Re: Natural Ways to Elevate T and GH

[Guest guest]

I thought NSCA did one regarding training sets, number of reps, and rest

intervals a couple years ago? it seemed pretty obvious as to what you should do

as a drug free lifter to encourage your body to produce more naturally? Part of

the recommendations for GH stimulation was larger muscle groups but short rests

- and for testosterone to use heavy weights, big muscle groups, and longer rests

(around 5 minutes) between sets?

Anybody got that study handy and comments?

The Phantom

aka Schaefer, CMT, CSCS, competing powerlifter

Denver, Colorado, USA

-------------------------------------

-------------- Original message --------------

My point in making that analogy was not to imply that I think we should all

measure GH and T after workouts. Rather, I am hoping that there may already be

some research in this area that someone can point us too. If not, maybe we can

motivate a professor or grad student to do this kind of research and share their

results.

Ed White

Sandwich, MA USA

=============================

[Guest guest]

,

Kraemer and Ratamess, Volek and Sallinen seem to be the 'go to' guys

for this subject.

Hormonal responses and adaptations to resistance exercise and

training.

Sports Med. 2005;35(4):339-61. Kraemer WJ, Ratamess NA.

http://tinyurl.com/2pdfr9

" Anabolic hormones such as testosterone and the superfamily of growth

hormones (GH) have been shown to be elevated during 15-30 minutes of

post-resistance exercise providing an adequate stimulus is present.

Protocols high in volume, moderate to high in intensity, using short

rest intervals and stressing a large muscle mass, tend to produce the

greatest acute hormonal elevations (e.g. testosterone, GH and the

catabolic hormone cortisol) compared with low-volume, high-intensity

protocols using long rest intervals. "

My reading of this and other stuff is that these hormones fluctuate

in a wave-like pattern according to biorhythms -- morning, evening

etc -- genetics, exercise and probably nutrition. Certainly high-

intensity exercise seems to raise GH and probably TS (and cortisol)

and then it subsides again. What one needs to do is improve the

TS/cortisol ratio because you won't stop cortisol rising when the

body is stressed -- that's what it's there for. Exercising on an

empty stomach is probably going to favour cortisol, whereas having

some carbohydrate aboard is going to suppress it. But what happens

during high-intensity exercise and shortly after is probably no

guarantee that GH and TS are going to be permanently raised -- (if

that's what all you guys and gals are after :-).

When it comes to nutrition, eating a diet that's not too low in fat

and not too high in protein may enhance testosterone production

according to (Sallinen 2004). In my opinion, fat should be mostly

unsaturated fat – nuts, avocados, olive oil, and polyunsaturated and

monounsaturated oils rather than saturated fat in meat and cheese.

Lean protein is still best. The ultra low-fat Pritikin or Ornish

diets or the high-protein, low-carb type diets may not be the best

choice.

Int J Sports Med. 2004 Nov;25(8):627-33.

Relationship between diet and serum anabolic hormone responses to

heavy-resistance exercise in men.

Sallinen J, Pakarinen A, Ahtiainen J, Kraemer WJ, Volek JS, et al.

http://tinyurl.com/33q22n

" The results suggest the possible role of diet leading to alterations

in serum T and FT during prolonged strength training, and that diets

with insufficient fat and/or excessive protein may compromise the

anabolic hormonal environment over a training program. "

Hmmm. . . what does that say about the excessive protein consumption

that's popular with bodybuilders.

Gympie, Australia

>

> I thought NSCA did one regarding training sets, number of reps, and

rest intervals a couple years ago? it seemed pretty obvious as to

what you should do as a drug free lifter to encourage your body to

produce more naturally? Part of the recommendations for GH

stimulation was larger muscle groups but short rests - and for

testosterone to use heavy weights, big muscle groups, and longer

rests (around 5 minutes) between sets?

>

> Anybody got that study handy and comments?

>

> The Phantom

> aka Schaefer, CMT, CSCS, competing powerlifter

> Denver, Colorado, USA

>

> -------------------------------------

>

> -------------- Original message --------------

>

> My point in making that analogy was not to imply that I think we

should all measure GH and T after workouts. Rather, I am hoping that

there may already be some research in this area that someone can

point us too. If not, maybe we can motivate a professor or grad

student to do this kind of research and share their results.

>

> Ed White

> Sandwich, MA USA

>

> =============================

>

[Guest guest]

I did a presentation last year at the ISSN conference in Vegas on this topic.

You can go to www.mindsprinters.com to listen to the presentation.

The presentation summerizes the latest research regarding training, sleep, and

nutrition and how to elevate GH levels naturally.

If you would like all of my references used for this conference please just

e-mail me and I will be more than happy to get them to you.

Jon Cohen MS, ATC, CSCS

Menlo Park, CA

Re: Natural Ways to Elevate T and GH

,

Kraemer and Ratamess, Volek and Sallinen seem to be the 'go to' guys

for this subject.

Hormonal responses and adaptations to resistance exercise and

training.

Sports Med. 2005;35(4):339- 61. Kraemer WJ, Ratamess NA.

http://tinyurl. com/2pdfr9

" Anabolic hormones such as testosterone and the superfamily of growth

hormones (GH) have been shown to be elevated during 15-30 minutes of

post-resistance exercise providing an adequate stimulus is present.

Protocols high in volume, moderate to high in intensity, using short

rest intervals and stressing a large muscle mass, tend to produce the

greatest acute hormonal elevations (e.g. testosterone, GH and the

catabolic hormone cortisol) compared with low-volume, high-intensity

protocols using long rest intervals. "

My reading of this and other stuff is that these hormones fluctuate

in a wave-like pattern according to biorhythms -- morning, evening

etc -- genetics, exercise and probably nutrition. Certainly high-

intensity exercise seems to raise GH and probably TS (and cortisol)

and then it subsides again. What one needs to do is improve the

TS/cortisol ratio because you won't stop cortisol rising when the

body is stressed -- that's what it's there for. Exercising on an

empty stomach is probably going to favour cortisol, whereas having

some carbohydrate aboard is going to suppress it. But what happens

during high-intensity exercise and shortly after is probably no

guarantee that GH and TS are going to be permanently raised -- (if

that's what all you guys and gals are after :-).

When it comes to nutrition, eating a diet that's not too low in fat

and not too high in protein may enhance testosterone production

according to (Sallinen 2004). In my opinion, fat should be mostly

unsaturated fat – nuts, avocados, olive oil, and polyunsaturated and

monounsaturated oils rather than saturated fat in meat and cheese.

Lean protein is still best. The ultra low-fat Pritikin or Ornish

diets or the high-protein, low-carb type diets may not be the best

choice.

Int J Sports Med. 2004 Nov;25(8):627- 33.

Relationship between diet and serum anabolic hormone responses to

heavy-resistance exercise in men.

Sallinen J, Pakarinen A, Ahtiainen J, Kraemer WJ, Volek JS, et al.

http://tinyurl. com/33q22n

" The results suggest the possible role of diet leading to alterations

in serum T and FT during prolonged strength training, and that diets

with insufficient fat and/or excessive protein may compromise the

anabolic hormonal environment over a training program. "

Hmmm. . . what does that say about the excessive protein consumption

that's popular with bodybuilders.

=======================================

[Guest guest]

I believe that whist 'micro-managing' your hormones is far from practical, being

aware of methods that could possibly elevate GH levels is vitally important for

athletes of all levels, strength coaches, personal trainers etc...

Being aware that muscle afferent feedback, blood lactate concentration, exercise

intensity, multiple daily sessions and sleep can all possibly elevate GH will

surely only lead to more informed programme structuring and better results

without wasting your and/or your athletes time on trial and error? In addition,

such information does not require much extrapolation to an every day training

context.

There is a lot of research out there that can help optimise training. I have

read the Ratamass & Kraemer article mentioned in a previous post .

This article and others like it have helped me no end in my own training and

that of those who I train.

This is a good thread I would be grateful for any more references regarding the

subject

Thanks,

Chapman.

Nottingham,

England

Re: Natural Ways to Elevate T and GH

Yes, I know, but you are still missing the point. The point is that

explicitly trying to micromanage your hormones seems to be an

unnecessary middle-man.

Much, much more is known, through basic trial-and-error about the

correlation between diet and exercise behaviors and obvious results

like fitness and strength than about how hormones fit into the middle

of it. Getting preoccupied with the hormones is going to narrow you

down to looking at a handful of highly specific scientific studies and

doing a lot of speculation and extrapolation.

I think this is a good topic for scientific study, but as an

individual who is looking to train oneself or others, it seems like an

unnecessary complication at best, something that could seriously lead

you astray at worst. It brings to mind Nautilis machines or baroque

double-split bodybuilding routines full of isolation exercises. These

are training practices that seem to have resulted from convoluting

anatomical and other types of analysis with much simpler questions

about what kind of training works.

Wilbanks

Wisconsin, USA

> >

> > What are the best ways to naturally elevate your own body's

> production of T and GH?

> >

> > - Diets

> > - Workouts - what type, volume, duration, intensity, frequency?

> > - Non Drug supplements (including amino acid combinations)

> > - Sleep - how many hours are best?

> > - Sex (not to offend anyone, but I believe that sex frequency can

> impact T and GH)

> > - sunlight exposure-

> > - anything else?

> >

> > Is anything proven to have a significant positive effect on these

> levels?

> >

> > Ed White

> > Sandwich, MA USA

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Dr. Ralph,

I am very interested in the subject matter. Do you mind emailing the 64 pages

in a pdf format?

Thanks for your time

Huntsman

Florida, USA

============================

Ralph Giarnella wrote:

Natural ways to elevate H & T

These discussions concerning hormones and attempts at

manipulating them to our liking is always very

frustrating for me. I find it frustrating because

there are way too many posts trying give simple

answers to a very complex topic.

It is even more frustrating when someone writes a

post and states just do this and you will raise your

HGH or if you eat this your testosterone will go up or

down etc.

Often someone will cite an article in which 20

college students performed a certain task for a

specified period of time and as a result their

testosterone went up or down etc. They then

postulate that anyone who does the same thing will

have the same result irrespective of age, gender etc

At times these discussions remind me of the story of

the 4 blind men trying to describe what an elephant

looks like based on the different parts of the body

each of one the was feeling.

I have to agree with when he states " The point

is that

explicitly trying to micromanage your hormones seems

to be an

unnecessary middle-man. "

Hormones are very complex in thier actions and

interactions with each other. There are age related

changes as well as gender differences and time of day

and month differences. A recent posting by

showed that there are also seasonal changes.

There are differences in hormones in various stages of

growth and development even within the same

individual.

This same HGH behaves differently in men than it does

in women.

To illustrate the complexity of hormones I have taken

the liberty of posting some excerpts from a well

respected Textbook of Endocrinology. You can probably

find a copy at the library of your local Hospital and

check out the information for yourself.

I can send a PDF copy of the chapter in question (64

pages) to anyone interested in studying this very

complex subject.

Ralph Giarnella MD

Southington Ct USA

*********************************************

Kronenberg: Textbook of Endocrinology, 11th

ed.

HYPOPHYSEOTROPIC HORMONES AND NEUROENDOCRINE AXES

****************************

Human Growth Hormone Rhythms

Endocrine Rhythms

Virtually all functions of living animals (regardless

of their position on the evolutionary scale) are

subject to periodic or cyclic changes, many of which

are influenced mainly by the nervous system (see Table

7-4 for definitions). [86] [87] [88] [89] Most

periodic changes are free-running; that is, they are

intrinsic to the organism, independent of the

environment, and driven by a biologic “clock.”

At least three distinct categories of GH rhythms,

which differ markedly in their time scales, can

be considered here.

The daily GH secretion rate varies over two orders of

magnitude from a maximum of

nearly 2.0 mg/day in late puberty to a minimum of 20

µg/day in older or obese adults.

The neonatal period is characterized by markedly

amplified GH secretory bursts followed by

a prepubertal decade of stable, moderate GH secretion

of 200 to 600 µg/day.

Puberty: There is a marked increase in daily GH

secretion during puberty that is accompanied by a

commensurate rise in plasma IGF-I to levels that

constitute a state of physiologic

hypersomatotropism. This pubertal increase in GH

secretion is due to increased GH

mass per secretory burst and not to increased pulse

frequency. Although the changes are

clearly related to the increases in gonadal steroid

hormones and can be mimicked by

administration of estrogen or testosterone to

hypogonadal children, the underlying

neuroendocrine mechanisms are not fully understood.

One hypothesis is that

decreased sensitivity of the hypothalamic-pituitary

axis to negative feedback of GH and IGF-I

leads to increased GHRH release and action.

Young adults have a return of daily GH secretion to

prepubertal levels despite continued

gonadal steroid elevation.

The so-called somatopause is defined by an exponential

decline in GH secretory rate with

a half-life of 7 years starting in the third decade of

life.

GH secretion in young adults exhibits a true circadian

rhythm over a 24-hour period,

characterized by a greater nocturnal secretory mass

that is independent of sleep onset. [230] However, as

discussed earlier, GH release is further facilitated

when slow wave sleep coincides with the

normal circadian peak.

Under basal conditions, GH levels are low most of the

time, with an ultradian rhythm of about

10 (men) or 20 (women) secretory pulses per 24 hours

as calculated by deconvolution analysis.

[231]

Both sexes have an increased pulse frequency during

the nighttime hours, but the fraction of

total daily GH secretion associated with the nocturnal

pulses is much greater in men.

Overall, women have more continuous GH secretion and

more frequent GH pulses that are of

more uni-form size than men. [231]

A complementary study using approximate entropy

analysis concluded that the nonpulsatile

regularity of GH secretion is also significantly

different in men and women. [232]

These sexually dimorphic patterns in the human are

actually quite similar to those in the rat,

although the sex differences are not as extreme in

humans. [208] [232]

The neuroendocrine basis for sex differences in the

ultradian rhythm of GH secretion is not fully

understood.

Gonadal sex steroids play both an organizational role

during development of the hypothalamus

and an activational role in the adult, regulating

expression of the genes for many of the

peptides and receptors central to GH regulation. [203]

[208]

In the human, unlike the rat, the hypothalamic actions

of testosterone appear to be

predominantly due to its aromatization to

17 & #946;-estradiol and interaction with estrogen

receptors.

Hypothalamic somatostatin appears to play a more

prominent role in men than in women in the

regulation of pulsatile GH secretion, and this

difference is postulated to be a key factor in

producing the sexual dimorphism. [231] [233] [234]

Important triggers of GH release include :

the normal decrease in blood glucose level after

intake of a carbohydrate-rich meal,

absolute hypoglycemia,

exercise,

physical and emotional stress, and

high intake of protein (mediated by amino acids).

Some of the pathologic causes of elevated GH represent

extremes of these physiologic signals and include

protein-calorie starvation,

anorexia nervosa,

liver failure, and

type 1 diabetes mellitus.

A critical concept is that many of these GH triggers

work through the same final common

mechanism of somatostatin withdrawal and consequent

disinhibition of GH secretion.

Some factors that inhibit GH release

postprandial hyperglycemia,

glucose infusion,

elevated plasma free fatty acids,

type 2 diabetes mellitus (with obesity and insulin

resistance), and

obesity are all

associated with inhibition of GH secretion.

The role of leptin in mediating either increases or

decreases in GH release is complicated by its multiple

sites of action and coexistent secretory environment.

Similarly, other members of the cytokine family

including IL-1, IL-2, IL-6, and endotoxin have been

inconsistently shown to stimulate GH in humans.

The actions of steroid hormones on GH secretion are

complex because of their multiple loci of action

within the proximal hypothalamic-pituitary components

in addition to secondary effects on other neural and

endocrine systems.

Glucocorticoids (Cortisol) in particular produce

opposite responses that are dependent on the

chronicity of administration.

Moreover, glucocorticoid effects follow an inverted

U-shaped dose-response curve.

Both low and high glucocorticoid levels reduce GH

secretion, the former because of decreased GH gene

expression and somatotroph responsiveness to GHRH and

the latter because of increased hypothalamic

somatostatin tone and decreased GHRH.

Similarly, physiologic levels of thyroid hormones are

necessary to maintain GH secretion and promote GH

gene expression.

Excessive thyroid hormone is also inhibitory to the GH

axis, and the mechanism is speculated to

be a combination of increased hypothalamic

somatostatin tone, GHRH deficiency, and suppressed

pituitary GH production.

Feedback Concepts in Neuroendocrinology

In order to understand the regulation of each

hypothalamic-pituitary-target organ axis, it is

important to understand

some basic concepts of homeostatic systems. A

simplified account of feedback control in relation to

neuroendocrine

regulation is presented in this section. [83] [84]

[85] Hormonal systems form part of a feedback loop in

which the

controlled variable (generally the blood hormone level

or some biochemical surrogate of the hormone)

determines the rate of secretion of the hormone.

In negative feedback systems, the controlled variable

inhibits hormone output, and in positive feedback

control systems, the controlled variable increases

hormone secretion.

Both negative and positive endocrine feedback

control systems can be part of a closed loop, in which

regulation is entirely restricted to the interacting

regulatory glands, or an open loop, in which the

nervous system influences the feedback loop. All

pituitary feedback systems have nervous system inputs

that either alter the set-point of the feedback

control system or introduce open-loop elements that

can influence or override the closed-loop control

elements.

In engineering formulations of feedback, three

controlled variables can be identified:

a sensing element that detects the concentration of

the controlled variable,

a reference input that defines the proper control

levels,

and an error signal that determines the output of the

system.

The reference input is the set-point of the system.

Hormonal feedback control systems resemble engineering

systems in that the concentration of the hormone in

the blood (or some function of the hormone) regulates

the output of the controlling gland.

Hormonal feedback differs from engineering systems in

that the sensor element and the reference input

element are not readily

distinguishable.

The set-point of the controlled variable is

determined by a complex cascade beginning with the

kinetics of binding to a receptor and the activities

of successive intermediate messengers. Sophisticated

models

incorporating control elements, compartmental

analysis, and hormone production and clearance rates

exist for many systems.

*********************

<<<Note: this is the point I was making concerning

hormone supplementation- (Testosterone and HGH for

example) when you supply hormones it exogenously it

signals the body to stop making them-RG MD)>>>>

**********************

Serotonin's effect on GH release in humans was

difficult to decipher because of the large number of

receptor subtypes. However, clinical studies with the

receptor-selective agonist sumatriptan clearly

implicated the 5-HT1D receptor subtype in the

stimulation of basal GH levels. [225] The drug also

potentiates the effect of a maximal dose of GHRH,

suggesting the recurring theme of GH disinhibition by

inhibition of hypothalamic somatostatin neurons in

its mechanism of action. Histaminergic pathways

acting through H1 receptors play only a minor,

conditional stimulatory role in GH secretion in

humans.

Acetylcholine appears to be an important physiologic

regulator of GH secretion.[226] Blockade of

acetylcholinergic muscarinic receptors reduces or

abolishes GH secretory responses to GHRH, glucagon and

arginine, morphine, and exercise.

In contrast, drugs that potentiate cholinergic

transmission increase basal GH levels and enhance the

GH response to GHRH in normal individuals or in

subjects with obesity or Cushing's disease. In vitro

acetylcholine inhibits somatostatin release from

hypothalamic fragments, and acetylcholine can act

directly on the pituitary to inhibit GH release.

Many neuropeptides in addition to GHRH and

somatostatin are involved in the modulation of GH

secretion in humans (see Table 7-5 ). [203] [208]

Among these, the evidence is most compelling for a

stimulatory role of galanin acting in the human

hypothalamus by a GHRH-dependent mechanism.

A larger number of neuropeptides are known or

suspected to inhibit GH secretion in humans, at least

under certain

circumstances.[208] The list includes NPY, CRH,

calcitonin, oxytocin, neurotensin, VIP, and TRH.

203. Muller EE, Locatelli V, Cocchi D: Neuroendocrine

control of growth hormone secretion. Physiol

Rev 1999; 79:511-607.

208. Giustina A, Veldhuis JD: Pathophysiology of the

neuroregulation of growth hormone secretion in

experimental animals and the human. Endocr

Rev 1998; 19:717-797.

230. Van Cauter E, Kerkhofs M, Caufriez A, et al: A

quantitative estimation of growth hormone secretion in

normal man: reproducibility and relation to sleep and

time of day. J Clin Endocrinol

Metab 1992; 74:1441-1450.

231. Jaffe CA, Ocampo-Lim B, Guo W, et al: Regulatory

mechanisms of growth hormone secretion are sexually

dimorphic. J Clin Invest 1998; 102:153-164.

232. Pincus SM, Gevers EF, IC, et al: Females

secrete growth hormone with more process irregularity

than males in both humans and rats. Am J

Physiol 1996; 270:E107-E115.

233. Low MJ, Otero-Corchon V, Parlow AF, et

al: Somatostatin is required for masculinization of

growth hormone-regulated hepatic gene expression but

not of somatic growth. J Clin

Invest 2001; 107:1571-1580.

234. Wagner C, Caplan SR, Tannenbaum GS: Genesis of

the ultradian rhythm of GH secretion: a new model

unifying experimental observations in rats. Am J

Physiol 1998; 275:E1046-E1054.

Kronenberg: Textbook of Endocrinology, 11th

ed.

Copyright © 2008 Saunders, An Imprint of Elsevier

G

[Guest guest]

> These discussions concerning hormones and attempts at

> manipulating them to our liking is always very

> frustrating for me. I find it frustrating because

> there are way too many posts trying give simple

> answers to a very complex topic.

>

> It is even more frustrating when someone writes a

> post and states just do this and you will raise your

> HGH or if you eat this your testosterone will go up or

> down etc.

Ralph, essentially I agree that endocrine systems are complex systems

and a few natural manipulations here or there are unlikely to be

worth the time and effort for casual trainers.

However, one would be naive not to be aware of the substantial

industry in anabolic drugs -- mostly hormones or analogues -- in

professional sport, many of which do provide a substantial advantage.

American baseball is going through a very tough period of soul

searching over the use of steroids and related compounds in the

sport -- as I'm sure many Supertrainers are aware.

Having said that, I do support " natural " athletes and I consider it

important that any small advantage that can be got from training in a

particular natural way should at least be noted for consideration,

especially if a slight change in training modality has no great

impact on training logistics.

Regarding studies in the sports sciences: Like the nutritional

sciences, and unlike many trials in medicine or pharmacology, the

sports sciences suffer from small budgets and inadequate team

resources. The large, randomised controlled trials that we have come

to expect as the gold standard of evidence in the biomedical sciences

are, generally, not possible in the sports sciences. We have to glean

what we can from much smaller studies and make the best of it.

It is true that we cannot attribute much evidence from many of these

studies with just a few participants and few controls. Even so, they

can contribute to meta analyses over time, and we may gain some

understanding of the complex nature of sports physiology and

biochemistry by being aware of consistency in findings over time.

Gympie, Australia

[Guest guest]

--- Ed White wrote:

> Ralph,

>

> This is all great info and certainly points out the

> complexity of our endocrine system, complex feedback

> loops and cycles. But I am not ready to roll-over

> on this yet...

>

> Explicitly trying to micromanage your hormones seems

> to be an unnecessary middle-man...

>

> Let me ask you something. Would you explicitly

> manage your diet? What if your LDL cholesterol is

> way too high? What if you triglycerides are off the

> charts? Blood sugar through the roof? Blood

> pressure? PSA? Would you not use this information

> to make diet changes and then see if your levels

> responded?

The problem here is that when dealing with

testosterone and HGH there are just too many variables

to try and control all of them in order to attain

ideal levels.

When dealing with blood sugar you can have instant

feed back with a simple blood test which costs just

pennies to perform and can be done on a daily basis

and within a timely fasion. With regards to lipid

profile it is easy enough to see the results with

blood tests. Lipids (except for triglycerides) do not

change drastically from day to day so that you can

follow a regimen for a month or two and see if you

have made a change.

When it comes to HGH an testosterone the target is

elusive since there is a variability of these hormones

from day to day and within the same day.

Unless you are taking serial blood tests before and

after your manipulations there is no way to know

whether they had the desired effect.

Even if you did a study on a group of individuals

under controlled circumstances the results may not

necessarily apply to others unless you follow the same

controlled circumstances and were of a similar age and

gender as the controls.

For instance while cortisol is important for HGH too

much cortisol and too little cortisol have a negative

effect on HGH. Cortisol is highly variable with a

circadian rhythm. It is at its lowest in very early

morning and naturally continues to rise until the late

afternoon after which it begins to decrease. However

even this varies between individuals. For some it

reaches its peak earlier in the day and for other it

reaches its peak later in the day. In young adults it

tends to peak late in the day (that is why they tend

to stay up late and have trouble getting up in the am)

and in older folks it tends to peak earlier.

In studies on cortisol rhythms these two type of

individuals are designated as larks and owls.

Cortisol can also vary based on how much sleep you get

or don't get, the state of stress in your life,(work,

financial, emotional, exercise etc) the state of your

nutrition.

An intense workout is good for stimulation of these

hormones but too intense can be detrimental since it

may cause too much elevation of Cortisol. If the

exercise is too intense as to cause a drop in glucose

availability cortisol kicks along with glucagon to

produce more glucose.

High carbs are very good for HGH but if your

postprandial blood sugar is too high it can be

detrimental. This varies from person to person

depending on their ability to produce enough insulin

to control the rise in post prandial blood sugar.

There are many individuals who are not diabetic but

have an impaired glucose tolerance.

Serotonin has an effect on HGH and this is in turn is

affected by stress. Based on genetics some people

produce more serotonin under stress (this is good for

the individual) and some produce less serotonin under

stressful situations (this is bad for the individual-

often the cause of depression).

You may be able to control some variables but there

are too many variables that you are unable to

control.

Your best bet is to just find a good regimen that

works good for you ( a good balanced diet, exercise,

sleep, stress management et)c and choose your parents

wisely.

There is more to getting good results than just

elevating T and GH.

> Is it possible (or even likely) that a large portion

> of the benefits that we attain from our workouts is

> due to how our workouts manipulate T, GH (and maybe

> insulin). If so, wouldn't you want to know how to

> manipulate them even better - so that maybe you

> could get even better results with less time?

> Wouldn't you want to take the guess work out of it?

>

> You may think its too complex, or that with all of

> the history of training we must have it all figured

> out and our training methods must be optimal (or so

> close that it does not matter). What if we are

> wrong? What if there are training approaches that

> would blow away the results we get - but we are too

> dogmatic to even consider the idea, never mind to

> explore them.

>

> The technology exists today to measure this stuff,

> and to change this from an art to a true science.

The technology is there to measure in the lab and on

the mice and test subjects but it is not practical for

the individual exerciser. What they discover in the

mice and in the college students (most of these

studies are done on students looking for extra money

or credit) does not necessarily translate to the

general public.

We know from medicine that just because something

works in the lab or in a small group of test subjects

does not mean that it will work in the general

population. That is why they have to do field studies

often involving 10s of thousands of subjects over a

long period of time.

Sometimes what was originally thought to be safe or

effective in a controlled environment turns out to be

not as safe or not as effective.

I find it very curious that many in the weight lifting

community are willing to jump on isolated small

studies with no critical thought as to the validity of

the methodology or the soundness of the study.

> Then we won't be blind men anymore, will we?

The problem as I see it is that all too often it is

the blind leading the blind.

> Ed White

> Sandwich, MA USA

>

> ps I would love to read the endocrinology PDF if it

> is conveninet for you to send it to me

The PDF is in the mail.

Ralph Giarnella MD

Southington Ct USA

[Guest guest]

Jon,

I appreciate you sharing this with us. I found it very informative and did

glean some useful advice to incorporate into my regimen.

Thanks,

Ed White

Sandwich, MA USA

======================================

Jon Cohen wrote:

I did a presentation last year at the ISSN conference in Vegas on this topic.

You can go to www.mindsprinters.com to listen to the presentation.

The presentation summerizes the latest research regarding training, sleep, and

nutrition and how to elevate GH levels naturally.

If you would like all of my references used for this conference please just

e-mail me and I will be more than happy to get them to you.

Jon Cohen MS, ATC, CSCS

Menlo Park, CA

Re: Natural Ways to Elevate T and GH

,

Kraemer and Ratamess, Volek and Sallinen seem to be the 'go to' guys

for this subject.

Hormonal responses and adaptations to resistance exercise and

training.

Sports Med. 2005;35(4):339- 61. Kraemer WJ, Ratamess NA.

http://tinyurl. com/2pdfr9

" Anabolic hormones such as testosterone and the superfamily of growth

hormones (GH) have been shown to be elevated during 15-30 minutes of

post-resistance exercise providing an adequate stimulus is present.

Protocols high in volume, moderate to high in intensity, using short

rest intervals and stressing a large muscle mass, tend to produce the

greatest acute hormonal elevations (e.g. testosterone, GH and the

catabolic hormone cortisol) compared with low-volume, high-intensity

protocols using long rest intervals. "

My reading of this and other stuff is that these hormones fluctuate

in a wave-like pattern according to biorhythms -- morning, evening

etc -- genetics, exercise and probably nutrition. Certainly high-

intensity exercise seems to raise GH and probably TS (and cortisol)

and then it subsides again. What one needs to do is improve the

TS/cortisol ratio because you won't stop cortisol rising when the

body is stressed -- that's what it's there for. Exercising on an

empty stomach is probably going to favour cortisol, whereas having

some carbohydrate aboard is going to suppress it. But what happens

during high-intensity exercise and shortly after is probably no

guarantee that GH and TS are going to be permanently raised -- (if

that's what all you guys and gals are after :-).

When it comes to nutrition, eating a diet that's not too low in fat

and not too high in protein may enhance testosterone production

according to (Sallinen 2004). In my opinion, fat should be mostly

unsaturated fat – nuts, avocados, olive oil, and polyunsaturated and

monounsaturated oils rather than saturated fat in meat and cheese.

Lean protein is still best. The ultra low-fat Pritikin or Ornish

diets or the high-protein, low-carb type diets may not be the best

choice.

Int J Sports Med. 2004 Nov;25(8):627- 33.

Relationship between diet and serum anabolic hormone responses to

heavy-resistance exercise in men.

Sallinen J, Pakarinen A, Ahtiainen J, Kraemer WJ, Volek JS, et al.

http://tinyurl. com/33q22n

" The results suggest the possible role of diet leading to alterations

in serum T and FT during prolonged strength training, and that diets

with insufficient fat and/or excessive protein may compromise the

anabolic hormonal environment over a training program. "

Hmmm. . . what does that say about the excessive protein consumption

that's popular with bodybuilders.

=======================================

[Guest guest]

Any " manipulation " without exogenous use of something is still overruled by the

genes of the person and whether they're in the right sport for their own bodies

lol. I don't think (and yeah here he is again) Mark Henry had to really think

about the sports he's done, the guy's a freak of nature and simply going to

succeed as long as he's not running a marathon lol.

Perhaps one could maximize one's own releases but the expense and stress of

what, constant blood draws? never eating a meal that isn't PERFECT? having all

your lifts exactly timed, exactly calculated, and what if you don't make the

workout due to well, real life? it's not likely without 24/7 control of an

athlete and them having ZERO life outside of your laboratory that you'd succeed?

Given they don't know all the puzzle and I think this MAJORLY applies to how

women gain muscle without exogenous means....how can you be sure you're getting

the maximum out of that athlete anyway!

There's still that freak of nature out there who isn't giving a rat about

his/her chemistry and mostly eating junk food and can walk in the door and beat

even the most carefully groomed athlete!

It's like that 6'8 " girl who's clubbing basketballs out of hands in high school

right now. why? cause she's 6'8 " with arms like a condor and they aren't.

Doesn't matter what she eats, she's 6'8 " . they think she may grow 2 more inches

too, lol. Chose the right parents apparently! Unless she decides she wants to

arbitrarily be a size four, she'll probably continue to do well in basketball

too lol.

You could have another girl who isn't 6'8 " , say a still tall 6', and you

carefully train her to jump, feed her all the right foods, and watch EVERY

moment. Plenty of rest, etc. Plenty of all the right stuff, training, food,

etc.

She's still not 6'8 " and this girl who is will block her shots, and basically

make your girl's life hell lol.

Genes can make your efforts succeed or fail, regardless of how you eat or train

lol. There are people like the one who was cited with the huge 52 " vertical.

He never trained it. He's the freak of nature who is going to drive coaches

insane and make people shake their heads...<GRIN>.

good topic and again, like i said, it's interesting to those of us dedicate to

NOT going the exogenous add on way of life, lifetime drug free is the hardest

way to do things <grin>. Harder to dodge stuff that's out there than give in!

I am enjoying making the notion that you " lose muscle " in your thirties and

onward look ridiculous at age 47....if I can do it as a woman, then men clearly

are more likely to not lose their muscle either! without resorting to things

exogenous!

Nothing but CHALK!

The Phantom

aka Schaefer, CMT, cscs, competing powerlifter

Denver, Colorado, USA

================================

-------------- Original message --------------

> These discussions concerning hormones and attempts at

> manipulating them to our liking is always very

> frustrating for me. I find it frustrating because

> there are way too many posts trying give simple

> answers to a very complex topic.

>

> It is even more frustrating when someone writes a

> post and states just do this and you will raise your

> HGH or if you eat this your testosterone will go up or

> down etc.

Ralph, essentially I agree that endocrine systems are complex systems

and a few natural manipulations here or there are unlikely to be

worth the time and effort for casual trainers.

However, one would be naive not to be aware of the substantial

industry in anabolic drugs -- mostly hormones or analogues -- in

professional sport, many of which do provide a substantial advantage.

American baseball is going through a very tough period of soul

searching over the use of steroids and related compounds in the

sport -- as I'm sure many Supertrainers are aware.

Having said that, I do support " natural " athletes and I consider it

important that any small advantage that can be got from training in a

particular natural way should at least be noted for consideration,

especially if a slight change in training modality has no great

impact on training logistics.

Regarding studies in the sports sciences: Like the nutritional

sciences, and unlike many trials in medicine or pharmacology, the

sports sciences suffer from small budgets and inadequate team

resources. The large, randomised controlled trials that we have come

to expect as the gold standard of evidence in the biomedical sciences

are, generally, not possible in the sports sciences. We have to glean

what we can from much smaller studies and make the best of it.

It is true that we cannot attribute much evidence from many of these

studies with just a few participants and few controls. Even so, they

can contribute to meta analyses over time, and we may gain some

understanding of the complex nature of sports physiology and

biochemistry by being aware of consistency in findings over time.

==================================