Re: Neurofeedback questions

[Guest guest]

I would be very cautious about using NBF for misophonia. There are a couple

anecdotal reports here but again, this is very much an experiment and I caution

everyone to be thoughtful before rushing off to spend $ on sessions that have

zero database or history.

The Placebo effect is enormous and directly related to how badly the person

wants and needs to improve.

I am quite concerned about this topic and how those with children and teens are

responding.

I have tried to keep those who want to 'sell' you therapies out of this group

for many reasons, unless they seemed to have a legitimate scientific approach,

presented by professionals with clear certification and accepted credentials,

etc etc.

It never occured to me that it would arise FROM those here who are members of

the group. It probably should have.

I do not want to stymie anyone's effort to obtain help for misophonia. We have

so much territory to explore.

But I do not WANT this group to become a neuro bio feedback group, either.

There are surely support groups or sites for that focus.

From what I can tell, and it does make me wonder, every one who sells NBF is

willing to stick on electrodes to heads, whatever size, and do 'treatments' for

something that they do not know about, have never heard of, cannot find any

basis for, and cannot provide any hard evidence of long term outcome.

THAT worries me. Not one single provider of this 'service' has contacted me or

any other Misophonia professional that I know of....to ask about it, invite

collaboration or sharing.

Every week I get calls from audiologists who want to know, what is this, how can

I help?

But not a single NBF vendor has ever called me. Why is that?

Marsha , Audiologist

>

>

> Hi,

>

>

>

> First, please excuse my poor English – it is not my mother tongue.

>

>

>

> My 13 years old son suffers from 100% miso symptoms with 24/7 rage when

> he is with us (parents and his sister). He spends his days and nights

> alone in his room. Most (if not all) of the messages in this forum

> describe our life….All of this is accompanied with depression, and

> OCD diagnosis. We have tried 5 different OCD medications, 2 different

> psychological treatments (one was CBT). None of these treatments helped.

>

> He started Neurofeedback, and done 21 sessions of 30 minutes each –

> twice a week. The Neurofeedback therapist says that she sees progress in

> the measured brain waves levels, and that he is close to levels that we

> can expect to see the changes (at least from the aspect of depression

> – they do not have experience with miso…).

>

> I read messages from Clyle, Heidi and Bernadette on Neurofeedback

> progress and success. I wonder if I can ask to get information on

> Neurofeedback treatments that show progress. I think that sharing

> information may help all of us, and I intend to share information in

> case of success (and in failure case as well…)

>

> My questions...:

>

> - What are the protocols of the Neurofeedback treatment – what

> brainwaves are trained? For example – raising the levels of Alpha

> while reducing theta brainwaves levels, training beta, or SMR? These are

> just example, and I would like to get this information in order to share

> it with my son's therapist.

>

> – What is the location of the electrode? – I think that this is

> also important.

>

>

>

>

> I hope that it is OK asking these questions. I asked my son's

> therapist to contact Clyle's practitioner as Clyle suggested. I want

> to get as much information as possible in order to help my son to get

> out of his daily suffering, and back to normal life as he deserves.

>

>

>

> Thank you!

>

> Art

>

[Guest guest]

I would be very cautious about using NBF for misophonia. There are a couple

anecdotal reports here but again, this is very much an experiment and I caution

everyone to be thoughtful before rushing off to spend $ on sessions that have

zero database or history.

The Placebo effect is enormous and directly related to how badly the person

wants and needs to improve.

I am quite concerned about this topic and how those with children and teens are

responding.

I have tried to keep those who want to 'sell' you therapies out of this group

for many reasons, unless they seemed to have a legitimate scientific approach,

presented by professionals with clear certification and accepted credentials,

etc etc.

It never occured to me that it would arise FROM those here who are members of

the group. It probably should have.

I do not want to stymie anyone's effort to obtain help for misophonia. We have

so much territory to explore.

But I do not WANT this group to become a neuro bio feedback group, either.

There are surely support groups or sites for that focus.

From what I can tell, and it does make me wonder, every one who sells NBF is

willing to stick on electrodes to heads, whatever size, and do 'treatments' for

something that they do not know about, have never heard of, cannot find any

basis for, and cannot provide any hard evidence of long term outcome.

THAT worries me. Not one single provider of this 'service' has contacted me or

any other Misophonia professional that I know of....to ask about it, invite

collaboration or sharing.

Every week I get calls from audiologists who want to know, what is this, how can

I help?

But not a single NBF vendor has ever called me. Why is that?

Marsha , Audiologist

>

>

> Hi,

>

>

>

> First, please excuse my poor English – it is not my mother tongue.

>

>

>

> My 13 years old son suffers from 100% miso symptoms with 24/7 rage when

> he is with us (parents and his sister). He spends his days and nights

> alone in his room. Most (if not all) of the messages in this forum

> describe our life….All of this is accompanied with depression, and

> OCD diagnosis. We have tried 5 different OCD medications, 2 different

> psychological treatments (one was CBT). None of these treatments helped.

>

> He started Neurofeedback, and done 21 sessions of 30 minutes each –

> twice a week. The Neurofeedback therapist says that she sees progress in

> the measured brain waves levels, and that he is close to levels that we

> can expect to see the changes (at least from the aspect of depression

> – they do not have experience with miso…).

>

> I read messages from Clyle, Heidi and Bernadette on Neurofeedback

> progress and success. I wonder if I can ask to get information on

> Neurofeedback treatments that show progress. I think that sharing

> information may help all of us, and I intend to share information in

> case of success (and in failure case as well…)

>

> My questions...:

>

> - What are the protocols of the Neurofeedback treatment – what

> brainwaves are trained? For example – raising the levels of Alpha

> while reducing theta brainwaves levels, training beta, or SMR? These are

> just example, and I would like to get this information in order to share

> it with my son's therapist.

>

> – What is the location of the electrode? – I think that this is

> also important.

>

>

>

>

> I hope that it is OK asking these questions. I asked my son's

> therapist to contact Clyle's practitioner as Clyle suggested. I want

> to get as much information as possible in order to help my son to get

> out of his daily suffering, and back to normal life as he deserves.

>

>

>

> Thank you!

>

> Art

>

[Guest guest]

I agree with you Marsha, as a mental health therapist and someone who has

suffered with Miso as far back as I can remember, I would be careful with NBF as

well. I appreciate you message below!!!!

> >

> >

> > Hi,

> >

> >

> >

> > First, please excuse my poor English – it is not my mother tongue.

> >

> >

> >

> > My 13 years old son suffers from 100% miso symptoms with 24/7 rage when

> > he is with us (parents and his sister). He spends his days and nights

> > alone in his room. Most (if not all) of the messages in this forum

> > describe our life….All of this is accompanied with depression, and

> > OCD diagnosis. We have tried 5 different OCD medications, 2 different

> > psychological treatments (one was CBT). None of these treatments helped.

> >

> > He started Neurofeedback, and done 21 sessions of 30 minutes each –

> > twice a week. The Neurofeedback therapist says that she sees progress in

> > the measured brain waves levels, and that he is close to levels that we

> > can expect to see the changes (at least from the aspect of depression

> > – they do not have experience with miso…).

> >

> > I read messages from Clyle, Heidi and Bernadette on Neurofeedback

> > progress and success. I wonder if I can ask to get information on

> > Neurofeedback treatments that show progress. I think that sharing

> > information may help all of us, and I intend to share information in

> > case of success (and in failure case as well…)

> >

> > My questions...:

> >

> > - What are the protocols of the Neurofeedback treatment – what

> > brainwaves are trained? For example – raising the levels of Alpha

> > while reducing theta brainwaves levels, training beta, or SMR? These are

> > just example, and I would like to get this information in order to share

> > it with my son's therapist.

> >

> > – What is the location of the electrode? – I think that this is

> > also important.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > I hope that it is OK asking these questions. I asked my son's

> > therapist to contact Clyle's practitioner as Clyle suggested. I want

> > to get as much information as possible in order to help my son to get

> > out of his daily suffering, and back to normal life as he deserves.

> >

> >

> >

> > Thank you!

> >

> > Art

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I agree with you Marsha, as a mental health therapist and someone who has

suffered with Miso as far back as I can remember, I would be careful with NBF as

well. I appreciate you message below!!!!

> >

> >

> > Hi,

> >

> >

> >

> > First, please excuse my poor English – it is not my mother tongue.

> >

> >

> >

> > My 13 years old son suffers from 100% miso symptoms with 24/7 rage when

> > he is with us (parents and his sister). He spends his days and nights

> > alone in his room. Most (if not all) of the messages in this forum

> > describe our life….All of this is accompanied with depression, and

> > OCD diagnosis. We have tried 5 different OCD medications, 2 different

> > psychological treatments (one was CBT). None of these treatments helped.

> >

> > He started Neurofeedback, and done 21 sessions of 30 minutes each –

> > twice a week. The Neurofeedback therapist says that she sees progress in

> > the measured brain waves levels, and that he is close to levels that we

> > can expect to see the changes (at least from the aspect of depression

> > – they do not have experience with miso…).

> >

> > I read messages from Clyle, Heidi and Bernadette on Neurofeedback

> > progress and success. I wonder if I can ask to get information on

> > Neurofeedback treatments that show progress. I think that sharing

> > information may help all of us, and I intend to share information in

> > case of success (and in failure case as well…)

> >

> > My questions...:

> >

> > - What are the protocols of the Neurofeedback treatment – what

> > brainwaves are trained? For example – raising the levels of Alpha

> > while reducing theta brainwaves levels, training beta, or SMR? These are

> > just example, and I would like to get this information in order to share

> > it with my son's therapist.

> >

> > – What is the location of the electrode? – I think that this is

> > also important.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > I hope that it is OK asking these questions. I asked my son's

> > therapist to contact Clyle's practitioner as Clyle suggested. I want

> > to get as much information as possible in order to help my son to get

> > out of his daily suffering, and back to normal life as he deserves.

> >

> >

> >

> > Thank you!

> >

> > Art

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Dr. Steve Rothman, an NFB practitioner from Seattle, called you and talked to you on the phone a few months ago. He said you basically spoke down to him and denied him access to the site, which he was hoping to follow in order to learn more.

I would be very cautious about using NBF for misophonia. There are a couple anecdotal reports here but again, this is very much an experiment and I caution everyone to be thoughtful before rushing off to spend $ on sessions that have zero database or history.

The Placebo effect is enormous and directly related to how badly the person wants and needs to improve.

I am quite concerned about this topic and how those with children and teens are responding.

I have tried to keep those who want to 'sell' you therapies out of this group for many reasons, unless they seemed to have a legitimate scientific approach, presented by professionals with clear certification and accepted credentials, etc etc.

It never occured to me that it would arise FROM those here who are members of the group. It probably should have.

I do not want to stymie anyone's effort to obtain help for misophonia. We have so much territory to explore.

But I do not WANT this group to become a neuro bio feedback group, either. There are surely support groups or sites for that focus.

From what I can tell, and it does make me wonder, every one who sells NBF is willing to stick on electrodes to heads, whatever size, and do 'treatments' for something that they do not know about, have never heard of, cannot find any basis for, and cannot provide any hard evidence of long term outcome.

THAT worries me. Not one single provider of this 'service' has contacted me or any other Misophonia professional that I know of....to ask about it, invite collaboration or sharing.

Every week I get calls from audiologists who want to know, what is this, how can I help?

But not a single NBF vendor has ever called me. Why is that?

Marsha , Audiologist

[Guest guest]

Dr. Steve Rothman, an NFB practitioner from Seattle, called you and talked to you on the phone a few months ago. He said you basically spoke down to him and denied him access to the site, which he was hoping to follow in order to learn more.

I would be very cautious about using NBF for misophonia. There are a couple anecdotal reports here but again, this is very much an experiment and I caution everyone to be thoughtful before rushing off to spend $ on sessions that have zero database or history.

The Placebo effect is enormous and directly related to how badly the person wants and needs to improve.

I am quite concerned about this topic and how those with children and teens are responding.

I have tried to keep those who want to 'sell' you therapies out of this group for many reasons, unless they seemed to have a legitimate scientific approach, presented by professionals with clear certification and accepted credentials, etc etc.

It never occured to me that it would arise FROM those here who are members of the group. It probably should have.

I do not want to stymie anyone's effort to obtain help for misophonia. We have so much territory to explore.

But I do not WANT this group to become a neuro bio feedback group, either. There are surely support groups or sites for that focus.

From what I can tell, and it does make me wonder, every one who sells NBF is willing to stick on electrodes to heads, whatever size, and do 'treatments' for something that they do not know about, have never heard of, cannot find any basis for, and cannot provide any hard evidence of long term outcome.

THAT worries me. Not one single provider of this 'service' has contacted me or any other Misophonia professional that I know of....to ask about it, invite collaboration or sharing.

Every week I get calls from audiologists who want to know, what is this, how can I help?

But not a single NBF vendor has ever called me. Why is that?

Marsha , Audiologist

[Guest guest]

The post below feels confrontational.  I'm unhappy with conversations that have near-accusations of he-said-this and she-said-that.  It takes the quality of the conversation down a level.Supplying Marsha personally with a reminder of a conversation seems like a better step, as opposed to publishing to a group.  If we don't trust Marsha to react and behave in a professional way (as she always has), then we'll all soon be back to square one.

I am grateful for all efforts to help keep this group a safe place for those who suffer from sound sensitivity, and those close to them, and to keep it a place where posts are as objective as possible, with no self-gain or sales existing as a possible result of a post.

Bette

 

Dr. Steve Rothman, an NFB practitioner from Seattle, called you and talked to you on the phone a few months ago. He said you basically spoke down to him and denied him access to the site, which he was hoping to follow in order to learn more.

 

I would be very cautious about using NBF for misophonia. There are a couple anecdotal reports here but again, this is very much an experiment and I caution everyone to be thoughtful before rushing off to spend $ on sessions that have zero database or history.

The Placebo effect is enormous and directly related to how badly the person wants and needs to improve.

I am quite concerned about this topic and how those with children and teens are responding.

I have tried to keep those who want to 'sell' you therapies out of this group for many reasons, unless they seemed to have a legitimate scientific approach, presented by professionals with clear certification and accepted credentials, etc etc.

It never occured to me that it would arise FROM those here who are members of the group. It probably should have.

I do not want to stymie anyone's effort to obtain help for misophonia. We have so much territory to explore.

But I do not WANT this group to become a neuro bio feedback group, either. There are surely support groups or sites for that focus.

From what I can tell, and it does make me wonder, every one who sells NBF is willing to stick on electrodes to heads, whatever size, and do 'treatments' for something that they do not know about, have never heard of, cannot find any basis for, and cannot provide any hard evidence of long term outcome.

THAT worries me. Not one single provider of this 'service' has contacted me or any other Misophonia professional that I know of....to ask about it, invite collaboration or sharing.

Every week I get calls from audiologists who want to know, what is this, how can I help?

But not a single NBF vendor has ever called me. Why is that?

Marsha , Audiologist

[Guest guest]

The post below feels confrontational.  I'm unhappy with conversations that have near-accusations of he-said-this and she-said-that.  It takes the quality of the conversation down a level.Supplying Marsha personally with a reminder of a conversation seems like a better step, as opposed to publishing to a group.  If we don't trust Marsha to react and behave in a professional way (as she always has), then we'll all soon be back to square one.

I am grateful for all efforts to help keep this group a safe place for those who suffer from sound sensitivity, and those close to them, and to keep it a place where posts are as objective as possible, with no self-gain or sales existing as a possible result of a post.

Bette

 

Dr. Steve Rothman, an NFB practitioner from Seattle, called you and talked to you on the phone a few months ago. He said you basically spoke down to him and denied him access to the site, which he was hoping to follow in order to learn more.

 

I would be very cautious about using NBF for misophonia. There are a couple anecdotal reports here but again, this is very much an experiment and I caution everyone to be thoughtful before rushing off to spend $ on sessions that have zero database or history.

The Placebo effect is enormous and directly related to how badly the person wants and needs to improve.

I am quite concerned about this topic and how those with children and teens are responding.

I have tried to keep those who want to 'sell' you therapies out of this group for many reasons, unless they seemed to have a legitimate scientific approach, presented by professionals with clear certification and accepted credentials, etc etc.

It never occured to me that it would arise FROM those here who are members of the group. It probably should have.

I do not want to stymie anyone's effort to obtain help for misophonia. We have so much territory to explore.

But I do not WANT this group to become a neuro bio feedback group, either. There are surely support groups or sites for that focus.

From what I can tell, and it does make me wonder, every one who sells NBF is willing to stick on electrodes to heads, whatever size, and do 'treatments' for something that they do not know about, have never heard of, cannot find any basis for, and cannot provide any hard evidence of long term outcome.

THAT worries me. Not one single provider of this 'service' has contacted me or any other Misophonia professional that I know of....to ask about it, invite collaboration or sharing.

Every week I get calls from audiologists who want to know, what is this, how can I help?

But not a single NBF vendor has ever called me. Why is that?

Marsha , Audiologist

[Guest guest]

Sad thing is not very many credentialed professionals are interested in doing research on Misophonia, so we have to do the experimenting ourselves. My daughter is way better than she was when she first got Misophonia, and one thing we did early on was NFB. Maybe that is why she got better (I will never know because I tried so many other things at the same time). So now I’m taking her to more NFB sessions to see if we can make it completely go away. I am blessed with the insurance to try NFB so I’m going to try it. If others who don’t have a lot of out-of-pocket expense want to try it, why not? Like I said—No one else seems to want to do any practical research on it. From: Soundsensitivity [mailto:Soundsensitivity ] On Behalf Of anthro_popSent: Saturday, July 21, 2012 2:17 PMTo: Soundsensitivity Subject: Re: Neurofeedback questions I would be very cautious about using NBF for misophonia. There are a couple anecdotal reports here but again, this is very much an experiment and I caution everyone to be thoughtful before rushing off to spend $ on sessions that have zero database or history.The Placebo effect is enormous and directly related to how badly the person wants and needs to improve.I am quite concerned about this topic and how those with children and teens are responding.I have tried to keep those who want to 'sell' you therapies out of this group for many reasons, unless they seemed to have a legitimate scientific approach, presented by professionals with clear certification and accepted credentials, etc etc.It never occured to me that it would arise FROM those here who are members of the group. It probably should have.I do not want to stymie anyone's effort to obtain help for misophonia. We have so much territory to explore.But I do not WANT this group to become a neuro bio feedback group, either. There are surely support groups or sites for that focus.From what I can tell, and it does make me wonder, every one who sells NBF is willing to stick on electrodes to heads, whatever size, and do 'treatments' for something that they do not know about, have never heard of, cannot find any basis for, and cannot provide any hard evidence of long term outcome.THAT worries me. Not one single provider of this 'service' has contacted me or any other Misophonia professional that I know of....to ask about it, invite collaboration or sharing.Every week I get calls from audiologists who want to know, what is this, how can I help?But not a single NBF vendor has ever called me. Why is that?Marsha , Audiologist>> > Hi,> > > > First, please excuse my poor English – it is not my mother tongue.> > > > My 13 years old son suffers from 100% miso symptoms with 24/7 rage when> he is with us (parents and his sister). He spends his days and nights> alone in his room. Most (if not all) of the messages in this forum> describe our life….All of this is accompanied with depression, and> OCD diagnosis. We have tried 5 different OCD medications, 2 different> psychological treatments (one was CBT). None of these treatments helped.> > He started Neurofeedback, and done 21 sessions of 30 minutes each –> twice a week. The Neurofeedback therapist says that she sees progress in> the measured brain waves levels, and that he is close to levels that we> can expect to see the changes (at least from the aspect of depression> – they do not have experience with miso…).> > I read messages from Clyle, Heidi and Bernadette on Neurofeedback> progress and success. I wonder if I can ask to get information on> Neurofeedback treatments that show progress. I think that sharing> information may help all of us, and I intend to share information in> case of success (and in failure case as well…)> > My questions...:> > - What are the protocols of the Neurofeedback treatment – what> brainwaves are trained? For example – raising the levels of Alpha> while reducing theta brainwaves levels, training beta, or SMR? These are> just example, and I would like to get this information in order to share> it with my son's therapist.> > – What is the location of the electrode? – I think that this is> also important.> > > > > I hope that it is OK asking these questions. I asked my son's> therapist to contact Clyle's practitioner as Clyle suggested. I want> to get as much information as possible in order to help my son to get> out of his daily suffering, and back to normal life as he deserves.> > > > Thank you!> > Art>

[Guest guest]

Sad thing is not very many credentialed professionals are interested in doing research on Misophonia, so we have to do the experimenting ourselves. My daughter is way better than she was when she first got Misophonia, and one thing we did early on was NFB. Maybe that is why she got better (I will never know because I tried so many other things at the same time). So now I’m taking her to more NFB sessions to see if we can make it completely go away. I am blessed with the insurance to try NFB so I’m going to try it. If others who don’t have a lot of out-of-pocket expense want to try it, why not? Like I said—No one else seems to want to do any practical research on it. From: Soundsensitivity [mailto:Soundsensitivity ] On Behalf Of anthro_popSent: Saturday, July 21, 2012 2:17 PMTo: Soundsensitivity Subject: Re: Neurofeedback questions I would be very cautious about using NBF for misophonia. There are a couple anecdotal reports here but again, this is very much an experiment and I caution everyone to be thoughtful before rushing off to spend $ on sessions that have zero database or history.The Placebo effect is enormous and directly related to how badly the person wants and needs to improve.I am quite concerned about this topic and how those with children and teens are responding.I have tried to keep those who want to 'sell' you therapies out of this group for many reasons, unless they seemed to have a legitimate scientific approach, presented by professionals with clear certification and accepted credentials, etc etc.It never occured to me that it would arise FROM those here who are members of the group. It probably should have.I do not want to stymie anyone's effort to obtain help for misophonia. We have so much territory to explore.But I do not WANT this group to become a neuro bio feedback group, either. There are surely support groups or sites for that focus.From what I can tell, and it does make me wonder, every one who sells NBF is willing to stick on electrodes to heads, whatever size, and do 'treatments' for something that they do not know about, have never heard of, cannot find any basis for, and cannot provide any hard evidence of long term outcome.THAT worries me. Not one single provider of this 'service' has contacted me or any other Misophonia professional that I know of....to ask about it, invite collaboration or sharing.Every week I get calls from audiologists who want to know, what is this, how can I help?But not a single NBF vendor has ever called me. Why is that?Marsha , Audiologist>> > Hi,> > > > First, please excuse my poor English – it is not my mother tongue.> > > > My 13 years old son suffers from 100% miso symptoms with 24/7 rage when> he is with us (parents and his sister). He spends his days and nights> alone in his room. Most (if not all) of the messages in this forum> describe our life….All of this is accompanied with depression, and> OCD diagnosis. We have tried 5 different OCD medications, 2 different> psychological treatments (one was CBT). None of these treatments helped.> > He started Neurofeedback, and done 21 sessions of 30 minutes each –> twice a week. The Neurofeedback therapist says that she sees progress in> the measured brain waves levels, and that he is close to levels that we> can expect to see the changes (at least from the aspect of depression> – they do not have experience with miso…).> > I read messages from Clyle, Heidi and Bernadette on Neurofeedback> progress and success. I wonder if I can ask to get information on> Neurofeedback treatments that show progress. I think that sharing> information may help all of us, and I intend to share information in> case of success (and in failure case as well…)> > My questions...:> > - What are the protocols of the Neurofeedback treatment – what> brainwaves are trained? For example – raising the levels of Alpha> while reducing theta brainwaves levels, training beta, or SMR? These are> just example, and I would like to get this information in order to share> it with my son's therapist.> > – What is the location of the electrode? – I think that this is> also important.> > > > > I hope that it is OK asking these questions. I asked my son's> therapist to contact Clyle's practitioner as Clyle suggested. I want> to get as much information as possible in order to help my son to get> out of his daily suffering, and back to normal life as he deserves.> > > > Thank you!> > Art>

[Guest guest]

My goodness everyone lets relax. We are all doing the best we can with what we know for ourselves and this site is an amazing tool to help us all in our own journey. I did Brain State in Austin Tx a year and a half before I even knew I had Misophonia. It is much like NFB. I felt an immediate reprieve from my own "clatter" that I now know to be Misophonia. I will continue to have this done as I often as I can,, it is expensive. There is no silver bullet and the answer if feel will be found through an integration of what we learn. Hey we know what it is that is enormous progress!!!!Sent from my iPad

You're entitled to your opinion but don't we all deserve to know the truth? I was simply stating a fact, you can readInto what you like. This is why I prefer to lurk...Sent from my iPhone

The post below feels confrontational. I'm unhappy with conversations that have near-accusations of he-said-this and she-said-that. It takes the quality of the conversation down a level.Supplying Marsha personally with a reminder of a conversation seems like a better step, as opposed to publishing to a group. If we don't trust Marsha to react and behave in a professional way (as she always has), then we'll all soon be back to square one.

I am grateful for all efforts to help keep this group a safe place for those who suffer from sound sensitivity, and those close to them, and to keep it a place where posts are as objective as possible, with no self-gain or sales existing as a possible result of a post.

Bette

Dr. Steve Rothman, an NFB practitioner from Seattle, called you and talked to you on the phone a few months ago. He said you basically spoke down to him and denied him access to the site, which he was hoping to follow in order to learn more.

I would be very cautious about using NBF for misophonia. There are a couple anecdotal reports here but again, this is very much an experiment and I caution everyone to be thoughtful before rushing off to spend $ on sessions that have zero database or history.

The Placebo effect is enormous and directly related to how badly the person wants and needs to improve.

I am quite concerned about this topic and how those with children and teens are responding.

I have tried to keep those who want to 'sell' you therapies out of this group for many reasons, unless they seemed to have a legitimate scientific approach, presented by professionals with clear certification and accepted credentials, etc etc.

It never occured to me that it would arise FROM those here who are members of the group. It probably should have.

I do not want to stymie anyone's effort to obtain help for misophonia. We have so much territory to explore.

But I do not WANT this group to become a neuro bio feedback group, either. There are surely support groups or sites for that focus.

From what I can tell, and it does make me wonder, every one who sells NBF is willing to stick on electrodes to heads, whatever size, and do 'treatments' for something that they do not know about, have never heard of, cannot find any basis for, and cannot provide any hard evidence of long term outcome.

THAT worries me. Not one single provider of this 'service' has contacted me or any other Misophonia professional that I know of....to ask about it, invite collaboration or sharing.

Every week I get calls from audiologists who want to know, what is this, how can I help?

But not a single NBF vendor has ever called me. Why is that?

Marsha , Audiologist

=

[Guest guest]

My goodness everyone lets relax. We are all doing the best we can with what we know for ourselves and this site is an amazing tool to help us all in our own journey. I did Brain State in Austin Tx a year and a half before I even knew I had Misophonia. It is much like NFB. I felt an immediate reprieve from my own "clatter" that I now know to be Misophonia. I will continue to have this done as I often as I can,, it is expensive. There is no silver bullet and the answer if feel will be found through an integration of what we learn. Hey we know what it is that is enormous progress!!!!Sent from my iPad

You're entitled to your opinion but don't we all deserve to know the truth? I was simply stating a fact, you can readInto what you like. This is why I prefer to lurk...Sent from my iPhone

The post below feels confrontational. I'm unhappy with conversations that have near-accusations of he-said-this and she-said-that. It takes the quality of the conversation down a level.Supplying Marsha personally with a reminder of a conversation seems like a better step, as opposed to publishing to a group. If we don't trust Marsha to react and behave in a professional way (as she always has), then we'll all soon be back to square one.

I am grateful for all efforts to help keep this group a safe place for those who suffer from sound sensitivity, and those close to them, and to keep it a place where posts are as objective as possible, with no self-gain or sales existing as a possible result of a post.

Bette

Dr. Steve Rothman, an NFB practitioner from Seattle, called you and talked to you on the phone a few months ago. He said you basically spoke down to him and denied him access to the site, which he was hoping to follow in order to learn more.

I would be very cautious about using NBF for misophonia. There are a couple anecdotal reports here but again, this is very much an experiment and I caution everyone to be thoughtful before rushing off to spend $ on sessions that have zero database or history.

The Placebo effect is enormous and directly related to how badly the person wants and needs to improve.

I am quite concerned about this topic and how those with children and teens are responding.

I have tried to keep those who want to 'sell' you therapies out of this group for many reasons, unless they seemed to have a legitimate scientific approach, presented by professionals with clear certification and accepted credentials, etc etc.

It never occured to me that it would arise FROM those here who are members of the group. It probably should have.

I do not want to stymie anyone's effort to obtain help for misophonia. We have so much territory to explore.

But I do not WANT this group to become a neuro bio feedback group, either. There are surely support groups or sites for that focus.

From what I can tell, and it does make me wonder, every one who sells NBF is willing to stick on electrodes to heads, whatever size, and do 'treatments' for something that they do not know about, have never heard of, cannot find any basis for, and cannot provide any hard evidence of long term outcome.

THAT worries me. Not one single provider of this 'service' has contacted me or any other Misophonia professional that I know of....to ask about it, invite collaboration or sharing.

Every week I get calls from audiologists who want to know, what is this, how can I help?

But not a single NBF vendor has ever called me. Why is that?

Marsha , Audiologist

=

[Guest guest]

I will continue to do nfb for my daughter. She hates it and never wants to go so I don't think she is getting a placebo effect. She says it's not helping her but if I stop and think about all her improvements with her quality of life; What else helped her? I've been trying for years with little success. Is it because she hit rock bottom and almost died., I still don't think so. The fact is, nfb is helping her in other areas of her life which is helping her cope better with misophonia. The triggers haven't left but her reaction to them has improved. If we can't find a cure, isn't that better than nothing, to be able to cope with it, if we can't get rid of it. I thought we were also trying to find ways to cope and nfb is helping her cope. If someone

would tell me this is a bad thing to do and it will damage her brain then I would stop. But until then, I am pleased I got my little girl back laughing and talking with me again. As for money, her therapist wants her to get better so badly that she is not even taking money from us for the summer because she knows we can't afford it. (Since I don't work in the summer and don't have the funds) So I don't think she is out for the money, she truly cares about my daughter and helping her cope. When I was on the phone with her yesterday, she started to cry when I told her how much she has improved. As I mentioned in a previous note, 's therapist's voice is now a trigger so we are in a tricky situation but she continues to go.Sometimes I get frustrated talking about misophonia too. We got bashed because was such

an extreme case, now we are getting bashed because she is improving. I'm just happy she is happier. She has been suffering since she was 8 at the extreme level. She was exhausted. On every note, I have said, we still have a long road ahead of us because she is still struggling..but she is living happier and that makes me happy. I'm not trying to push anything on anyone, I'm just over the moon with excitement because my daughter doesn't want to die anymore. Everyday she laid in her bed, crying she just wanted to die because of this condition. I just wanted to share my happiness with everyone.Lets continue to talk about ALL the things that helps us cope since we don't have a cure yet. I hope we can do that. To: Soundsensitivity Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2012 2:17 PM Subject: Re: Neurofeedback questions

I would be very cautious about using NBF for misophonia. There are a couple anecdotal reports here but again, this is very much an experiment and I caution everyone to be thoughtful before rushing off to spend $ on sessions that have zero database or history.

The Placebo effect is enormous and directly related to how badly the person wants and needs to improve.

I am quite concerned about this topic and how those with children and teens are responding.

I have tried to keep those who want to 'sell' you therapies out of this group for many reasons, unless they seemed to have a legitimate scientific approach, presented by professionals with clear certification and accepted credentials, etc etc.

It never occured to me that it would arise FROM those here who are members of the group. It probably should have.

I do not want to stymie anyone's effort to obtain help for misophonia. We have so much territory to explore.

But I do not WANT this group to become a neuro bio feedback group, either. There are surely support groups or sites for that focus.

From what I can tell, and it does make me wonder, every one who sells NBF is willing to stick on electrodes to heads, whatever size, and do 'treatments' for something that they do not know about, have never heard of, cannot find any basis for, and cannot provide any hard evidence of long term outcome.

THAT worries me. Not one single provider of this 'service' has contacted me or any other Misophonia professional that I know of....to ask about it, invite collaboration or sharing.

Every week I get calls from audiologists who want to know, what is this, how can I help?

But not a single NBF vendor has ever called me. Why is that?

Marsha , Audiologist

>

>

> Hi,

>

>

>

> First, please excuse my poor English – it is not my mother tongue.

>

>

>

> My 13 years old son suffers from 100% miso symptoms with 24/7 rage when

> he is with us (parents and his sister). He spends his days and nights

> alone in his room. Most (if not all) of the messages in this forum

> describe our life….All of this is accompanied with depression, and

> OCD diagnosis. We have tried 5 different OCD medications, 2 different

> psychological treatments (one was CBT). None of these treatments helped.

>

> He started Neurofeedback, and done 21 sessions of 30 minutes each –

> twice a week. The Neurofeedback therapist says that she sees progress in

> the measured brain waves levels, and that he is close to levels that we

> can expect to see the changes (at least from the aspect of depression

> – they do not have experience with miso…).

>

> I read messages from Clyle, Heidi and Bernadette on Neurofeedback

> progress and success. I wonder if I can ask to get information on

> Neurofeedback treatments that show progress. I think that sharing

> information may help all of us, and I intend to share information in

> case of success (and in failure case as well…)

>

> My questions...:

>

> - What are the protocols of the Neurofeedback treatment – what

> brainwaves are trained? For example – raising the levels of Alpha

> while reducing theta brainwaves levels, training beta, or SMR? These are

> just example, and I would like to get this information in order to share

> it with my son's therapist.

>

> – What is the location of the electrode? – I think that this is

> also important.

>

>

>

>

> I hope that it is OK asking these questions. I asked my son's

> therapist to contact Clyle's practitioner as Clyle suggested. I want

> to get as much information as possible in order to help my son to get

> out of his daily suffering, and back to normal life as he deserves.

>

>

>

> Thank you!

>

> Art

>

[Guest guest]

I will continue to do nfb for my daughter. She hates it and never wants to go so I don't think she is getting a placebo effect. She says it's not helping her but if I stop and think about all her improvements with her quality of life; What else helped her? I've been trying for years with little success. Is it because she hit rock bottom and almost died., I still don't think so. The fact is, nfb is helping her in other areas of her life which is helping her cope better with misophonia. The triggers haven't left but her reaction to them has improved. If we can't find a cure, isn't that better than nothing, to be able to cope with it, if we can't get rid of it. I thought we were also trying to find ways to cope and nfb is helping her cope. If someone

would tell me this is a bad thing to do and it will damage her brain then I would stop. But until then, I am pleased I got my little girl back laughing and talking with me again. As for money, her therapist wants her to get better so badly that she is not even taking money from us for the summer because she knows we can't afford it. (Since I don't work in the summer and don't have the funds) So I don't think she is out for the money, she truly cares about my daughter and helping her cope. When I was on the phone with her yesterday, she started to cry when I told her how much she has improved. As I mentioned in a previous note, 's therapist's voice is now a trigger so we are in a tricky situation but she continues to go.Sometimes I get frustrated talking about misophonia too. We got bashed because was such

an extreme case, now we are getting bashed because she is improving. I'm just happy she is happier. She has been suffering since she was 8 at the extreme level. She was exhausted. On every note, I have said, we still have a long road ahead of us because she is still struggling..but she is living happier and that makes me happy. I'm not trying to push anything on anyone, I'm just over the moon with excitement because my daughter doesn't want to die anymore. Everyday she laid in her bed, crying she just wanted to die because of this condition. I just wanted to share my happiness with everyone.Lets continue to talk about ALL the things that helps us cope since we don't have a cure yet. I hope we can do that. To: Soundsensitivity Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2012 2:17 PM Subject: Re: Neurofeedback questions

I would be very cautious about using NBF for misophonia. There are a couple anecdotal reports here but again, this is very much an experiment and I caution everyone to be thoughtful before rushing off to spend $ on sessions that have zero database or history.

The Placebo effect is enormous and directly related to how badly the person wants and needs to improve.

I am quite concerned about this topic and how those with children and teens are responding.

I have tried to keep those who want to 'sell' you therapies out of this group for many reasons, unless they seemed to have a legitimate scientific approach, presented by professionals with clear certification and accepted credentials, etc etc.

It never occured to me that it would arise FROM those here who are members of the group. It probably should have.

I do not want to stymie anyone's effort to obtain help for misophonia. We have so much territory to explore.

But I do not WANT this group to become a neuro bio feedback group, either. There are surely support groups or sites for that focus.

From what I can tell, and it does make me wonder, every one who sells NBF is willing to stick on electrodes to heads, whatever size, and do 'treatments' for something that they do not know about, have never heard of, cannot find any basis for, and cannot provide any hard evidence of long term outcome.

THAT worries me. Not one single provider of this 'service' has contacted me or any other Misophonia professional that I know of....to ask about it, invite collaboration or sharing.

Every week I get calls from audiologists who want to know, what is this, how can I help?

But not a single NBF vendor has ever called me. Why is that?

Marsha , Audiologist

>

>

> Hi,

>

>

>

> First, please excuse my poor English – it is not my mother tongue.

>

>

>

> My 13 years old son suffers from 100% miso symptoms with 24/7 rage when

> he is with us (parents and his sister). He spends his days and nights

> alone in his room. Most (if not all) of the messages in this forum

> describe our life….All of this is accompanied with depression, and

> OCD diagnosis. We have tried 5 different OCD medications, 2 different

> psychological treatments (one was CBT). None of these treatments helped.

>

> He started Neurofeedback, and done 21 sessions of 30 minutes each –

> twice a week. The Neurofeedback therapist says that she sees progress in

> the measured brain waves levels, and that he is close to levels that we

> can expect to see the changes (at least from the aspect of depression

> – they do not have experience with miso…).

>

> I read messages from Clyle, Heidi and Bernadette on Neurofeedback

> progress and success. I wonder if I can ask to get information on

> Neurofeedback treatments that show progress. I think that sharing

> information may help all of us, and I intend to share information in

> case of success (and in failure case as well…)

>

> My questions...:

>

> - What are the protocols of the Neurofeedback treatment – what

> brainwaves are trained? For example – raising the levels of Alpha

> while reducing theta brainwaves levels, training beta, or SMR? These are

> just example, and I would like to get this information in order to share

> it with my son's therapist.

>

> – What is the location of the electrode? – I think that this is

> also important.

>

>

>

>

> I hope that it is OK asking these questions. I asked my son's

> therapist to contact Clyle's practitioner as Clyle suggested. I want

> to get as much information as possible in order to help my son to get

> out of his daily suffering, and back to normal life as he deserves.

>

>

>

> Thank you!

>

> Art

>

[Guest guest]

kathy, i agree 100%. to my knowledge, audiologists have not cured anyone of

misophonia. people who suffer daily are looking for some method that will

provide a " cure " for themselves or their loved ones. cyle has written in detail

about his journey to a cure which involved nf(neurofeedback) sessions for he and

his son. both father and son,as cyle states, have been " cured " of misophonia. we

need more sufferers to begin nf and report back on their nf treatment results.

heidi is another who has reported that she is 75% " cured " after 21 sesions. nf

is the only avenue that has produced these wonderful results to date. i'm so

grateful to clyle and now heidi for reporting their success so others may follow

in their path. my son is 18 and has recently begun neurofeedback for misophonia.

> >

> >

> > Hi,

> >

> >

> >

> > First, please excuse my poor English - it is not my mother tongue.

> >

> >

> >

> > My 13 years old son suffers from 100% miso symptoms with 24/7 rage when

> > he is with us (parents and his sister). He spends his days and nights

> > alone in his room. Most (if not all) of the messages in this forum

> > describe our life..All of this is accompanied with depression, and

> > OCD diagnosis. We have tried 5 different OCD medications, 2 different

> > psychological treatments (one was CBT). None of these treatments helped.

> >

> > He started Neurofeedback, and done 21 sessions of 30 minutes each -

> > twice a week. The Neurofeedback therapist says that she sees progress in

> > the measured brain waves levels, and that he is close to levels that we

> > can expect to see the changes (at least from the aspect of depression

> > - they do not have experience with miso.).

> >

> > I read messages from Clyle, Heidi and Bernadette on Neurofeedback

> > progress and success. I wonder if I can ask to get information on

> > Neurofeedback treatments that show progress. I think that sharing

> > information may help all of us, and I intend to share information in

> > case of success (and in failure case as well.)

> >

> > My questions...:

> >

> > - What are the protocols of the Neurofeedback treatment - what

> > brainwaves are trained? For example - raising the levels of Alpha

> > while reducing theta brainwaves levels, training beta, or SMR? These are

> > just example, and I would like to get this information in order to share

> > it with my son's therapist.

> >

> > - What is the location of the electrode? - I think that this is

> > also important.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > I hope that it is OK asking these questions. I asked my son's

> > therapist to contact Clyle's practitioner as Clyle suggested. I want

> > to get as much information as possible in order to help my son to get

> > out of his daily suffering, and back to normal life as he deserves.

> >

> >

> >

> > Thank you!

> >

> > Art

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Bernadette it sounds like your nfb therapist is a saint! It is wonderful that

she is so flexible and kind.

I have no position on nfb. But I am struck by some of the language people use to

describe their response to nfb. In general it is very hard to articulate what

miso feels like. I think there is a lot of confusion between triggers being

lessened vs reactions being improved. So when people say nfb " helps, " what do

they mean? Sometimes it is hard to tell. Do they mean there are fewer triggers

and it is harder to be triggered? Do they mean they have a milder reaction to

the same triggers? Do they have the same reaction to the same triggers but they

recover more quickly?

Often I don't know what people mean, but it is clear that this issue has come up

before and has caused some misunderstandings and misinterpretations. So is nfb a

treatment or more of a " management " strategy or coping technique, the same way

earplugs or white noise are helpful for some? I don't know but I think this is

worth thinking about.

> >

> >

> > Hi,

> >

> >

> >

> > First, please excuse my poor English †" it is not my mother tongue.

> >

> >

> >

> > My 13 years old son suffers from 100% miso symptoms with 24/7 rage when

> > he is with us (parents and his sister). He spends his days and nights

> > alone in his room. Most (if not all) of the messages in this forum

> > describe our life….All of this is accompanied with depression, and

> > OCD diagnosis. We have tried 5 different OCD medications, 2 different

> > psychological treatments (one was CBT). None of these treatments helped.

> >

> > He started Neurofeedback, and done 21 sessions of 30 minutes each †"

> > twice a week. The Neurofeedback therapist says that she sees progress in

> > the measured brain waves levels, and that he is close to levels that we

> > can expect to see the changes (at least from the aspect of depression

> > †" they do not have experience with miso…).

> >

> > I read messages from Clyle, Heidi and Bernadette on Neurofeedback

> > progress and success. I wonder if I can ask to get information on

> > Neurofeedback treatments that show progress. I think that sharing

> > information may help all of us, and I intend to share information in

> > case of success (and in failure case as well…)

> >

> > My questions...:

> >

> > - What are the protocols of the Neurofeedback treatment †" what

> > brainwaves are trained? For example †" raising the levels of Alpha

> > while reducing theta brainwaves levels, training beta, or SMR? These are

> > just example, and I would like to get this information in order to share

> > it with my son's therapist.

> >

> > †" What is the location of the electrode? †" I think that this is

> > also important.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > I hope that it is OK asking these questions. I asked my son's

> > therapist to contact Clyle's practitioner as Clyle suggested. I want

> > to get as much information as possible in order to help my son to get

> > out of his daily suffering, and back to normal life as he deserves.

> >

> >

> >

> > Thank you!

> >

> > Art

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Bernadette it sounds like your nfb therapist is a saint! It is wonderful that

she is so flexible and kind.

I have no position on nfb. But I am struck by some of the language people use to

describe their response to nfb. In general it is very hard to articulate what

miso feels like. I think there is a lot of confusion between triggers being

lessened vs reactions being improved. So when people say nfb " helps, " what do

they mean? Sometimes it is hard to tell. Do they mean there are fewer triggers

and it is harder to be triggered? Do they mean they have a milder reaction to

the same triggers? Do they have the same reaction to the same triggers but they

recover more quickly?

Often I don't know what people mean, but it is clear that this issue has come up

before and has caused some misunderstandings and misinterpretations. So is nfb a

treatment or more of a " management " strategy or coping technique, the same way

earplugs or white noise are helpful for some? I don't know but I think this is

worth thinking about.

> >

> >

> > Hi,

> >

> >

> >

> > First, please excuse my poor English †" it is not my mother tongue.

> >

> >

> >

> > My 13 years old son suffers from 100% miso symptoms with 24/7 rage when

> > he is with us (parents and his sister). He spends his days and nights

> > alone in his room. Most (if not all) of the messages in this forum

> > describe our life….All of this is accompanied with depression, and

> > OCD diagnosis. We have tried 5 different OCD medications, 2 different

> > psychological treatments (one was CBT). None of these treatments helped.

> >

> > He started Neurofeedback, and done 21 sessions of 30 minutes each †"

> > twice a week. The Neurofeedback therapist says that she sees progress in

> > the measured brain waves levels, and that he is close to levels that we

> > can expect to see the changes (at least from the aspect of depression

> > †" they do not have experience with miso…).

> >

> > I read messages from Clyle, Heidi and Bernadette on Neurofeedback

> > progress and success. I wonder if I can ask to get information on

> > Neurofeedback treatments that show progress. I think that sharing

> > information may help all of us, and I intend to share information in

> > case of success (and in failure case as well…)

> >

> > My questions...:

> >

> > - What are the protocols of the Neurofeedback treatment †" what

> > brainwaves are trained? For example †" raising the levels of Alpha

> > while reducing theta brainwaves levels, training beta, or SMR? These are

> > just example, and I would like to get this information in order to share

> > it with my son's therapist.

> >

> > †" What is the location of the electrode? †" I think that this is

> > also important.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > I hope that it is OK asking these questions. I asked my son's

> > therapist to contact Clyle's practitioner as Clyle suggested. I want

> > to get as much information as possible in order to help my son to get

> > out of his daily suffering, and back to normal life as he deserves.

> >

> >

> >

> > Thank you!

> >

> > Art

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Good question, when I did Brain State I rode back and forth with a friend who has a voice that drives me NUTS!!!!! I felt much better after the treatment but she still irritated me and that didn't change. Im still going to continue the treatments and get some white noise earpiecesSent from my iPad

Bernadette it sounds like your nfb therapist is a saint! It is wonderful that she is so flexible and kind.

I have no position on nfb. But I am struck by some of the language people use to describe their response to nfb. In general it is very hard to articulate what miso feels like. I think there is a lot of confusion between triggers being lessened vs reactions being improved. So when people say nfb "helps," what do they mean? Sometimes it is hard to tell. Do they mean there are fewer triggers and it is harder to be triggered? Do they mean they have a milder reaction to the same triggers? Do they have the same reaction to the same triggers but they recover more quickly?

Often I don't know what people mean, but it is clear that this issue has come up before and has caused some misunderstandings and misinterpretations. So is nfb a treatment or more of a "management" strategy or coping technique, the same way earplugs or white noise are helpful for some? I don't know but I think this is worth thinking about.

> >

> >

> > Hi,

> >

> >

> >

> > First, please excuse my poor English â€" it is not my mother tongue.

> >

> >

> >

> > My 13 years old son suffers from 100% miso symptoms with 24/7 rage when

> > he is with us (parents and his sister). He spends his days and nights

> > alone in his room. Most (if not all) of the messages in this forum

> > describe our life….All of this is accompanied with depression, and

> > OCD diagnosis. We have tried 5 different OCD medications, 2 different

> > psychological treatments (one was CBT). None of these treatments helped.

> >

> > He started Neurofeedback, and done 21 sessions of 30 minutes each â€"

> > twice a week. The Neurofeedback therapist says that she sees progress in

> > the measured brain waves levels, and that he is close to levels that we

> > can expect to see the changes (at least from the aspect of depression

> > â€" they do not have experience with miso…).

> >

> > I read messages from Clyle, Heidi and Bernadette on Neurofeedback

> > progress and success. I wonder if I can ask to get information on

> > Neurofeedback treatments that show progress. I think that sharing

> > information may help all of us, and I intend to share information in

> > case of success (and in failure case as well…)

> >

> > My questions...:

> >

> > - What are the protocols of the Neurofeedback treatment â€" what

> > brainwaves are trained? For example â€" raising the levels of Alpha

> > while reducing theta brainwaves levels, training beta, or SMR? These are

> > just example, and I would like to get this information in order to share

> > it with my son's therapist.

> >

> > â€" What is the location of the electrode? â€" I think that this is

> > also important.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > I hope that it is OK asking these questions. I asked my son's

> > therapist to contact Clyle's practitioner as Clyle suggested. I want

> > to get as much information as possible in order to help my son to get

> > out of his daily suffering, and back to normal life as he deserves.

> >

> >

> >

> > Thank you!

> >

> > Art

> >

>

=

[Guest guest]

Good question, when I did Brain State I rode back and forth with a friend who has a voice that drives me NUTS!!!!! I felt much better after the treatment but she still irritated me and that didn't change. Im still going to continue the treatments and get some white noise earpiecesSent from my iPad

Bernadette it sounds like your nfb therapist is a saint! It is wonderful that she is so flexible and kind.

I have no position on nfb. But I am struck by some of the language people use to describe their response to nfb. In general it is very hard to articulate what miso feels like. I think there is a lot of confusion between triggers being lessened vs reactions being improved. So when people say nfb "helps," what do they mean? Sometimes it is hard to tell. Do they mean there are fewer triggers and it is harder to be triggered? Do they mean they have a milder reaction to the same triggers? Do they have the same reaction to the same triggers but they recover more quickly?

Often I don't know what people mean, but it is clear that this issue has come up before and has caused some misunderstandings and misinterpretations. So is nfb a treatment or more of a "management" strategy or coping technique, the same way earplugs or white noise are helpful for some? I don't know but I think this is worth thinking about.

> >

> >

> > Hi,

> >

> >

> >

> > First, please excuse my poor English â€" it is not my mother tongue.

> >

> >

> >

> > My 13 years old son suffers from 100% miso symptoms with 24/7 rage when

> > he is with us (parents and his sister). He spends his days and nights

> > alone in his room. Most (if not all) of the messages in this forum

> > describe our life….All of this is accompanied with depression, and

> > OCD diagnosis. We have tried 5 different OCD medications, 2 different

> > psychological treatments (one was CBT). None of these treatments helped.

> >

> > He started Neurofeedback, and done 21 sessions of 30 minutes each â€"

> > twice a week. The Neurofeedback therapist says that she sees progress in

> > the measured brain waves levels, and that he is close to levels that we

> > can expect to see the changes (at least from the aspect of depression

> > â€" they do not have experience with miso…).

> >

> > I read messages from Clyle, Heidi and Bernadette on Neurofeedback

> > progress and success. I wonder if I can ask to get information on

> > Neurofeedback treatments that show progress. I think that sharing

> > information may help all of us, and I intend to share information in

> > case of success (and in failure case as well…)

> >

> > My questions...:

> >

> > - What are the protocols of the Neurofeedback treatment â€" what

> > brainwaves are trained? For example â€" raising the levels of Alpha

> > while reducing theta brainwaves levels, training beta, or SMR? These are

> > just example, and I would like to get this information in order to share

> > it with my son's therapist.

> >

> > â€" What is the location of the electrode? â€" I think that this is

> > also important.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > I hope that it is OK asking these questions. I asked my son's

> > therapist to contact Clyle's practitioner as Clyle suggested. I want

> > to get as much information as possible in order to help my son to get

> > out of his daily suffering, and back to normal life as he deserves.

> >

> >

> >

> > Thank you!

> >

> > Art

> >

>

=

[Guest guest]

Yes Kathy. We have a lead and the people that can follow it are doing so and

communicating with the group - and the practitioners are communicating with

each other. We have all asked and answered questions like " Does hypnosis work? "

" Does Proxac work? " " Does CBT work? " " Does psychotherapy work? " and most often

the answer is " no " . So for the people who are blazing a trail, any trail, to

success of any sort - I am grateful.

I presume that NFB practitioners would be more likely to contact each other to

discuss the neurology of it rather than contact an audiologist to discuss . . .

what? I have not seen any results from any audiologically-based treatment. If

I knew of something that was working/helping/alleviating symptoms, I'd happily

go to an audiologist and have that person treat me knowing they would discuss

the protocol with others. But I have heard nothing. I have heard of

chiropractic helping, I've heard of NFB and I've heard of some prescriptions

that can take the edge off. But the only thing I've heard about results of the

new protocol is that the findings will be released at an Aud conference sometime

in the future.

Sorry to be so blunt, but I'm a " show me and prove to me and I'll go read about

it and get back to you " kind of person. I am old enough and cynical enough to

know that most medical professionals know less than I do. I haven't operated

on blind faith in decades.

> >

> >

> > Hi,

> >

> >

> >

> > First, please excuse my poor English - it is not my mother tongue.

> >

> >

> >

> > My 13 years old son suffers from 100% miso symptoms with 24/7 rage when

> > he is with us (parents and his sister). He spends his days and nights

> > alone in his room. Most (if not all) of the messages in this forum

> > describe our life..All of this is accompanied with depression, and

> > OCD diagnosis. We have tried 5 different OCD medications, 2 different

> > psychological treatments (one was CBT). None of these treatments helped.

> >

> > He started Neurofeedback, and done 21 sessions of 30 minutes each -

> > twice a week. The Neurofeedback therapist says that she sees progress in

> > the measured brain waves levels, and that he is close to levels that we

> > can expect to see the changes (at least from the aspect of depression

> > - they do not have experience with miso.).

> >

> > I read messages from Clyle, Heidi and Bernadette on Neurofeedback

> > progress and success. I wonder if I can ask to get information on

> > Neurofeedback treatments that show progress. I think that sharing

> > information may help all of us, and I intend to share information in

> > case of success (and in failure case as well.)

> >

> > My questions...:

> >

> > - What are the protocols of the Neurofeedback treatment - what

> > brainwaves are trained? For example - raising the levels of Alpha

> > while reducing theta brainwaves levels, training beta, or SMR? These are

> > just example, and I would like to get this information in order to share

> > it with my son's therapist.

> >

> > - What is the location of the electrode? - I think that this is

> > also important.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > I hope that it is OK asking these questions. I asked my son's

> > therapist to contact Clyle's practitioner as Clyle suggested. I want

> > to get as much information as possible in order to help my son to get

> > out of his daily suffering, and back to normal life as he deserves.

> >

> >

> >

> > Thank you!

> >

> > Art

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Yes Kathy. We have a lead and the people that can follow it are doing so and

communicating with the group - and the practitioners are communicating with

each other. We have all asked and answered questions like " Does hypnosis work? "

" Does Proxac work? " " Does CBT work? " " Does psychotherapy work? " and most often

the answer is " no " . So for the people who are blazing a trail, any trail, to

success of any sort - I am grateful.

I presume that NFB practitioners would be more likely to contact each other to

discuss the neurology of it rather than contact an audiologist to discuss . . .

what? I have not seen any results from any audiologically-based treatment. If

I knew of something that was working/helping/alleviating symptoms, I'd happily

go to an audiologist and have that person treat me knowing they would discuss

the protocol with others. But I have heard nothing. I have heard of

chiropractic helping, I've heard of NFB and I've heard of some prescriptions

that can take the edge off. But the only thing I've heard about results of the

new protocol is that the findings will be released at an Aud conference sometime

in the future.

Sorry to be so blunt, but I'm a " show me and prove to me and I'll go read about

it and get back to you " kind of person. I am old enough and cynical enough to

know that most medical professionals know less than I do. I haven't operated

on blind faith in decades.

> >

> >

> > Hi,

> >

> >

> >

> > First, please excuse my poor English - it is not my mother tongue.

> >

> >

> >

> > My 13 years old son suffers from 100% miso symptoms with 24/7 rage when

> > he is with us (parents and his sister). He spends his days and nights

> > alone in his room. Most (if not all) of the messages in this forum

> > describe our life..All of this is accompanied with depression, and

> > OCD diagnosis. We have tried 5 different OCD medications, 2 different

> > psychological treatments (one was CBT). None of these treatments helped.

> >

> > He started Neurofeedback, and done 21 sessions of 30 minutes each -

> > twice a week. The Neurofeedback therapist says that she sees progress in

> > the measured brain waves levels, and that he is close to levels that we

> > can expect to see the changes (at least from the aspect of depression

> > - they do not have experience with miso.).

> >

> > I read messages from Clyle, Heidi and Bernadette on Neurofeedback

> > progress and success. I wonder if I can ask to get information on

> > Neurofeedback treatments that show progress. I think that sharing

> > information may help all of us, and I intend to share information in

> > case of success (and in failure case as well.)

> >

> > My questions...:

> >

> > - What are the protocols of the Neurofeedback treatment - what

> > brainwaves are trained? For example - raising the levels of Alpha

> > while reducing theta brainwaves levels, training beta, or SMR? These are

> > just example, and I would like to get this information in order to share

> > it with my son's therapist.

> >

> > - What is the location of the electrode? - I think that this is

> > also important.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > I hope that it is OK asking these questions. I asked my son's

> > therapist to contact Clyle's practitioner as Clyle suggested. I want

> > to get as much information as possible in order to help my son to get

> > out of his daily suffering, and back to normal life as he deserves.

> >

> >

> >

> > Thank you!

> >

> > Art

> >

>

[Guest guest]

The fact of the matter is that every single symptom or disorder that has ever been helped by NFB has always started by a “let’s try it and see” collaboration between a frustrated symptom bearer and a curious practitioner. In fact, the whole field of NFB was started “by accident” when Barry Sterman used, (out of desperation because his test subjects – cats – were dying and he needed more) cats that “shouldn’t have been included” since they had been part of another study. Well, THOSE cats didn’t die. The only difference? They had been trained with NFB for a research (not clinical) study. Hence, the birth of NFB. So if NFB training meant those cats didn’t get seizures when exposed to rocket fuel, could it be that training human brains could make them resistant to seizure when they had to load rocket fuel? If they have left it with “I don’t know, but the experts aren’t convinced” we would have thousands of people still on seizure meds, some dying premature deaths (as still happens with traditional interventions) and so forth. Was it a risk of time/money to take your child to NFB in the EARLY days? Yes, just ask the Othmers (one a PhD physicist and one a PhD level neuroscientist). But their kid got better and they’ve grown the field with methodical clinical studies for over 20 years. Today? No. ADHD – after more than 400,000 documented success cases, including double blind studies written up in major journals and even summarized in Reader’s Digest – the “experts” are still saying there is no proof and “we haven’t seen presentations at our conferences.” What is actually happening is that they are not reading the published research studies, and they are denying multiple requests by various NFB researchers and practitioners to present at their conferences. They get rejections every year from Neurology, Psychiatry, Pediatric conferences, and related fields. It’s a straw man to say there is no research or proof, but this is the regular and repeated position of the “experts.” As for NFB and Misophonia, because NFB is inherently SYMPTOM based, not DIAGNOSIS based, a NFB practitioner has little reason to dialog with a particular expert diagnosis-giver. NFB practitioners are qualified and licensed to give diagnoses, even if it's something they have never heard of and frankly often times medical diagnostics are very limiting. Bottom line, no matter who assigns a diagnosis, the diagnosis doesn’t fix anything, while addressing symptoms as they relate to the brain, there’s a helpful approach. If the brain is involved, then NFB can have an impact. Is it important to know HOW the brain is creating the problem? Absolutely. But a diagnosis alone says nothing about that. Nor has anyone in the world of audiology stated that they know HOW the brain is creating this problem because NO research has been done (other than the Jaserboffs who say it's because we relate a bad event to the trigger, which to me is hogwash). A well described set of symptoms and experiences on the other hand, will go a long way towards pinpointing how a given brain is creating and maintaining a particular set of symptoms. It’s because the NFB practitioners work from the understanding of the BRAIN, not the mind, that they can narrow down the problem and intervene. So with Misophonia, if all those who treat us keep seeing it as a psychosomatic issue, no one is going to make much headway, and a lot of people will remain unhelped. Or hurt, in the case of any “experts” who thinks it prudent to expose suffering people to more of the same auditory harassment and call it “treatment.” Once we describe our symptoms to a NFB practitioner, they can figure out what parts of the brain are involved, and they can intervene because of what they know about the brain. We provide them with very quick input from us about changes (or not) and they can make adjustments moment by moment. They are trained to actually believe what we are telling them, so we are part of our own treatment process. So Dr. , you claim expertise in Misophonia because you started in the area of tinnitus, saw these recurring problems and expanded. Similarly, why can’t NFB providers use the tinnitus research in NFB as a starting point for treating Misophonia? It is entirely inaccurate to say there is no NFB research in this area because there is in fact research in tinnitus using NFB, and there are now case studies with Misophonia. I highly doubted audiologists waited to treat those with tinnitus before double blind research studies were conducted. Same with Misophono, audiologists have had no problem attempting to treat us before any double blind studies have been conducted. As for the Placebo argument, yes a Placebo can be strong, but as several of us have posted previously, it's not always bad if relief is the goal. “Hard research” as you desire Dr. , has conclusively shown that SSRI’s (anti depressant drugs) are 83% placebo. Do you advocate all people stop taking SSRIs? However, given the certain and uncomfortable side effects these drugs carry (and high cost), you’d think maybe we should actually consider whether it’s ethical for the pharmaceuticals to continue to sell these placebos. To try something that may include a partial placebo effect (and I acknowledge this possibility) but has no ongoing negative side effects seems FAR more reasonable to me. You can’t get away from placebo; read the literature. But practitioners can employ it to a our benefit – or you can just sell drugs and let patient suffer the very real side effects as their body chemistry is altered in a very real, non-placebo way. So in the end, why would it even occur to a NFB practitioners to contact audiologists who aren't employing up-to-date brain modeling as a core part of the theory of the disorder? What is it they could tell them that we the patients could not? It appears it would turn into the NFB doctor educating the audiologists about the rich contributions of the neurosciences over the past decade. ly, I would rather have my doctor treat me and talk to other NFB doctors who also want to provide treatment to other Misophonia suffers. We are suffering, we are looking for those who can actually help alleviate that suffering. I and others have an obligation quite frankly to let our fellow Misophonians know about what so far is helping us. We have talked about CBT quite a bit in the past, and Dr. you never once asked why our CBT therapist haven't contacted you. Why would a CBT therapist contact an audiologist though? They wouldn't as their form of treatment, like NFB, is also symptom based. There is no difference, except that NFB has actually helped many of us ELIMINATE, not just mask or cope with triggers. Most of us trying NFB have tried everything the establishment has to offer, and often have tried a variety of other interventions as well (including prescription drugs). So we have experienced standard intervention that hasn’t resolved our disorder. Those that "know" about this disorder have not given us any options that work, and when I say work I mean ELIMINATE the triggers, not mask them or help us cope. So again, why would our NFB doctors contact those in the "know"? I'm not being flippant or argumentative, I'm just being direct, there is simply no reason for them to. I've said this before, Dr. , I appreciate that you brought us all here together and that you have separated yourself from the Jaserboffs who seemingly believe this is all in our heads. However, the evidence strongly is pointing to the fact that our problem is neurological, which you even acknowledge on 20/20, and therefore not auditory at all. So a NFB doctor who is an expert in the neurological workings of our brain is frankly where I want my treatment to lie. NFB is not experimental (there is hard scientific evidence it works for ADD and other disorders), it is not dangerous, it is not new, it is not a threat to us. I really hope it's not considered a threat to the overall well being of this list serv, as our support here is to discuss our problem and how we are coping and what we are trying to fix ourselves. It just so happens that NFB is turning out to be something extremely helpful to those of us who are trying it and we should not be kept from talking about what we always have: our problem, our coping strategies and what we are trying to help with our insufferable problem.Heidi

I would be very cautious about using NBF for misophonia. There are a couple anecdotal reports here but again, this is very much an experiment and I caution everyone to be thoughtful before rushing off to spend $ on sessions that have zero database or history.

The Placebo effect is enormous and directly related to how badly the person wants and needs to improve.

I am quite concerned about this topic and how those with children and teens are responding.

I have tried to keep those who want to 'sell' you therapies out of this group for many reasons, unless they seemed to have a legitimate scientific approach, presented by professionals with clear certification and accepted credentials, etc etc.

It never occured to me that it would arise FROM those here who are members of the group. It probably should have.

I do not want to stymie anyone's effort to obtain help for misophonia. We have so much territory to explore.

But I do not WANT this group to become a neuro bio feedback group, either. There are surely support groups or sites for that focus.

From what I can tell, and it does make me wonder, every one who sells NBF is willing to stick on electrodes to heads, whatever size, and do 'treatments' for something that they do not know about, have never heard of, cannot find any basis for, and cannot provide any hard evidence of long term outcome.

THAT worries me. Not one single provider of this 'service' has contacted me or any other Misophonia professional that I know of....to ask about it, invite collaboration or sharing.

Every week I get calls from audiologists who want to know, what is this, how can I help?

But not a single NBF vendor has ever called me. Why is that?

Marsha , Audiologist

>

>

> Hi,

>

>

>

> First, please excuse my poor English – it is not my mother tongue.

>

>

>

> My 13 years old son suffers from 100% miso symptoms with 24/7 rage when

> he is with us (parents and his sister). He spends his days and nights

> alone in his room. Most (if not all) of the messages in this forum

> describe our life….All of this is accompanied with depression, and

> OCD diagnosis. We have tried 5 different OCD medications, 2 different

> psychological treatments (one was CBT). None of these treatments helped.

>

> He started Neurofeedback, and done 21 sessions of 30 minutes each –

> twice a week. The Neurofeedback therapist says that she sees progress in

> the measured brain waves levels, and that he is close to levels that we

> can expect to see the changes (at least from the aspect of depression

> – they do not have experience with miso…).

>

> I read messages from Clyle, Heidi and Bernadette on Neurofeedback

> progress and success. I wonder if I can ask to get information on

> Neurofeedback treatments that show progress. I think that sharing

> information may help all of us, and I intend to share information in

> case of success (and in failure case as well…)

>

> My questions...:

>

> - What are the protocols of the Neurofeedback treatment – what

> brainwaves are trained? For example – raising the levels of Alpha

> while reducing theta brainwaves levels, training beta, or SMR? These are

> just example, and I would like to get this information in order to share

> it with my son's therapist.

>

> – What is the location of the electrode? – I think that this is

> also important.

>

>

>

>

> I hope that it is OK asking these questions. I asked my son's

> therapist to contact Clyle's practitioner as Clyle suggested. I want

> to get as much information as possible in order to help my son to get

> out of his daily suffering, and back to normal life as he deserves.

>

>

>

> Thank you!

>

> Art

>

Gorgeous, youthful skin is waiting for you. Real science. Real results.www.heidisalerno.nerium.com

[Guest guest]

Thank you for this post.

I would be very cautious about using NBF for misophonia. There are a couple anecdotal reports here but again, this is very much an experiment and I caution everyone to be thoughtful before rushing off to spend $ on sessions that have zero database or history.

The Placebo effect is enormous and directly related to how badly the person wants and needs to improve.

I am quite concerned about this topic and how those with children and teens are responding.

I have tried to keep those who want to 'sell' you therapies out of this group for many reasons, unless they seemed to have a legitimate scientific approach, presented by professionals with clear certification and accepted credentials, etc etc.

It never occured to me that it would arise FROM those here who are members of the group. It probably should have.

I do not want to stymie anyone's effort to obtain help for misophonia. We have so much territory to explore.

But I do not WANT this group to become a neuro bio feedback group, either. There are surely support groups or sites for that focus.

From what I can tell, and it does make me wonder, every one who sells NBF is willing to stick on electrodes to heads, whatever size, and do 'treatments' for something that they do not know about, have never heard of, cannot find any basis for, and cannot provide any hard evidence of long term outcome.

THAT worries me. Not one single provider of this 'service' has contacted me or any other Misophonia professional that I know of....to ask about it, invite collaboration or sharing.

Every week I get calls from audiologists who want to know, what is this, how can I help?

But not a single NBF vendor has ever called me. Why is that?

Marsha , Audiologist

>

>

> Hi,

>

>

>

> First, please excuse my poor English – it is not my mother tongue.

>

>

>

> My 13 years old son suffers from 100% miso symptoms with 24/7 rage when

> he is with us (parents and his sister). He spends his days and nights

> alone in his room. Most (if not all) of the messages in this forum

> describe our life….All of this is accompanied with depression, and

> OCD diagnosis. We have tried 5 different OCD medications, 2 different

> psychological treatments (one was CBT). None of these treatments helped.

>

> He started Neurofeedback, and done 21 sessions of 30 minutes each –

> twice a week. The Neurofeedback therapist says that she sees progress in

> the measured brain waves levels, and that he is close to levels that we

> can expect to see the changes (at least from the aspect of depression

> – they do not have experience with miso…).

>

> I read messages from Clyle, Heidi and Bernadette on Neurofeedback

> progress and success. I wonder if I can ask to get information on

> Neurofeedback treatments that show progress. I think that sharing

> information may help all of us, and I intend to share information in

> case of success (and in failure case as well…)

>

> My questions...:

>

> - What are the protocols of the Neurofeedback treatment – what

> brainwaves are trained? For example – raising the levels of Alpha

> while reducing theta brainwaves levels, training beta, or SMR? These are

> just example, and I would like to get this information in order to share

> it with my son's therapist.

>

> – What is the location of the electrode? – I think that this is

> also important.

>

>

>

>

> I hope that it is OK asking these questions. I asked my son's

> therapist to contact Clyle's practitioner as Clyle suggested. I want

> to get as much information as possible in order to help my son to get

> out of his daily suffering, and back to normal life as he deserves.

>

>

>

> Thank you!

>

> Art

>

Gorgeous, youthful skin is waiting for you. Real science. Real results.www.heidisalerno.nerium.com

[Guest guest]

I am sorry but I did not disrespect Mr. Rothman. I did speak to him and told

him that at this point I was keeping my eyes open and being careful about

admittance. I also rec'd a call from someone from Texas who provided some

similar therapy and she did not have any credentials to speak of when I checked

her out.

The purpose of this group is to welcome members who have misophonia. That

should be the main focus, I believe, at this point. If Dr. Rothman feels that

he should participate in a group, he is welcome to join our public forum, anyone

can join that group and post and so on.

I am very sorry he felt that I was not respectful of his position, etc. etc., as

I tried hard to be clear about who is in this group and who is not. To date,

those with miso/4S are here.

MJ

>

> > I would be very cautious about using NBF for misophonia. There are a couple

anecdotal reports here but again, this is very much an experiment and I caution

everyone to be thoughtful before rushing off to spend $ on sessions that have

zero database or history.

> >

> > The Placebo effect is enormous and directly related to how badly the person

wants and needs to improve.

> >

> > I am quite concerned about this topic and how those with children and teens

are responding.

> >

> > I have tried to keep those who want to 'sell' you therapies out of this

group for many reasons, unless they seemed to have a legitimate scientific

approach, presented by professionals with clear certification and accepted

credentials, etc etc.

> >

> > It never occured to me that it would arise FROM those here who are members

of the group. It probably should have.

> >

> > I do not want to stymie anyone's effort to obtain help for misophonia. We

have so much territory to explore.

> >

> > But I do not WANT this group to become a neuro bio feedback group, either.

There are surely support groups or sites for that focus.

> >

> > From what I can tell, and it does make me wonder, every one who sells NBF is

willing to stick on electrodes to heads, whatever size, and do 'treatments' for

something that they do not know about, have never heard of, cannot find any

basis for, and cannot provide any hard evidence of long term outcome.

> >

> > THAT worries me. Not one single provider of this 'service' has contacted me

or any other Misophonia professional that I know of....to ask about it, invite

collaboration or sharing.

> >

> > Every week I get calls from audiologists who want to know, what is this, how

can I help?

> >

> > But not a single NBF vendor has ever called me. Why is that?

> >

> > Marsha , Audiologist

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Adah, I agree with you.

When I gathered 11 atudiologists together to provide the Misophonia Management

Program, we agreed to spend a year collecting data and then publishing out work.

We are meeting July 25th, and will end our year in September 2012. Then I can

bring the results to the public.

I don't think it does anyone a favor, in the long run, to go case by case and to

avoid a research point of view, where we do short and long term study.

We must know, with follow up at six month, 1 year, 3 years, etc. how these

therapy approaches work. That way, we can eliminate the placebo effects.

MJ

> > >

> > >

> > > Hi,

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > First, please excuse my poor English - it is not my mother tongue.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > My 13 years old son suffers from 100% miso symptoms with 24/7 rage when

> > > he is with us (parents and his sister). He spends his days and nights

> > > alone in his room. Most (if not all) of the messages in this forum

> > > describe our life..All of this is accompanied with depression, and

> > > OCD diagnosis. We have tried 5 different OCD medications, 2 different

> > > psychological treatments (one was CBT). None of these treatments helped.

> > >

> > > He started Neurofeedback, and done 21 sessions of 30 minutes each -

> > > twice a week. The Neurofeedback therapist says that she sees progress in

> > > the measured brain waves levels, and that he is close to levels that we

> > > can expect to see the changes (at least from the aspect of depression

> > > - they do not have experience with miso.).

> > >

> > > I read messages from Clyle, Heidi and Bernadette on Neurofeedback

> > > progress and success. I wonder if I can ask to get information on

> > > Neurofeedback treatments that show progress. I think that sharing

> > > information may help all of us, and I intend to share information in

> > > case of success (and in failure case as well.)

> > >

> > > My questions...:

> > >

> > > - What are the protocols of the Neurofeedback treatment - what

> > > brainwaves are trained? For example - raising the levels of Alpha

> > > while reducing theta brainwaves levels, training beta, or SMR? These are

> > > just example, and I would like to get this information in order to share

> > > it with my son's therapist.

> > >

> > > - What is the location of the electrode? - I think that this is

> > > also important.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > I hope that it is OK asking these questions. I asked my son's

> > > therapist to contact Clyle's practitioner as Clyle suggested. I want

> > > to get as much information as possible in order to help my son to get

> > > out of his daily suffering, and back to normal life as he deserves.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Thank you!

> > >

> > > Art

> > >

> >

>