The morals of killing (was Re: Cry baby)

[Guest guest]

Camille wrote:

> Yeah, boot camp is a scary idea to me. I don't like it that they

> work so hard to destroy the individuality of the person.

I agree. I have had nightmares about joining the military and being in

boot camp. I could never do it... I would wind up overloaded, sitting

over somewhere rocking, in the fetal position. I have long considered

the draft to be a supreme injustice... essentially enslaving and

possibly killing young people in the name of freedom. Incidentally, one

of the first drafts of the Second Amendment to the Constitution

contained a ban on conscription, but that version did not (obviously)

get ratified.

I cannot imagine how one of our kind could be in the military. I know

some have, but I don't get it. It seems that they want to reduce you to

your NT essence-- they want you to bond and become one with your fellow

soldiers... like a supercharged version of the " team player " dynamic in

the workplace. I can't imagine that. I have never understood what it

feels like to be a part of any group. I have been in groups, but I have

never really been a part of any group, in my mind. That is similar to

my reaction regarding uniforms-- I tend to react as if they are poison

ivy. I revile and fear them.

I think all of those things... groups, uniforms, etc., are supposed to

support the idea that you are one of the group, and I guess NTs

typically want to fit in and be one of the group, but I don't get it. I

cannot truly imagine myself as part of a group, and when people have

tried to ram me, as a star-shaped peg (of course), into a round hole, I

can feel my points breaking off the harder they push.

[Guest guest]

Clay wrote:

> wrote:

>

> > I cannot imagine how one of our kind could be in the military. I

> > know some have, but I don't get it. It seems that they want to

> > reduce you to your NT essence--

>

> But I didn't have an NT essence.

That's my point-- I wrote that I don't understand how autistic types

could succeed there.

> If I had

> gotten an " undesirable discharge " , I don't think I ever Would have

> gone home again. While I was there, I heard about some clown jumping

> out of a second story of a bar- racks, and only broke something, but

> got an discharge for being unsuitable for service.

Is that different from a dishonorable discharge? I have noticed that

getting a dishonorable discharge removes some of your civil rights, even

if the discharge has nothing to do with something that would be a crime

under civilian law.

> Several guys in

> my company were asmo'ed out because they wouldn't shower, and so were

> " scrounges " who were also not suitable. (If you're going to live on

> a ship, you need to shower often.)

I know I would be unsuitable for service.

> It was all

> meant to be humiliating, but I found it like a vacation compared to

> the the usual routine of classes and marching,

If you were NT, it probably would have been humiliating. Ah, the

benefits of being resistant to peer pressure

> It's strange, after all they put me through, I came to actually be

> Proud of that uniform. They are amazingly good at that kind of

> mind-molding propaganda. It was like the ending of " 1984 " , when

> Winston finally began to feel patriotic again...

I wonder how much of this is a function of the process, and how much is

a function of the differences between individuals on the spectrum. I

mean, I would never join the military in the first place... the idea of

it is really quite terrifying to me.

[Guest guest]

wrote:

> I agree. I have had nightmares about joining the military and being in

> boot camp. I could never do it... I would wind up overloaded, sitting

> over somewhere rocking, in the fetal position. <snip>

> I cannot imagine how one of our kind could be in the military. I know

> some have, but I don't get it.

I was in the Air Force from 1975 to 1979. I am officially a Vietnam Vet,

though I never went there. I joined right out of high school, at 17. I

joined because I wanted to get away from home, and traveling and working on

fighter planes sounded interesting.

Boot camp went fine for me. For one, the Air Force is considered the easiest

to go through out of all the branches of service. For another, for some

reason I brought out the protectiveness of all my TI's (Training

Instructors) They were so nice to me. That pissed off some of my fellow

recruits. They didn't get mad at me, though, just the instructors. I only

had one officer really spout off at me one time the whole time I was in

Basic. (6 weeks).

Being around that many people did cause me to stim a lot! I remember when it

would be my turn to do floor watch. That was when you stayed up all night

keeping watch making sure no one snuck out and no broke in. I would pace

back and forth all night talking to myself. Softly, of course!

Even when I went to my regular base, I seemed to bring out the

protectiveness of my superiors. This, along with the fact that I am a great

rule keeper and always did what I was told, caused me to get along pretty

well. I never felt part of the team or group, though. I just felt like an

individual among a sea of people. :-)

Take care,

Gail :-)

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I'm glad we agree on boot camp. :-0

It's my understanding that in the reality of a fire fight that

killing people is still so unnatural for most young men that they

have to have this strong allegiance to the group and to the

commander, and if that breaks down, I understand that soldiers are

shot by their own. That was the point of my boss's comment.

My son would not do well with some freakazoid screaming demeaning

things into his face. My son might just have to punch the guy.

When we lived in Montana and my son was merely tall and muscled and

gorgeous, but not yet overweight, a recruiter approached us in a

store to see if he was interested in joining up. (My son was

probably 16 at the time) I was sort of embarrassed and my son just

said, No. The recruiter left us.

I told my son a few minutes later that he should have said, " I can't

join the army, I'm afraid of dying...if I joined the army- my Mom

would kill me. " :-) (that's some killing humor there)

Camille

>

> > Yeah, boot camp is a scary idea to me. I don't like it that they

> > work so hard to destroy the individuality of the person.

>

> I agree. I have had nightmares about joining the military and

being in

> boot camp. I could never do it... I would wind up overloaded,

sitting

> over somewhere rocking, in the fetal position. I have long

considered

> the draft to be a supreme injustice... essentially enslaving and

> possibly killing young people in the name of freedom.

Incidentally, one

> of the first drafts of the Second Amendment to the Constitution

> contained a ban on conscription, but that version did not

(obviously)

> get ratified.

>

> I cannot imagine how one of our kind could be in the military. I

know

> some have, but I don't get it. It seems that they want to reduce

you to

> your NT essence-- they want you to bond and become one with your

fellow

> soldiers... like a supercharged version of the " team player "

dynamic in

> the workplace. I can't imagine that. I have never understood what

it

> feels like to be a part of any group. I have been in groups, but I

have

> never really been a part of any group, in my mind. That is similar

to

> my reaction regarding uniforms-- I tend to react as if they are

poison

> ivy. I revile and fear them.

>

> I think all of those things... groups, uniforms, etc., are supposed

to

> support the idea that you are one of the group, and I guess NTs

> typically want to fit in and be one of the group, but I don't get

it. I

> cannot truly imagine myself as part of a group, and when people

have

> tried to ram me, as a star-shaped peg (of course), into a round

hole, I

> can feel my points breaking off the harder they push.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Camille wrote:

>It's my understanding that in the reality of a fire fight that

>killing people is still so unnatural for most young men that they

>have to have this strong allegiance to the group and to the

>commander, and if that breaks down, I understand that soldiers are

>shot by their own. That was the point of my boss's comment.

A few years ago, I read a book by a career military person.

He said the infantry branches (sorry if I get all the military

terminology wrong) were concerned by how few soldiers actually

killed during WWII. Many did everything they were ofdered to

do except kill.

So after the war, the military did a lot of studying about

how to motivate people to kill. As a result,the kill ratios

went up in subsequent wars. (With a commensurate increase,

one supposes, in damage done to the U.S. soldiers.)

Nowadays, of course, some parts of the U.S. military have

been turned into computer games where the killing is done

at such a distance that the psychic shock is minimized.

Not a good/ethical development, IMO.

Jane