Jump to content
RemedySpot.com

Re:

Rate this topic


Guest guest

Recommended Posts

Hi ,

You did not sound like a jerk!! I really had a awful time with my first surgery.

I told my boss today that I may not be able to keep up the 7 hrs. My back hurt

so bad last night.

I am sorry about your job. I really understand that too. I stayed home for 10

yrs with the kids, But because of health issues I could not have had a job. When

my daughter went to first grade I was so lonesome. The next year I work at the

preschool at my church with baby thru 2's. I got everything the kids brought in,

I thought my back would brake. I also found out after changing 15 diapers a day

that I was allergic to latex.

I guess what I am trying to say is that It is really hard. I have had a total of

7 surgeries in 15 yrs. the last 3 in the past year and half. So I don't really

know what is normal and I never have a pain free day. That is why I am glad that

I have this group to remind me that I need to take it easy on my body. It is the

only one I have.

I really do understand your frustration. I want to be better right now. I really

may be pushing the envelope to soon with going back to work.

Well I got to go .

take care,

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is scary. It isn't really a given that you will have some but it can

happen anywhere. I think it is weird though because it can hurt but at the

same time you touch it and can't feel the touch.

-- Re:

Sender:

To: tetheredspinalcord <tetheredspinalcord >

Reply-To: tetheredspinalcord

Message-ID: <001b01c264aa$b5c85c20$5da75f18@hvbqv>

Hi Pat,

Thanks for setting me straight! :-) I am very glad you can now do what you

do and am sorry you had to go through all you have to get back to work. I am

also sorry if I came off like a jerk. Unfortunately at this point I probably

am, but it really hurt especially yesterday. You see I had to tell my

employer I didn't know a date when I " would be better and able to return to

work, " so I lost my job. You pushed buttons. .

Also, thanks for the information on wearing pants, I thought it was just me.

I still unbutton the pants most of the time around the house. It is just

very sensitive.

Again, sorry I hope I didn't push your buttons too bad.

..

Re:

Hi ,

First off I want to say you are not doing anything wrong.

This is my second surgery. My first was awful!!!! First off the doc did not

detether me. For the first 2 weeks I hurt so bad that I could not get up and

down by myself. I could not lift my own legs into bed my husband or kids

would do it for me. I could not sit down for long it was excruciating.

I could not wear jeans for 6 month because the pressure on my incision was

awful.

I don't know why this time it has been so different. I could get up and down

by myself this time right away. ( with the help of a walker) I felt better

in

some ways like my ankles were not hurting. I can lean my neck forward and is

less pain full. I also know the docs incision was much smaller and he used

internal stitches and the other doc used staples. Dr. removed 2

1/2

inches of scar tissue from my nerves and spinal cord.

I have been wearing pants after the first 3 weeks.

I have a desk job but I started work last week and this past weekend my back

hurt really bad and was having spasms. I am working from 9 to 3 . Luckily I

work for a company that said I could leave if I start hurting too bad. Today

by 200 I was ready to come home. It still hurts to push a heavy shopping

cart

and I am not supposed to lift anything heavy or bend from the waist.

I hope this helps.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 months later...
  • 2 weeks later...

kathy,

heather is 3 years old, she will be 4 on april, 14. her symptoms

are minor now, but, our nsg said that there is a very good chance

that she will be packing diapers in her backpack in middle school. i

will start at the beginning. she toe walked the first 2-3 months of

her walking life. at 2 years and 5 months, she could feel the need

to have a bowel movement every time, but only urine a couple of

times. at 2 years and 9 months, she was totally continent during the

day, totally dependent on diapers at night. she still wears diapers

at night, w/out a chance of getting out of them yet. they are soaked

through every morning. she has had 2-3 uti's, since she was potty

trained 1 year ago. she has to " run like the wind " to get to the

potty on time during the day. she was having frequent accidents,

they have slowed down the past 3 weeks. (of course, to add to our

confusion.) she has complained of foot pain 3-4 times until the last

3 weeks. in the last 3 weeks, she has complained of feet pain 4

times. once during ballet, once after school, once in the morning

when she first woke up, and yesterday, while she was sitting on the

couch and had been all day. (because she had a stomach virus.) at the

nsg office, she had hyper reflexes on the right side and also landed

on the ball of her foot when she ran on that side.

other than those mild symptoms, nothing. no scoliosis, yet.. no feet

deformities or leg length discrepancies. she does seem to have

slowed down in running. i thought that her toilet problems were from

regression from the birth of her 4 month old brother. i am sorry

that i am writing a novel.

i don't think that her symptoms are severe now, but, i am worried

what they might progress to. on the other hand, are they age related

and might get better? the nsg does not think so. i also spoke w/

the early retired past chief of surgery at kosair's children hospital

yesterday. he knows my father in law. he only sang moriarty's

praises and agreed that she needs untethered. to protect the

innocent, i won't mention names, but he agreed w/ my opinion of the

other nsg that we saw.

dr. thomas moriarty is our nsg, he is supposed to be excellent for

this. kosair's children hospital in louisville, kentucky bought

special equipment just to entice him to come to practice here. he

does mri assisted surgery. maybe everyone does, but i think that

there are only 5 in the usa. he comes highly recommended from other

patients and trained under a nsg in boston, who is supposedly first

in his field. my brother, mark, is good friends w/ a doc that is

good friends w/ dr. moriarty. blah, blah, blah,. this is enough

info, i am sure. thanks for your time and compassion. we are still

scared and a little confused. i am trying to trust the nsg, but as a

nurse, i know that this is not to be true. however, all of the

nurses at kosair's sing moriarty's praises. that says a lot there.

they say his bedside manner is bad, i say that is good. i asked if

he is known to throw a chart or two, they laughed and said and how

did you know? i said that i didn't, but i hoped that he was the

type. that type is a perfectionist. and that is what i want for my

daughter. i used to work in the open heart unit and recovery room w/

cardiac surgeons.

anyway, you seem so knowledgable on the subject, smart and

compassionate. thanks so much for your help. look forward to your

reply. thanks again, susan fenley.

> Hi

>

> I'd be cautious of any doctor that avoids answering your questions,

> indirectly or directly. However, in saying that, my own nsg

(neurosurgeon)

> avoided some of mine the first time around and I stuck with him and

he's

> truly been a life-saver for me in many ways.

>

> I have lipomeningocele (spinal cord is tethered to a benign tumor

(lipoma);

> however, the surgeries I've since have been from scar tissue

tethering my

> cord.)

>

> I was born with this (obviously), but wasn't diagnosed until I was

36 years

> old (or maybe 35?) Anyway, I'm 41 now. Before my first surgery I

really

> didn't have any pain at all. I had been avoiding and ignoring my

left calf

> disappearing on me (muscle wasting) and it wasn't until about five

years

> later when I started having bladder problems that I saw a doctor,

who sent

> me to a uro, who noticed I lacked reflexes on one side, had a

positive

> babinski, and had hyper reflexes on one side. I had other smaller

problems

> also...loss of sensation in my legs that I wasn't even aware of,

etc.

>

> They decided I needed the first surgery because of the muscle

wasting and

> bladder problems. However, I had had bladder problems constantly

as a child

> (kidney infections, peeing when laughing, constant bladder

infections), but

> that all stopped once I finished puberty. It wasn't until after

the birth

> of my fourth child that I started to have symptoms that I ignored

(the leg,

> etc.)

>

> After the first surgery I woke in pain and most of it never went

away. Then

> within a year spasticity started and not only was it very painful,

it was

> and still is, deforming my feet. I have other problems also. With

each

> surgery I would gain some things, lose some things, but always what

I gained

> I would lose within a year or so. It wasn't until after this last

surgery

> that it finally dawned on me that the advice a very smart nsg gave

me years

> ago was true for me.

>

> I saw Dr. Chapman (), at MGH (he was/is head of ped.

neurosurgery) after

> my first surgery when things declined. He explained to me that

this has

> happened to some of his adult patients also. He went on to say

that because

> I was symptomatic as a child with no intervention, that the nerves

in my

> spine were being damaged for thirty-five some years and when I was

> untethered as an adult, some of my nerves tried to heal and

couldn't, some

> went hay-wire, and some did some other great tricks. In other

words, I was

> doomed, but did need the first surgery to halt the progression of

the muscle

> wasting (which it did do.) He recommended no more surgeries. I

didn't

> listen because I desperately wanted to get better. I think my nsg

felt

> badly for me and after me begging him each time, he agreed to

operate each

> time.

>

> I was also born with a " stork bite " , an open hole just at the base

of my

> spine. A very tiny hole and it closed shortly after birth. My

parents were

> told that as long as I developed fine, that it was nothing to worry

about.

>

> I have spina bifida occulta, but so does my youngest daughter and

she has no

> other neural tube defects and should never have problems from it.

We've had

> all of our children's backs MRI'd and all came back fine. I also

have a

> Chiari malformation, which can go along with tethered cord, and we

had two

> of our children checked for this, only because they've had

headaches since

> they were young. Those both came back negative also.

>

> You don't need to have SBO to have any type of tethered cord.

There are

> some people on the list that have a tether and no SBO.

>

> As I said, the head of ped. nsgy told me if I had had surgery as a

child, I

> would have faired much better as an adult. However, I think that's

easier

> said than to prove since it's really only been since the advent of

the MRI

> (about what? Ten years now) that adults have getting diagnosed as

quickly

> as they should.

>

> You have to go with your own gut feeling as far as surgery for your

son.

> What symptoms does he have?

>

> Kathy

> occasional paralysis

> >

> >

> > Hi

> >

> > For the past seven-nine months (actually since my last surgery

in Feb.

> > 2002), I wake up with horrendous pain in my leg (almost always

my left -

> > actually, probably always my left which is the worst of the two

anyway.)

> > Sorry ... I wake with this horrible pain, but can't move my

leg. For

> the

> > longest time it was only happening when I woke up on my back.

My

> doctors

> > theoriorized that I was disturbing a nerve in my back which was

making

> this

> > occur.

> >

> > Last night I was awoken at 3:30 am with the pain (worst it's

ever been)

> and

> > completely unable to move my left leg; however, I was laying on

my right

> > side, so my left leg was on top of my right - so it wasn't like

my body

> > weight was making it numb and unable to move. It's starting to

get

> scary.

> >

> > It only took about ten minutes for me to finally get my leg to

move

> enough

> > so I could twist my torso and sit up - but by then the pain was

> horrible. I

> > groaned and woke my husband. I had to get out of the bed and

stand, but

> > when I tried, my leg had no strength in it (L) and I felt

backwards onto

> the

> > bed. After a few minutes, my husband got my crutch (arm) and

between

> that

> > and him helping the other side of me, I was able to get to the

couch and

> > take pills. It took over six hours for this pain to go away

enough so I

> > could move.

> >

> > Now, my leg is back to normal. But - just one more thing. The

other

> night

> > we were sitting in bleachers at my son's game. I tried to

climb up

> them,

> > and there was no way I could do it with my left leg. Last

winter I had

> no

> > problem, well, at least not like this. I fell face forward

trying to

> climb

> > onto the bleachers.

> >

> > Anyway - I'm wondering, does anyone else experiencing these

fleeting

> moments

> > of paralysis during the night? If so, do you know what causes

them?

> >

> > Thanks,

> >

> > Kathy

> >

> >

> >

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 months later...
  • 3 weeks later...
  • 1 month later...
Guest guest

Yes my school is pretty big lol getting around should be

interesting. But hopefully since I only have 4 classes this year I

will only have one or none at all upstairs. But I know that I will

have a class in the building that is on the far end up the school,

and it happens to require " building " sets for school plays, so that

should be interesting I guess lol. I am going to try and get in as

early as possible for the surgery though so I wont have to deal with

that at all, I would rather be on crutches during summer when I dont

have to do as much rather then at school. I hope that your foot

quits bothering you too. It definately is not a fun experience.

M.

>

> Sorry you have to have surgery on your foot. I am glad that

it may

> help relieve your pain, though. I just posted about my own foot

issues so I can

> imagine how oyu feel. I hope that your surgery goes well. That

does sound like

> a not so fun way to start school. Hopefully you can get around ok.

Are there

> lots of stairs and a big school?Hopefully they can make

accomodations to make

> it as easy as possible. Take care

>

>

>

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 year later...
Guest guest

My MIL died on Monday of complications of a stroke suffered two weeks ago

-Sorry to hear she didn't make it. I know you guys are exhausted and

sad. When there isn't much hope, the waiting and wondering can be totally

debilitating. You're all in my prayers.

Coral

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest guest

My MIL died on Monday of complications of a stroke suffered two weeks ago

-Sorry to hear she didn't make it. I know you guys are exhausted and

sad. When there isn't much hope, the waiting and wondering can be totally

debilitating. You're all in my prayers.

Coral

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest guest

My MIL died on Monday of complications of a stroke suffered two weeks ago

-Sorry to hear she didn't make it. I know you guys are exhausted and

sad. When there isn't much hope, the waiting and wondering can be totally

debilitating. You're all in my prayers.

Coral

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 6 years later...

Hi, ,

I think one of the main problems in the professional world is that so few people really understand 4S in all it's aspects. I cannot claim, yet, to have the answers - most of all because I think it is not a simple "let's do this" solution, but rather a multi-discipine approach that is required. My first wish is to get the information out there to doctors, consultants, specialists, and as much of the population as possible. The 4Sgroup can help in this endeavor by talking to others about it, explaining it to their doctors, audiologists even friends in order to bring it out into the open. If Dr. Phil had taken some time to do some research he might have helped the cause a lot by explaining 4S ON AIR, rather than telling the woman on his show to de-stress. What a shame to miss such an opportunity. Oprah has helped so many causes that previously have been hidden away, just by gathering information and then having the courage to discuss it. If each person on this group could inform 5 people, and ask them to inform even one other, the information would spread like wildfire. More people would take up the cause, research might be initiated, and good science prevail. Not to mention good solutions. But it is up to everyone; I can only do what I can.

As far as sound generators, open ear, wearable models are recommended. 4S is often accompanied by sensitivity to other stimuli, however, and some people may not like the feel of them. Experimenting with other models is useful in this case.

The brain is "plastic" and can become desensitised to certain sounds. Using pink sound to refocus the auditory cortex's attention from obnoxious sound often decreases the impact. Over time, and with the lessening the use, certain loud sounds may become intolerable. Like with Tinnitus Retraining Therapy, I believe good counselling is imperative, and hypnotherapy can be invaluable. But the practitioners need to know what they are dealing with, not just pull some intervention out of the hat and hope it will fit. I believe that is why some people have written in and said it does not work. There is an audio download on the market, based on the NLP fast phobia cure that I have listened to (by the way, I do not have 4S); it is a commercial rendition, directed to anyone in general, not to EACH person. 4S is highly personal and not simplistic, and I doubt this kind of approach would be of any use. Diet has also been mentioned, plus Omega 3's. There might be vitamin and mineral deficiencies also, and different intolerances. All this needs to be looked into.

All in all, lots of work to do, patience required, and courage to get out there and do it. Please keep me posted on how you are getting on. I would like at some point to run all this, and whatever else I have found, by Marsha in Oregon, as I am presently on the west coast (but basically live in Europe)

With regards, and best wishes for the holiday season,

Tara

Tara Economakis, Dip.AdvHyp,(N-SHAP),MCRAH,UKCPTelephone 01488-685151/ 686881info@...www.lastingchanges.co.uk

To: Soundsensitivity From: jenny_woolfson@...Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 16:51:01 +0000Subject: Re: Help please

Hi again Tara,In terms of wearable sound generators, won't this just mask the intrusive noises and make it more difficult to deal with them? I used to wear earphones with pink noise playing in them when I was in the university library, to avoid hearing other people talk and type. However, when I took the earplugs out, I felt a bit dizzy and disorientated for a while afterwards.> > >> > > Escape on a holiday? :)> > > > > > Try and talk your self down . Do some breathing exercises and keep saying to your self you are calm. www.transparentcorp.com on that site is something that may help you too. Download the neuro programmer 3 and listen to the anxiety tracks or an alpha track or theta track. You can put scripts in there such as " I find the sound of revving cars soothing" or something similar> > > > > > You can try and play a game with the sounds too, so when you hear a revv try and guess the type, if u get it right reward your self.> > > > > > NLP may also be helpful, also look up "tapping" its a form of nlp cbt and acupuncture (sort of) rolled into one and is very effective in some cases .> > > > > > Good luck> > > > > > Rich> > > Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone on 3> > > > > > Help please> > > > > > Hi guys,> > > > > > I live on a main road and today, roadworks started right outside my house which has caused me so much anxiety, especially since I've not been feeling very well. Obviously as it's nighttime, the roadworks have stopped but temporary traffic lights have been installed outside my house and the traffic noise is now causing me a lot of stress. Every minute or so, I heard the revving of engines, which makes my heart jump. Usually I just hear a steady stream of traffic outside, but now I'm hearing cars revving and the floor almost vibrates. I wondered if anyone had any tips to help me cope with this. I have avoided so far putting my earplugs in, but now I'm sitting with my headphones on because I feel so tired and frazzled as a result of the stress this has caused.> > > > > > Please help xxx> > >> >>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Tara,

Thank you for replying to me in such detail. I agree that professinals seem to

not understand 4S and there certainly isn't a cure for it as yet, as there is

for many more common ailments. I have looked into TRT and I'm hoping this might

help. May I ask what sound generators are, what they actually do? I don't mind

the feeling of things in my ears as I wear earplugs every night. I would be

afraid of wearing sound generators as they appear to mask sound (I may be wrong

here) and I would be afraid that when I took them out, sounds would be enhanced

and even more scary than they are just now. I am currently at a bit of a loss

because I dread the sound of traffic every morning and am sitting here

constantly frightened by the noise outside, but there seems to be no help

available.

> > > >

> > > > Escape on a holiday? :)

> > > >

> > > > Try and talk your self down . Do some breathing exercises and keep

saying to your self you are calm. www.transparentcorp.com on that site is

something that may help you too. Download the neuro programmer 3 and listen to

the anxiety tracks or an alpha track or theta track. You can put scripts in

there such as " I find the sound of revving cars soothing " or something similar

> > > >

> > > > You can try and play a game with the sounds too, so when you hear a revv

try and guess the type, if u get it right reward your self.

> > > >

> > > > NLP may also be helpful, also look up " tapping " its a form of nlp cbt

and acupuncture (sort of) rolled into one and is very effective in some cases .

> > > >

> > > > Good luck

> > > >

> > > > Rich

> > > > Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone on 3

> > > >

> > > > Help please

> > > >

> > > > Hi guys,

> > > >

> > > > I live on a main road and today, roadworks started right outside my

house which has caused me so much anxiety, especially since I've not been

feeling very well. Obviously as it's nighttime, the roadworks have stopped but

temporary traffic lights have been installed outside my house and the traffic

noise is now causing me a lot of stress. Every minute or so, I heard the revving

of engines, which makes my heart jump. Usually I just hear a steady stream of

traffic outside, but now I'm hearing cars revving and the floor almost vibrates.

I wondered if anyone had any tips to help me cope with this. I have avoided so

far putting my earplugs in, but now I'm sitting with my headphones on because I

feel so tired and frazzled as a result of the stress this has caused.

> > > >

> > > > Please help xxx

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi, , A wearable sound generator fits behind the ear and is like a digital hearing aid. It emits a very soft white/pink noise (I believe you can adjust it). They should be applied under the supervision of an sudiologist with experience in this process of desensitisation. The effect results in a reduced perception of previously distressing sounds. WSG's do not mask, rather aid in habituation. Over several months, due to changes in the auditory neuronal networks, there is a permanent change in auditory discomfort. However,according to J. Hazell in the UK, "no permanent change can be achieved in misophonia cases without a successful behavioural program aimed at reversing inappropriate beliefs responsible for the conditioned aversive reaction. Where there is an irrational fear that normal environmental sounds may be damaging, it is important to "retrain" the auditory system both at a conscious and subconscious level to respond in a more appropriate manner. This involves the examination and discussion of the reasons behind the development for the hypersensitivity and the fears held about the effects of such noises and the strong emotions they evoke."

As I have said previously, it needs a multi-disciplinary approach in order to interrupt the conditioned response cycle. I believe that hypnosis will be a tremendous adjunct to the unconscious work, while good counselling will deal with conscious reactions. Diet and supplements I am not really up to speed with as yet. If you go to the TRT website, they have a listing of trained practitioners, perhaps one near you. Or I would suggest contacting Marsha to find someone to assist. Most of all, do not give up! Patience and perseverance are paramount.................................

Hope this is helpful...............

With very best wishes for the upcoming holidays,

Sincerely,

Tara

Tara Economakis, Dip.AdvHyp,(N-SHAP),MCRAH,UKCPTelephone 01488-685151/ 686881info@...www.lastingchanges.co.uk

To: Soundsensitivity From: jenny_woolfson@...Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 12:41:49 +0000Subject: Re:

Hi Tara,Thank you for replying to me in such detail. I agree that professinals seem to not understand 4S and there certainly isn't a cure for it as yet, as there is for many more common ailments. I have looked into TRT and I'm hoping this might help. May I ask what sound generators are, what they actually do? I don't mind the feeling of things in my ears as I wear earplugs every night. I would be afraid of wearing sound generators as they appear to mask sound (I may be wrong here) and I would be afraid that when I took them out, sounds would be enhanced and even more scary than they are just now. I am currently at a bit of a loss because I dread the sound of traffic every morning and am sitting here constantly frightened by the noise outside, but there seems to be no help available.> > > >> > > > Escape on a holiday? :)> > > > > > > > Try and talk your self down . Do some breathing exercises and keep saying to your self you are calm. www.transparentcorp.com on that site is something that may help you too. Download the neuro programmer 3 and listen to the anxiety tracks or an alpha track or theta track. You can put scripts in there such as " I find the sound of revving cars soothing" or something similar> > > > > > > > You can try and play a game with the sounds too, so when you hear a revv try and guess the type, if u get it right reward your self.> > > > > > > > NLP may also be helpful, also look up "tapping" its a form of nlp cbt and acupuncture (sort of) rolled into one and is very effective in some cases .> > > > > > > > Good luck> > > > > > > > Rich> > > > Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone on 3> > > > > > > > Help please> > > > > > > > Hi guys,> > > > > > > > I live on a main road and today, roadworks started right outside my house which has caused me so much anxiety, especially since I've not been feeling very well. Obviously as it's nighttime, the roadworks have stopped but temporary traffic lights have been installed outside my house and the traffic noise is now causing me a lot of stress. Every minute or so, I heard the revving of engines, which makes my heart jump. Usually I just hear a steady stream of traffic outside, but now I'm hearing cars revving and the floor almost vibrates. I wondered if anyone had any tips to help me cope with this. I have avoided so far putting my earplugs in, but now I'm sitting with my headphones on because I feel so tired and frazzled as a result of the stress this has caused.> > > > > > > > Please help xxx> > > >> > >> >>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dear Tara,

Thank you so, so much for your help. I'm sitting here in tears because of the

noise outside. Or, more appropriately, my reaction to it. It was all I thought

about all day yesterday and I could barely sleep because of it. It took me a

while to adjust to living on a main road but now there are traffic lights right

outside my house and the cars revving makes me feel quite unsafe. I am going to

have a long bath and read Dr Jastreboff's TRT book. I actually purchased a set

of earplugs that emit white noise (at a very high price) in the hope that these

would allow me to sleep in the front room with my boyfriend where the traffic is

loudest. However, they don't block the sound at all, just put white noise over

it, so I have a feeling they are similar to the white noise generators you speak

of. I am going to have a look for someone who would be able to help me because

I'm losing hope that this is something I can do on my own.

Thank you again for all your help and I hope you also have a lovely holiday.

x

> > > > >

> > > > > Escape on a holiday? :)

> > > > >

> > > > > Try and talk your self down . Do some breathing exercises and keep

saying to your self you are calm. www.transparentcorp.com on that site is

something that may help you too. Download the neuro programmer 3 and listen to

the anxiety tracks or an alpha track or theta track. You can put scripts in

there such as " I find the sound of revving cars soothing " or something similar

> > > > >

> > > > > You can try and play a game with the sounds too, so when you hear a

revv try and guess the type, if u get it right reward your self.

> > > > >

> > > > > NLP may also be helpful, also look up " tapping " its a form of nlp cbt

and acupuncture (sort of) rolled into one and is very effective in some cases .

> > > > >

> > > > > Good luck

> > > > >

> > > > > Rich

> > > > > Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone on 3

> > > > >

> > > > > Help please

> > > > >

> > > > > Hi guys,

> > > > >

> > > > > I live on a main road and today, roadworks started right outside my

house which has caused me so much anxiety, especially since I've not been

feeling very well. Obviously as it's nighttime, the roadworks have stopped but

temporary traffic lights have been installed outside my house and the traffic

noise is now causing me a lot of stress. Every minute or so, I heard the revving

of engines, which makes my heart jump. Usually I just hear a steady stream of

traffic outside, but now I'm hearing cars revving and the floor almost vibrates.

I wondered if anyone had any tips to help me cope with this. I have avoided so

far putting my earplugs in, but now I'm sitting with my headphones on because I

feel so tired and frazzled as a result of the stress this has caused.

> > > > >

> > > > > Please help xxx

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I lived in a situation like that for 10 years. Eventually got used to it. Just ran a small fan in every room. It helped a lot. Put on music or TV. Just background noise. And take deeeeep breaths...

Mike L.

Subject: Re: To: Soundsensitivity Date: Sunday, December 19, 2010, 1:31 AM

Dear Tara,Thank you so, so much for your help. I'm sitting here in tears because of the noise outside. Or, more appropriately, my reaction to it. It was all I thought about all day yesterday and I could barely sleep because of it. It took me a while to adjust to living on a main road but now there are traffic lights right outside my house and the cars revving makes me feel quite unsafe. I am going to have a long bath and read Dr Jastreboff's TRT book. I actually purchased a set of earplugs that emit white noise (at a very high price) in the hope that these would allow me to sleep in the front room with my boyfriend where the traffic is loudest. However, they don't block the sound at all, just put white noise over it, so I have a feeling they are similar to the white noise generators you speak of. I am going to have a look for someone who would be able to help me because I'm losing hope that this is something I can do on my own. Thank

you again for all your help and I hope you also have a lovely holiday. x> > > > >> > > > > Escape on a holiday? :)> > > > > > > > > > Try and talk your

self down . Do some breathing exercises and keep saying to your self you are calm. www.transparentcorp.com on that site is something that may help you too. Download the neuro programmer 3 and listen to the anxiety tracks or an alpha track or theta track. You can put scripts in there such as " I find the sound of revving cars soothing" or something similar> > > > > > > > > > You can try and play a game with the sounds too, so when you hear a revv try and guess the type, if u get it right reward your self.> > > > > > > > > > NLP may also be helpful, also look up "tapping" its a form of nlp cbt and acupuncture (sort of) rolled into one and is very effective in some cases .> > > > > > > > > > Good luck> > > > > > > > > > Rich> > > > > Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone on 3> >

> > > > > > > > Help please> > > > > > > > > > Hi guys,> > > > > > > > > > I live on a main road and today, roadworks started right outside my house which has caused me so much anxiety, especially since I've not been feeling very well. Obviously as it's nighttime, the roadworks have stopped but temporary traffic lights have been installed outside my house and the traffic noise is now causing me a lot of stress. Every minute or so, I heard the revving of engines, which makes my heart jump. Usually I just hear a steady stream of traffic outside, but now I'm hearing cars revving and the floor almost vibrates. I wondered if anyone had any tips to help me cope with this. I have avoided so far putting my earplugs in, but now I'm sitting with my headphones on because I feel so tired and frazzled as a result of the stress this has caused.> > > > >

> > > > > Please help xxx> > > > >> > > >> > >> >>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Mike,

I live on a main road and I quickly got used to the traffic flowing past. If it

was noisy, it bugged me but at least it was going past quickly. Now there are

temporary traffic lights, I'm going mad. I don't know how long they will be

there for now that the snow's started, and the cars stop right outside my house,

revving and making the whole house vibrate. It's making me feel quite unsafe and

is definitely not peaceful. I have music on just now but I can still hear the

revs and the vibrations. I live on a bit of a hill too so it's particularly

loud. It's horrible :(

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Escape on a holiday? :)

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Try and talk your self down . Do some breathing exercises and keep

saying to your self you are calm. www.transparentcorp.com on that site is

something that may help you too. Download the neuro programmer 3 and listen to

the anxiety tracks or an alpha track or theta track. You can put scripts in

there such as " I find the sound of revving cars soothing " or something similar

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You can try and play a game with the sounds too, so when you hear a

revv try and guess the type, if u get it right reward your self.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > NLP may also be helpful, also look up " tapping " its a form of nlp

cbt and acupuncture (sort of) rolled into one and is very effective in some

cases .

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Good luck

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Rich

> > > > > > Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone on 3

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Help please

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Hi guys,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I live on a main road and today, roadworks started right outside my

house which has caused me so much anxiety, especially since I've not been

feeling very well. Obviously as it's nighttime, the roadworks have stopped but

temporary traffic lights have been installed outside my house and the traffic

noise is now causing me a lot of stress. Every minute or so, I heard the revving

of engines, which makes my heart jump. Usually I just hear a steady stream of

traffic outside, but now I'm hearing cars revving and the floor almost vibrates.

I wondered if anyone had any tips to help me cope with this. I have avoided so

far putting my earplugs in, but now I'm sitting with my headphones on because I

feel so tired and frazzled as a result of the stress this has caused.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Please help xxx

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi everyone,

Thank you for your advice. It's really good to know that other people have

experienced similar situations and have got used to them. It seems quite

impossible to get used to this just now. I went out today (it's been snowing

here so I haven't been out for a couple of days)as I was stuck in the house

getting more and more wrapped up in my thoughts, and I slipped on some ice in

the middle of the road and injured myself. I'm ok now but cried like a baby for

hours, I felt at the end of my tether, so hopeless because of the traffic noise

and the constant barking of the dogs next door, despite me phoning the RSPCA

twice. I just feel like I need some peace, a mental break. I have been listening

to music a lot but I sometimes get a bit anxious because I can't seem to put the

revving noise of cars into the background and still focus on it even when there

is music playing. Maybe that's something that will improve with time. I feel

like I need some phrases to tell myself when my mind goes into automatic

negative thought mode, though I don't know what these could be. Any ideas? xxx

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Escape on a holiday? :)

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Try and talk your self down . Do some breathing exercises and keep

saying to your self you are calm. www.transparentcorp.com on that site is

something that may help you too. Download the neuro programmer 3 and listen to

the anxiety tracks or an alpha track or theta track. You can put scripts in

there such as " I find the sound of revving cars soothing " or something similar

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You can try and play a game with the sounds too, so when you hear a

revv try and guess the type, if u get it right reward your self.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > NLP may also be helpful, also look up " tapping " its a form of nlp

cbt and acupuncture (sort of) rolled into one and is very effective in some

cases .

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Good luck

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Rich

> > > > > > Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone on 3

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Help please

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Hi guys,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I live on a main road and today, roadworks started right outside my

house which has caused me so much anxiety, especially since I've not been

feeling very well. Obviously as it's nighttime, the roadworks have stopped but

temporary traffic lights have been installed outside my house and the traffic

noise is now causing me a lot of stress. Every minute or so, I heard the revving

of engines, which makes my heart jump. Usually I just hear a steady stream of

traffic outside, but now I'm hearing cars revving and the floor almost vibrates.

I wondered if anyone had any tips to help me cope with this. I have avoided so

far putting my earplugs in, but now I'm sitting with my headphones on because I

feel so tired and frazzled as a result of the stress this has caused.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Please help xxx

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

THis is Marsha and over 14 years I have worked with many people with 4S.

Some do better with sound generators.

Some do better with Cognitive Therapy.

Some do better with both.

Some do better with other approaches including medication for obsessive

compulsive disorder, anxiety meds, other drugs.

Some do better with exercise, meditation, sensory disorders approaches, or other

esoteric approach.

To date, after 14 years, I have not yet worked with or hear of any one who

achieved what would be termed 'remission'. At not those who had 4S.

Misophonia, yes. If you classify misophonia in its simplest meaning, dislike of

sound, then I have had patients who have returned fairly happily to the world of

sound, even tolerating loud sounds and going about their business.

Same thing with hyperacusis, very likely to achieve normal hearing status with

the vast majority of patients using audiology approaches like TRT.

Not with 4S. I believe you all are riding a 'horse' of a different color.

I will also chime in that many have tried to soft music-medium music-loud music

cycling approach, for 4S, and I have not yet found ANYONE who discovered a

'cure' with that method.

On my staff I have an in house cognitive therapist. I no longer advise 4S

patients to visit me, I encourage them to contact local audiologists for trials

of sound generators and to find local cognitive behavioral therapist.

There is hope, and it is going to lie in evaluating brain chemistry issues...

Dr

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Escape on a holiday? :)

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Try and talk your self down . Do some breathing exercises and keep

saying to your self you are calm. www.transparentcorp.com on that site is

something that may help you too. Download the neuro programmer 3 and listen to

the anxiety tracks or an alpha track or theta track. You can put scripts in

there such as " I find the sound of revving cars soothing " or something similar

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You can try and play a game with the sounds too, so when you hear a

revv try and guess the type, if u get it right reward your self.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > NLP may also be helpful, also look up " tapping " its a form of nlp

cbt and acupuncture (sort of) rolled into one and is very effective in some

cases .

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Good luck

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Rich

> > > > > > Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone on 3

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Help please

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Hi guys,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I live on a main road and today, roadworks started right outside my

house which has caused me so much anxiety, especially since I've not been

feeling very well. Obviously as it's nighttime, the roadworks have stopped but

temporary traffic lights have been installed outside my house and the traffic

noise is now causing me a lot of stress. Every minute or so, I heard the revving

of engines, which makes my heart jump. Usually I just hear a steady stream of

traffic outside, but now I'm hearing cars revving and the floor almost vibrates.

I wondered if anyone had any tips to help me cope with this. I have avoided so

far putting my earplugs in, but now I'm sitting with my headphones on because I

feel so tired and frazzled as a result of the stress this has caused.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Please help xxx

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi, Marsha!

So glad to hear from you on all this! As a psycho-hypnotherapist, I am so interested in these conditions, and totally agree that all treatment needs to be individually applied and evaluated.

Just 3 quick questions, if you don't mind......................

Can you clarify how misophonia is different from 4S? In the UK where I am usually based, they are using the term to apply to dislike of/ irritation with specific sounds ranging from chewing, smacking, swallowing, breathing, coughing, tapping, clicking, walking, reving (an engine), knocking etc., etc, etc .How is 4S different, please?

Granted no "remission" has been noted in your experience, has there been acceptance,habituation or even amelioration?

I am aware that hypnosis as a singular modality is ineffective, but I am interested in combining it with counselling and CBT as part of cognitive and behavioural adjustments. Have you used hypnosis to deal with unconscious processes?

Many thanks for your time, and I look forward to hearing from you.

With regards,

Tara

Tara Economakis, Dip.AdvHyp,(N-SHAP),MCRAH,UKCPTelephone 01488-685151/ 686881info@...www.lastingchanges.co.uk

To: Soundsensitivity From: Oregon7@...Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 22:42:30 +0000Subject: Re:

THis is Marsha and over 14 years I have worked with many people with 4S.Some do better with sound generators.Some do better with Cognitive Therapy.Some do better with both.Some do better with other approaches including medication for obsessive compulsive disorder, anxiety meds, other drugs.Some do better with exercise, meditation, sensory disorders approaches, or other esoteric approach.To date, after 14 years, I have not yet worked with or hear of any one who achieved what would be termed 'remission'. At not those who had 4S.Misophonia, yes. If you classify misophonia in its simplest meaning, dislike of sound, then I have had patients who have returned fairly happily to the world of sound, even tolerating loud sounds and going about their business.Same thing with hyperacusis, very likely to achieve normal hearing status with the vast majority of patients using audiology approaches like TRT.Not with 4S. I believe you all are riding a 'horse' of a different color.I will also chime in that many have tried to soft music-medium music-loud music cycling approach, for 4S, and I have not yet found ANYONE who discovered a 'cure' with that method. On my staff I have an in house cognitive therapist. I no longer advise 4S patients to visit me, I encourage them to contact local audiologists for trials of sound generators and to find local cognitive behavioral therapist.There is hope, and it is going to lie in evaluating brain chemistry issues...Dr > > > > > >> > > > > > Escape on a holiday? :)> > > > > > > > > > > > Try and talk your self down . Do some breathing exercises and keep saying to your self you are calm. www.transparentcorp.com on that site is something that may help you too. Download the neuro programmer 3 and listen to the anxiety tracks or an alpha track or theta track. You can put scripts in there such as " I find the sound of revving cars soothing" or something similar> > > > > > > > > > > > You can try and play a game with the sounds too, so when you hear a revv try and guess the type, if u get it right reward your self.> > > > > > > > > > > > NLP may also be helpful, also look up "tapping" its a form of nlp cbt and acupuncture (sort of) rolled into one and is very effective in some cases .> > > > > > > > > > > > Good luck> > > > > > > > > > > > Rich> > > > > > Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone on 3> > > > > > > > > > > > Help please> > > > > > > > > > > > Hi guys,> > > > > > > > > > > > I live on a main road and today, roadworks started right outside my house which has caused me so much anxiety, especially since I've not been feeling very well. Obviously as it's nighttime, the roadworks have stopped but temporary traffic lights have been installed outside my house and the traffic noise is now causing me a lot of stress. Every minute or so, I heard the revving of engines, which makes my heart jump. Usually I just hear a steady stream of traffic outside, but now I'm hearing cars revving and the floor almost vibrates. I wondered if anyone had any tips to help me cope with this. I have avoided so far putting my earplugs in, but now I'm sitting with my headphones on because I feel so tired and frazzled as a result of the stress this has caused.> > > > > > > > > > > > Please help xxx> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > >> >>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Marsha and Tara,

I too am interested in the questions Tara poses, particularly as to the

difference between 4S and misophonia. I don't notice people breathing, eating,

chewing etc generally (although pen clicking really aggravates me). These noises

that people can't help and which I do myself don't make me anxious (though my

stepdad's heavy breathing irked me because he was a smoker and wheezed).

However, I am very sensitive to noises like cars or unexpected noises or bangs,

noise which I can't see...I'm not sure if this comes under the same category as

4S?

Best wishes,

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Escape on a holiday? :)

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Try and talk your self down . Do some breathing exercises and keep

saying to your self you are calm. www.transparentcorp.com on that site is

something that may help you too. Download the neuro programmer 3 and listen to

the anxiety tracks or an alpha track or theta track. You can put scripts in

there such as " I find the sound of revving cars soothing " or something similar

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > You can try and play a game with the sounds too, so when you hear

a revv try and guess the type, if u get it right reward your self.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > NLP may also be helpful, also look up " tapping " its a form of nlp

cbt and acupuncture (sort of) rolled into one and is very effective in some

cases .

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Good luck

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Rich

> > > > > > > Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone on 3

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Help please

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Hi guys,

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I live on a main road and today, roadworks started right outside

my house which has caused me so much anxiety, especially since I've not been

feeling very well. Obviously as it's nighttime, the roadworks have stopped but

temporary traffic lights have been installed outside my house and the traffic

noise is now causing me a lot of stress. Every minute or so, I heard the revving

of engines, which makes my heart jump. Usually I just hear a steady stream of

traffic outside, but now I'm hearing cars revving and the floor almost vibrates.

I wondered if anyone had any tips to help me cope with this. I have avoided so

far putting my earplugs in, but now I'm sitting with my headphones on because I

feel so tired and frazzled as a result of the stress this has caused.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Please help xxx

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

>

> Hi Marsha and Tara,

>

> I too am interested in the questions Tara poses, particularly as to the

difference between 4S and misophonia. I don't notice people breathing, eating,

chewing etc generally (although pen clicking really aggravates me). These noises

that people can't help and which I do myself don't make me anxious (though my

stepdad's heavy breathing irked me because he was a smoker and wheezed).

However, I am very sensitive to noises like cars or unexpected noises or bangs,

noise which I can't see...I'm not sure if this comes under the same category as

4S?

**************** I think that probably 4S is a subset of misophonia. One

significant difference is the characteristic time of onset of 4S prepuberty and

the ensuing very typical development of symptoms, generally speaking a parent is

often the first trigger or sibling and then a slow spread occurs, also includes

visual and tactile triggers.

Another is the fact that most 4S people LOVE loud noise and loud sounds, they

enjoy sound very much, i.e., music, they have very specific non-random triggers

to softer-sounds.

Finally the biggest issue is that 4S does not appear to respond to typical

misophonia treatment protocols. I did a Monkey Survey with 100 respondents here

you can find the data on this site, and there wasn't a single case of 'cure' or

'improvement' using the 3 week cycle suggestion.

As to hypnosis, drugs, acupuncture, diet changes, every single thing you can

think of has been done to these individuals, even as children, all sorts of

counseling and neuro psychology and things you cannot imagine! and at least as

far as I am aware, there has not been effective results, maybe slight jogs of

better or worse..I think finding this group is a great relief to those with 4S

who wonder if 'they' are just 'crazy' or 'weird'. There is a huge element of

shame in this problem that affects each one here....adults, kids, parents,

family...

Dr. J

>

> Best wishes,

>

>

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

... Remember, put things into perspective. Tell yourself that cars make

noise, it's a fact that you cannot change. You can however change your thoughts

towards the noise. Remind yourself that they are not making this noise to make

you anxious, it's just a part of life that cars make noise. Remind yourself

that the traffic light situation is temporary. Tell yourself that although you

are feeling anxious, the sound will not hurt you and it will end. Tell yourself

that is is OK to feel the way you are feeling.

Often times I think fighting that feeling of being anxious only makes you more

anxious. I've been down this road you are on... you focus on things more and

more and feel completely overwhelmed. I spent many times crying like a baby over

stupid things like stubbing my toe. You just get SO tired in the mind from

fighting this thing that you just can't take it and everything effects you. But

it can get better. Patience, persistence and positive thinking are KEY.

It won't happen overnight. I started my journey of CBT and positive thinking

over a year ago and am now in a place where I am much happier. I still have 4S.

I accept that. Sure, I'd LOVE a cure, but until then I will carry on with life

the best I can. I no longer fight having this condition. Fighting it is a lost

cause.

Place little sayings around your house that are positive... perhaps your

boyfriend can help you with this. The more you fill your mind with positive

things the better. For every negative thought you have, replace it with a

positive. This may sound weird, but one thing I often said to myself was even

though I hated hearing that sound at the time, I was grateful to be able to hear

it. Many people with 4S wish they were deaf... not me. I love certain sounds

too much to sacrifice not hearing them. Thunderstorms, a babbling brook,

music, someone saying 'I love you'. I'd truly miss hearing those things.

When you first realize you have this problem and you are not the only one, you

often find yourself consumed by it and you read everything said about it. I did

this too. It wasn't until I started CBT when I took time away, and really

focused on myself that I started to feel better. I stopped consuming my mind

with everyone elses stories. Sometimes I think that can do more harm than good.

It's nice to know you are not alone, but it can also make your mind wander

further into the negative.

Another thing that could possibly help is seeing a doctor and starting an

anti-anxiety med. I also did this when I first started CBT. It really helped

take the anxiousness down to the level that I could think more clearly and focus

more on working on my mind.

Don't give up... it's a hard road to travel down but you can do it.

Darlene

>

I just feel like I need some peace, a mental break. I have been listening to

music a lot but I sometimes get a bit anxious because I can't seem to put the

revving noise of cars into the background and still focus on it even when there

is music playing. Maybe that's something that will improve with time. I feel

like I need some phrases to tell myself when my mind goes into automatic

negative thought mode, though I don't know what these could be. Any ideas? xxx

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Darlene,

There is so much truth in what you said. You're right: cars make noise and it

not an indication that anyone is out to get me. Yesterday got a bit too much for

me. The neighbour's dogs were barking and whining constantly and the traffic

outside was filling my head with noise and tension. I think I had a mini

breakdown. I definitely think the car noise is something that I can habituate

to, I seem to be doing so already which is really good. However, the barking

dogs is something that is more intrusive and disruptive. I have phoned the RSPCA

twice and have also contacted the local council. I don't know what else I can

do. Yesterday they were outside howling for ages. I was trying to say to myself

there's nothing I can do about it, but I kept thinking my neighbour must be a

horrible, inconsiderate person which didn't contribute to feeling safe in my

house.

I agree that accepting the anxiety is half the battle. I don't like feeling

anxious but trying to fight it never works. I was so anxious yesterday that when

I went out and fell on the road, I just wanted to give up there and then. I sat

on a bench crying my eyes out, which is very unlike me, but I was so anxious and

overwhelmed, I didn't care anymore.

I used to wish I was deaf. My mum is hard of hearing and she seems to have it a

lot easier somehow! I agree there are a lot of wonderful sounds in the world

that I wouldn't want to miss, my boyfriend's voice for one. I have read that if

you have 4S you should avoid silence, because silence accentuates the noises and

makes them worse. I personally love silence and I find that when I try to avoid

it, this makes me anxious too.

I agree that reading other people's stories can sometimes be a hindrance. I have

read a lot of stories about people who have problems with hearing chewing,

breathing etc. and i start to wonder if I too have this. I don't want to create

any more problems for myself as these noises don't bother me, but it's difficult

not to read the stories of people who can empathise.

I have been on anti-anxiety medication in the past and found it to be of help

sometimes but it's not a road I'd like to go down again. I really think I can

tackle this. I think I need to implement some CBT phrases when the dogs start

barking as opposed to instantly going into a panic.

Thank you for helping xxx

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 months later...

I'm so sorry to read that, . Bless your heart. I certainly won't try the hearing damage thing anymore!

Sounds like medication would be a good idea for right now. I take Pristiq, which is really good stuff, but it's almost impossible to stop taking. If I miss a dose, I feel dizzy and very much like all my nerves are unraveling. Best wishes to you to feel better soon.

To: "Soundsensitivity " <Soundsensitivity >Sent: Sun, February 27, 2011 10:10:23 AMSubject: Re: I did try to damage my hearing because I had tried EVERYTHING from CBT to meds to significant life changes. Now as a result I have severe ringing in my ears (tinnitus) for nearly a year and it feels awful. My head feels off kilter. It is so hard to explain. My left side of my face feels full and extra loud while the right side feels empty and all the sounds are loud. And the 4s didn't disappear.I read that people who are deaf often have ringing and hear wonky sounds. I wish I had known this before. Also, I think that for me it

would just move to visual cues instead of noises.I am really really struggling because texting and typing drive me crazy mad and computers and cell phones are everywhere now. I told my husband I needed to try some medication again because I am at the end of my rope.Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless handheld------------------------------------PLEASE BE AWARE THIS IS A STRICTLY CONFIDENTIAL GROUP AND NO MESSAGES ARE TO BE USED FOR ANY PURPOSE OUTSIDE OF THE YAHOO GROUP MEMBERSHIP SITE OR REPRODUCED OR COPIED AND MAILED FOR ANY PURPOSE. ALSO DO NOT SHARE MEMBER EMAIL ADDRESSES OR NAMES WITH ANYONE.Thank you. MJ

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...