Re: unresolved paternal complex

[Guest guest]

Liz and Charlie, I have definitely experienced uncomfortable

feelings regarding my father - who is my biological father. These

feelings are also shared by a sister close in age to me. My mother

would talk to me about sex and how unsatisfied she was. She and my

father would have arguments in front of us in which she would talk

(scream)about him being unable to perform. She often made remarks

and sneers to the effect of him regarding us or acting sexually

inappropriate with us. My sister and I both have dirty and

uncomfortable feelings associated with our father. We understand

the source and how unfounded it is and try to limit the impact it

has on our relationships with him. But I still feel uncomfortable

sitting near or having physical contact with him.

I think the feeling of discomfort may also be compounded by our

fathers being somewhat uncomfortable. They love us and want to help

and be important to us, but they have never been allowed to do so

without the threat of criticism and ridicule. This results in their

being self-conscious because they never were able or learned to

relate to us without this shadow hanging over them. I agree that

these relationships have been robbed by our mothers - from both us

and our fathers. We can struggle beyond it to varying degrees, but

I doubt it will ever cease to exist. Caitlyn

[Guest guest]

Hi, all. I also have uncomfortable feelings with my dad and have never once

asked him for help (nor has he ever offerred any -- bummer!) I've also been

pathetically grateful for whatever small gestures or gifts he may have given me

over the years, and have been basically trained to expect nothing from him,

emotionally or financially.

Although there's probably an underlying sexual dynamic, I think the

uncomfortableness in my case is more from the emotional dishonesty which is at

the core of our relationship. Part of it (on my end, anyway) is probably having

to listen to my nada put him down all the time (they're divorced) and feel

jealous and resentful if I ever seemed to show signs of affection for him. And

I often would get mad at my dad and AGREE with her, which then made me feel

guilty whenever I saw him.

But mostly I think it's kind of like, we both know he's been a really bad

father. Although he loves me, he's never stood up to my nada (or his new wife)

to insist on having a real, exclusive father-daughter relationship. He's just

been a dishrag forever, going along with whatever terms his wives have set. So,

he probably feels guilty about that. And I've been mad at him for it, and feel

guilty for being mad.

So whenever we're together, we're both just kind of feeling guilty and

inadequate.... and because he's a dishrag, I've been trained to consider him to

be " too fragile " to try talking honestly about ANY of this! Ugghhh.

I think the sexual element comes into it because we're LACKING that basic

father-daughter bond that would otherwise distinguish us from being just a man

and a woman alone in a room together.

Anyhow, just my thoughts!

Shana

Re: unresolved paternal complex

To: WTOAdultChildren1

> Liz and Charlie, I have definitely experienced uncomfortable

> feelings regarding my father - who is my biological father.

> These

> feelings are also shared by a sister close in age to me. My

> mother

> would talk to me about sex and how unsatisfied she was. She and

> my

> father would have arguments in front of us in which she would

> talk

> (scream)about him being unable to perform. She often made

> remarks

> and sneers to the effect of him regarding us or acting sexually

> inappropriate with us. My sister and I both have dirty and

> uncomfortable feelings associated with our father. We

> understand

> the source and how unfounded it is and try to limit the impact

> it

> has on our relationships with him. But I still feel

> uncomfortable

> sitting near or having physical contact with him.

>

> I think the feeling of discomfort may also be compounded by our

> fathers being somewhat uncomfortable. They love us and want to

> help

> and be important to us, but they have never been allowed to do

> so

> without the threat of criticism and ridicule. This results in

> their

> being self-conscious because they never were able or learned to

> relate to us without this shadow hanging over them. I agree

> that

> these relationships have been robbed by our mothers - from both

> us

> and our fathers. We can struggle beyond it to varying degrees,

> but

> I doubt it will ever cease to exist. Caitlyn

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Charlie,

What your nada did was was one of the most twisted forms of sexual abuse. I

agree with you that you should talk with your therapist about this, b/c she has

more insight an knows where she is guiding you on this matter. In the interum,

remember that it is your mother that is the perpetrator and not your father. On

a more personal note, one of the hardest things for me to do (and my dad did

sexually abuse me, and I make it clear that you said yours didn't) was to admit

that I did have sexual feelings for my father. In Fredian terms = negative

oediple complex. What set me free from this (and I am still working on it -

it's like going n/c, it just gets better a little every day) is admitting I had

those feeling for my dad, that what the perpertrator did was wrong, illegal, and

hurt a defenseless child in one of the most precious, innocent areas of our

lives. That being said, nothing is broken that won't heal. You are on facing

tough issues, Charlie, but you are strong

enough now to face them. Trust your gut and get angry at the real perpetrator;

your mother. I would follow your own advice and call your therapist if the

feelings get overwhelming. It is important b/c we never could reach out back

then. You can now and you did here. I am so proud of you. Be gentle with

yourself and reassure Little Charlie that she did everything right and you are

standing by her.

All my very best,

Greg.

charlottehoneychurch wrote:

Dear all, I have a very sensitive matter to write about today. It is

causing me a terrible

amount of discomfort and anxiety, and if anyone can relate I would be most

grateful for

input.

It is an uncomfortable subject about father-daughter relations so if anyone

feels

squeamish about that, please feel free to stop reading here. I know *I* am

squeamish

about it--that's my problem.

I should start by saying I have a somewhat real father, who is still a dishrag,

but we get

around it much of the time--and that he has never done anything physically

inappropriate

with me. However, my therapist has helped me to see the terrible thoughts that

were put

in my head on a very regular basis by nada, that became very pervasive. She

convinced

me somehow that accepting any help from my father was equivalent to having

sexually

inappropriate contact with him. Also, I've learned that all little girls go

through an 'electra'

complex, before they know what sex is, where they want to marry their father. My

nada

instead of helping me grow out of that, tried to use it to her advantage and

encourage it, I

think.

To this day I am extremely uncomfortable alone w/my father, and I have trouble

accepting

help from him, and I can never become attracted to 'professional' men in suits

(as my

father is one), and I can not even really feel safe enough to have physical

contact with men

in the same state as my foo, much less the same city or house.

Recently I have asked my father for a favor. It was a couple of days ago. Since

that time, I

have been overwhelmed with intrusions of extreme discomfort. I have basically

felt that I

am being molested, and I am on display, constantly. It is terrible. I suppose I

should call

my therapist. I just wonder if anyone has any advice or words of encouragement.

I feel so

very terrible. I suppose I should not have asked him for this favor. He was very

willing to

help==but the price I am paying for it now, is so very great.

I am so freaked out! Help!

Charlie

---------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

Caitlyn,

I want to thank you for the wisdom in your second paragraph about fathers

being overshadowed and since they were constantly being accused, feel

uncomfortable and awkward about being close phsycially, too. I think that this

stems from the BPD mother trying to isolate and control every relationship in

the family. How F'ing Evil.

Greg.

buscar4paz wrote:

Liz and Charlie, I have definitely experienced uncomfortable

feelings regarding my father - who is my biological father. These

feelings are also shared by a sister close in age to me. My mother

would talk to me about sex and how unsatisfied she was. She and my

father would have arguments in front of us in which she would talk

(scream)about him being unable to perform. She often made remarks

and sneers to the effect of him regarding us or acting sexually

inappropriate with us. My sister and I both have dirty and

uncomfortable feelings associated with our father. We understand

the source and how unfounded it is and try to limit the impact it

has on our relationships with him. But I still feel uncomfortable

sitting near or having physical contact with him.

I think the feeling of discomfort may also be compounded by our

fathers being somewhat uncomfortable. They love us and want to help

and be important to us, but they have never been allowed to do so

without the threat of criticism and ridicule. This results in their

being self-conscious because they never were able or learned to

relate to us without this shadow hanging over them. I agree that

these relationships have been robbed by our mothers - from both us

and our fathers. We can struggle beyond it to varying degrees, but

I doubt it will ever cease to exist. Caitlyn

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

> Charlie,

>

I just want to say that I can really understand your situation.

When I was growing up (as the " bad " child of my BPD Mom) I was more

or less allowed to have a relationship with my father -- but my

sister (the " good " child) absolutely was not, and one of the main

ways my mother made that impossible was by constantly hinting that

Dad wanted to molest her. The way she framed it was strange -- as

if my father was somehow the devil in the situation, and I was just

lost, beyond redemption, already belonging to him --- and so there

was no point in trying to " save " me, but I could be beaten up in

various ways over it --- while my sister was still " pure " , but in

constant danger of being corrupted -- so that it was never safe for

her to relax around my father in any way, or, as you say, accept

help from him. This of course left my sister isolated, with no

leverage to use in separating herself from Mom -- which was no doubt

the point.

Ten years of college (in psychology) twenty years of therapy (as a

patient) and three years of practice as a therapist --- my sister is

still trying to figure out just how it's all Dad's fault. She's

perfectly clear he never laid a hand on her, but if asked whether

Mom may have somehow been out of line, she breaks eye contact, gets

this stoned look, and mutters something about Mom's " loyalty to the

_emotional_ truth of the situation " .

Right.

I congratulate you on identifying the real issues here -- it's a

huge accomplishment.

Ivy

[Guest guest]

Wow, Shana,

That is really insightful and dead on in so many areas.

Greg.

slarsen988@... wrote:

Hi, all. I also have uncomfortable feelings with my dad and have never

once asked him for help (nor has he ever offerred any -- bummer!) I've also been

pathetically grateful for whatever small gestures or gifts he may have given me

over the years, and have been basically trained to expect nothing from him,

emotionally or financially.

Although there's probably an underlying sexual dynamic, I think the

uncomfortableness in my case is more from the emotional dishonesty which is at

the core of our relationship. Part of it (on my end, anyway) is probably having

to listen to my nada put him down all the time (they're divorced) and feel

jealous and resentful if I ever seemed to show signs of affection for him. And I

often would get mad at my dad and AGREE with her, which then made me feel guilty

whenever I saw him.

But mostly I think it's kind of like, we both know he's been a really bad

father. Although he loves me, he's never stood up to my nada (or his new wife)

to insist on having a real, exclusive father-daughter relationship. He's just

been a dishrag forever, going along with whatever terms his wives have set. So,

he probably feels guilty about that. And I've been mad at him for it, and feel

guilty for being mad.

So whenever we're together, we're both just kind of feeling guilty and

inadequate.... and because he's a dishrag, I've been trained to consider him to

be " too fragile " to try talking honestly about ANY of this! Ugghhh.

I think the sexual element comes into it because we're LACKING that basic

father-daughter bond that would otherwise distinguish us from being just a man

and a woman alone in a room together.

Anyhow, just my thoughts!

Shana

Re: unresolved paternal complex

To: WTOAdultChildren1

> Liz and Charlie, I have definitely experienced uncomfortable

> feelings regarding my father - who is my biological father.

> These

> feelings are also shared by a sister close in age to me. My

> mother

> would talk to me about sex and how unsatisfied she was. She and

> my

> father would have arguments in front of us in which she would

> talk

> (scream)about him being unable to perform. She often made

> remarks

> and sneers to the effect of him regarding us or acting sexually

> inappropriate with us. My sister and I both have dirty and

> uncomfortable feelings associated with our father. We

> understand

> the source and how unfounded it is and try to limit the impact

> it

> has on our relationships with him. But I still feel

> uncomfortable

> sitting near or having physical contact with him.

>

> I think the feeling of discomfort may also be compounded by our

> fathers being somewhat uncomfortable. They love us and want to

> help

> and be important to us, but they have never been allowed to do

> so

> without the threat of criticism and ridicule. This results in

> their

> being self-conscious because they never were able or learned to

> relate to us without this shadow hanging over them. I agree

> that

> these relationships have been robbed by our mothers - from both

> us

> and our fathers. We can struggle beyond it to varying degrees,

> but

> I doubt it will ever cease to exist. Caitlyn

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I find this an interesting topic. Now my father has been dead since I was

three years old. And of course I wished he wasn't dead growing up and so

forth or that Nada would date and remarry so I could have a father figure

and all that. And the few memories I do have of my father when he was alive

and well ( I think I remember his dying better than his living sometimes- he

had malignant melanoma) are all good ones and my brother and I had a good

relationship with him.

But from time to time when I was growing up, and now about my brother, Nada

will have fears about sexual molestation that are unfounded.

I can think of at least one or two occasions when I was a little girl and I

had spent the night at a friends house for a slumber party or sleep over and

I came home and Nada was just sure I had been molested by their older

brothers or something. Naturally I told her that no, that had not occured,

and yes I would tell her if it ever did occur, and yes I would know what it

was, etc. And then I would tell her she was being crazy when she

persisted. One time after this I overheard part of a phone conversation to

someone likely a female relative of hers and she told this relative her

suspicion. I remember being shocked that Nada actually believed such a

thing especially after talking to me. It didn't make sense to me that she

was holding on to this theory that made such little sense.

Now she worries about my brother using public bathrooms because she fears he

might get molested in there. I think she saw a tv show on the subject once

and ever since then she has been hypervigalent. She was pretty sure it

happened once. She will avoid the gas station restrooms (though those are

usually the one person kind and hence safer) because they might be dirty and

not as well lit and she doesn't like ones that are busy and she will drag

him to department store ones that are more expensive rather than use the

general mall ones, etc. I'm not saying it doesn't pay to be vigalent, but

this seems like she overdoes it to me.

Also over the years she would sometimes make odd comments about how my

father would take pictures of me all the times and have me pose for the

camera too even if I was wearing a slip and he thought that was great and I

would act like I was some sort of high fasion model and be a ham. And she

would say the slip thing was wierd and what if he had still taken pictures

of me like that when I was older.... Of course there are also pictures of

both my brother and me naked in the tub. And pictures of me modeling in a

blanket. I used to think of blankets as the essence of fasion and towels

too. Wrap one around as a dress and another around as a cape or headpiece

and you had quite the outfit. And this was when I was a toddler so it

wasn't like dress up was abnormal.

My best friend when I was a little girl was sexually abused. Maybe this is

where some of Nada's ideas came from. Her father raped her and her older

sister on a regular basis. She finally told her teacher and got help (her

mother didn't believe her) and her father of course was removed from the

home and all that but after a while he got to move back in after he was

treated and all that I guess. We grew apart over the years- actually not

long after that and I think, looking back, she might have been distancing

herself from some of the friends she had then and making a new slate and all

that. And I get that. I still think of her time to time. for a while we

lived accross the street from them when I was really little and then we

moved and we heard this story from the neighbor and it made a lot of sense

and so foth. And my mother had only rarely let me visit there before and

that was the reason why or something but if she suspected soemthing why

didn't she ever make a report?

Looking back I think some of her percieved threats of sexual molestation may

of have come from boredom. I just don't know- its only a guess.

-Ata

>

> Wow, Shana,

>

> That is really insightful and dead on in so many areas.

>

> Greg.

>

> slarsen988@... <slarsen988%40optonline.net> wrote:

> Hi, all. I also have uncomfortable feelings with my dad and have never

> once asked him for help (nor has he ever offerred any -- bummer!) I've also

> been pathetically grateful for whatever small gestures or gifts he may have

> given me over the years, and have been basically trained to expect nothing

> from him, emotionally or financially.

>

> Although there's probably an underlying sexual dynamic, I think the

> uncomfortableness in my case is more from the emotional dishonesty which is

> at the core of our relationship. Part of it (on my end, anyway) is probably

> having to listen to my nada put him down all the time (they're divorced) and

> feel jealous and resentful if I ever seemed to show signs of affection for

> him. And I often would get mad at my dad and AGREE with her, which then made

> me feel guilty whenever I saw him.

>

> But mostly I think it's kind of like, we both know he's been a really bad

> father. Although he loves me, he's never stood up to my nada (or his new

> wife) to insist on having a real, exclusive father-daughter relationship.

> He's just been a dishrag forever, going along with whatever terms his wives

> have set. So, he probably feels guilty about that. And I've been mad at him

> for it, and feel guilty for being mad.

>

> So whenever we're together, we're both just kind of feeling guilty and

> inadequate.... and because he's a dishrag, I've been trained to consider him

> to be " too fragile " to try talking honestly about ANY of this! Ugghhh.

>

> I think the sexual element comes into it because we're LACKING that basic

> father-daughter bond that would otherwise distinguish us from being just a

> man and a woman alone in a room together.

>

> Anyhow, just my thoughts!

>

> Shana

>

> Re: unresolved paternal complex

> To: WTOAdultChildren1 <WTOAdultChildren1%40yahoogroups.com>

>

> > Liz and Charlie, I have definitely experienced uncomfortable

> > feelings regarding my father - who is my biological father.

> > These

> > feelings are also shared by a sister close in age to me. My

> > mother

> > would talk to me about sex and how unsatisfied she was. She and

> > my

> > father would have arguments in front of us in which she would

> > talk

> > (scream)about him being unable to perform. She often made

> > remarks

> > and sneers to the effect of him regarding us or acting sexually

> > inappropriate with us. My sister and I both have dirty and

> > uncomfortable feelings associated with our father. We

> > understand

> > the source and how unfounded it is and try to limit the impact

> > it

> > has on our relationships with him. But I still feel

> > uncomfortable

> > sitting near or having physical contact with him.

> >

> > I think the feeling of discomfort may also be compounded by our

> > fathers being somewhat uncomfortable. They love us and want to

> > help

> > and be important to us, but they have never been allowed to do

> > so

> > without the threat of criticism and ridicule. This results in

> > their

> > being self-conscious because they never were able or learned to

> > relate to us without this shadow hanging over them. I agree

> > that

> > these relationships have been robbed by our mothers - from both

> > us

> > and our fathers. We can struggle beyond it to varying degrees,

> > but

> > I doubt it will ever cease to exist. Caitlyn

> >

> >

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

One thing I meant to add is that now being a newly wed with my husband as

the main bread winner and someone who takes care of me when I am not feeling

well and just in general he takes care of me I feel sort of guilty because

sometimes I get these brief flashes where I feel like I am in some sort of

parent child role type relationship with him acting as parent and that seems

pretty messed up to me.

Of course I know better since I take care of him too and all that, but I

guess it is touching on some issues I have and need to deal with in therapy

because I feel guilty in this role with him as a caretaker of me sometimes.

-Ata

>

> I find this an interesting topic. Now my father has been dead since I was

> three years old. And of course I wished he wasn't dead growing up and so

> forth or that Nada would date and remarry so I could have a father figure

> and all that. And the few memories I do have of my father when he was alive

> and well ( I think I remember his dying better than his living sometimes- he

> had malignant melanoma) are all good ones and my brother and I had a good

> relationship with him.

>

> But from time to time when I was growing up, and now about my brother,

> Nada will have fears about sexual molestation that are unfounded.

>

> I can think of at least one or two occasions when I was a little girl and

> I had spent the night at a friends house for a slumber party or sleep over

> and I came home and Nada was just sure I had been molested by their older

> brothers or something. Naturally I told her that no, that had not occured,

> and yes I would tell her if it ever did occur, and yes I would know what it

> was, etc. And then I would tell her she was being crazy when she

> persisted. One time after this I overheard part of a phone conversation to

> someone likely a female relative of hers and she told this relative her

> suspicion. I remember being shocked that Nada actually believed such a

> thing especially after talking to me. It didn't make sense to me that she

> was holding on to this theory that made such little sense.

>

> Now she worries about my brother using public bathrooms because she fears

> he might get molested in there. I think she saw a tv show on the subject

> once and ever since then she has been hypervigalent. She was pretty sure it

> happened once. She will avoid the gas station restrooms (though those are

> usually the one person kind and hence safer) because they might be dirty and

> not as well lit and she doesn't like ones that are busy and she will drag

> him to department store ones that are more expensive rather than use the

> general mall ones, etc. I'm not saying it doesn't pay to be vigalent, but

> this seems like she overdoes it to me.

>

> Also over the years she would sometimes make odd comments about how my

> father would take pictures of me all the times and have me pose for the

> camera too even if I was wearing a slip and he thought that was great and I

> would act like I was some sort of high fasion model and be a ham. And she

> would say the slip thing was wierd and what if he had still taken pictures

> of me like that when I was older.... Of course there are also pictures of

> both my brother and me naked in the tub. And pictures of me modeling in a

> blanket. I used to think of blankets as the essence of fasion and towels

> too. Wrap one around as a dress and another around as a cape or headpiece

> and you had quite the outfit. And this was when I was a toddler so it

> wasn't like dress up was abnormal.

>

> My best friend when I was a little girl was sexually abused. Maybe this

> is where some of Nada's ideas came from. Her father raped her and her older

> sister on a regular basis. She finally told her teacher and got help (her

> mother didn't believe her) and her father of course was removed from the

> home and all that but after a while he got to move back in after he was

> treated and all that I guess. We grew apart over the years- actually not

> long after that and I think, looking back, she might have been distancing

> herself from some of the friends she had then and making a new slate and all

> that. And I get that. I still think of her time to time. for a while we

> lived accross the street from them when I was really little and then we

> moved and we heard this story from the neighbor and it made a lot of sense

> and so foth. And my mother had only rarely let me visit there before and

> that was the reason why or something but if she suspected soemthing why

> didn't she ever make a report?

>

> Looking back I think some of her percieved threats of sexual molestation

> may of have come from boredom. I just don't know- its only a guess.

>

> -Ata

>

>

>

> >

> > Wow, Shana,

> >

> > That is really insightful and dead on in so many areas.

> >

> > Greg.

> >

> > slarsen988@... <slarsen988%40optonline.net> wrote:

> > Hi, all. I also have uncomfortable feelings with my dad and have never

> > once asked him for help (nor has he ever offerred any -- bummer!) I've also

> > been pathetically grateful for whatever small gestures or gifts he may have

> > given me over the years, and have been basically trained to expect nothing

> > from him, emotionally or financially.

> >

> > Although there's probably an underlying sexual dynamic, I think the

> > uncomfortableness in my case is more from the emotional dishonesty which is

> > at the core of our relationship. Part of it (on my end, anyway) is probably

> > having to listen to my nada put him down all the time (they're divorced) and

> > feel jealous and resentful if I ever seemed to show signs of affection for

> > him. And I often would get mad at my dad and AGREE with her, which then made

> > me feel guilty whenever I saw him.

> >

> > But mostly I think it's kind of like, we both know he's been a really

> > bad father. Although he loves me, he's never stood up to my nada (or his new

> > wife) to insist on having a real, exclusive father-daughter relationship.

> > He's just been a dishrag forever, going along with whatever terms his wives

> > have set. So, he probably feels guilty about that. And I've been mad at him

> > for it, and feel guilty for being mad.

> >

> > So whenever we're together, we're both just kind of feeling guilty and

> > inadequate.... and because he's a dishrag, I've been trained to consider him

> > to be " too fragile " to try talking honestly about ANY of this! Ugghhh.

> >

> > I think the sexual element comes into it because we're LACKING that

> > basic father-daughter bond that would otherwise distinguish us from being

> > just a man and a woman alone in a room together.

> >

> > Anyhow, just my thoughts!

> >

> > Shana

> >

> > Re: unresolved paternal complex

> > To: WTOAdultChildren1 <WTOAdultChildren1%40yahoogroups.com>

> >

> > > Liz and Charlie, I have definitely experienced uncomfortable

> > > feelings regarding my father - who is my biological father.

> > > These

> > > feelings are also shared by a sister close in age to me. My

> > > mother

> > > would talk to me about sex and how unsatisfied she was. She and

> > > my

> > > father would have arguments in front of us in which she would

> > > talk

> > > (scream)about him being unable to perform. She often made

> > > remarks

> > > and sneers to the effect of him regarding us or acting sexually

> > > inappropriate with us. My sister and I both have dirty and

> > > uncomfortable feelings associated with our father. We

> > > understand

> > > the source and how unfounded it is and try to limit the impact

> > > it

> > > has on our relationships with him. But I still feel

> > > uncomfortable

> > > sitting near or having physical contact with him.

> > >

> > > I think the feeling of discomfort may also be compounded by our

> > > fathers being somewhat uncomfortable. They love us and want to

> > > help

> > > and be important to us, but they have never been allowed to do

> > > so

> > > without the threat of criticism and ridicule. This results in

> > > their

> > > being self-conscious because they never were able or learned to

> > > relate to us without this shadow hanging over them. I agree

> > > that

> > > these relationships have been robbed by our mothers - from both

> > > us

> > > and our fathers. We can struggle beyond it to varying degrees,

> > > but

> > > I doubt it will ever cease to exist. Caitlyn

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Dear Ata,

This really rang true to me. I recently started dating someone I am truly

attracted to, and I

had a terrible nightmare that we were sleeping together in my parents' bedroom

in the

house where I grew up. I think the roles of parent and lover were so mixed up

in our

nadas' minds, that this was passed on to us.

Your first post made me realize something, too. My nada told me that when I was

3, I was

sexually molested by a boy in the woods. I have absolutely no memory of that,

but I DO

remember her brutually hitting me when I came back for the woods. I am thinking

now,

maybe it never happened--maybe SHE was molested and she was projecting it on to

me. I

know she was obsessed with my body and my sisters, and would accuse us of

wearing

clothes that were too revealing literally every time we stepped out of the

house. She has a

particular problem with strapless dresses. A word she uses all the

time--still--is 'hanging

out'. She constantly accuses me or my sister or people she sees on tv as

'hanging out of

that dress'... ANY dress.

I wear pants a lot ...

Charlie

> > > Hi, all. I also have uncomfortable feelings with my dad and have never

> > > once asked him for help (nor has he ever offerred any -- bummer!) I've

also

> > > been pathetically grateful for whatever small gestures or gifts he may

have

> > > given me over the years, and have been basically trained to expect nothing

> > > from him, emotionally or financially.

> > >

> > > Although there's probably an underlying sexual dynamic, I think the

> > > uncomfortableness in my case is more from the emotional dishonesty which

is

> > > at the core of our relationship. Part of it (on my end, anyway) is

probably

> > > having to listen to my nada put him down all the time (they're divorced)

and

> > > feel jealous and resentful if I ever seemed to show signs of affection for

> > > him. And I often would get mad at my dad and AGREE with her, which then

made

> > > me feel guilty whenever I saw him.

> > >

> > > But mostly I think it's kind of like, we both know he's been a really

> > > bad father. Although he loves me, he's never stood up to my nada (or his

new

> > > wife) to insist on having a real, exclusive father-daughter relationship.

> > > He's just been a dishrag forever, going along with whatever terms his

wives

> > > have set. So, he probably feels guilty about that. And I've been mad at

him

> > > for it, and feel guilty for being mad.

> > >

> > > So whenever we're together, we're both just kind of feeling guilty and

> > > inadequate.... and because he's a dishrag, I've been trained to consider

him

> > > to be " too fragile " to try talking honestly about ANY of this! Ugghhh.

> > >

> > > I think the sexual element comes into it because we're LACKING that

> > > basic father-daughter bond that would otherwise distinguish us from being

> > > just a man and a woman alone in a room together.

> > >

> > > Anyhow, just my thoughts!

> > >

> > > Shana

> > >

> > > Re: unresolved paternal complex

> > > To: WTOAdultChildren1 <WTOAdultChildren1%

40yahoogroups.com>

> > >

> > > > Liz and Charlie, I have definitely experienced uncomfortable

> > > > feelings regarding my father - who is my biological father.

> > > > These

> > > > feelings are also shared by a sister close in age to me. My

> > > > mother

> > > > would talk to me about sex and how unsatisfied she was. She and

> > > > my

> > > > father would have arguments in front of us in which she would

> > > > talk

> > > > (scream)about him being unable to perform. She often made

> > > > remarks

> > > > and sneers to the effect of him regarding us or acting sexually

> > > > inappropriate with us. My sister and I both have dirty and

> > > > uncomfortable feelings associated with our father. We

> > > > understand

> > > > the source and how unfounded it is and try to limit the impact

> > > > it

> > > > has on our relationships with him. But I still feel

> > > > uncomfortable

> > > > sitting near or having physical contact with him.

> > > >

> > > > I think the feeling of discomfort may also be compounded by our

> > > > fathers being somewhat uncomfortable. They love us and want to

> > > > help

> > > > and be important to us, but they have never been allowed to do

> > > > so

> > > > without the threat of criticism and ridicule. This results in

> > > > their

> > > > being self-conscious because they never were able or learned to

> > > > relate to us without this shadow hanging over them. I agree

> > > > that

> > > > these relationships have been robbed by our mothers - from both

> > > > us

> > > > and our fathers. We can struggle beyond it to varying degrees,

> > > > but

> > > > I doubt it will ever cease to exist. Caitlyn

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Dear Liz,

You were the first one to reply to this thread at a time I sorely needed

replies. Thank you

so very much. Your post was validating and helpful to me.

I understand exactly what you mean about feeling 'wifely'. I am single and in

my 30s, and

I have for awhile thought that it was about this--that it was an anti-feminist

attitude of my

father's--that, now I am older, I'm supposed to have my own 'man', and for him

to be my

'man' is too inappropriate because it's as if he is my husband. Your post is

helping me to

see the inaccuracy of this. It's a distortion. It's a carry-over of nada

making me feel like I

was trying to be his 'wife' just by being his daughter. It's a carry over of

nada trying to

make her own children HER lovers. It's a carry over of the WHOLE situation

being

complicated and messed up. No wonder there are days when I can't fight the

intrusions!

God, people who haven't encountered bpd just have no IDEA the damage these

people can

do to their children.

Charlie

>

> Dear Charlie,

>

> Because of what your nada did, I can see where contact with your dad would

> make you feel creepy and wrong. However, this is simply another thing that

> woman has robbed you of: A loving relationship with your dad which can and

> should involved physical contact and being able to ask for help.

>

> I felt the same way about my dishrag dad who is now dead. I've always

> thought it was because I was actually his step-daughter, though he adopted

> me when I was four. Nada told me I was like a 'real' daughter to him and in

> the next breath said I should be glad he 'took me in', so I never really

> forgot my position in the family. I always assumed that was why I felt so

> uncomfortable around him.

>

> That and the fact that (though she told him -- and me -- that if he ever

> touched me, she'd kill him) she encouraged him when he embarrassed me

> regarding my developing body, after which they would laugh about what a

> prude I was.

>

> So, I didn't like to be alone with my dad either. It made me squirm and that

> made me feel guilty and confused. I didn't like to ask for help. It almost

> made me feel wifely. Does that make any sense? Especially after I grew

> up. Like when asking for his help. I was a woman and he was a man. We

> weren't father and daughter. I really, really don't get it.

>

> It's complicated and sick, isn't it? But I venture to say there are plenty

> of us out here in the shadows who feel these things and just haven't had the

> nerve to bring it up. It seems like sex is a hot issue with BPs. I know I

> listened to a lot of inappropriate things from my mother as a little

> kid--about her sex life, about my future sex life, about how I should learn

> to kiss, get good at it, practice--but don't have sex before marriage! God,

> forbid, oh, no!

>

> You also mentioned the Electra complex which is so normal for little girls.

> None of us girls ever felt that for Dad and I have often wondered why. When

> my own sons reached the I-want-to-marry-my-mommy stage, nada successfully

> diverted that love away from me and toward my sisters. It seems nearly

> impossible for anyone in their purview to mature sexually in normal ways

> when being mothered by these women.

>

> I hope you can come to grips with this before your dad dies as he sounds

> like a decent man. I'd like it if you could love him fearlessly and by

> extension, love those men in the world in whom you recognized your dad's

> good qualities.

>

> Liz

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>>>>>>Anyway. It is

thought among

bpd scholars that split bad children get bpd; but it has always been my

contention that

split GOOD children are the ones who get bpd, because they were not

hurt enough

to

question their nada's reality, whereas split bad children had to

question it--or

else kill

themselves from the shame. I am glad I chose to question.>>>>>>

******Charlotte, I,too, agree that in my family my oldest sister was

mother's 'princess'. My second sister was very aware of it being just

two years younger. I came along 10 years later and kind of had all

the roles wrapped up in one. But looking at both my sisters and

myself, I really believe the 'princess' is in the most trouble. She

still views herself that way and is more self-centered, values what

everybody out there in her society thinks of her, is not in the real

world, and can blow up from time to time like no one I have ever seen

before. I think she has more BP fleas or traits than either my other

sister or myself. She is blind to it all, however, as she really

doesn't do any self-introspection. My second sister and I have been

much more independent and have known something was wrong with mother

for years, though we didn't know what. The princess couldn't see or

wouldn't admit (out of loyalty?) that mother really was ill. Anyway,

I'd rather be split black, I think. At least you are aware something

is vastly wrong. Dee

[Guest guest]

Dear Charlie,

I've been reading every post in this thread and feeling relieved that

feeling weird around my dad isn't just me being a sicko. This thread, when

put with all the other posts, tells me one thing: Our mothers just aren't

happy until we have no one ---no one but them, that is--- and they will

use every dirty, underhanded mind-trick to make it so.

Liz

>

> Dear Liz,

>

> You were the first one to reply to this thread at a time I sorely needed

> replies. Thank you

> so very much. Your post was validating and helpful to me.

>

> I understand exactly what you mean about feeling 'wifely'. I am single and

> in my 30s, and

> I have for awhile thought that it was about this--that it was an

> anti-feminist attitude of my

> father's--that, now I am older, I'm supposed to have my own 'man', and for

> him to be my

> 'man' is too inappropriate because it's as if he is my husband. Your post

> is helping me to

> see the inaccuracy of this. It's a distortion. It's a carry-over of nada

> making me feel like I

> was trying to be his 'wife' just by being his daughter. It's a carry over

> of nada trying to

> make her own children HER lovers. It's a carry over of the WHOLE situation

> being

> complicated and messed up. No wonder there are days when I can't fight the

> intrusions!

>

> God, people who haven't encountered bpd just have no IDEA the damage these

> people can

> do to their children.

>

> Charlie

>

[Guest guest]

Charlie, Greg,

Its so strange how systematic Nada's are. Not all are nada's are so

alike because some act in or out, but one things for sure and that is

their unpredictablilty. Hence you Charlie hiding from your beauty,

don't want to be that, it might trigger her, right. Anyway, my mother

often used the term " hanging out " also. I agree with you and Greg; she

is totally projecting! Don't hide away your assets, don't try to keep

the sharks from circling in nada's head; with you getting wise to

these things it seems nada's loosing most of her clout. Your strong.

Its great to see someone bring up something so relavent to the

surviving NonBp eye.

> > > > Hi, all. I also have uncomfortable feelings with my dad and

have never

> > > > once asked him for help (nor has he ever offerred any --

bummer!) I've also

> > > > been pathetically grateful for whatever small gestures or

gifts he may have

> > > > given me over the years, and have been basically trained to

expect nothing

> > > > from him, emotionally or financially.

> > > >

> > > > Although there's probably an underlying sexual dynamic, I

think the

> > > > uncomfortableness in my case is more from the emotional

dishonesty which is

> > > > at the core of our relationship. Part of it (on my end,

anyway) is probably

> > > > having to listen to my nada put him down all the time (they're

divorced) and

> > > > feel jealous and resentful if I ever seemed to show signs of

affection for

> > > > him. And I often would get mad at my dad and AGREE with her,

which then made

> > > > me feel guilty whenever I saw him.

> > > >

> > > > But mostly I think it's kind of like, we both know he's been a

really

> > > > bad father. Although he loves me, he's never stood up to my

nada (or his new

> > > > wife) to insist on having a real, exclusive father-daughter

relationship.

> > > > He's just been a dishrag forever, going along with whatever

terms his wives

> > > > have set. So, he probably feels guilty about that. And I've

been mad at him

> > > > for it, and feel guilty for being mad.

> > > >

> > > > So whenever we're together, we're both just kind of feeling

guilty and

> > > > inadequate.... and because he's a dishrag, I've been trained

to consider him

> > > > to be " too fragile " to try talking honestly about ANY of this!

Ugghhh.

> > > >

> > > > I think the sexual element comes into it because we're LACKING

that

> > > > basic father-daughter bond that would otherwise distinguish us

from being

> > > > just a man and a woman alone in a room together.

> > > >

> > > > Anyhow, just my thoughts!

> > > >

> > > > Shana

> > > >

> > > > Re: unresolved paternal complex

> > > > To: WTOAdultChildren1 <WTOAdultChildren1%

> 40yahoogroups.com>

> > > >

> > > > > Liz and Charlie, I have definitely experienced uncomfortable

> > > > > feelings regarding my father - who is my biological father.

> > > > > These

> > > > > feelings are also shared by a sister close in age to me. My

> > > > > mother

> > > > > would talk to me about sex and how unsatisfied she was. She and

> > > > > my

> > > > > father would have arguments in front of us in which she would

> > > > > talk

> > > > > (scream)about him being unable to perform. She often made

> > > > > remarks

> > > > > and sneers to the effect of him regarding us or acting sexually

> > > > > inappropriate with us. My sister and I both have dirty and

> > > > > uncomfortable feelings associated with our father. We

> > > > > understand

> > > > > the source and how unfounded it is and try to limit the impact

> > > > > it

> > > > > has on our relationships with him. But I still feel

> > > > > uncomfortable

> > > > > sitting near or having physical contact with him.

> > > > >

> > > > > I think the feeling of discomfort may also be compounded by our

> > > > > fathers being somewhat uncomfortable. They love us and want to

> > > > > help

> > > > > and be important to us, but they have never been allowed to do

> > > > > so

> > > > > without the threat of criticism and ridicule. This results in

> > > > > their

> > > > > being self-conscious because they never were able or learned to

> > > > > relate to us without this shadow hanging over them. I agree

> > > > > that

> > > > > these relationships have been robbed by our mothers - from both

> > > > > us

> > > > > and our fathers. We can struggle beyond it to varying degrees,

> > > > > but

> > > > > I doubt it will ever cease to exist. Caitlyn

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

Charlie and all, I meant to reply to this thread earlier, but I'm glad

it's still going. The dynamic makes total sense to me. My nada is

extremely jealous of any time that any of us kids spend with just my

dad--not just me being the daughter. Once when I insisted on spending

time alone with my dad, she disowned me--for like 30 minutes. She has

also spent plenty of time making my dad look like a jerk--to the point

that I sometimes believe it without even considering if it's true.

And then. . .nada has a history of accusing folks of sexually

molesting people---I STILL feel uncomfortable around my

grandfather(paternal) because my nada brought me in and interrogated

me as to whether he'd ever been inappropriate with me and then told me

all of these stories about how he'd hit on my aunts etc. YUCK! He's

not my dad, so it's less traumatizing, but I've never actually had the

guts to find out if he's a pervert or not and I just totally avoid him

in general. Perhaps it's divide and conquer. I dunno.

Also, Charlie, I literally dressed like a boy until I was well into

college--I actually wore clothes that were handed down from my

brothers and dad---with boots! I think it's perfectly normal given my

upbringing. I liked Greg's advice of going shopping for some

lingerie! But I actually found that I healed from the a-sexual

clothing and general fear of sexuality thing when I finally went FAR

FAR away--my first job in Europe.

I began to shop alone. I think it was the single most important move

I've ever made after all the poisoned shopping with nada. It took

time to learn how to do it, but I soon learned to disentangle myself

from nada's ever shifting view of how I looked. I remember once,

early in my healing process, I was shopping with nada and dared to try

on a size " medium " and buy it because it fit better. First she made

fun of me and said something about me looking slutty--when I stood up

to her and pointed out the baggy and droopy places in the size large,

she got annoyed and literally said, " You little B@(#*tch! I could

never wear a medium. " Anyway, it demonstrated to me just how blatant

her garbage was and just what a bad influence she was on me.

I've been working on all of this purposely for about . . .8 years now

and feel pretty good about my sexuality, my self-immage and my ability

to dress--but still know I have a ways to go. I think these things

can be deeply engrained and take time and effort to heal. Don't beat

yourself up about it. I know you've got a good therapist too, which

makes a huge difference.

Trish