Re: More abuse for being an Aspie

[Guest guest]

greeneuropa2 wrote:

> BTW, if this post is making some NT lovers squrim, or the NT lover in

> you (god forbid you have one) ill, DEAL with it. I'm sick and tired

> of playing " be nice to the NTs " and hide how I really feel on a list

> like this.

If you dislike the bigotry many of them have toward us, why then do you

have the same bigotry toward them?

Is it possible that maybe it's not the fact that they are NT that makes

them react badly to you? Maybe they just don't like you for reasons

that have nothing to do with your neurology.

> How anybody can try and give those pieces of shit the benefit of the

> doubt, compassion or understanding is beyond me.

Of that I have no doubt.

> Those things have

> to be earned, and so far all they've done is earned my hatred and

> spite.

It appears to be exceedingly easy to earn your hatred and spite.

> Caring about your aggressor ultimately will mean hating

> yourself.

I have lived among NTs my whole life as you have, and even though I have

been abused by a number of them, and I have always held that bullying

and group ostracism are innate NT traits, I do not hate them as you do.

They are just being their NT selves, just as we seek to be our autistic

selves. They have no more or less right to be themselves than we do.

They do not have the right to abuse people because they are different,

but neither should one of us hate them for being what they are. If I

expect them to learn to live with me, I should do the same. It is not a

one-way street.

> I can't understand how any aspie can not at a minimum dislike NTs

> after all the shit that gets thrown their way.

Because not all of them are bigots. You have to know that they are in

the majority; we are, by definition, abnormal. If we think that we have

the right to be ourselves even though we are different, we cannot

simultaneously claim that they do not. Haters lose the moral right to

complain about those that act hatefully. Bigots are bigots; it matters

not which direction the bigotry goes.

> Nearly 95% of those I've encountered have at least disliked me; most

> tried to do me harm in some fashion.

I have never had the problem to even close to that degree. Maybe you

had better look at what you are doing to piss them off so bad. When I

lived in Los Angeles County, I found the people there to be quite

accepting of me and my unusual traits. In my experience, it takes more

than being autistic to piss off that many people in the Los Angeles

area. They're pretty tolerant of weirdness there.

> And if anyone knows of an NT bashing site/list, please let me know.

You may certainly create one of your own, although its presence will

possibly do some damage to the autistic rights cause. That's not the

kind of thing I would want to be associared with. I try to fight

bigotry, not promote it. There is no room in my life for hatred.

[Guest guest]

Oh, that's right, in your mind I'm a bigot, because god forbid I

hate people who oppress me, put me down, make fun of me, and want to

wipe us all off the face of the earth.

How you can even fathom that concept is beyond me. No AS who hates

NTs is a biggot- they are simply interested in SELF preservation

from the relentless onslaught of abuse.

I know of some persons on this list who feel exactly the way I do.

They just haven't come forward because they know they will be

accused of being " biggots " and what not.

I speak for them.

The idea of helping one's self and defending one's territory,

rights, etc, is apparently no longer politically correct.

Hate people who wish you were dead, and hell, YOU'RE the bad person

here!!

Would you agree with the NTs that jail and berate AS persons who,

finally sick and tired of the chronic bullying they recieve, finally

defend themselves, since no one will defend them, and beat the shit

out of their abusers?

They should be given a medal for bravery, not jailed.

Someone comes into your house and tries to rob from you, or rape

you, or kill you, and if you fire upon them YOU are the one who's in

trouble!

You're suppose to let people do whatever they want to you, because

you're suppose to have compassion for them. What a crock of

bullshit.

I don't believe in this " love everybody " crap; the " love your

neighbor as yourself, give people the benefit of the doubt " crap.

It just opens the door to more abuse. I've tried it, it doesn't

work.

And oh, yes, let's get into more of the mind-fucking " its-your-

faultism " .

Sure, when I was in 12 step they found excuses to abuse the shit out

of me and then say it's my fault, no matter what I did.

When I one day looked around me and realized my " friends " really

weren't my freinds at all but were just using me, after all I did

to " improve " myself, how much pain it caused me to change, how

difficult it was to do, how draining it was and all it got me was

more abuse, that's when I realized I was just a pawn in their game,

and nothing more. AND that the abuse WAS NOT my fault. Because if

I had changed, the supposed reason for it being OK to shit on me was

whatever the fuck I did, if I didn't do that anymore, and they kept

it up, it obviously had to do with the fact that they were just

assholes, not me.

For me to walk into a class and ask intelligent questions and for a

teacher to dislike that has nothing to do with me.

I've never done anything to anybody, and they dislike me instantly,

the moment I walk into the room. Clearly it has to do with my AS,

and lack of body language that they are used to. To them that is

enough to hate me, abuse me, etc.

BTW, my uncle, who is also AS, has the same experiences I do. He is

very, very much like you. In fact, you both have very similar

autistic sort of patterns of thinking.

And I find it interesting that you generalize about an area based on

how one group of people treated you.... 10 years ago.

Los Angeles BTW, is the NEW murder capital of the US. Lots of

peace, love, and understanding here, huh?

I've lived here most of my life; while it IS much more tolerant than

other parts of the country (like Washingtion state), there is still

plenty of intolerance to go around, and it's getting worse.

NTs bulling and their meanness is not an innate part of who they

are. Otherwise it would be 100% of them who were like that.

It's the fault of their character, they are just assholes, the ones

who do that, period. They are driven not by just the group think,

but by sadism, and fear. Those things are not innate in everyone,

they are the result of poor character.

People who enjoy being cruel don't deserve the benifit of the doubt

or compassion, just like child molesters don't deserve a second

chance.

Most NTs enjoy being cruel, that is one of the primary drivers for

their behavior, IMO.

Jeanette

[Guest guest]

> Not all NTs want to do that. The bigotry is not in hating people

that

> actually want to harm you-- it is in assuming that all NTs do.

Not ALL have been PROVEN to do so, but 95% of them have to one

extent or another. So when I say I hate NTs, it's 95% of them. The

5% who haven't fucked with me, but aren't my friend either, I don't

hate.

I just keep a sharp eye out, just in case they change thier minds.

Let's just be knit picky here, ,

>Not all NTs wish you were dead.

95% do, and I bet if they were honest it would be MORE than that who

would love to see all autistics wiped out- not just me. Otherwise

there wouldn't be such an enormous resistance to us having rights.

> What I am saying is that maybe you should look at why you think

that 95%

> of NTs are bad. I am certainly no sweetheart to people. Now,

there are only two possibilities...

Actually, there are a lot more than 2 possibilities.

1. You stay in your apartment most of the time, so your exposure to

NTs is less, therefore, you get abused less often.

2. You don't notice the abuse as much as I do. You are oblivious to

it- I think that's what's going on.

3. You have a caring family, and that has colored your view of

things in the positive.

>I merely suggest that you may want to try to see yourself as others

>do, and figure out why they react so badly.

WTF did you think I did in 12 step? Took my fucking inventory and

found out my breathing is what bothers people- EVERY DAMN THING I

DO, INCLUDING EXISTING, BOTHERS PEOPLE, because I'm not the way they

think I should be.

I'm not feminine enough. How dare I not wear make-up. Smile,

smile, smile.... Take shit and like it... blah, blah, blah. The big

one was that I need a MAN in my life. When I got a boyfriend, then

I became an honerary human being to those clowns for 3 months while

I dated that asshole. They were devestated when I dumped the

bastard- both he and them were astonished at my lack of ability to

happily accept his shit.

Then they really started treating me like shit, and lesbians

approched me because they assumed if I had a fiber of strength I

must be gay.

My inventory didn't have much to do with me being a jerk the

overwhelming majority of the time. It had to do with me being

myself, and they didn't want me to breathe a tiny amount of essence

of who I really was, because it was " wrong " and made

others " uncomfortable " . Me not wearing make-up, not cutting my hair

a certain style, etc is what made them " uncomfortable " . And god

forbid I speak my mind. I was suppose to pretend to agree with

everyone!!

THAT is what most NTs want!!

Or it was a social skill that I was not aware of. I still didn't

understand it, cannot reproduce what they want, so they don't like

me.

So don't talk about an " inventory " . I've done so many I can't see

straight. AND I ultamately found out THEY are the problem, not me.

>But if I am to take your estimates at face value, 95% of people out

>there react badly to you. I find it hard to believe that such a

>huge number of people would react so if you were really being a

>person who behaves autistically but generally is a good person.

I bet you are/were getting shit on alot more than you are aware of.

Or you are sheilded from most of what I experience since you stay at

home most of the time. You have no obligations.

I've noticed that with some AS persons and even myself. I don't

realize I've been shit on until it's too late.

It may have to do with overload. We know we are getting abused, and

that triggers overload. We will not become aware of anymore, until

the " overload " resevoir gets bigger. I think having my sleep apnea

taken care of has helped in that regard.

Also, you don't have the level of face to face interaction and

complex issues that I deal with on a daily basis.

You dropped out of College because of those issues. I have to face

what you faced everyday- and even more so, because college is

getting more and more insane.

Guess what, - I get to do a damn GROUP activity in my

parasitology class. I fucking hate that shit. But learning about

this is very important to me, and will help me talk about

parasitology things more intelligently- when I'm advocating raw meat

for kitties, for example.

Most of the classes I'm taking support my feline perservation.

And *I* find it hard to believe that you don't see yourself as a

human being- but instead see yourself as an object. I also have a

really hard time seeing why you would want to be a " perfect being "

when that being apparently is not a even a whole person.

Or that all your " logic " doesn't even give you a reason as to why

you should stay alive, or why you have rights and should defend

them. Yet that is what a huge part of your life is based on. Not

only defending your " rights " , even when you think you are an object,

but that of other people's rights.

And what's this Mr. Logical doing saying he " loves " a group of

people? I thought you had no emotions, or that they were bad.

Is a huge part of your life based on...no... I can't say it....

EMOTION??!!

Love and anger drive you to advocate for the rights of autistics-

not logic. Hmmm... interesting.

Hate and anger keep me alive. If I wasn't angry, I'd be a mush of

gelitan, taking shit from everyone. I'd rather be dead than lose my

dignity that way.

I don't see hate as a bad thing if you've been hurt. It keeps your

dignity intact- it makes you want to fight- and stay fighting,

instead of giving up, rolling over, and dying.

And I bet you have as much, maybe more anger than I do... I vent out

my anger on a regular basis, and get it out. You don't do that,

because you want to be purely logical. So your anger doesn't show-

it has to go somewhere- you stuff it. It would be easy to assume I

have more emotion than you do, simply because I show mine. But I

don't think we can really compare that online, and I don't think you

can really fathom my situation online.

BTW, I thought you were abused so badly in college- I thought that

they turned over your Orange VW bug so many times or whatever they

did to it.... How many times did they kill your pet snails? What

did they say about you behind your back? How shitty were they to

you? It was ridiculous, wasn't it, how horribly they treated you.

Surely it sounds like at LEAST 95% of those people, at one time or

another, were very abusive to you, were they not?

*********

*******************

Let me tell you a secret, .

I KNEW YOU IN COLLEGE.

Small world, isn't it, ?

I've been holding this in for a long time. I joined the list very

much not knowing who you were- I had forgotten all about that. When

I punched up the AS thing, on Google, your site poped up, I liked

what you had to say, so I joined.

But something kept nagging at me... and when I saw your picture

online, in your photos folder, I recognized you.

I knew at some point I'd give in and tell you who I was, but I

didn't know how you would react.

If you remember who I am, please spare me of personal attacks, and

what-not. It was a very painful time for me, and I know how hated I

was back then. I found out later how bad it really was.... I was

devestated.

That's why I didn't want you to have my last name. AND DON'T put it

up now if you even remember me at all.... I don't want others to

have it.

Those assholes fucked you up so bad... I remember, at LEAST when you

were in the dorms. I don't know what happened after that....

They talked bad about you behind your back ALL the time. In fact,

that's how I first found out about you. Someone, I may say who

later, kept telling me about you all spring semester, of 1990. How

horrible you were, how wierd you were, just awful, awful things

about you. How hated you were by everyone. They wanted me to check

you out, and see the " spectacale " for myself.

I thought it was very odd... That they would keep talking about

something they thought was so bad, and why did they want me to check

it out??

I finally said to myself, I got to check this guy out!!

I think I was sent down to see you so that I would not like you like

everyone else. That person's plan backfired.

I was charmed by your uniqueness- that was so attractive to me. NO

matter what those jerks did to you, you just kept doing your thing

over and over and over again. You were your own person; you weren't

a damn carbon copy of everyone else...

And you weren't on some conquest to possess a female.

And don't EVER say you were NEVER attractive. You were one hell of

a sexy beast.... And your long hair had BLONE highlights..... You

had a perfect body...

And I remember how you would " rock " , but I didn't really notice it

that much, and it never really bothered me.

Anyway, it doesn't matter... we clash like all hell.

----------------------------------------------------------

So if you call what happened to you there acceptance, or ignored

that part and paid attention to something else, I can see where you

and I differ about what is " abuse " .

I never saw you as being accepted at all.

>I don't see the hate response that you say you do.

That's the point. YOU don't SEE it, but I sure do.

> I don't want to beat a dead horse, but you do have a tendency

toward what looks like paranoia,

, please get off this paranoid kick. You have even admitted

that " you don't really trust anyone " and then said " And you

call others paranoid? "

I'm willing to get Dxed now, I just don't know who I can trust to do

the job right....

Maybe it isn't hate, but dislike... still when they do things to me

like try to get me to fail a class, or impede my progress it is

hate. And I try to keep as quiet as possible about who I think

doesn't like me.

Apparently my intelligent questions are viewed by many as arrogant.

I can't help it if I'm ahead....

Now, should I just shut up for their comfort, because they are

taking my smart q's as being a " smart ass " , or should they just try

and answer my questions and not assume I'm trying to be smart and

put them down, or whatever the hell it is. BTW, should a teacher

allow her ego to get in the way of her teaching??

I am so bored in my classes now- I'm falling asleep. My IQ is

pretty high- I can't help that. I noticed I got an A in micro, even

though I never studied for the final that much. My lab partner, who

studied her ass off, only got an A-. She was depressed about that.

I didn't tell her about my A because I knew it would upset her.

I haven't told the Cell Biology teacher that him waving around a

yard stick, using it as a pointer, and tapping it on the ground is

very, very annoying. I could do that, but he would get mad.

You can't say I don't try. Sometimes I have blind spots, and I fuck

up and say things that I'm not suppose to say. By the time I

realize it it's too late.

>why do you hate them all, rather than just the ones that have

personally abused you?

I don't really hate them ALL, or I wouldn't even talk to my NT lab

partner.

But I can almost predict with certainty that I will be abused by

NTs, be it slighting, purposefull rudeness, to full on ploting

against me. I am surprized when it doesn't happen

>But they are what they are; they are born NT, and they have no

> more or less right to be what they are than autistics do.

I don't agree that being an asshole is an innate trait that they

have the right to express.

Enjoying being cruel to anyone whom they can do it to, and get away

with, is NOT something that can simply be excused away. It is a

flaw in their character, not an innate trait.

Child molesters, and Jeffery Damer said they " couldn't help it " and

it was " part of their make-up " . I don't buy that shit. They don't

have the right to be cruel to people just because.

An innate trait is 99.5%, not 95%. And that may be a high number.

I didn't actually count- I know it's pretty high though.

>That is why I think it is hypocritical to advocate that they quit

>hating us if you hate them.

An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.

Jeanette H.

[Guest guest]

wrote:

> The fact is, I don't really

> care if people like me, so long as they behave civilly.

Same here. I used to care many years ago, until I realized that no matter

what, there will always be those who will never like you no matter what you

say or do. Unless you are rich and/or famous, then it would be for all the

wrong reasons. I would rather have no friends than false friends. Don't need

those kinds of people around me.

> Maybe you and I have different thresholds of where " abuse " starts. I

> don't consider the people that talked shit behind my back but who were

> ostensibly my friends to have been abusive, if that was all they did.

My family was where I first saw this behavior. Smile to your face and talk

trash behind your back. It used to bother me until I realized that they also

talked about *each other* that way. NTs do it to NTs. I saw it everywhere.

Even some people from the " in crowd " got talked about in a negative fashion

when they weren't present. When I realized that this behavior just wasn't

towards me I stopped taking it so personally. It is just the way a lot of

people are.

> Hell, there are teenage sitcoms about it... the kid gets in with the

> " in " crowd and ends up taunting his old friend for the approval of his

> new ones, who are not really friends anyway.

The closest I came to being with the " in crowd " came when I was in the Air

Force. I was in tech school and a very smooth charismatic NT guy in my class

took an interest in me. He had a circle of friends that embraced me because

we were dating. It was a different to be so accepted, to be sure!

There was this one guy that pretty much stood out in a negative way in our

class. Even the instructor made fun of him! I defended him one time and my

boyfriend pulled me aside and asked me what I was doing. I told him that I

knew what it was like being on the receiving end of that and wasn't going to

sit by and say nothing.

He told me that I was accepted now and that if I didn't want to endanger

that, I needed to stop defending this guy. I told my boyfriend to stuff it.

I wasn't going to become like those who abused me to fit in. He actually

backed off, and lo and behold, I did not lose the respect of his group.

Every member of my class wrote me glowing prose on the back of my graduation

picture. I found that quite interesting.

Also, I tend to confront if I overhear or it gets back to me that something

was said behind my back. For example, I lived in a dorm at my first regular

base. There was this girl who had a room next to mine who always acted

friendly towards me.

One day when I was in the bathroom I overheard her talking to a friend about

what a " spaceshot " I was. I knew since high school that many people see me

this way so it didn't surprise me. She didn't realize I overheard and a

little later she came to me all smiles and invited me somewhere. She was

very tall and I looked up at her and calmly confronted her about the

spaceshot remark. I said something like, " Gee, you want me to go, but you

think I am a spaceshot? What is up with that? Are you *sure* you want me to

go?? "

She turned beet red and was totally embarrassed. She stammered and tried to

give some lame response but she knew she was busted. She didn't try to

defend the remark and stood there not being able to look at me. I told her

that I declined the invitation.

> Really, my hating them is not going to harm anyone but me.

This is the way I see it also. It gives them power over me to hate them, or

even to stay angry with them for too long. That means they are taking up my

thoughts and emotional energy. And I know that they are not wasting *their*

energy on me.

When I am out of sight, I am probably not even a passing thought in their

minds, so why am I going to let them fill *my* thoughts? Why give them such

power? Then they win. I keep my power by not hating or staying angry at

their antics. As I said previously, I do and will confront bad behavior

directed towards me, but will not hold on to anger too long.

I also wanted to comment on this 95% thing. When I was in school, it

probably felt to me and seemed to me that that many people had it in for me.

But what I eventually came to realize is that most of the school couldn't be

bothered about me one way or the other. I wan't even a blip on their radar

screen. Not important enough to even notice. It was probably more like 5% or

less enjoying getting on my case. Most of the school didn't even know I

existed. Gail, who???

Take care,

Gail :-)

[Guest guest]

> I know exactly who you are. I have long suspected this... I have

a

> highly associative memory, and you are the only Jeanette I have

ever

> known, so the parallels were bound to be obvious. The mode of

speech

> (shall we say you have a proclivity for using profanity... <g>),

the

> politics, the first name, the oddity, the comments on chemistry

you made

> on the list, the LA area location, the half-Costa-Rican thing...

yes, it

> occurred to me some time ago, and as I learned more, it became

that much

> more obvious. But, lacking evidence to corroborate it, I said

nothing,

> figuring that it would make itself obvious at some point. I was

pretty

> certain you recognized me too.

How embarassing, that you knew who I was all along. I had a feeling

that you might, but I was in denial.

> It should be obvious that I never hated you back then, as I do not

now.

> Why would you expect that I would react badly?

I evenetualy decided that you hated me. I never thought of us as

friends. I had a massive crush on you, and I felt somewhat

rejected, yet I could see that we were so different...

I thought you wanted me to go away, so I did.

My roommate discussed you with the utmost visceral reaction. Even

though, I thought she was obsessed with you. So in pure AS style, I

asked her if she was interested in you. Even though she was, she

lied to me and told me she wasn't at all, and that you were " all

mine " - I believed her, and everything else she told me, most of

which was not true.

Still, I couldn't understand why you didn't like me; since I would

be more loyal to you than any of those people, and far more honest

and kinder than them.

I value loyalty as an utmost important thing... far more important

than you do, apparently.

And NTs will be freindly to you in all sorts of ways and still hate

you. It's called " Gaslighting " and mindfucking, and they do it just

for the pleasure of it- it is an unbelievably cruel, sick, evil game

they play. They see it as entertainment, since they don't see us as

human. THAT'S what bothers me the most.

There is no excuse for them abusing us, period. And I DO see being

friendly to my face and stabbing me in the back later anywhere from

a nasty thing to do to a grave, serious offense.

They have broken my trust, which I gave freely because of their

deception- I was tricked into doing it. I don't give my trust out

easily, and I consider it to be a precious gift. One they should

respect, and see it for what it is- a piece of my heart. Of course,

I'm talking about people I see as my friends, not just being

friendly. The less I know them, the less offensive it is.

I hate it when people bad mouth me, not only because of the bad

mouthing itself, but because of how much damage it does to one's

reputation. Since repuatation is everything to NTs, if you are

trying to live in that world, as I did, their badmouthing can cost

you a job, a promotion, a transfer, a real friendship, many

opportunities vanish because of their hatred towards someone who is

different. Depending on how far it goes, the severity of it can

vary from missed friendships with good people to unemployment and

total ostrisation. I have been blacklisted and suspect that I can

no longer attain employment because of it- if I can't make a living

because they take it away from me, cut my income, keep me from

getting promoted, it in essence means they want me dead, because as

Shakespear said " You do take my life when you take the very means by

which I live " .

I never give anyone the benefit of the doubt. It's just wrong what

they do, period.

And how they do it to eachother is very different than how they do

it to us. They plot against us, to ensure we get nothing, and they

enjoy watching us fail. They banter about eachother, to see who is

where on the totem pole. They aren't trying to make someone

unemployed so they can be homeless.

I have found out the hard way that I cannot tell who is my friend

and who isn't. It's an AS deficiency.

Apparently the only people who want to be my friend want to fuck me

over, too. That's why I have no close friends now. I can't trust

anybody.

And I don't agree with that loyalty impaired thing. That is a

character flaw of the worst kind, and causes damage that is real.

Social impairment doesn't cause them any real damage.

It goes beyond the social ladder stuff. When they are trying to get

me fired, keep me from getting another job, or a promotion,

sabotoging my work, etc, that is no longer a simple social strata

issue. That is evil, wrong, and shameful. That is NOT inherent to

them, otherwise things would be totally screwed. They ALMOST are,

but not quite. The few NTs who don't see the need to be total

assholes are keeping the whole place from just collapsing, and it

may anyway.

I don't need a lot of resources. I only wanted just ONE friend I

could trust and do things with. JUST ONE. Even that is not possible.

Now I'm so jaded, and SMART, that I will never have any friends,

because I know better now. You can't trust anybody.

> Why would I issue a personal attack based on that? I think it is

kind

> of neat.

I thought you didn't like me. And when we were going through all

that shit before, I suspected you knew who I was, and were showing

your dislike for me for the same reasons I thought you did back then.

> How much they hated you? I never got the impression that it was

as bad

> as you seem to think.

Trust me, I was so widely dispised, they pulled a little gaslighting

thing on me. I thought they were my friends, but they then stabbed

me in the back viciously. I was told what my hall knickname was,

which I will not repeat. I realized how my loyalty and friendship

was meaningless to them. They didn't even see me as human.

And I always thought they hated you MORE than me... it's weird how

you and I see things 180 degrees differently.

>The fact is, I don't really care if people like me, so long as they

behave civilly. With a few notable exceptions, they did.

YOU call that CIVIL???!!! I call it horrendous, and unexcusable.

How could it be worse than that? It happened all the time, .

> I have to say that there was some similarity between us that I

could not quite pin down.

I felt the same way too.

> I kind of do, because they are just not important.

It matters to ME, because I need a job, you don't.

Jeanette