rate driven by the transfer of heat). Higher the burning velocity, larger will be the deflagration. Larger the deflagration, larger will be the damage. Have I answered your question!. Correct me if I am wrong. Mr. Venkatesh, Mr.Bubesh do you know what will happen if a 200 Kg I-section falls on a full LPG from a height of 1m? Will its structure withstand? I had seen a fatal accident of the above nature in my previous company when a non domestic, 19.5 Kg LPG cylinder ruptured. The cylinder ruptured because of its flimsy mechanical strength. All I say here is, being thicker and sturdier in construction, the DA will fare in such untoward circumstances and the incident could have been avoided had DA been used. To your answer: 'There are approved regulators for commercial use of LPG'. Please show me a regulator that confirms to IS 9798 specification having an inlet diameter of 25.6 mm. To my knowledge there are none. Correct me if I am wrong. Thus, in my opinion, though statutorily it is not a violation to use LPG cylinders or for that matter BCG (except for 14.5 Kg Domestic LPG cylinder), it is not wise to use LPG cylinders for industrial applications. Hence we have stopped using and allowing LPG cylinders within the TVS Group. Infact, I wish to say to this forum that we provide cutting sets, Oxygen and DA cylinders to our contractors so that the safety aspects are better and are under control. I also, want to convey here that I am not against LPG or BCG's. Its only because of their safety concerns that I am against their use. Also please find LPG (Regulation of Supply and Distribution) Order 2000 attached herewith for your reference. With regardsK.Haricharan USAGE OF BMCG IN PLACE OF DA CYLINDERS. Dear Professionals, Recently Bharath Gas has approached us for using their Bharath metal Cutting Gas in the place of DA . They Have also given a list of organizations who are using their BMCG . I request the team to give your feed back about this BMCG. Statute wise is this accepted. Please reply. With Kind Regard s. R. Ram Krishnan. Chief Manager - Mech., Madras cements Ltd., Ramasamy Raja Nagar – 626204, Tel : 04562-256201, Extn: 330, 430. Fax : 04562-256268. Send instant messages to your online friends htt! p://uk.messenger.yahoo.com Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ********************************Disclaimer*******************************The information contained in this message is BPCL's Confidential and Proprietary information and is intended only for the use of the recipient(s) named above. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, he/she is hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication or any of its content is strictly prohibited. In such case, please advise the sender immediately and delete it from your system. Further acknowledge that any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and no binding nature of the message shall be implied or assumed unless the sender does so expressly with due authority of BPCL.***********************************************************************

[Guest guest]

Dear All,

It is an interesting & meaningful

discussion.

Use of LPG & acetylene is similar

to use of Road way or Railway for travel to a destination.

Both have plus & minus points &

are used by every one.

Similarly the Use of LPG & acetylene.

Let us not be Emotional.

Thanks to all for the good learning

on the topic,

Best regards,

___________________________________________________

B S Gopala Krishna

Manager - ESH,

Mgt. Rep. EMS, ISO 14001/OHSAS 18001,

Volvo India private ltd, Phase 1, Peenya Industrial area,

Bangalore 560 058

Tel : - (080) 22192 638, Ext 638, Mobile: 9342 16 18

17

Fax : - (080) 2839 4651, Email : - b_s_gopalakrishna@...

" bubesh "

Sent by: indiansafetyprofessionals

08/30/2007 11:55 PM

To

" Haricharan " ,

" Venkatesh R "

cc

" ISP " <indiansafetyprofessionals >,

Subject

RE: Re:

USAGE OF BMCG IN PLACE OF DA CYLINDERS.

Dear Mr.Haricharan & Mr.Venkatesh,

For your

info. please.

U.S.Department of

Safety

1.Pure acetylene under pressure

in excess of about 15 psi or in liquid or solid form explodes with extreme

violence.-(Incase

of improper flow of gas regulator could be a very common problem)

2.Mixtures of air and acetylene

are explosive over a wide range, from about 2.5 percent air in acetylene

to about 12.5 percent acetylene in air.- (Either

of the proportion mixture could be formed with less possibility)

3.The combustion of acetylene produces

a large amount of heat, and, in a properly designed torch, the oxyacetylene

flame attains the highest flame temperature (about 6,000° F, or 3,300°

C) of any known mixture of combustible gases.

4.The hydrogen atoms in acetylene

can be replaced by metallic elements to form acetylides--e.g., acetylides

of silver, copper, or sodium.- (

Incase of getting contact with above metals, would be a explosion due to

reaction).

Shell Gas

Oxy-propane cutting is far superior

to traditional oxy-acetylene cutting in a number of ways. For a start there

is no risk of over-heating or blow-back. It also offers a nearer cut with

subscription, thanks to a stable flame of up to 2000 degrees centigrade,

which cannot be accidentally extinguished. The other main advantage over

oxy-acetylene, is it's quite often much cheaper.

Boiling Point of Acetylene is much

lesser than propane(LPG).

Acetylene cylinder explosion

(HSE.Gov.UK.)

An operator was lighting an oxy/acetylene

cutting torch. There was a flashback to the acetylene cylinder, which started

to vibrate. Three minutes later the cylinder exploded. The cylinder split

into two parts. The largest part shot through a window and travelled 23

metres before embedding itself in an embankment at the factory boundary.

The workshop was badly damaged. The windows were blown out and the roof

collapsed. The explosion also lifted the roof of the main factory building,

which had to be replaced. The cost of the damage was over £1 million. (

Due to unstable property and rapid rate of decomposition)

Decomposition can be triggered more

easily and can proceed more rapidly if:

■ the porous mass has been damaged

by repeated flashbacks or by mishandling

or dropping the cylinder;

■ the cylinder valve is leaking gas

(an open or leaking valve increases the rate

of

decomposition within the

cylinder); or

■ the acetylene in the hoses is above

the pressure recommended by the supplier.

For most welding and cutting processes,

the acetylene pressure should not

exceed 0.62 bar (9psi).

We can't bypass and kept side a set

of product without a proper absolute reason. It does not mean that a I-Section

of 400kg should not fall on a acetylene. If we handle even a non-hazardous

gas(Inert Gas) without care it could also lead us to an untoward

circumstances . In future,

the LPG may become a full substitution of acetylene( like halon ). At that

particular point of time we have to go with it by altering the existence

as per our requirements.

With Regards

K.Bubesh

BPCL

Re: Re: USAGE OF BMCG IN PLACE

OF DA CYLINDERS.

Dear Mr. Venkatesh,

Everyone

knows that if acetylene explodes it is serious safety concern. For that

matter even if it is not flammable gas/liquid (N2, Argon etc)., it is serious!.

I would request you to refute all

the nine facts that were mentioned by me point by point on why I am against

industrial use of LPG (so is the case with many companies! Atleast in out

TVS Group if not elsewhere).

Now answering to your question: 'What

has burning rate velocity got to do with LPG being less safe wrt acetylene?'

It has definitely got a relation.

It is directly proportional to the amount deflagration (Combustion that

propagates through a gas or along the surface of an explosive at a rapid

rate driven by the transfer of heat). Higher the burning velocity,

larger will be the deflagration. Larger the deflagration, larger will be

the damage. Have I answered your question!. Correct me if I am wrong.

Mr. Venkatesh, Mr.Bubesh do you know

what will happen if a 200 Kg I-section falls on a full LPG from a height

of 1m? Will its structure withstand? I had seen a fatal accident of the

above nature in my previous company when a non domestic, 19.5 Kg LPG cylinder

ruptured. The cylinder ruptured because of its flimsy mechanical strength.

All I say here is, being thicker and sturdier in construction, the DA will

fare in such untoward circumstances and the incident could have been avoided

had DA been used.

To your answer: 'There are

approved regulators for commercial use of LPG'. Please show me a regulator

that confirms to IS 9798 specification having an inlet diameter of 25.6

mm. To my knowledge there are none. Correct me if I am wrong.

Thus, in my opinion, though statutorily

it is not a violation to use LPG cylinders or for that matter BCG (except

for 14.5 Kg Domestic LPG cylinder), it is not wise to use LPG cylinders

for industrial applications. Hence we have stopped using and allowing LPG

cylinders within the TVS Group.

Infact, I wish to say to this forum

that we provide cutting sets, Oxygen and DA cylinders to our contractors

so that the safety aspects are better and are under control.

I also, want to convey here that I

am not against LPG or BCG's. Its only because of their safety concerns

that I am against their use.

Also please find LPG (Regulation

of Supply and Distribution) Order 2000 attached herewith for your reference.

With regards

K.Haricharan

USAGE OF BMCG IN PLACE OF DA CYLINDERS.

Dear Professionals,

Recently Bharath Gas has approached

us for using their Bharath metal Cutting Gas in the place

of DA .

They Have also given a list of organizations

who are using their BMCG . I request the team to give your

feed back about this BMCG. Statute wise is this accepted. Please reply.

With Kind Regard s.

R. Ram Krishnan.

Chief Manager - Mech.,

Madras cements Ltd.,

Ramasamy Raja Nagar –

626204,

Tel

: 04562-256201, Extn: 330,

430.

Fax : 04562-256268.

Send instant messages to your online friends htt! p://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

********************************Disclaimer*******************************

The information contained in this message is BPCL's Confidential

and Proprietary information and is intended only for the use of the recipient(s)

named above. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient,

he/she is hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, or

copying of this communication or any of its content is strictly prohibited.

In such case, please advise the sender immediately and delete it from your

system. Further acknowledge that any views expressed in this message

are those of the individual sender and no binding nature of the message

shall be implied or assumed unless the sender does so expressly with due

authority of BPCL.

***********************************************************************

The information contained in this message is privileged and intended only for the recipient names. If the reader is not a representative of the intended recipient, any review, dissemination or copying of this message or the information it contains is prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please immediately notify the sender, and delete the original message and attachments.

[Guest guest]

Dear Friends I am Raghu.T , very new to this group working as Safety Officer in Integral Coach Factory , Chennai. The discussion on D.A. Vs. LPG is thought provoking. Thanks all for the inputs, particularly Mr. Subramani,Mr.Venkatesh, Mr. Haricharan, Mr.Bhupesh . #) Is there any specs for tinted glasses used during Oxy-Acetylene cutting, if so please help me with sources too. I would like to share one Near Miss . A grinding wheel of size 20’’ x 3’’ broke in to pieces and flew around to a maximum distance of 25 meters, breaking the wheel guard and throwing one portion of the guard along with 3,4 broken pieces. It is a face grinding wheel of Vitrified bond mounted in one side of a double end grinder. Leaving out the possibility of an unsafe act of an operator leaving some job to foul with the wheel movement, what are the possibilities for the wheel to break .Vitrified wheels

doesn’t have any shelf life, as per literature and suppliers also insist the same. Please share your ideas. Regards Raghu.T_,_._,___

Get the freedom to save as many mails as you wish. Click here to know how.

[Guest guest]

Dear All,

In my view, we all have started banning the use of lpg in industry because lpg was normally a subsidised gas meant for domestic purpose.

It is illegal and unethical from the socio-economic point of view, hence we do not allow the domestic lpg for cutting in industry.

At Visteon, we are storing 66 Tonnes of LPG for manufacturing purpose.

Just because there is a hazard, if we want to avoid using a particular material, we need to ban even WATER. I mean WATER.

As professionals, we need to identify the risk, evaluate the risk and insist for implementing the appropriate control methods and allow the industry to perform its functions with safety.

I generally discourage the use of lpg in our premises but when it is warranted, I do allow the use of Industrial LPG for these purposes with additional precautions but only limited occasions.

May be 1 or 2 times in a year. This gets recorded in our deviation register too.

Make sure that the Gas Cylinder is below the level of Cutting plane, inspect the tube etc

Fire is a Hazard- Are we stopping cooking and eating?

I have visited the IOCL Bottling Unit at Maduranthakam personally. I found certain facts from them that the Cylinders that we are using for domestic purpose are much safer than the international standards. Our Domestic Gas Cylinders, thickness etc will not vary and they are quiet safe to use even in the Industry also.(As I have expressed above, it is because of the subsidy it suffers, we do not use these cylinders for industrial purpose).

There are some other risks with regard to LPG usage in the Industry.

In a construction site, they may use it for any other purpose - Heating the Water, Making Coffee, Cooking food etc which are not intended to. Using lpg haphzardly will lead to loss of control on the risks and such negligence may lead to disastrous effect in an industry.

Where as with DA, using DA for these kind of miscellanoeus activities is not possible - I believe.

It is not the hazard/ risk that determines the ban of using lpg/acetylene in an industry- There are several other factors like Discipline, Socio economic reasons, legal requirements etc.

Please correct me if I am wrong

Regards

Suresh

[indiansafetyprofes sionals] USAGE OF BMCG IN PLACE OF DA CYLINDERS.

Dear Professionals,

Recently Bharath Gas has approached us for using their Bharath metal Cutting Gas in the place of DA .

They Have also given a list of organizations who are using their BMCG . I request the team to give your feed back about this BMCG. Statute wise is this accepted. Please reply.

With Kind Regards.

R. Ram Krishnan.

Chief Manager - Mech.,

Madras cements Ltd.,

Ramasamy Raja Nagar – 626204,

Tel : 04562-256201, Extn: 330, 430.

Fax : 04562-256268.

Why delete messages? Unlimited storage is just a click away.

[Guest guest]

"It is not the hazard/ risk that determines the ban of using LPG/Acetylene in an industry- There are several other factors like Discipline, Socio economic reasons, legal requirements etc."

Being a safety professional I beg to differ from your above statement. To me its definitely the Hazard/Risk involved with a particular material when it comes to prohibition of the same.

All other factors such as socio economic reasons, legal requirements, discipline etc.; though they may play a major role, they are secondary.

My only contention here is, why should we use a hazardous material such as LPG for gas cutting operations (not for cooking, heating, tea preparation etc and other miscellaneous activities as mentioned in your mail) when we have a safer one in the form of DA.

Also, I feel that bulk storage LPG in bullets or spheres where you have a hydrant systems, sprinkler systems and a detection systems is totally different from that of handling the same in cylinders be it domestic or non domestic.

As far as I am concerned, I have clearly stated to this forum why the use of LPG cylinder in industrial operations is unwelcome and why in our TVS Group we have prohibited the same. You may please refer the below attachment.

I would like to clarify here that as per Indian Law it is not illegal to use LPG cylinders for industrial applications except for domestic cylinders which is given at a subsidy rate by the Govt. of India. When the almost the whole world banned the use of DDT, we (India) did not do so!. Why? The same Socio-Economics!

Finally it is for individual companies and their managements to decide on which comes fore most; socio-economics, monetary benefits or safety.

With regards

K Haricharan

Asst. Manager Safety & Env.

Sundram Fasteners Limited

Padi

Chennai

Haricharan wrote:

Dear Mr. Venkatesh,

The following are some of the safety issues associated with respect to the use of LPG cylinder for industrial applications.

1. High Expansion ratio, (Approx. 250 times in volume) Risk is high; Expansion ratio is less for Acetylene. So comparatively lower risk.

2. LPG being heavier than air will settle down in case of leakage posing greater risk of catching fire or even explosion. Relative Density - 1.9 To 2.1 (Heavier than Air) Varies depending upon the composition.

3. LPG has very low dispersion rate, which can lead to UVCE (Unconfined Vapour Cloud Explosion) kind of explosion.

4. LPG cylinders are constructed of thin walled MS sheet making it more vulnerable to heat up easily in case of any spark falling on/over the cylinder (For thickness values please refer LIQUEFIED PETROLEUM GAS REGULATION OF SUPPLY AND DISTRIBUTION) ORDER 2000.

5. No approved regulators are available in the market for LPG to be used in industrial applications.

6. LPG can get trapped in the cable trays / sumps in floor level because of its density.

7. Ability to burn and ignite as a deflagration. Fire can initiate and flash back and reach the leaking source. Reports have suggested Ignition sources as far as 200m from source of gas leakage.

8. Higher Burning Velocity (0.38 m/s). More than that of Acetylene.

9. Most importantly - All acetylene cylinders have a fusible plug at the bottom of the cylinder which prevents a BLEVE (Boiling liquid expanding vapour explosion) situation by blowing and emptying the cylinder contents if the pressure exceeds the preset value. This is very much absent in LPG cylinders.

Considering the above, it is advisable to use DA cylinders for industrial applications rather than LPG or BCG.

With regards

K.Haricharan

[indiansafetyprofes sionals] USAGE OF BMCG IN PLACE OF DA CYLINDERS.

Dear Professionals,

Recently Bharath Gas has approached us for using their Bharath metal Cutting Gas in the place of DA .

They Have also given a list of organizations who are using their BMCG . I request the team to give your feed back about this BMCG. Statute wise is this accepted. Please reply.

With Kind Regards.

R. Ram Krishnan.

Chief Manager - Mech.,

Madras cements Ltd.,

Ramasamy Raja Nagar – 626204,

Tel : 04562-256201, Extn: 330, 430.

Fax : 04562-256268.

Why delete messages? Unlimited storage is just a click away.

[Guest guest]

Team

We had detailed discussion sometime back (during July 2006) and most of the points are getting repeated. I would like to narrate my personal experience:

In one of the earlier companies where I was working, we had a fire in which DA cylinders caught fire. The fire was intense and after extinguishing the fire, when we inspected DA cylinders, we could find that the fusible plug got melted and thus prevented cylinders from exploding.

Just imagine LPG cylinders there!

So for industrial applications, DA wins in terms of safety. The other safety devices such as pressure regulators and pressure gauges, FBA etc makes it more safer.

We often hear LPG cylinder explosions....but not DA cylinder mishaps.

Regards

" It is not the hazard/ risk that determines the ban of using LPG/Acetylene in an industry- There are several other factors like Discipline, Socio economic reasons, legal requirements etc. "

Being a safety professional I beg to differ from your above statement. To me its definitely the Hazard/Risk involved with a particular material when it comes to prohibition of the same.

All other factors such as socio economic reasons, legal requirements, discipline etc.; though they may play a major role, they are secondary.

My only contention here is, why should we use a hazardous material such as LPG for gas cutting operations (not for cooking, heating, tea preparation etc and other miscellaneous activities as mentioned in your mail) when we have a safer one in the form of DA.

Also, I feel that bulk storage LPG in bullets or spheres where you have a hydrant systems, sprinkler systems and a detection systems is totally different from that of handling the same in cylinders be it domestic or non domestic.

As far as I am concerned, I have clearly stated to this forum why the use of LPG cylinder in industrial operations is unwelcome and why in our TVS Group we have prohibited the same. You may please refer the below attachment.

I would like to clarify here that as per Indian Law it is not illegal to use LPG cylinders for industrial applications except for domestic cylinders which is given at a subsidy rate by the Govt. of India. When the almost the whole world banned the use of DDT, we (India) did not do so!. Why? The same Socio-Economics!

Finally it is for individual companies and their managements to decide on which comes fore most; socio-economics, monetary benefits or safety.

With regards

K Haricharan

Asst. Manager Safety & Env.

Sundram Fasteners Limited

Padi

Chennai

Haricharan <

kh@....co.in> wrote:

Dear Mr. Venkatesh,

The following are some of the safety issues associated with respect to the use of LPG cylinder for industrial applications.

1. High Expansion ratio, (Approx. 250 times in volume) Risk is high; Expansion ratio is less for Acetylene. So comparatively lower risk.

2. LPG being heavier than air will settle down in case of leakage posing greater risk of catching fire or even explosion. Relative Density - 1.9 To 2.1

(Heavier than Air) Varies depending upon the composition.

3. LPG has very low dispersion rate, which can lead to UVCE (Unconfined Vapour Cloud Explosion) kind of explosion.

4. LPG cylinders are constructed of thin walled MS sheet making it more vulnerable to heat up easily in case of any spark falling on/over the cylinder (For thickness values please refer LIQUEFIED PETROLEUM GAS REGULATION OF SUPPLY AND DISTRIBUTION) ORDER 2000.

5. No approved regulators are available in the market for LPG to be used in industrial applications.

6. LPG can get trapped in the cable trays / sumps in floor level because of its density.

7. Ability to burn and ignite as a deflagration. Fire can initiate and flash back and reach the leaking source. Reports have suggested Ignition sources as far as 200m from source of gas leakage.

8. Higher Burning Velocity (0.38 m/s). More than that of Acetylene.

9. Most importantly - All acetylene cylinders have a fusible plug at the bottom of the cylinder which prevents a BLEVE (Boiling liquid expanding vapour explosion) situation by blowing and emptying the cylinder contents if the pressure exceeds the preset value. This is very much absent in LPG cylinders.

Considering the above, it is advisable to use DA cylinders for industrial applications rather than LPG or BCG.

With regards

K.Haricharan

[indiansafetyprofes sionals] USAGE OF BMCG IN PLACE OF DA CYLINDERS.

Dear Professionals,

Recently Bharath Gas has approached us for using their Bharath metal Cutting Gas in the place of DA .

They Have also given a list of organizations who are using their BMCG . I request the team to give your feed back about this BMCG. Statute wise is this accepted. Please reply.

With Kind Regards.

R. Ram Krishnan

..

Chief Manager - Mech.,

Madras

cements Ltd.,

Ramasamy Raja Nagar – 626204,

Tel

: 04562-256201, Extn: 330, 430.

Fax : 04562-256268.

Why delete messages? Unlimited storage is

just a click away.

-- K.PANCHAPAKESAN

[Guest guest]

I agree with all contents;

Thanks for bringing more clarity on this issue.

These kind of issues can be discussed elaborately and any number of times because it is the core of safety.

This discussion helped me to further strengthen our procedures and document the same for my requirements at our company.

Thanks to the forum

Regards

Suram Suresh

[indiansafetyprofes sionals] USAGE OF BMCG IN PLACE OF DA CYLINDERS.

Dear Professionals,

Recently Bharath Gas has approached us for using their Bharath metal Cutting Gas in the place of DA .

They Have also given a list of organizations who are using their BMCG . I request the team to give your feed back about this BMCG. Statute wise is this accepted. Please reply.

With Kind Regards.

R. Ram Krishnan .

Chief Manager - Mech.,

Madras cements Ltd.,

Ramasamy Raja Nagar – 626204,

Tel : 04562-256201, Extn: 330, 430.

Fax : 04562-256268.

Why delete messages? Unlimited storage is just a click away.

-- K.PANCHAPAKESAN

DELETE button is history. Unlimited mail storage is just a click away.

[Guest guest]

Dear Mr.Suresh,

Traditionally in our country, cutting of metal / sheets has always been done using the cutting tools and we slowly switch over to Oxy- Acetylene mixture when it hits the market. And it got recognized widely in the commercial market as a monopoly in nature at that particular point of time.

'Necessity is the need of innovation' and Bharat Petroleum understood the same based on requirements put by various industries and our R & D department came up with Bharat Cutting gas as a successful replacement of Acetylene.

Described as an economical, effective and safer substitute for dissolved acetylene, which most industrial units use, and the product is also useful for industrial applications, especially in the unorganised sector, where there is misuse of subsidised cooking gas.

Bharat Cutting gas is a Hydrocarbon based and is fortified with additive. Its salient features are:

1. Achieves flame temp. Around 3000 deg C- closer to Acetylene.

2. High penetration and faster cutting speed.

3. Very effective for cutting metals of higher thickness.

4. Smooth cutting surface and reduction in slag formation.

5. Clean, narrow kerfs.

6. Virtually impossible to backfire or flashback.

7. Less Cylinder handling cost and less necessity for changing of apparatus.

8. No sooty or dirty flame.

9. Flame is much less luminous, so less harmful to eyesight.

10. Greater volumes of fuel gases can be mixed with oxygen for use in heating torches, opening up new avenues of torch-heat application.

11. Faster, easier cutting on rusty, greasy surfaces (as in scrap) because of freedom from "popping" and backfire.

12. Saving in fuel gas cost is much higher.

Approved by

1. The Department of Explosives has approved Bharat Cutting Gas.

2. Research and development establishments of the railways and defence.

3. Tiruchi-based Welding Research Institute certified the product.

Distrustful, would be end up in questing the reliability of above approving authorities.

List of customers and Industries using are…

LPG is being widely consumed and well recognised by a wide spectrum of industries for several purposes like cutting, heating and boiling. But ultimately the flame exhibits is same for all the functions. The sectors are

1. Railways.

2. Larsen and Toubro

3. EID Parry.

4. Jindal Steel.

5. Crispy Biscuits & Confectionery

6. Poultry

7. Textile Industry

8. Steel

9. Pharmaceuticals

10. Glass

11. Hotel Industry

12. Retuculated Piping.

Resultant derived from a lengthy Evolutionary development in cutting gas would be LPG. LPG has been widely known and considered as a friendly gas, since it is been opted to provide for civic who might not aware about the hazardous nature of the gas. The reason behind to prefer LPG is nothing but moderately risk in nature with other gases in its kind.

As you rightly point out that the Hazard/Risk should not be the determining factor, hence both needs to have a close vigil and adoption of safety precautionary measures. Whereas other factors like disciple and socioeconomic reasons could be easily eradicated by any organized industry with a full fledge safety management system.

With Regards

K.Bubesh

-----Original Message-----From: indiansafetyprofessionals [mailto:indiansafetyprofessionals ] On Behalf Of Suram SureshSent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 5:18 PMTo: Haricharan; Ramakrishnan_R_RRN [Chief Manager-Mech]Cc: indiansafetyprofessionals Subject: Re: USAGE OF BMCG IN PLACE OF DA CYLINDERS.

Dear All,

In my view, we all have started banning the use of lpg in industry because lpg was normally a subsidised gas meant for domestic purpose.

It is illegal and unethical from the socio-economic point of view, hence we do not allow the domestic lpg for cutting in industry.

At Visteon, we are storing 66 Tonnes of LPG for manufacturing purpose.

Just because there is a hazard, if we want to avoid using a particular material, we need to ban even WATER. I mean WATER.

As professionals, we need to identify the risk, evaluate the risk and insist for implementing the appropriate control methods and allow the industry to perform its functions with safety.

I generally discourage the use of lpg in our premises but when it is warranted, I do allow the use of Industrial LPG for these purposes with additional precautions but only limited occasions.

May be 1 or 2 times in a year. This gets recorded in our deviation register too.

Make sure that the Gas Cylinder is below the level of Cutting plane, inspect the tube etc

Fire is a Hazard- Are we stopping cooking and eating?

I have visited the IOCL Bottling Unit at Maduranthakam personally. I found certain facts from them that the Cylinders that we are using for domestic purpose are much safer than the international standards. Our Domestic Gas Cylinders, thickness etc will not vary and they are quiet safe to use even in the Industry also.(As I have expressed above, it is because of the subsidy it suffers, we do not use these cylinders for industrial purpose).

There are some other risks with regard to LPG usage in the Industry.

In a construction site, they may use it for any other purpose - Heating the Water, Making Coffee, Cooking food etc which are not intended to. Using lpg haphzardly will lead to loss of control on the risks and such negligence may lead to disastrous effect in an industry.

Where as with DA, using DA for these kind of miscellanoeus activities is not possible - I believe.

It is not the hazard/ risk that determines the ban of using lpg/acetylene in an industry- There are several other factors like Discipline, Socio economic reasons, legal requirements etc.

Please correct me if I am wrong

Regards

Suresh

[indiansafetyprofes sionals] USAGE OF BMCG IN PLACE OF DA CYLINDERS.

Dear Professionals,

Recently Bharath Gas has approached us for using their Bharath metal Cutting Gas in the place of DA .

They Have also given a list of organizations who are using their BMCG . I request the team to give your feed back about this BMCG. Statute wise is this accepted. Please reply.

With Kind Regards.

R. Ram Krishnan.

Chief Manager - Mech.,

Madras cements Ltd.,

Ramasamy Raja Nagar – 626204,

Tel : 04562-256201, Extn: 330, 430.

Fax : 04562-256268.

Why delete messages? Unlimited storage is just a click away.

********************************Disclaimer*******************************

The information contained in this message is BPCL's Confidential and Proprietary information and is intended only for the use of the recipient(s) named above. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, he/she is hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication or any of its content is strictly prohibited. In such case, please advise the sender immediately and delete it from your system. Further acknowledge that any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and no binding nature of the message shall be implied or assumed unless the sender does so expressly with due authority of BPCL.

***********************************************************************

[Guest guest]

Safe morning friends, For the last couple of weeks we are debating upon the subect of LPG or BMCG vs Acetylene. It has enriched the knowledge of most of us including me. But at times I felt that instead of sorting the doubt haven't we tried to stick on to our own view........ This is my feelings only. I believe that learning never ceases and it's an essential requirement for growth. Coming to the main subject.. The fuel gas which we are using can be anything provided it is really safe and economic. Mr. Bubesh I or we all accept that your BMCG is much more economic comparing to DA. You have listed out the benefits of using BMCG in terms of lesser cost and it's perfection but the safety related points are only one. You have listed the approvals that you have got which is also appreciated. But we are Safety professionals

and we care only about that. Cost or perfection is next to Safety as far as we are concerned. If you go through the mail written by Mr. Haricharan on 12th of Sep in this regard you can see several points because of which we are sticking to Acetylene and also that of Mr. Panchapakesan Krishnamurthy on 12th September you can see some reasons why we prefer Acetylene over BMCG or LPG. And also the old mails sent by Mr. Venkatesh and Mr. Haricharan clearly shows our demand or expectation from a fuel or cutting gas. My suggestion is that you can compile them and give it to your R & D and if they can come out with meeting all these or most of the requirements then we don't have any issue in switching over to BMCG. Which Safety professional will oppose to a innovative development which is really safe and economic??? I hope that this will be taken in a positive way and soon we will get a safe and economic cutting

gas. Regards, Arun Kumar.K SHE Executive United Phosphorus Limited 09906093936bubesh wrote: Dear Mr.Suresh, Traditionally in our country, cutting of metal / sheets has always been done using the cutting tools and we slowly switch over to Oxy- Acetylene mixture when it hits the market. And it got recognized widely in the commercial market as a monopoly in nature at that particular point of time. 'Necessity is the need of innovation' and Bharat Petroleum understood the same based on requirements put by various industries and our R & D department came up with Bharat Cutting gas as a successful replacement of Acetylene. Described as an economical, effective and safer substitute for dissolved acetylene, which most industrial units use, and the product is also useful for industrial applications, especially in the unorganised sector, where there is misuse of subsidised cooking gas. Bharat Cutting gas is a Hydrocarbon based and is fortified with additive. Its salient features are: 1. Achieves flame temp. Around 3000 deg C- closer to Acetylene. 2. High penetration and faster cutting speed. 3. Very effective for cutting metals of higher thickness. 4. Smooth cutting surface and reduction in slag formation. 5. Clean, narrow kerfs. 6. Virtually impossible to backfire or flashback. 7. Less Cylinder handling cost and less necessity for changing of apparatus. 8. No sooty or dirty flame. 9. Flame is much less luminous, so less harmful to eyesight. 10. Greater volumes of fuel gases can be mixed with oxygen for use in heating torches, opening up new avenues of torch-heat application. 11. Faster, easier cutting on rusty, greasy surfaces (as in scrap) because of freedom from "popping" and backfire. 12. Saving in fuel gas cost is much higher. Approved by 1. The Department of Explosives has approved Bharat Cutting Gas. 2. Research and development establishments of the railways and

defence. 3. Tiruchi-based Welding Research Institute certified the product. Distrustful, would be end up in questing the reliability of above approving authorities. List of customers and Industries using are… LPG is being widely consumed and well recognised by a wide spectrum of industries for several purposes like cutting, heating and boiling. But ultimately the flame exhibits is same for all the functions. The sectors are 1. Railways. 2. Larsen and Toubro 3. EID Parry. 4.

Jindal Steel. 5. Crispy Biscuits & Confectionery 6. Poultry 7. Textile Industry 8. Steel 9. Pharmaceuticals 10. Glass 11. Hotel Industry 12. Retuculated Piping. Resultant derived from a lengthy Evolutionary development in cutting gas would be LPG. LPG has been widely known and considered as a friendly gas, since it is been opted to provide for civic who might not aware about the hazardous nature of the gas. The reason behind to prefer LPG is nothing but moderately risk in nature with other gases in its kind. As you rightly point out that the Hazard/Risk should not be the determining factor, hence both needs to have a close vigil and adoption of safety precautionary measures. Whereas other factors like disciple and socioeconomic reasons could be easily eradicated by any organized industry with a full fledge safety management system. With Regards K.Bubesh -----Original Message-----From: indiansafetyprofessionals [mailto:indiansafetyprofessionals ] On Behalf Of Suram SureshSent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007

5:18 PMTo: Haricharan; Ramakrishnan_R_RRN [Chief Manager-Mech]Cc: indiansafetyprofessionals Subject: Re: USAGE OF BMCG IN PLACE OF DA CYLINDERS. Dear All, In my view, we all have started banning the use of lpg in industry because lpg was normally a subsidised gas meant for domestic purpose. It is

illegal and unethical from the socio-economic point of view, hence we do not allow the domestic lpg for cutting in industry. At Visteon, we are storing 66 Tonnes of LPG for manufacturing purpose. Just because there is a hazard, if we want to avoid using a particular material, we need to ban even WATER. I mean WATER. As professionals, we need to identify the risk, evaluate the risk and insist for

implementing the appropriate control methods and allow the industry to perform its functions with safety. I generally discourage the use of lpg in our premises but when it is warranted, I do allow the use of Industrial LPG for these purposes with additional precautions but only limited occasions. May be 1 or 2 times in a year. This gets recorded in our deviation register too. Make sure that the Gas Cylinder is below the level of Cutting plane, inspect the tube etc Fire is a Hazard- Are we stopping cooking and eating? I have visited the IOCL Bottling Unit at Maduranthakam personally. I found certain facts from them that the Cylinders that we are using for domestic purpose are much safer than the international standards. Our Domestic Gas Cylinders, thickness etc will not vary and they are quiet safe to use even in the Industry also.(As I have expressed above, it is because of the subsidy it suffers, we do not use these cylinders for industrial purpose). There are some other risks with regard to LPG usage in the Industry. In a construction site, they may use it for any other purpose - Heating the Water, Making Coffee, Cooking food etc which are not intended to. Using lpg haphzardly will lead to loss of control on the risks and such negligence may lead to disastrous effect in an industry. Where as with DA, using DA for these kind of miscellanoeus activities is not possible - I believe. It is not the hazard/ risk that determines the ban of using lpg/acetylene in an industry- There are several other factors like Discipline, Socio economic reasons, legal requirements etc. Please correct me if I am wrong Regards Suresh [indiansafetyprofes sionals] USAGE OF BMCG IN PLACE OF DA CYLINDERS. Dear Professionals, Recently Bharath Gas has approached us for using their Bharath metal Cutting Gas in the place of DA . They Have also given a list of

organizations who are using their BMCG . I request the team to give your feed back about this BMCG. Statute wise is this accepted. Please reply. With Kind Regards. R. Ram Krishnan. Chief Manager - Mech., Madras cements Ltd., Ramasamy Raja Nagar – 626204, Tel : 04562-256201, Extn: 330, 430. Fax : 04562-256268. Why delete messages? Unlimited storage is just a click away. ********************************Disclaimer******************************* The information contained in this message is BPCL's Confidential and Proprietary information and is intended only for the use of the recipient(s) named above. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, he/she is hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication or any of its content is strictly prohibited. In such case, please advise the sender immediately and delete it from your system. Further acknowledge that any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and no binding nature of the message shall be implied or assumed unless the sender does so expressly with due authority of BPCL. ***********************************************************************

Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now

[Guest guest]

Dear Bubesh,

Is there any standard ISI marked regulator available for LPG, which can be used for cutting applications where high flow rate is required ? Pl. let me know the name of the vendor.

With best regards,

SANJAY AGGARWAL

P Please don't print this e-mail unless you really need to

-----Original Message-----From: indiansafetyprofessionals [mailto:indiansafetyprofessionals ]On Behalf Of bubeshSent: Friday, September 14, 2007 4:28 AMTo: Suram SureshCc: indiansafetyprofessionals Subject: RE: USAGE OF BMCG IN PLACE OF DA CYLINDERS.

Dear Mr.Suresh,

Traditionally in our country, cutting of metal / sheets has always been done using the cutting tools and we slowly switch over to Oxy- Acetylene mixture when it hits the market. And it got recognized widely in the commercial market as a monopoly in nature at that particular point of time.

'Necessity is the need of innovation' and Bharat Petroleum understood the same based on requirements put by various industries and our R & D department came up with Bharat Cutting gas as a successful replacement of Acetylene.

Described as an economical, effective and safer substitute for dissolved acetylene, which most industrial units use, and the product is also useful for industrial applications, especially in the unorganised sector, where there is misuse of subsidised cooking gas.

Bharat Cutting gas is a Hydrocarbon based and is fortified with additive. Its salient features are:

1. Achieves flame temp. Around 3000 deg C- closer to Acetylene.

2. High penetration and faster cutting speed.

3. Very effective for cutting metals of higher thickness.

4. Smooth cutting surface and reduction in slag formation.

5. Clean, narrow kerfs.

6. Virtually impossible to backfire or flashback.

7. Less Cylinder handling cost and less necessity for changing of apparatus.

8. No sooty or dirty flame.

9. Flame is much less luminous, so less harmful to eyesight.

10. Greater volumes of fuel gases can be mixed with oxygen for use in heating torches, opening up new avenues of torch-heat application.

11. Faster, easier cutting on rusty, greasy surfaces (as in scrap) because of freedom from "popping" and backfire.

12. Saving in fuel gas cost is much higher.

Approved by

1. The Department of Explosives has approved Bharat Cutting Gas.

2. Research and development establishments of the railways and defence.

3. Tiruchi-based Welding Research Institute certified the product.

Distrustful, would be end up in questing the reliability of above approving authorities.

List of customers and Industries using are…

LPG is being widely consumed and well recognised by a wide spectrum of industries for several purposes like cutting, heating and boiling. But ultimately the flame exhibits is same for all the functions. The sectors are

1. Railways.

2. Larsen and Toubro

3. EID Parry.

4. Jindal Steel.

5. Crispy Biscuits & Confectionery

6. Poultry

7. Textile Industry

8. Steel

9. Pharmaceuticals

10. Glass

11. Hotel Industry

12. Retuculated Piping.

Resultant derived from a lengthy Evolutionary development in cutting gas would be LPG. LPG has been widely known and considered as a friendly gas, since it is been opted to provide for civic who might not aware about the hazardous nature of the gas. The reason behind to prefer LPG is nothing but moderately risk in nature with other gases in its kind.

As you rightly point out that the Hazard/Risk should not be the determining factor, hence both needs to have a close vigil and adoption of safety precautionary measures. Whereas other factors like disciple and socioeconomic reasons could be easily eradicated by any organized industry with a full fledge safety management system.

With Regards

K.Bubesh

-----Original Message-----From: indiansafetyprofessionals [mailto:indiansafetyprofessionals ] On Behalf Of Suram SureshSent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 5:18 PMTo: Haricharan; Ramakrishnan_R_RRN [Chief Manager-Mech]Cc: indiansafetyprofessionals Subject: Re: USAGE OF BMCG IN PLACE OF DA CYLINDERS.

Dear All,

In my view, we all have started banning the use of lpg in industry because lpg was normally a subsidised gas meant for domestic purpose.

It is illegal and unethical from the socio-economic point of view, hence we do not allow the domestic lpg for cutting in industry.

At Visteon, we are storing 66 Tonnes of LPG for manufacturing purpose.

Just because there is a hazard, if we want to avoid using a particular material, we need to ban even WATER. I mean WATER.

As professionals, we need to identify the risk, evaluate the risk and insist for implementing the appropriate control methods and allow the industry to perform its functions with safety.

I generally discourage the use of lpg in our premises but when it is warranted, I do allow the use of Industrial LPG for these purposes with additional precautions but only limited occasions.

May be 1 or 2 times in a year. This gets recorded in our deviation register too.

Make sure that the Gas Cylinder is below the level of Cutting plane, inspect the tube etc

Fire is a Hazard- Are we stopping cooking and eating?

I have visited the IOCL Bottling Unit at Maduranthakam personally. I found certain facts from them that the Cylinders that we are using for domestic purpose are much safer than the international standards. Our Domestic Gas Cylinders, thickness etc will not vary and they are quiet safe to use even in the Industry also.(As I have expressed above, it is because of the subsidy it suffers, we do not use these cylinders for industrial purpose).

There are some other risks with regard to LPG usage in the Industry.

In a construction site, they may use it for any other purpose - Heating the Water, Making Coffee, Cooking food etc which are not intended to. Using lpg haphzardly will lead to loss of control on the risks and such negligence may lead to disastrous effect in an industry.

Where as with DA, using DA for these kind of miscellanoeus activities is not possible - I believe.

It is not the hazard/ risk that determines the ban of using lpg/acetylene in an industry- There are several other factors like Discipline, Socio economic reasons, legal requirements etc.

Please correct me if I am wrong

Regards

Suresh

[indiansafetyprofes sionals] USAGE OF BMCG IN PLACE OF DA CYLINDERS.

Dear Professionals,

Recently Bharath Gas has approached us for using their Bharath metal Cutting Gas in the place of DA .

They Have also given a list of organizations who are using their BMCG . I request the team to give your feed back about this BMCG. Statute wise is this accepted. Please reply.

With Kind Regards.

R. Ram Krishnan.

Chief Manager - Mech.,

Madras cements Ltd.,

Ramasamy Raja Nagar – 626204,

Tel : 04562-256201, Extn: 330, 430.

Fax : 04562-256268.

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The information contained in this message is BPCL's Confidential and Proprietary information and is intended only for the use of the recipient(s) named above. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, he/she is hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication or any of its content is strictly prohibited. In such case, please advise the sender immediately and delete it from your system. Further acknowledge that any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and no binding nature of the message shall be implied or assumed unless the sender does so expressly with due authority of BPCL.

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[Guest guest]

Dear Sir,

Pls search on http://peso.gov.in

(CCoE) for list of approved manufacturers / vendors for LPG Regulator. Snap of

one such regulator (which can be used on LPG cylinder for gas cutting purpose) is

attached w/o more details.

Regards,

JK Das

From: indiansafetyprofessionals [mailto:indiansafetyprofessionals ] On Behalf Of sanjay.aggarwal

Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007

10:19 AM

To: bubesh; Suram Suresh

Cc: indiansafetyprofessionals

Subject: RE:

USAGE OF BMCG IN PLACE OF DA CYLINDERS.

Dear Bubesh,

Is there any

standard ISI marked regulator available for LPG, which can be used for cutting

applications where high flow rate is required ? Pl. let me know the name

of the vendor.

With best regards,

SANJAY AGGARWAL

P Please don't print this e-mail unless you really need to

Re:

USAGE OF BMCG IN PLACE OF DA CYLINDERS.

Dear All,

In my view, we all have started banning the use of lpg in industry

because lpg was normally a subsidised gas meant for domestic purpose.

It is illegal and unethical from the socio-economic point of view,

hence we do not allow the domestic lpg for cutting in industry.

At Visteon, we are storing 66 Tonnes of LPG for manufacturing purpose.

Just because there is a hazard, if we want to avoid using a

particular material, we need to ban even WATER. I mean WATER.

As professionals, we need to identify the risk, evaluate the risk

and insist for implementing the appropriate control methods and allow the

industry to perform its functions with safety.

I generally discourage the use of lpg in our premises but when it is

warranted, I do allow the use of Industrial LPG for these purposes with

additional precautions but only limited occasions.

May be 1 or 2 times in a year. This gets recorded in our deviation

register too.

Make sure that the Gas Cylinder is below the level of Cutting plane,

inspect the tube etc

Fire is a Hazard- Are we stopping cooking and eating?

I have visited the IOCL Bottling Unit at Maduranthakam personally. I

found certain facts from them that the Cylinders that we are using for domestic

purpose are much safer than the international standards. Our Domestic Gas

Cylinders, thickness etc will not vary and they are quiet safe to use even in

the Industry also.(As I have expressed above, it is because of the subsidy it

suffers, we do not use these cylinders for industrial purpose).

There are some other risks with regard to LPG usage in the Industry.

In a construction site, they may use it for any other purpose - Heating

the Water, Making Coffee, Cooking food etc which are not intended to. Using lpg

haphzardly will lead to loss of control on the risks and such negligence may

lead to disastrous effect in an industry.

Where as with DA, using DA for these kind of miscellanoeus activities

is not possible - I believe.

It is not the hazard/ risk that determines the ban of using

lpg/acetylene in an industry- There are several other factors like Discipline,

Socio economic reasons, legal requirements etc.

Please correct me if I am wrong

Regards

Suresh

[indiansafetyprofes sionals] USAGE OF BMCG IN PLACE OF DA CYLINDERS.

Dear

Professionals,

Recently

Bharath Gas has approached us for using their Bharath metal Cutting

Gas in the place of DA .

They Have

also given a list of organizations who are using their BMCG . I

request the team to give your feed back about this BMCG. Statute wise is

this accepted. Please reply.

With Kind Regards.

R. Ram Krishnan.

Chief Manager - Mech.,

Madras cements Ltd.,

Ramasamy Raja Nagar – 626204,

Tel : 04562-256201, Extn: 330, 430.

Fax : 04562-256268.

Why delete messages? Unlimited storage is just

a click away.

********************************Disclaimer*******************************

The information

contained in this message is BPCL's Confidential and Proprietary information

and is intended only for the use of the recipient(s) named above. If the

reader of this message is not the intended recipient, he/she is hereby notified

that any use, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication or

any of its content is strictly prohibited. In such case, please advise the

sender immediately and delete it from your system. Further acknowledge

that any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and

no binding nature of the message shall be implied or assumed unless the sender

does so expressly with due authority of BPCL.

***********************************************************************