Guest guest Posted September 25, 2002 Report Share Posted September 25, 2002 Hi , You did not sound like a jerk!! I really had a awful time with my first surgery. I told my boss today that I may not be able to keep up the 7 hrs. My back hurt so bad last night. I am sorry about your job. I really understand that too. I stayed home for 10 yrs with the kids, But because of health issues I could not have had a job. When my daughter went to first grade I was so lonesome. The next year I work at the preschool at my church with baby thru 2's. I got everything the kids brought in, I thought my back would brake. I also found out after changing 15 diapers a day that I was allergic to latex. I guess what I am trying to say is that It is really hard. I have had a total of 7 surgeries in 15 yrs. the last 3 in the past year and half. So I don't really know what is normal and I never have a pain free day. That is why I am glad that I have this group to remind me that I need to take it easy on my body. It is the only one I have. I really do understand your frustration. I want to be better right now. I really may be pushing the envelope to soon with going back to work. Well I got to go . take care, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 26, 2002 Report Share Posted September 26, 2002 It is scary. It isn't really a given that you will have some but it can happen anywhere. I think it is weird though because it can hurt but at the same time you touch it and can't feel the touch. -- Re: Sender: To: tetheredspinalcord <tetheredspinalcord > Reply-To: tetheredspinalcord Message-ID: <001b01c264aa$b5c85c20$5da75f18@hvbqv> Hi Pat, Thanks for setting me straight! :-) I am very glad you can now do what you do and am sorry you had to go through all you have to get back to work. I am also sorry if I came off like a jerk. Unfortunately at this point I probably am, but it really hurt especially yesterday. You see I had to tell my employer I didn't know a date when I " would be better and able to return to work, " so I lost my job. You pushed buttons. . Also, thanks for the information on wearing pants, I thought it was just me. I still unbutton the pants most of the time around the house. It is just very sensitive. Again, sorry I hope I didn't push your buttons too bad. .. Re: Hi , First off I want to say you are not doing anything wrong. This is my second surgery. My first was awful!!!! First off the doc did not detether me. For the first 2 weeks I hurt so bad that I could not get up and down by myself. I could not lift my own legs into bed my husband or kids would do it for me. I could not sit down for long it was excruciating. I could not wear jeans for 6 month because the pressure on my incision was awful. I don't know why this time it has been so different. I could get up and down by myself this time right away. ( with the help of a walker) I felt better in some ways like my ankles were not hurting. I can lean my neck forward and is less pain full. I also know the docs incision was much smaller and he used internal stitches and the other doc used staples. Dr. removed 2 1/2 inches of scar tissue from my nerves and spinal cord. I have been wearing pants after the first 3 weeks. I have a desk job but I started work last week and this past weekend my back hurt really bad and was having spasms. I am working from 9 to 3 . Luckily I work for a company that said I could leave if I start hurting too bad. Today by 200 I was ready to come home. It still hurts to push a heavy shopping cart and I am not supposed to lift anything heavy or bend from the waist. I hope this helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 20, 2003 Report Share Posted January 20, 2003 Good luck on your surgery . Keep us posted. Lynn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2003 Report Share Posted February 4, 2003 kathy, heather is 3 years old, she will be 4 on april, 14. her symptoms are minor now, but, our nsg said that there is a very good chance that she will be packing diapers in her backpack in middle school. i will start at the beginning. she toe walked the first 2-3 months of her walking life. at 2 years and 5 months, she could feel the need to have a bowel movement every time, but only urine a couple of times. at 2 years and 9 months, she was totally continent during the day, totally dependent on diapers at night. she still wears diapers at night, w/out a chance of getting out of them yet. they are soaked through every morning. she has had 2-3 uti's, since she was potty trained 1 year ago. she has to " run like the wind " to get to the potty on time during the day. she was having frequent accidents, they have slowed down the past 3 weeks. (of course, to add to our confusion.) she has complained of foot pain 3-4 times until the last 3 weeks. in the last 3 weeks, she has complained of feet pain 4 times. once during ballet, once after school, once in the morning when she first woke up, and yesterday, while she was sitting on the couch and had been all day. (because she had a stomach virus.) at the nsg office, she had hyper reflexes on the right side and also landed on the ball of her foot when she ran on that side. other than those mild symptoms, nothing. no scoliosis, yet.. no feet deformities or leg length discrepancies. she does seem to have slowed down in running. i thought that her toilet problems were from regression from the birth of her 4 month old brother. i am sorry that i am writing a novel. i don't think that her symptoms are severe now, but, i am worried what they might progress to. on the other hand, are they age related and might get better? the nsg does not think so. i also spoke w/ the early retired past chief of surgery at kosair's children hospital yesterday. he knows my father in law. he only sang moriarty's praises and agreed that she needs untethered. to protect the innocent, i won't mention names, but he agreed w/ my opinion of the other nsg that we saw. dr. thomas moriarty is our nsg, he is supposed to be excellent for this. kosair's children hospital in louisville, kentucky bought special equipment just to entice him to come to practice here. he does mri assisted surgery. maybe everyone does, but i think that there are only 5 in the usa. he comes highly recommended from other patients and trained under a nsg in boston, who is supposedly first in his field. my brother, mark, is good friends w/ a doc that is good friends w/ dr. moriarty. blah, blah, blah,. this is enough info, i am sure. thanks for your time and compassion. we are still scared and a little confused. i am trying to trust the nsg, but as a nurse, i know that this is not to be true. however, all of the nurses at kosair's sing moriarty's praises. that says a lot there. they say his bedside manner is bad, i say that is good. i asked if he is known to throw a chart or two, they laughed and said and how did you know? i said that i didn't, but i hoped that he was the type. that type is a perfectionist. and that is what i want for my daughter. i used to work in the open heart unit and recovery room w/ cardiac surgeons. anyway, you seem so knowledgable on the subject, smart and compassionate. thanks so much for your help. look forward to your reply. thanks again, susan fenley. > Hi > > I'd be cautious of any doctor that avoids answering your questions, > indirectly or directly. However, in saying that, my own nsg (neurosurgeon) > avoided some of mine the first time around and I stuck with him and he's > truly been a life-saver for me in many ways. > > I have lipomeningocele (spinal cord is tethered to a benign tumor (lipoma); > however, the surgeries I've since have been from scar tissue tethering my > cord.) > > I was born with this (obviously), but wasn't diagnosed until I was 36 years > old (or maybe 35?) Anyway, I'm 41 now. Before my first surgery I really > didn't have any pain at all. I had been avoiding and ignoring my left calf > disappearing on me (muscle wasting) and it wasn't until about five years > later when I started having bladder problems that I saw a doctor, who sent > me to a uro, who noticed I lacked reflexes on one side, had a positive > babinski, and had hyper reflexes on one side. I had other smaller problems > also...loss of sensation in my legs that I wasn't even aware of, etc. > > They decided I needed the first surgery because of the muscle wasting and > bladder problems. However, I had had bladder problems constantly as a child > (kidney infections, peeing when laughing, constant bladder infections), but > that all stopped once I finished puberty. It wasn't until after the birth > of my fourth child that I started to have symptoms that I ignored (the leg, > etc.) > > After the first surgery I woke in pain and most of it never went away. Then > within a year spasticity started and not only was it very painful, it was > and still is, deforming my feet. I have other problems also. With each > surgery I would gain some things, lose some things, but always what I gained > I would lose within a year or so. It wasn't until after this last surgery > that it finally dawned on me that the advice a very smart nsg gave me years > ago was true for me. > > I saw Dr. Chapman (), at MGH (he was/is head of ped. neurosurgery) after > my first surgery when things declined. He explained to me that this has > happened to some of his adult patients also. He went on to say that because > I was symptomatic as a child with no intervention, that the nerves in my > spine were being damaged for thirty-five some years and when I was > untethered as an adult, some of my nerves tried to heal and couldn't, some > went hay-wire, and some did some other great tricks. In other words, I was > doomed, but did need the first surgery to halt the progression of the muscle > wasting (which it did do.) He recommended no more surgeries. I didn't > listen because I desperately wanted to get better. I think my nsg felt > badly for me and after me begging him each time, he agreed to operate each > time. > > I was also born with a " stork bite " , an open hole just at the base of my > spine. A very tiny hole and it closed shortly after birth. My parents were > told that as long as I developed fine, that it was nothing to worry about. > > I have spina bifida occulta, but so does my youngest daughter and she has no > other neural tube defects and should never have problems from it. We've had > all of our children's backs MRI'd and all came back fine. I also have a > Chiari malformation, which can go along with tethered cord, and we had two > of our children checked for this, only because they've had headaches since > they were young. Those both came back negative also. > > You don't need to have SBO to have any type of tethered cord. There are > some people on the list that have a tether and no SBO. > > As I said, the head of ped. nsgy told me if I had had surgery as a child, I > would have faired much better as an adult. However, I think that's easier > said than to prove since it's really only been since the advent of the MRI > (about what? Ten years now) that adults have getting diagnosed as quickly > as they should. > > You have to go with your own gut feeling as far as surgery for your son. > What symptoms does he have? > > Kathy > occasional paralysis > > > > > > Hi > > > > For the past seven-nine months (actually since my last surgery in Feb. > > 2002), I wake up with horrendous pain in my leg (almost always my left - > > actually, probably always my left which is the worst of the two anyway.) > > Sorry ... I wake with this horrible pain, but can't move my leg. For > the > > longest time it was only happening when I woke up on my back. My > doctors > > theoriorized that I was disturbing a nerve in my back which was making > this > > occur. > > > > Last night I was awoken at 3:30 am with the pain (worst it's ever been) > and > > completely unable to move my left leg; however, I was laying on my right > > side, so my left leg was on top of my right - so it wasn't like my body > > weight was making it numb and unable to move. It's starting to get > scary. > > > > It only took about ten minutes for me to finally get my leg to move > enough > > so I could twist my torso and sit up - but by then the pain was > horrible. I > > groaned and woke my husband. I had to get out of the bed and stand, but > > when I tried, my leg had no strength in it (L) and I felt backwards onto > the > > bed. After a few minutes, my husband got my crutch (arm) and between > that > > and him helping the other side of me, I was able to get to the couch and > > take pills. It took over six hours for this pain to go away enough so I > > could move. > > > > Now, my leg is back to normal. But - just one more thing. The other > night > > we were sitting in bleachers at my son's game. I tried to climb up > them, > > and there was no way I could do it with my left leg. Last winter I had > no > > problem, well, at least not like this. I fell face forward trying to > climb > > onto the bleachers. > > > > Anyway - I'm wondering, does anyone else experiencing these fleeting > moments > > of paralysis during the night? If so, do you know what causes them? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Kathy > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 16, 2003 Report Share Posted April 16, 2003 Not sure about the for good thing untill I speak with the doc next week and see what he has to say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 2003 Report Share Posted May 5, 2003 Thanks a bunch! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2003 Report Share Posted June 14, 2003 Yes my school is pretty big lol getting around should be interesting. But hopefully since I only have 4 classes this year I will only have one or none at all upstairs. But I know that I will have a class in the building that is on the far end up the school, and it happens to require " building " sets for school plays, so that should be interesting I guess lol. I am going to try and get in as early as possible for the surgery though so I wont have to deal with that at all, I would rather be on crutches during summer when I dont have to do as much rather then at school. I hope that your foot quits bothering you too. It definately is not a fun experience. M. > > Sorry you have to have surgery on your foot. I am glad that it may > help relieve your pain, though. I just posted about my own foot issues so I can > imagine how oyu feel. I hope that your surgery goes well. That does sound like > a not so fun way to start school. Hopefully you can get around ok. Are there > lots of stairs and a big school?Hopefully they can make accomodations to make > it as easy as possible. Take care > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 2004 Report Share Posted July 29, 2004 My MIL died on Monday of complications of a stroke suffered two weeks ago -Sorry to hear she didn't make it. I know you guys are exhausted and sad. When there isn't much hope, the waiting and wondering can be totally debilitating. You're all in my prayers. Coral Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 2004 Report Share Posted July 29, 2004 My MIL died on Monday of complications of a stroke suffered two weeks ago -Sorry to hear she didn't make it. I know you guys are exhausted and sad. When there isn't much hope, the waiting and wondering can be totally debilitating. You're all in my prayers. Coral Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 2004 Report Share Posted July 29, 2004 My MIL died on Monday of complications of a stroke suffered two weeks ago -Sorry to hear she didn't make it. I know you guys are exhausted and sad. When there isn't much hope, the waiting and wondering can be totally debilitating. You're all in my prayers. Coral Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 2004 Report Share Posted July 29, 2004 Me, too, ... hang in there - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2010 Report Share Posted December 17, 2010 Hi, , I think one of the main problems in the professional world is that so few people really understand 4S in all it's aspects. I cannot claim, yet, to have the answers - most of all because I think it is not a simple "let's do this" solution, but rather a multi-discipine approach that is required. My first wish is to get the information out there to doctors, consultants, specialists, and as much of the population as possible. The 4Sgroup can help in this endeavor by talking to others about it, explaining it to their doctors, audiologists even friends in order to bring it out into the open. If Dr. Phil had taken some time to do some research he might have helped the cause a lot by explaining 4S ON AIR, rather than telling the woman on his show to de-stress. What a shame to miss such an opportunity. Oprah has helped so many causes that previously have been hidden away, just by gathering information and then having the courage to discuss it. If each person on this group could inform 5 people, and ask them to inform even one other, the information would spread like wildfire. More people would take up the cause, research might be initiated, and good science prevail. Not to mention good solutions. But it is up to everyone; I can only do what I can. As far as sound generators, open ear, wearable models are recommended. 4S is often accompanied by sensitivity to other stimuli, however, and some people may not like the feel of them. Experimenting with other models is useful in this case. The brain is "plastic" and can become desensitised to certain sounds. Using pink sound to refocus the auditory cortex's attention from obnoxious sound often decreases the impact. Over time, and with the lessening the use, certain loud sounds may become intolerable. Like with Tinnitus Retraining Therapy, I believe good counselling is imperative, and hypnotherapy can be invaluable. But the practitioners need to know what they are dealing with, not just pull some intervention out of the hat and hope it will fit. I believe that is why some people have written in and said it does not work. There is an audio download on the market, based on the NLP fast phobia cure that I have listened to (by the way, I do not have 4S); it is a commercial rendition, directed to anyone in general, not to EACH person. 4S is highly personal and not simplistic, and I doubt this kind of approach would be of any use. Diet has also been mentioned, plus Omega 3's. There might be vitamin and mineral deficiencies also, and different intolerances. All this needs to be looked into. All in all, lots of work to do, patience required, and courage to get out there and do it. Please keep me posted on how you are getting on. I would like at some point to run all this, and whatever else I have found, by Marsha in Oregon, as I am presently on the west coast (but basically live in Europe) With regards, and best wishes for the holiday season, Tara Tara Economakis, Dip.AdvHyp,(N-SHAP),MCRAH,UKCPTelephone 01488-685151/ 686881info@...www.lastingchanges.co.uk To: Soundsensitivity From: jenny_woolfson@...Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 16:51:01 +0000Subject: Re: Help please Hi again Tara,In terms of wearable sound generators, won't this just mask the intrusive noises and make it more difficult to deal with them? I used to wear earphones with pink noise playing in them when I was in the university library, to avoid hearing other people talk and type. However, when I took the earplugs out, I felt a bit dizzy and disorientated for a while afterwards.> > >> > > Escape on a holiday? > > > > > > Try and talk your self down . Do some breathing exercises and keep saying to your self you are calm. www.transparentcorp.com on that site is something that may help you too. Download the neuro programmer 3 and listen to the anxiety tracks or an alpha track or theta track. You can put scripts in there such as " I find the sound of revving cars soothing" or something similar> > > > > > You can try and play a game with the sounds too, so when you hear a revv try and guess the type, if u get it right reward your self.> > > > > > NLP may also be helpful, also look up "tapping" its a form of nlp cbt and acupuncture (sort of) rolled into one and is very effective in some cases .> > > > > > Good luck> > > > > > Rich> > > Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone on 3> > > > > > Help please> > > > > > Hi guys,> > > > > > I live on a main road and today, roadworks started right outside my house which has caused me so much anxiety, especially since I've not been feeling very well. Obviously as it's nighttime, the roadworks have stopped but temporary traffic lights have been installed outside my house and the traffic noise is now causing me a lot of stress. Every minute or so, I heard the revving of engines, which makes my heart jump. Usually I just hear a steady stream of traffic outside, but now I'm hearing cars revving and the floor almost vibrates. I wondered if anyone had any tips to help me cope with this. I have avoided so far putting my earplugs in, but now I'm sitting with my headphones on because I feel so tired and frazzled as a result of the stress this has caused.> > > > > > Please help xxx> > >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2010 Report Share Posted December 18, 2010 Hi Tara, Thank you for replying to me in such detail. I agree that professinals seem to not understand 4S and there certainly isn't a cure for it as yet, as there is for many more common ailments. I have looked into TRT and I'm hoping this might help. May I ask what sound generators are, what they actually do? I don't mind the feeling of things in my ears as I wear earplugs every night. I would be afraid of wearing sound generators as they appear to mask sound (I may be wrong here) and I would be afraid that when I took them out, sounds would be enhanced and even more scary than they are just now. I am currently at a bit of a loss because I dread the sound of traffic every morning and am sitting here constantly frightened by the noise outside, but there seems to be no help available. > > > > > > > > Escape on a holiday? > > > > > > > > Try and talk your self down . Do some breathing exercises and keep saying to your self you are calm. www.transparentcorp.com on that site is something that may help you too. Download the neuro programmer 3 and listen to the anxiety tracks or an alpha track or theta track. You can put scripts in there such as " I find the sound of revving cars soothing " or something similar > > > > > > > > You can try and play a game with the sounds too, so when you hear a revv try and guess the type, if u get it right reward your self. > > > > > > > > NLP may also be helpful, also look up " tapping " its a form of nlp cbt and acupuncture (sort of) rolled into one and is very effective in some cases . > > > > > > > > Good luck > > > > > > > > Rich > > > > Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone on 3 > > > > > > > > Help please > > > > > > > > Hi guys, > > > > > > > > I live on a main road and today, roadworks started right outside my house which has caused me so much anxiety, especially since I've not been feeling very well. Obviously as it's nighttime, the roadworks have stopped but temporary traffic lights have been installed outside my house and the traffic noise is now causing me a lot of stress. Every minute or so, I heard the revving of engines, which makes my heart jump. Usually I just hear a steady stream of traffic outside, but now I'm hearing cars revving and the floor almost vibrates. I wondered if anyone had any tips to help me cope with this. I have avoided so far putting my earplugs in, but now I'm sitting with my headphones on because I feel so tired and frazzled as a result of the stress this has caused. > > > > > > > > Please help xxx > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2010 Report Share Posted December 18, 2010 Hi, , A wearable sound generator fits behind the ear and is like a digital hearing aid. It emits a very soft white/pink noise (I believe you can adjust it). They should be applied under the supervision of an sudiologist with experience in this process of desensitisation. The effect results in a reduced perception of previously distressing sounds. WSG's do not mask, rather aid in habituation. Over several months, due to changes in the auditory neuronal networks, there is a permanent change in auditory discomfort. However,according to J. Hazell in the UK, "no permanent change can be achieved in misophonia cases without a successful behavioural program aimed at reversing inappropriate beliefs responsible for the conditioned aversive reaction. Where there is an irrational fear that normal environmental sounds may be damaging, it is important to "retrain" the auditory system both at a conscious and subconscious level to respond in a more appropriate manner. This involves the examination and discussion of the reasons behind the development for the hypersensitivity and the fears held about the effects of such noises and the strong emotions they evoke." As I have said previously, it needs a multi-disciplinary approach in order to interrupt the conditioned response cycle. I believe that hypnosis will be a tremendous adjunct to the unconscious work, while good counselling will deal with conscious reactions. Diet and supplements I am not really up to speed with as yet. If you go to the TRT website, they have a listing of trained practitioners, perhaps one near you. Or I would suggest contacting Marsha to find someone to assist. Most of all, do not give up! Patience and perseverance are paramount................................. Hope this is helpful............... With very best wishes for the upcoming holidays, Sincerely, Tara Tara Economakis, Dip.AdvHyp,(N-SHAP),MCRAH,UKCPTelephone 01488-685151/ 686881info@...www.lastingchanges.co.uk To: Soundsensitivity From: jenny_woolfson@...Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 12:41:49 +0000Subject: Re: Hi Tara,Thank you for replying to me in such detail. I agree that professinals seem to not understand 4S and there certainly isn't a cure for it as yet, as there is for many more common ailments. I have looked into TRT and I'm hoping this might help. May I ask what sound generators are, what they actually do? I don't mind the feeling of things in my ears as I wear earplugs every night. I would be afraid of wearing sound generators as they appear to mask sound (I may be wrong here) and I would be afraid that when I took them out, sounds would be enhanced and even more scary than they are just now. I am currently at a bit of a loss because I dread the sound of traffic every morning and am sitting here constantly frightened by the noise outside, but there seems to be no help available.> > > >> > > > Escape on a holiday? > > > > > > > > Try and talk your self down . Do some breathing exercises and keep saying to your self you are calm. www.transparentcorp.com on that site is something that may help you too. Download the neuro programmer 3 and listen to the anxiety tracks or an alpha track or theta track. You can put scripts in there such as " I find the sound of revving cars soothing" or something similar> > > > > > > > You can try and play a game with the sounds too, so when you hear a revv try and guess the type, if u get it right reward your self.> > > > > > > > NLP may also be helpful, also look up "tapping" its a form of nlp cbt and acupuncture (sort of) rolled into one and is very effective in some cases .> > > > > > > > Good luck> > > > > > > > Rich> > > > Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone on 3> > > > > > > > Help please> > > > > > > > Hi guys,> > > > > > > > I live on a main road and today, roadworks started right outside my house which has caused me so much anxiety, especially since I've not been feeling very well. Obviously as it's nighttime, the roadworks have stopped but temporary traffic lights have been installed outside my house and the traffic noise is now causing me a lot of stress. Every minute or so, I heard the revving of engines, which makes my heart jump. Usually I just hear a steady stream of traffic outside, but now I'm hearing cars revving and the floor almost vibrates. I wondered if anyone had any tips to help me cope with this. I have avoided so far putting my earplugs in, but now I'm sitting with my headphones on because I feel so tired and frazzled as a result of the stress this has caused.> > > > > > > > Please help xxx> > > >> > >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2010 Report Share Posted December 19, 2010 Dear Tara, Thank you so, so much for your help. I'm sitting here in tears because of the noise outside. Or, more appropriately, my reaction to it. It was all I thought about all day yesterday and I could barely sleep because of it. It took me a while to adjust to living on a main road but now there are traffic lights right outside my house and the cars revving makes me feel quite unsafe. I am going to have a long bath and read Dr Jastreboff's TRT book. I actually purchased a set of earplugs that emit white noise (at a very high price) in the hope that these would allow me to sleep in the front room with my boyfriend where the traffic is loudest. However, they don't block the sound at all, just put white noise over it, so I have a feeling they are similar to the white noise generators you speak of. I am going to have a look for someone who would be able to help me because I'm losing hope that this is something I can do on my own. Thank you again for all your help and I hope you also have a lovely holiday. x > > > > > > > > > > Escape on a holiday? > > > > > > > > > > Try and talk your self down . Do some breathing exercises and keep saying to your self you are calm. www.transparentcorp.com on that site is something that may help you too. Download the neuro programmer 3 and listen to the anxiety tracks or an alpha track or theta track. You can put scripts in there such as " I find the sound of revving cars soothing " or something similar > > > > > > > > > > You can try and play a game with the sounds too, so when you hear a revv try and guess the type, if u get it right reward your self. > > > > > > > > > > NLP may also be helpful, also look up " tapping " its a form of nlp cbt and acupuncture (sort of) rolled into one and is very effective in some cases . > > > > > > > > > > Good luck > > > > > > > > > > Rich > > > > > Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone on 3 > > > > > > > > > > Help please > > > > > > > > > > Hi guys, > > > > > > > > > > I live on a main road and today, roadworks started right outside my house which has caused me so much anxiety, especially since I've not been feeling very well. Obviously as it's nighttime, the roadworks have stopped but temporary traffic lights have been installed outside my house and the traffic noise is now causing me a lot of stress. Every minute or so, I heard the revving of engines, which makes my heart jump. Usually I just hear a steady stream of traffic outside, but now I'm hearing cars revving and the floor almost vibrates. I wondered if anyone had any tips to help me cope with this. I have avoided so far putting my earplugs in, but now I'm sitting with my headphones on because I feel so tired and frazzled as a result of the stress this has caused. > > > > > > > > > > Please help xxx > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2010 Report Share Posted December 19, 2010 I lived in a situation like that for 10 years. Eventually got used to it. Just ran a small fan in every room. It helped a lot. Put on music or TV. Just background noise. And take deeeeep breaths... Mike L. Subject: Re: To: Soundsensitivity Date: Sunday, December 19, 2010, 1:31 AM Dear Tara,Thank you so, so much for your help. I'm sitting here in tears because of the noise outside. Or, more appropriately, my reaction to it. It was all I thought about all day yesterday and I could barely sleep because of it. It took me a while to adjust to living on a main road but now there are traffic lights right outside my house and the cars revving makes me feel quite unsafe. I am going to have a long bath and read Dr Jastreboff's TRT book. I actually purchased a set of earplugs that emit white noise (at a very high price) in the hope that these would allow me to sleep in the front room with my boyfriend where the traffic is loudest. However, they don't block the sound at all, just put white noise over it, so I have a feeling they are similar to the white noise generators you speak of. I am going to have a look for someone who would be able to help me because I'm losing hope that this is something I can do on my own. Thank you again for all your help and I hope you also have a lovely holiday. x> > > > >> > > > > Escape on a holiday? > > > > > > > > > > Try and talk your self down . Do some breathing exercises and keep saying to your self you are calm. www.transparentcorp.com on that site is something that may help you too. Download the neuro programmer 3 and listen to the anxiety tracks or an alpha track or theta track. You can put scripts in there such as " I find the sound of revving cars soothing" or something similar> > > > > > > > > > You can try and play a game with the sounds too, so when you hear a revv try and guess the type, if u get it right reward your self.> > > > > > > > > > NLP may also be helpful, also look up "tapping" its a form of nlp cbt and acupuncture (sort of) rolled into one and is very effective in some cases .> > > > > > > > > > Good luck> > > > > > > > > > Rich> > > > > Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone on 3> > > > > > > > > > Help please> > > > > > > > > > Hi guys,> > > > > > > > > > I live on a main road and today, roadworks started right outside my house which has caused me so much anxiety, especially since I've not been feeling very well. Obviously as it's nighttime, the roadworks have stopped but temporary traffic lights have been installed outside my house and the traffic noise is now causing me a lot of stress. Every minute or so, I heard the revving of engines, which makes my heart jump. Usually I just hear a steady stream of traffic outside, but now I'm hearing cars revving and the floor almost vibrates. I wondered if anyone had any tips to help me cope with this. I have avoided so far putting my earplugs in, but now I'm sitting with my headphones on because I feel so tired and frazzled as a result of the stress this has caused.> > > > > > > > > > Please help xxx> > > > >> > > >> > >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2010 Report Share Posted December 19, 2010 Hi Mike, I live on a main road and I quickly got used to the traffic flowing past. If it was noisy, it bugged me but at least it was going past quickly. Now there are temporary traffic lights, I'm going mad. I don't know how long they will be there for now that the snow's started, and the cars stop right outside my house, revving and making the whole house vibrate. It's making me feel quite unsafe and is definitely not peaceful. I have music on just now but I can still hear the revs and the vibrations. I live on a bit of a hill too so it's particularly loud. It's horrible > > > > > > > > > > > > Escape on a holiday? > > > > > > > > > > > > Try and talk your self down . Do some breathing exercises and keep saying to your self you are calm. www.transparentcorp.com on that site is something that may help you too. Download the neuro programmer 3 and listen to the anxiety tracks or an alpha track or theta track. You can put scripts in there such as " I find the sound of revving cars soothing " or something similar > > > > > > > > > > > > You can try and play a game with the sounds too, so when you hear a revv try and guess the type, if u get it right reward your self. > > > > > > > > > > > > NLP may also be helpful, also look up " tapping " its a form of nlp cbt and acupuncture (sort of) rolled into one and is very effective in some cases . > > > > > > > > > > > > Good luck > > > > > > > > > > > > Rich > > > > > > Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone on 3 > > > > > > > > > > > > Help please > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi guys, > > > > > > > > > > > > I live on a main road and today, roadworks started right outside my house which has caused me so much anxiety, especially since I've not been feeling very well. Obviously as it's nighttime, the roadworks have stopped but temporary traffic lights have been installed outside my house and the traffic noise is now causing me a lot of stress. Every minute or so, I heard the revving of engines, which makes my heart jump. Usually I just hear a steady stream of traffic outside, but now I'm hearing cars revving and the floor almost vibrates. I wondered if anyone had any tips to help me cope with this. I have avoided so far putting my earplugs in, but now I'm sitting with my headphones on because I feel so tired and frazzled as a result of the stress this has caused. > > > > > > > > > > > > Please help xxx > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2010 Report Share Posted December 19, 2010 Hi everyone, Thank you for your advice. It's really good to know that other people have experienced similar situations and have got used to them. It seems quite impossible to get used to this just now. I went out today (it's been snowing here so I haven't been out for a couple of days)as I was stuck in the house getting more and more wrapped up in my thoughts, and I slipped on some ice in the middle of the road and injured myself. I'm ok now but cried like a baby for hours, I felt at the end of my tether, so hopeless because of the traffic noise and the constant barking of the dogs next door, despite me phoning the RSPCA twice. I just feel like I need some peace, a mental break. I have been listening to music a lot but I sometimes get a bit anxious because I can't seem to put the revving noise of cars into the background and still focus on it even when there is music playing. Maybe that's something that will improve with time. I feel like I need some phrases to tell myself when my mind goes into automatic negative thought mode, though I don't know what these could be. Any ideas? xxx > > > > > > > > > > > > Escape on a holiday? > > > > > > > > > > > > Try and talk your self down . Do some breathing exercises and keep saying to your self you are calm. www.transparentcorp.com on that site is something that may help you too. Download the neuro programmer 3 and listen to the anxiety tracks or an alpha track or theta track. You can put scripts in there such as " I find the sound of revving cars soothing " or something similar > > > > > > > > > > > > You can try and play a game with the sounds too, so when you hear a revv try and guess the type, if u get it right reward your self. > > > > > > > > > > > > NLP may also be helpful, also look up " tapping " its a form of nlp cbt and acupuncture (sort of) rolled into one and is very effective in some cases . > > > > > > > > > > > > Good luck > > > > > > > > > > > > Rich > > > > > > Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone on 3 > > > > > > > > > > > > Help please > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi guys, > > > > > > > > > > > > I live on a main road and today, roadworks started right outside my house which has caused me so much anxiety, especially since I've not been feeling very well. Obviously as it's nighttime, the roadworks have stopped but temporary traffic lights have been installed outside my house and the traffic noise is now causing me a lot of stress. Every minute or so, I heard the revving of engines, which makes my heart jump. Usually I just hear a steady stream of traffic outside, but now I'm hearing cars revving and the floor almost vibrates. I wondered if anyone had any tips to help me cope with this. I have avoided so far putting my earplugs in, but now I'm sitting with my headphones on because I feel so tired and frazzled as a result of the stress this has caused. > > > > > > > > > > > > Please help xxx > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2010 Report Share Posted December 19, 2010 THis is Marsha and over 14 years I have worked with many people with 4S. Some do better with sound generators. Some do better with Cognitive Therapy. Some do better with both. Some do better with other approaches including medication for obsessive compulsive disorder, anxiety meds, other drugs. Some do better with exercise, meditation, sensory disorders approaches, or other esoteric approach. To date, after 14 years, I have not yet worked with or hear of any one who achieved what would be termed 'remission'. At not those who had 4S. Misophonia, yes. If you classify misophonia in its simplest meaning, dislike of sound, then I have had patients who have returned fairly happily to the world of sound, even tolerating loud sounds and going about their business. Same thing with hyperacusis, very likely to achieve normal hearing status with the vast majority of patients using audiology approaches like TRT. Not with 4S. I believe you all are riding a 'horse' of a different color. I will also chime in that many have tried to soft music-medium music-loud music cycling approach, for 4S, and I have not yet found ANYONE who discovered a 'cure' with that method. On my staff I have an in house cognitive therapist. I no longer advise 4S patients to visit me, I encourage them to contact local audiologists for trials of sound generators and to find local cognitive behavioral therapist. There is hope, and it is going to lie in evaluating brain chemistry issues... Dr > > > > > > > > > > > > Escape on a holiday? > > > > > > > > > > > > Try and talk your self down . Do some breathing exercises and keep saying to your self you are calm. www.transparentcorp.com on that site is something that may help you too. Download the neuro programmer 3 and listen to the anxiety tracks or an alpha track or theta track. You can put scripts in there such as " I find the sound of revving cars soothing " or something similar > > > > > > > > > > > > You can try and play a game with the sounds too, so when you hear a revv try and guess the type, if u get it right reward your self. > > > > > > > > > > > > NLP may also be helpful, also look up " tapping " its a form of nlp cbt and acupuncture (sort of) rolled into one and is very effective in some cases . > > > > > > > > > > > > Good luck > > > > > > > > > > > > Rich > > > > > > Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone on 3 > > > > > > > > > > > > Help please > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi guys, > > > > > > > > > > > > I live on a main road and today, roadworks started right outside my house which has caused me so much anxiety, especially since I've not been feeling very well. Obviously as it's nighttime, the roadworks have stopped but temporary traffic lights have been installed outside my house and the traffic noise is now causing me a lot of stress. Every minute or so, I heard the revving of engines, which makes my heart jump. Usually I just hear a steady stream of traffic outside, but now I'm hearing cars revving and the floor almost vibrates. I wondered if anyone had any tips to help me cope with this. I have avoided so far putting my earplugs in, but now I'm sitting with my headphones on because I feel so tired and frazzled as a result of the stress this has caused. > > > > > > > > > > > > Please help xxx > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2010 Report Share Posted December 19, 2010 Hi, Marsha! So glad to hear from you on all this! As a psycho-hypnotherapist, I am so interested in these conditions, and totally agree that all treatment needs to be individually applied and evaluated. Just 3 quick questions, if you don't mind...................... Can you clarify how misophonia is different from 4S? In the UK where I am usually based, they are using the term to apply to dislike of/ irritation with specific sounds ranging from chewing, smacking, swallowing, breathing, coughing, tapping, clicking, walking, reving (an engine), knocking etc., etc, etc .How is 4S different, please? Granted no "remission" has been noted in your experience, has there been acceptance,habituation or even amelioration? I am aware that hypnosis as a singular modality is ineffective, but I am interested in combining it with counselling and CBT as part of cognitive and behavioural adjustments. Have you used hypnosis to deal with unconscious processes? Many thanks for your time, and I look forward to hearing from you. With regards, Tara Tara Economakis, Dip.AdvHyp,(N-SHAP),MCRAH,UKCPTelephone 01488-685151/ 686881info@...www.lastingchanges.co.uk To: Soundsensitivity From: Oregon7@...Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 22:42:30 +0000Subject: Re: THis is Marsha and over 14 years I have worked with many people with 4S.Some do better with sound generators.Some do better with Cognitive Therapy.Some do better with both.Some do better with other approaches including medication for obsessive compulsive disorder, anxiety meds, other drugs.Some do better with exercise, meditation, sensory disorders approaches, or other esoteric approach.To date, after 14 years, I have not yet worked with or hear of any one who achieved what would be termed 'remission'. At not those who had 4S.Misophonia, yes. If you classify misophonia in its simplest meaning, dislike of sound, then I have had patients who have returned fairly happily to the world of sound, even tolerating loud sounds and going about their business.Same thing with hyperacusis, very likely to achieve normal hearing status with the vast majority of patients using audiology approaches like TRT.Not with 4S. I believe you all are riding a 'horse' of a different color.I will also chime in that many have tried to soft music-medium music-loud music cycling approach, for 4S, and I have not yet found ANYONE who discovered a 'cure' with that method. On my staff I have an in house cognitive therapist. I no longer advise 4S patients to visit me, I encourage them to contact local audiologists for trials of sound generators and to find local cognitive behavioral therapist.There is hope, and it is going to lie in evaluating brain chemistry issues...Dr > > > > > >> > > > > > Escape on a holiday? > > > > > > > > > > > > Try and talk your self down . Do some breathing exercises and keep saying to your self you are calm. www.transparentcorp.com on that site is something that may help you too. Download the neuro programmer 3 and listen to the anxiety tracks or an alpha track or theta track. You can put scripts in there such as " I find the sound of revving cars soothing" or something similar> > > > > > > > > > > > You can try and play a game with the sounds too, so when you hear a revv try and guess the type, if u get it right reward your self.> > > > > > > > > > > > NLP may also be helpful, also look up "tapping" its a form of nlp cbt and acupuncture (sort of) rolled into one and is very effective in some cases .> > > > > > > > > > > > Good luck> > > > > > > > > > > > Rich> > > > > > Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone on 3> > > > > > > > > > > > Help please> > > > > > > > > > > > Hi guys,> > > > > > > > > > > > I live on a main road and today, roadworks started right outside my house which has caused me so much anxiety, especially since I've not been feeling very well. Obviously as it's nighttime, the roadworks have stopped but temporary traffic lights have been installed outside my house and the traffic noise is now causing me a lot of stress. Every minute or so, I heard the revving of engines, which makes my heart jump. Usually I just hear a steady stream of traffic outside, but now I'm hearing cars revving and the floor almost vibrates. I wondered if anyone had any tips to help me cope with this. I have avoided so far putting my earplugs in, but now I'm sitting with my headphones on because I feel so tired and frazzled as a result of the stress this has caused.> > > > > > > > > > > > Please help xxx> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2010 Report Share Posted December 19, 2010 Hi Marsha and Tara, I too am interested in the questions Tara poses, particularly as to the difference between 4S and misophonia. I don't notice people breathing, eating, chewing etc generally (although pen clicking really aggravates me). These noises that people can't help and which I do myself don't make me anxious (though my stepdad's heavy breathing irked me because he was a smoker and wheezed). However, I am very sensitive to noises like cars or unexpected noises or bangs, noise which I can't see...I'm not sure if this comes under the same category as 4S? Best wishes, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Escape on a holiday? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Try and talk your self down . Do some breathing exercises and keep saying to your self you are calm. www.transparentcorp.com on that site is something that may help you too. Download the neuro programmer 3 and listen to the anxiety tracks or an alpha track or theta track. You can put scripts in there such as " I find the sound of revving cars soothing " or something similar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can try and play a game with the sounds too, so when you hear a revv try and guess the type, if u get it right reward your self. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > NLP may also be helpful, also look up " tapping " its a form of nlp cbt and acupuncture (sort of) rolled into one and is very effective in some cases . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Good luck > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rich > > > > > > > Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone on 3 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Help please > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi guys, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I live on a main road and today, roadworks started right outside my house which has caused me so much anxiety, especially since I've not been feeling very well. Obviously as it's nighttime, the roadworks have stopped but temporary traffic lights have been installed outside my house and the traffic noise is now causing me a lot of stress. Every minute or so, I heard the revving of engines, which makes my heart jump. Usually I just hear a steady stream of traffic outside, but now I'm hearing cars revving and the floor almost vibrates. I wondered if anyone had any tips to help me cope with this. I have avoided so far putting my earplugs in, but now I'm sitting with my headphones on because I feel so tired and frazzled as a result of the stress this has caused. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please help xxx > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2010 Report Share Posted December 19, 2010 > > Hi Marsha and Tara, > > I too am interested in the questions Tara poses, particularly as to the difference between 4S and misophonia. I don't notice people breathing, eating, chewing etc generally (although pen clicking really aggravates me). These noises that people can't help and which I do myself don't make me anxious (though my stepdad's heavy breathing irked me because he was a smoker and wheezed). However, I am very sensitive to noises like cars or unexpected noises or bangs, noise which I can't see...I'm not sure if this comes under the same category as 4S? **************** I think that probably 4S is a subset of misophonia. One significant difference is the characteristic time of onset of 4S prepuberty and the ensuing very typical development of symptoms, generally speaking a parent is often the first trigger or sibling and then a slow spread occurs, also includes visual and tactile triggers. Another is the fact that most 4S people LOVE loud noise and loud sounds, they enjoy sound very much, i.e., music, they have very specific non-random triggers to softer-sounds. Finally the biggest issue is that 4S does not appear to respond to typical misophonia treatment protocols. I did a Monkey Survey with 100 respondents here you can find the data on this site, and there wasn't a single case of 'cure' or 'improvement' using the 3 week cycle suggestion. As to hypnosis, drugs, acupuncture, diet changes, every single thing you can think of has been done to these individuals, even as children, all sorts of counseling and neuro psychology and things you cannot imagine! and at least as far as I am aware, there has not been effective results, maybe slight jogs of better or worse..I think finding this group is a great relief to those with 4S who wonder if 'they' are just 'crazy' or 'weird'. There is a huge element of shame in this problem that affects each one here....adults, kids, parents, family... Dr. J > > Best wishes, > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2010 Report Share Posted December 19, 2010 ... Remember, put things into perspective. Tell yourself that cars make noise, it's a fact that you cannot change. You can however change your thoughts towards the noise. Remind yourself that they are not making this noise to make you anxious, it's just a part of life that cars make noise. Remind yourself that the traffic light situation is temporary. Tell yourself that although you are feeling anxious, the sound will not hurt you and it will end. Tell yourself that is is OK to feel the way you are feeling. Often times I think fighting that feeling of being anxious only makes you more anxious. I've been down this road you are on... you focus on things more and more and feel completely overwhelmed. I spent many times crying like a baby over stupid things like stubbing my toe. You just get SO tired in the mind from fighting this thing that you just can't take it and everything effects you. But it can get better. Patience, persistence and positive thinking are KEY. It won't happen overnight. I started my journey of CBT and positive thinking over a year ago and am now in a place where I am much happier. I still have 4S. I accept that. Sure, I'd LOVE a cure, but until then I will carry on with life the best I can. I no longer fight having this condition. Fighting it is a lost cause. Place little sayings around your house that are positive... perhaps your boyfriend can help you with this. The more you fill your mind with positive things the better. For every negative thought you have, replace it with a positive. This may sound weird, but one thing I often said to myself was even though I hated hearing that sound at the time, I was grateful to be able to hear it. Many people with 4S wish they were deaf... not me. I love certain sounds too much to sacrifice not hearing them. Thunderstorms, a babbling brook, music, someone saying 'I love you'. I'd truly miss hearing those things. When you first realize you have this problem and you are not the only one, you often find yourself consumed by it and you read everything said about it. I did this too. It wasn't until I started CBT when I took time away, and really focused on myself that I started to feel better. I stopped consuming my mind with everyone elses stories. Sometimes I think that can do more harm than good. It's nice to know you are not alone, but it can also make your mind wander further into the negative. Another thing that could possibly help is seeing a doctor and starting an anti-anxiety med. I also did this when I first started CBT. It really helped take the anxiousness down to the level that I could think more clearly and focus more on working on my mind. Don't give up... it's a hard road to travel down but you can do it. Darlene > I just feel like I need some peace, a mental break. I have been listening to music a lot but I sometimes get a bit anxious because I can't seem to put the revving noise of cars into the background and still focus on it even when there is music playing. Maybe that's something that will improve with time. I feel like I need some phrases to tell myself when my mind goes into automatic negative thought mode, though I don't know what these could be. Any ideas? xxx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 20, 2010 Report Share Posted December 20, 2010 Hi Darlene, There is so much truth in what you said. You're right: cars make noise and it not an indication that anyone is out to get me. Yesterday got a bit too much for me. The neighbour's dogs were barking and whining constantly and the traffic outside was filling my head with noise and tension. I think I had a mini breakdown. I definitely think the car noise is something that I can habituate to, I seem to be doing so already which is really good. However, the barking dogs is something that is more intrusive and disruptive. I have phoned the RSPCA twice and have also contacted the local council. I don't know what else I can do. Yesterday they were outside howling for ages. I was trying to say to myself there's nothing I can do about it, but I kept thinking my neighbour must be a horrible, inconsiderate person which didn't contribute to feeling safe in my house. I agree that accepting the anxiety is half the battle. I don't like feeling anxious but trying to fight it never works. I was so anxious yesterday that when I went out and fell on the road, I just wanted to give up there and then. I sat on a bench crying my eyes out, which is very unlike me, but I was so anxious and overwhelmed, I didn't care anymore. I used to wish I was deaf. My mum is hard of hearing and she seems to have it a lot easier somehow! I agree there are a lot of wonderful sounds in the world that I wouldn't want to miss, my boyfriend's voice for one. I have read that if you have 4S you should avoid silence, because silence accentuates the noises and makes them worse. I personally love silence and I find that when I try to avoid it, this makes me anxious too. I agree that reading other people's stories can sometimes be a hindrance. I have read a lot of stories about people who have problems with hearing chewing, breathing etc. and i start to wonder if I too have this. I don't want to create any more problems for myself as these noises don't bother me, but it's difficult not to read the stories of people who can empathise. I have been on anti-anxiety medication in the past and found it to be of help sometimes but it's not a road I'd like to go down again. I really think I can tackle this. I think I need to implement some CBT phrases when the dogs start barking as opposed to instantly going into a panic. Thank you for helping xxx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 27, 2011 Report Share Posted February 27, 2011 I'm so sorry to read that, . Bless your heart. I certainly won't try the hearing damage thing anymore! Sounds like medication would be a good idea for right now. I take Pristiq, which is really good stuff, but it's almost impossible to stop taking. If I miss a dose, I feel dizzy and very much like all my nerves are unraveling. Best wishes to you to feel better soon. To: "Soundsensitivity " <Soundsensitivity >Sent: Sun, February 27, 2011 10:10:23 AMSubject: Re: I did try to damage my hearing because I had tried EVERYTHING from CBT to meds to significant life changes. Now as a result I have severe ringing in my ears (tinnitus) for nearly a year and it feels awful. My head feels off kilter. It is so hard to explain. My left side of my face feels full and extra loud while the right side feels empty and all the sounds are loud. And the 4s didn't disappear.I read that people who are deaf often have ringing and hear wonky sounds. I wish I had known this before. Also, I think that for me it would just move to visual cues instead of noises.I am really really struggling because texting and typing drive me crazy mad and computers and cell phones are everywhere now. I told my husband I needed to try some medication again because I am at the end of my rope.Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless handheld------------------------------------PLEASE BE AWARE THIS IS A STRICTLY CONFIDENTIAL GROUP AND NO MESSAGES ARE TO BE USED FOR ANY PURPOSE OUTSIDE OF THE YAHOO GROUP MEMBERSHIP SITE OR REPRODUCED OR COPIED AND MAILED FOR ANY PURPOSE. ALSO DO NOT SHARE MEMBER EMAIL ADDRESSES OR NAMES WITH ANYONE.Thank you. MJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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