Guest guest Posted July 28, 2008 Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 Todd, Of course doing reps at 3-5 seconds makes it " feel " harder, that is partly my point. Lets use the bicep curl as an example. If you are curling your arm up at a moderate pace (3-5 sec. up and 3-5sec. down) in what order are the various muscle fibers that are agonistic recruited? How are the antagonist muscles responding while this is occuring? Then when you are moving the arm back down, because you are moving slowly, the agonist muscles (biceps, etc.) are still contracting and engaging just eccentrically (being overcome by gravity). So what does that mean for the antagonists or triceps, how are they behaving? (see the research posted by on Recipricol Inhibition and I will post some more that I have later so that this is better understood by all). When you do things like that (moving at a moderate pace purposefully, 3-5 sec. up and down) you are forcing the muscles to work against each other. At what point in any athletic endevour would you want that to happen? What you should do instead is curl the arm up as fast as possible and then come to a complete stop at the top. Then follow by extending the arm back to the bottom as fast as you can and once again come to a complete stop. All the while you do this you should keep proper body position (form). This way you are using the biceps, and other muscles that assist, to curl your arm up and then they relax when you contract the triceps to move the arm down. By keeping body position you know that the appopriate muscles are doing the contracting and relaxing. To make it even better the biceps are then forced to absorb all of the force that was created by the triceps and the weight in order to stop the downward movement. Isn't that what we are trying to teach our bodies to do when we weight train (get better at contracting the agonists and relaxing the antagonists)?? If someone wants to run fast or jump high wouldn't they want the antagonists to relax as much as possible and allow the agonists to do their jobs? This is how Matveyev (1981) and Dr. Siff qualified how good an athlete was (Supertraining p.186). When someone just starts to workout with weights how is it different then their normal activities? Basically, the resistance forces their muscles to contract both more fibers and contract them at a higher velocity in order to overcome the force that is imposed. In response their body also gets better at relaxing the antagonists. The more weight they put on the bar the better their body gets at recruiting the agonists and relaxing the antagonists. Why? Because the heavier the resistance the higher the velocity of contractions need to be in order to overcome gravity. So you can move at a moderate pace and it might force those muscles to work really hard and thus result in some big biceps. But when it comes to teaching the muscles how to properly contract and relax so that you can be athletic that is not what you would want to do. As for PNF I know that there are a lot of methods, but you didn't specify which. Besides what populations are being used when testing these methods? For lots of people you are getting them to try to contract and relax muscles that they hardly ever use. Of course this will be beneficial. But the best methods of PNF for advanced athletes are those that have them do iso-metric and high velocity contractions at maximal ranges of motion. Chad Scheitel, MA, CSCS Minneapolis, MN ============================= Subject: RE: Push/Pull training To: Supertraining Date: Sunday, July 27, 2008, 10:04 AM Hi Chad, To repeat my original statement; the velocity doesn't necessarily play a role in the efficacy of push-pull or PNF would not have withstood the test of time. I'm a little confused by your explanation of why PNF works, because there are commonly 9 types/techniques of PNF being used and not all focus on isometrics and/or anywhere near maximum effort. Btw the way I have done each rep for 3-5 seconds and it does not change the workout in the manner you seem to assume. It makes it's harder, but NO ONE knows whether a slow or fast pace will more engage the CNS and illicit better gains. To be clear: being able to do more reps doesn't mean I'm getting a better workout via gains than less reps with stricter form. Also, the addition of internal/external loading might very well change the results and necessitate more or less velocity to get maximum gains. Yours in health, Todd Langer, MSc, CES, Rolfer Boulder, CO ============ ========= ========= ===== Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 2008 Report Share Posted July 29, 2008 " Angie " is a CrossFit routine consisting of 100 (kipping) pull ups, 100 push ups, 100 sit ups, and 100 squats (body weight) done for time. All reps for each exercise are finished before going onto the next. I've done a modified version of this (substituted 50 strict chin ups for the kipping pull ups and crunches for the sit ups), and it can be a nice change of pace when you're used to more conventional strength routines. Drew Baye Altamonte Springs, FL www.baye.com On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 1:25 AM, W.G. wrote: > Todd, > Funny you should bring this up. I was jsut discussing this with Mike > Burgener > this afternoon and he brought up what he called " Angie sets " which are > varies exercises like push ups, pull ups and squats done for sets of 100 > reps! > > W.G. > Ubermensch Sports Consultancy > San Deigo, CA > > =========================== > > From: todd langer <regnalt@... <regnalt%40comcast.net>> > Subject: Re: Push/Pull training > To: Supertraining <Supertraining%40yahoogroups.com> > Date: Monday, July 28, 2008, 8:54 AM > > Bill, > > One other " method " I play with his HIGH reps. For instance, 100 medicine > > balls circles in clockwise and counter-clockwise directions, 200 ATG > squats, > > 150 pushups, 100 horizontal rows. It's impossible to get these all the reps > > done in one set without taking short breaks when exhausted. However, the > key > > is to only wait the minimal time and keep knocking out reps to reach the > > final goal. I find it a great change of pace. > > Todd Langer, MSc, CES, Rolfer > > Boulder, CO > > ============ ========= ========= == Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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