Methotrexate

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

it seemed absolutely fine, the patient had tincture 1:10, 10-20 ml per week (I

think tincture is absorbed better, but capsules should be fine, too). She came

off the methotrexate according to the consultant's instructions, I remember it

was very gradual, but can't remember the exact timing.

Medical Herbalist wrote:

Hi

Thank you, that is interesting.

You found propolis ok to use alongside the Methotrexate?

how did you give it, tincture?

Thanks Sabine also for your reply :-)

many thanks

anna newton wrote:

>

> Hi ,

> I have worked with a patient coming off methotrexate (for RA) - which

> took about 6 months I think, at which point the herbs took over and

> the patient has been doing fine ever since. My reasoning for herb

> choice was simple: no licorice until the adrenals are working back

> properly and no immune modulating herbs until methotrexate is

> finished. I used Kerry Bone approach matched to the patients

> circumstances. I used borage as adrenal support to begin with, lots of

> anti-inflammatories and lots of nervines, plus propolis as a wide

> spectrum treatment for a primary lesion, I also treated gut and

> changed the patients diet.

> Hope it helps

>

>

>

>

> Medical Herbalist <andrea@...

> <mailto:andrea%40sussexherbalist.co.uk>> wrote:

> Hello All!

>

> I have an enquiry from a chap with RA who is on Methotrexate, I have

> treated RA before but only patients who have chosen to come to me first

> before 'going down the Methotrexate route'

> Obviously my Herbal Medicine approach is going to be different this

> time, I wonder if anybody has experience of working with RA alongside

> Methotrexate, if so I would appreciate any advice.

> Also, does anyone have a good source of the Vitamin D3 please?

>

> many thanks

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Question on that... Would it be contraindicated to give folic acid supplements

--is this somehow a targeted action to cause the immunosuppression and other

desired action ('desired' by the treating MD's)? Would supplementation

counteract the conventional treatment at all? I've always been curious about

that... or if folic acid inhibition is just a side-effect...?? Thoughts,

anyone?

Tami

NJ USA

methotrexate

[Guest guest]

I had a patient with RA on methotrexate who was also prescribed folic acid by

her consultant so it would seem the effect on folic acid is more of a side

effect than a desired action ( unfortunately my patient then went on to develop

a brain tumour ....)

regards ,annette

[Guest guest]

Do you have drug commercials on television in the UK...? Well, I have listened

to the side effect disclosure at the end of the commercial that describes " rare

cancers " developing from the use of certain RA drugs. I wonder if that was the

case with your patient, Annette...?? Thanks for the perspective on folic

acid... that is most helpful... xxTami

Re: methotrexate

I had a patient with RA on methotrexate who was also prescribed folic acid by

her consultant so it would seem the effect on folic acid is more of a side

effect than a desired action ( unfortunately my patient then went on to develop

a brain tumour ....)

regards ,annette

[Guest guest]

You'd think that chemo --if used to treat cancer-- would not cause it... But it

would seem it kills certain cancers while causing depletions that cause others

to crop up, right? So, while it may act to kill some cells, the deficiencies

contribute to other disease. Lovely.

Thanks for the perspective... so, we end up chasing it, yes? xxTami

Re: methotrexate

>

> I had a patient with RA on methotrexate who was also prescribed folic

> acid by her consultant so it would seem the effect on folic acid is

> more of a side effect than a desired action ( unfortunately my patient

> then went on to develop a brain tumour ....)

> regards ,annette

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Tami,

As methotrexate is essentially a chemotherapy drug, in common with all

drugs of that group cancer is a possible effect.

Regards,

Gascoigne

Email: mailto:drgascoigne@...

Web: http://www.drgascoigne.com

Tami wrote:

>

> Do you have drug commercials on television in the UK...? Well, I have

> listened to the side effect disclosure at the end of the commercial

> that describes " rare cancers " developing from the use of certain RA

> drugs. I wonder if that was the case with your patient, Annette...??

> Thanks for the perspective on folic acid... that is most helpful... xxTami

>

> Re: methotrexate

>

> I had a patient with RA on methotrexate who was also prescribed folic

> acid by her consultant so it would seem the effect on folic acid is

> more of a side effect than a desired action ( unfortunately my patient

> then went on to develop a brain tumour ....)

> regards ,annette

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Tami,

Chemotherapy cells kill all cells - so is particularly is dangerous for

cells which grow rapidly - the immune system and white blood cells being

especially vulnerable. So, generally people who have chemotherapy do

less well than those who don't. Treating the whole person, of course, is

much more successful! Conventional medicine does not get it - the

pre-existing susceptibility or vulnerability is what has to be

addressed. Chemo, of course, makes pre-existing vulnerabilities worse.

Regards,

Email: mailto:drgascoigne@...

Web: http://www.drgascoigne.com

Tami wrote:

>

> You'd think that chemo --if used to treat cancer-- would not cause

> it... But it would seem it kills certain cancers while causing

> depletions that cause others to crop up, right? So, while it may act

> to kill some cells, the deficiencies contribute to other disease. Lovely.

> Thanks for the perspective... so, we end up chasing it, yes? xxTami

>

> Re: methotrexate

> >

> > I had a patient with RA on methotrexate who was also prescribed folic

> > acid by her consultant so it would seem the effect on folic acid is

> > more of a side effect than a desired action ( unfortunately my patient

> > then went on to develop a brain tumour ....)

> > regards ,annette

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Hi Tami

it was always my suspicion that sadly her rare, inoperable form of cancer was as

a result of this use of a chemotherapeutic agent - her immune system already

being " out of kilter " with the RA anyway

regards ,annette

[Guest guest]

Hi

Chanchal Cabrera's notes on treating and preventing cancer have a section on

methotrexate that may be applicable. The notes say (among other things):

that it stresses the kidneys and that proper hydration and alkaline diet

essential

very hard on the liver

antagonises folic acid

potentiated by glutamine and vit A

helpful herbs are Curcuma, Carduus, Glycyrrhiza, Parietaria, Alchemilla

arvensis, Polygonum multiflorum

Helen Duxbury

methotrexate

Hello All!

I have an enquiry from a chap with RA who is on Methotrexate, I have

treated RA before but only patients who have chosen to come to me first

before 'going down the Methotrexate route'

Obviously my Herbal Medicine approach is going to be different this

time, I wonder if anybody has experience of working with RA alongside

Methotrexate, if so I would appreciate any advice.

Also, does anyone have a good source of the Vitamin D3 please?

many thanks

[Guest guest]

>

> Dear Helen,

Are these notes (Chancal Cabrera's) available?

I have seen a new pt. today who has severe RA mainly in knees and

wrists. Sudden onset 6 years ago (she is now only 29). She reacted

badly to oral mtx, with weight loss (which went down to 6 stones).

Then put on sulphalazine, but after 2 years developped lupus

antibodies so has been in i.v. mtx since. But is now going to be put

on Rituximab (a monoclonal antibody) to work with mtx. So, all in

all, an enormous assault on her immune system.

All the postings on mtx have been so helpful, but I am wondering how

much I can do for someone on such a cocktail? Antiinflammatories,

yes but her adrenals really need attention too as her flare-ups co-

incide with periods of extra stress.

(btw, she is prescribed folic acid - 5mg per day.)

thanks for any thoughts, ideas, suggestions

Anne

[Guest guest]

Yes, afaik, it's the targeted action when used as for chemotherapy, but when

used for RA or IBD it's a side effect - i.e. foliate supplementation doesn't

seem to affect efficacy of the drug.

best wishes

Sabine

Re: methotrexate

> Question on that... Would it be contraindicated to give folic acid

supplements --is this somehow a targeted action to cause the

immunosuppression and other desired action ('desired' by the treating MD's)?

Would supplementation counteract the conventional treatment at all? I've

always been curious about that... or if folic acid inhibition is just a

side-effect...?? Thoughts, anyone?

> Tami

> NJ USA

[Guest guest]

Hi anne,I am so sorry your son is suffering so.I am on MTX shots once a

week.When I was on Pred.my doc lowered it 1/2 mg a week,or sometimes two weeks

depending on how I felt.I was on it for 7 years.I did try the MTX pills,but got

very nauseated,so went to the shots with no nausea!Eventually the MTX stopped

working by itself and they added Enbrel shots twice a week.I haven't had an all

out flare since I started on the combo.I will still sometimes get a rash or sore

throat,but these things only happen by themselves,so I feel the meds are working

well.I do agree going to a university hosp. or Clinic is a good idea.I went to

the University of Michigan where they can diagnose faster and they gave me every

test under the sun.That was early in my illness.I have had it since 1992.Just

keep up the fight and you are right,he's your baby and you will do what you

think is best.

love Elly

[Guest guest]

Hi All

Well first dose was taken on Monday, It knocked me for 6, I slept all day when i

did wake in the evening I felt so sick, Lucky for me I wasn't and slept all

night as well.

Tues was the first day I haven't slept through the day, maybe because i'd slept

so much the day before, I still had waves of sickness but nothing like the day

before.

Today I have not slept but i am a little tired and joints are a little sore and

aching, I am felling almost human again no waves of sickness today, I have also

dropped to 15mg steroids.

I really don't think the horried wet cold weather is helping. Does any one know

how long it takes until the MTX kicks in and starts to make me feel human again?

Thanks to Marty,Steve,Joan,Allie,Elly,Larry and Liz and to everyone else who has

advised me though this flare.

Rach xx

P.S Elly I have not forgotten about the Tree I just need to get on top of this

and then i will be back with a passion xxx

[Guest guest]

Hey ,

 

I think the time it takes to notice an effect tends to vary as well.  My

experience is that, when coupled with prednisone, Ive generally been able to

decrease the prednisone pretty quickly after starting the MTX.  It sounds like

you may be seeing something similar, but proceed with caution at lesat for now.

 

What I have seen myself and heard from others is that MTX generally takes a few

weeks up to two months to start having a major impact.  I believe it tends to be

more on the slower end when taking the oral dosage vs injection.  I would

generally guess that you should be feeling some positive effects within a month

of time, and hopefully sooner.

As for the fatigue, I think (hope!!) that will subside as your body adjusts, but

dont forget to drink tons of water and I would also still stronly recommend both

the folic acid supplement as well as some solid multivitamins every day.

 

Take Care,

Ken

Subject: Methotrexate

To: Stillsdisease

Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2009, 9:32 AM

 

Hi All

Well first dose was taken on Monday, It knocked me for 6, I slept all day when i

did wake in the evening I felt so sick, Lucky for me I wasn't and slept all

night as well.

Tues was the first day I haven't slept through the day, maybe because i'd slept

so much the day before, I still had waves of sickness but nothing like the day

before.

Today I have not slept but i am a little tired and joints are a little sore and

aching, I am felling almost human again no waves of sickness today, I have also

dropped to 15mg steroids.

I really don't think the horried wet cold weather is helping. Does any one know

how long it takes until the MTX kicks in and starts to make me feel human again?

Thanks to Marty,Steve, Joan,Allie, Elly,Larry and Liz and to everyone else who

has advised me though this flare.

Rach xx

P.S Elly I have not forgotten about the Tree I just need to get on top of this

and then i will be back with a passion xxx

[Guest guest]

Morning .....I wish that I was able to help with your dilemma, but when

my daughter used Methotrexate she had absolutely no reaction whatsoever. Mind

you, my daughter was 14 when she used it. It also did not help her. Each

patient tends to have a slightly different reaction. Could your joint issues be

related to your taper of Prednisone? Do you use any other type of med to

relieve your flare symptoms? I know that many eat first before their shot or

take it prior to bedtime.

Take good care,

Methotrexate

Hi All

Well first dose was taken on Monday, It knocked me for 6, I slept all day when i

did wake in the evening I felt so sick, Lucky for me I wasn't and slept all

night as well.

[Guest guest]

Hi

Good Afternoon to you lol it's great the time difference,

My joints are bad at the moment and is is the first day of reduction on the

Prendnisone that i take in water I started on 40mg in tablet form and reducing 5

mg each week, but when I went to see the specialist (I was on 25 mg) he gave me

the disolving ones as they get into the system quicker.

I think if they my joints are like this on Friday I will increase it back again

to 20mg, the doctor told me I could do this. I am taking the MTX in tablet form,

but a few people have said to take it at night which is a good idea, I needed to

see if it would or how it effected me before I took on that tip. I did take it

with Milk.

I have solphadol for the pain and I take something for my stomach lining with my

Prendnison oh and Folic Acid and Multivitamins but nothing else.

I am trying to change the Solphadol as I know it is not a great drug to have,

that will be my next question when i see the specialist.

Hope you are all well and hope you have a better days weather that we have had

here in the UK (cold,wet and yucky)

Rach x

>

>

> Morning .....>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Kate,

How you feeling, I have been waiting to hear from you as you were not very well

the last time we spoke and didn't want to bug you.

Another Still's patient in Yorkshire WOW, I have been talking to Steve who is in

Burnley and I thought he was close. Please pass on my info, would love to chat

to them. You should get them on this site.

The only problem with planning the MTX around my diary is that I do not have a

day when I do nothing lol, With the 2 rug rats I do something every day, they

have been with my parents this week so I can get my head around what is going

on, but next week they will be back and I will have to suck it and see..But I

know my parents will muck in again if I need them to.

I think the night time thing is the best, I wanted to know how I reacted first,

a lot of people have said to do it at night, I will ask about anti Sickness

drugs good idea, I wasn't sick I have just felt like I was going to be.

I am so glad I am normal lol well as normal as I can be lol I really don't think

the weather is helping with the old joints and aching, they are still swollen

but not as bad as they have been.

How are you doing any way? Are you over the worst?

Rach xxxxxx

>

>

> Hi ,

>

> That all sounds quite normal!!

[Guest guest]

,

The feeling sick only happened to me on the first dose. The 2nd and 3rd

(this week) I've not felt sick at all, so I'd wait and see what happens on

your 2nd dose.

You are only taking Folic Acid once a week, is that right? I take it every

day apart from Monday. Tuesday being the day I take the prescribed 5mg FA

and the other days taking some that I purchased myself.

Steve

From: Stillsdisease [mailto:Stillsdisease ]

On Behalf Of

Sent: 04 November 2009 16:53

To: Stillsdisease

Subject: Re: Methotrexate

Hi Kate,

How you feeling, I have been waiting to hear from you as you were not very

well the last time we spoke and didn't want to bug you.

Another Still's patient in Yorkshire WOW, I have been talking to Steve who

is in Burnley and I thought he was close. Please pass on my info, would love

to chat to them. You should get them on this site.

The only problem with planning the MTX around my diary is that I do not have

a day when I do nothing lol, With the 2 rug rats I do something every day,

they have been with my parents this week so I can get my head around what is

going on, but next week they will be back and I will have to suck it and

see..But I know my parents will muck in again if I need them to.

I think the night time thing is the best, I wanted to know how I reacted

first, a lot of people have said to do it at night, I will ask about anti

Sickness drugs good idea, I wasn't sick I have just felt like I was going to

be.

I am so glad I am normal lol well as normal as I can be lol I really don't

think the weather is helping with the old joints and aching, they are still

swollen but not as bad as they have been.

How are you doing any way? Are you over the worst?

Rach xxxxxx

>

>

> Hi ,

>

> That all sounds quite normal!!

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