Re: PSA testing on hormone blockage

[Guest guest]

I posted my comments to the group, on 26th. July,in response to several statements by Mark on the lines "Taking a PSA of a person on hormone blockingmakes no sense whatsoever. It's a ridiculous waste of resources."

- I cannot agree.

I should have prefaced my remarks by saying that I am currently on a variation of a Royal Marsden protocol of intermittent hormone blockage using 28day Zoladex injections during the "on" periods..

At 75 yrs., impotence is not a major factor in Q of L. and there are, so far, no symptomatic evidence of the cancer affecting other parts of the body.

My PCa is still androgen dependant.

As I understand it, the Royal Marsden protocol calls for monthly blood samples for PSA, T and LH.

While agreeing in general to this protocol, my Consultant Urologist suggested monitoring PSA alone, as all future decisions would be taken on PSA readings alone.

Inchley suggested that monitoring T and LH was also useful as there were several benefits from establishing the relationship between PSA and T and LH both while "on" HB and when "off" HB ( some of which I mentioned in my post)

My GP agreed to these extra tests when there was movement of PSA, but cutting the frequency of blood samples to 84 days when the PSA reading was fairly stable. My GP also routinely checks liver and kidney condition.

I graph these results and find they give may a better insight as to what is happening than PSA alone and will give me a warning when the present pattern is being broken.

I did not say, and did not mean to imply that Testosterone causes PCa. It may have been better to have said simply that so far, there was a direct relationship of rising PSA with rising T and falling PSA with falling T.

As I says no one knows what causes PCa.

I have read the Leibowitz paper and am aware of the biphasal T /PSA effect and the apparently curative effects of high levels of T. However in my case we are only considering low to normal T levels. As long as my PSA is androgen dependant I am content to continue with a HB routine.

G.

(PS I apologise for not giving my previous post a title)

Re:

> , what you say CANNOT BE JUSTIFIED.> > > If the prostate is cancerous however, the cancer feeds on the T and> multiplies and the PSA in the blood stream> > UNLESS you provide supporting evidence that your T level was abnormal.- - - - - - - - - - -> >

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the reassurance, Sammy, that I am generally on the right lines.

I certainly have no intention of cutting any of the present monthly

readings of PSA, T, LH and liver and kidney condition.

Considering the fight I had to have T and LH added to the PSA evaluations I

cannot see my getting E, DHT, FSH, SHBG, and prolactin added too.

Especially as I do not have sufficient knowledge to make I case for this.

With T and LH I could at least point out that this was standard practice at

the Royal Marsden for some Intermittent HB routines and give some examples

of what these readings could indicate.

I accidentally deleted the post but someone commented that at 75 I should

still have an active sex life. What I did in fact say was that " At 75 yrs.,

impotence is not a " major " factor in Q of L. Although I was fairly active

when Dx some 6years ago, long term HB minimises the libido as well as making

you impotent so you do not miss it the same. I did enquire about Viagra but

my GP would not prescribe it for me because of my heart condition. - sorry I

lost the post so I could not reply directly to the sender.

I would be pleased to hear from anyone who has read your paper to learn if

it would be relevant to my case.

Thanks and Regards

G

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> > , what you say CANNOT BE JUSTIFIED.

> >

> > > If the prostate is cancerous however, the cancer feeds on the T and

> > multiplies and the PSA in the blood stream

> >

> > UNLESS you provide supporting evidence that your T level was

> abnormal.- - - - - - - - - - -

> >

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[Guest guest]

Sammy

Impotence

Thanks for the details of R and P. As I said, impotence is not a major

factor in my Qof L and my wife and I are content to do without physical sex

now. This is made easier by the loss of libido resulting from a long term

on Zoladex.

The information you provide may however be very useful to others in the

group who are fighting ED.

Treatment

I know you will say I am burying my head in the sand but I will be

continuing with intermittent HB on the basis of a variation of a Royal

Marsden protocol.

As long as there is movement of PSA, up or down, I will graph monthly

readings of PSA, T and LH. while both " on " and " off " HB.

If the PSA levels out for an appreciable period I may reduce the frequency

of blood samples to three monthly.

The next crisis will be when either there is symptomatic evidence of

metastases or the PCa becomes hormone independent / refractory. I Will then

see my consultant urologist/oncologist.

From previous discussions with these consultants, the options they are

likely to offer when the PCa becomes hormone independent are:

a) Total HB instead of Zoladex alone

An alternative HB to Zoladex

c) Limited radiotherapy plus some form of HB

d) Chemotherapy.

e) Any other treatment which may be better than these which may come to

light in the meantime.

In the meantime I will try to learn a little about other possible

alternatives.

Thanks for your help.

G.

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> > > > , what you say CANNOT BE JUSTIFIED.

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> > > > > If the prostate is cancerous however, the cancer feeds on the T

and

> > > > multiplies and the PSA in the blood stream

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> > > > UNLESS you provide supporting evidence that your T level was

> > > abnormal.- - - - - - - - - - -

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[Guest guest]

Thanks for the clarification , you are on the right track. However,

before you cut any readings on the 'assumption' by any doctor that they will

not provide greater information, it would be interesting to know the time

scale of the ON/OFF periods in the protocol. I feel it is wise to get

monthly E, T, DHT, FSH, LH, SHBG, prolactin as well as PSA. both ON and OFF

cycle. All these are interrelated and the doctors for sure have not cornered

the market on understanding their relevance.

[G] you say:

> As Inchley says no one knows what causes PCa.

** I have to disagree with that statement !! **

It is time to take this mythical bullcrap by the ears and swing it out of

the arena. PCa is caused by physiologically low levels of T and DHT and

raised levels of E. Look at the LEF Male Hormone Protocol for the background

to this. Unfortunately after describing the conditions that cause PC, that

paper stops dead, where PC problems really begin.

To fill the gap, I have written a paper which is available to anyone to

review for the cost of a postage stamp + printing the paper out. I send a

hard copy to prevent 'losing' over the Internet. If you want to understand

what PC is doing then read that paper. Several people on the group have read

the paper, maybe one or two of them could chip in to say how relevant the

material is to the present discussion.

As for the guy who took a mega dose of saw palmetto and propecia for hair

removal and then experienced prostate problems, this is a CLASSIC CASE of

low dose androgen causing a spike in prostate growth. The section on

Hormesis covers this, with graphs to show the biphasic effect of both T and

DHT linked in with actual amounts used in research studies. If

xrougesquadronxx gets the blood tests I mention

above and then works on normalising their values GRADUALLY. I believe he

will greatly ameliorate his prostate problem. He would probably do best to

consult a TCM doctor because of his young age and the potential

complications that could rise if he goes on to conventional therapy for

prostate problems (more of the same androgen block is not going to help

him).

Sammy.

Re:

> , what you say CANNOT BE JUSTIFIED.

>

> > If the prostate is cancerous however, the cancer feeds on the T and

> multiplies and the PSA in the blood stream

>

> UNLESS you provide supporting evidence that your T level was

abnormal.- - - - - - - - - - -

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

As I mentioned the paper, I should also say everyone in receipt of it has

promised to " not disclose to 3rd parties " . That means they can say it is OK

/ crap whatever .. but not disclose the contents as that compromises my

copyright and intellectual property (such as it is) and until I get the

thing published I am dependent on their honesty not to disclose.

My paper as it stands will give to you good reason for adding E, and DHT

readings to your list, as well as prolactin and SHBG. If you go to the web

site prostateman.org I have listed five sections. For the benefit of those

readers with a copy more than one month old, these sections have been there

since I began distributing the paper for review, no substantive content has

changed. I have just changed the section headings. If you click on the

relevant section on the web page it will show you where I have inserted a

heading in the text. If you have an 'old copy' you can simply use a hi-lite

pen to mark where the new heading goes.

, you may find a combination of Rogetine and Papaverine useful for

combating ED. This is Rx only and available from the larger outlets such as

Boots, or maybe the hospital pharmacy that you attend. You need to get the

doc to Rx 5 phials of each

Rogetine = Phentolamine 10mg in 1 ml ampoule x 5 by Alliance Pharmaceuticals

Chippenham Wilts. 0.1 ml as directed

Papaverine = Papaverine Hydrochloride 60 mg in 2ml ampoule x 5 dale

Pharmaceuticals Romford Essex. 1.0 ml as directed.

You need to mix 0.1 ml of Rogetine with 1.0 ml Papaverine in a fine bore

syringe and inject laterally in the corpus cavernosum, just like the

Caverject injections. Best to get an andrologist to show you how to do this

if you have not had Caverject. BTW R+P does not 'sting' like Caverject, much

gentler and very effective!

Cheers,

Sammy.

Re:

> >

> >

> > > , what you say CANNOT BE JUSTIFIED.

> > >

> > > > If the prostate is cancerous however, the cancer feeds on the T and

> > > multiplies and the PSA in the blood stream

> > >

> > > UNLESS you provide supporting evidence that your T level was

> > abnormal.- - - - - - - - - - -

> > >

> > >

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