Re: herb/drug interactions

[Guest guest]

Hi,

I've written a few comments below. I would point out that herbalists

prescribe herbs following a proper consultation and use good quality

extracts at therapeutic doses. This is not the same as people self

medicating using OTC remedies. I would also stress that herbalists are

equally concerned about public safety and support the move towards

regulation. Don't get into being tested by this rather patronizing

individual. He's not interested in the interactions of hawthorn, just

looking for an excuse to criticize your knowledge. If he really wants

info, there's plenty of sources available.

Ãine Marie

> Hi All,

>

> got myself into a stupid argument with a medic on an internet chat

> site as to the value of herbal medicine. I'm feeling all defensive

> and edgy and he's pressed my buttons which is couding my thinking.

> Below is his post - any suggestions for a good response (I admit -

> since I've not been practising much and not treating anyone on

> perscription/OTC drugs I havn't kept up to date with recent

> developments reagrding interactions)?

>

> Thanks,

>

> St 's Wort is indeed used instead of other antidepressants

> however it has a massive list of interaciotns some of them possibly

> fatal such as Digoxin, Immunosuppressives, Indinavir and other

> protease inhibitors, Theophylline, Warfarin, and erious such as

> delirium with Loperamide.

Many orthodox drugs also interact with other drugs but this (of course)

does not preclude their use. Before prescribing any herbs (including

St. 's wort) Medical herbalists take detailed case histories which

include details of all other medications that the individual is taking.

>

> As most patients don't regard these as medications they are likley

> to take them with their Rx drugs and even one off drugs such as

> loperimide which can be bought OTC.

>

> Hospital admissions for adverse drug interactions is about is about

> 5-6% of all acute admissions, with an estimated 30% of those being

> either directly or accountable due to OTC (inc herbal medication).

> Surely enough that the herbal medication should be regulated and not

> seen as better.

Herbal medicines, like other medicines are pharmacologically active

substances and therefore can be responsible for adverse reactions when,

particualrly when used inappropriately or without the supervision of a

medical herbalists. However the adverse reactions of herbs are often

overstated and the vast majority of adverse reactions are caused by

orthodox medications.

Despite regulation of the orthodox medical profession, iatrogenic

factors are still a major cause of death. The National Institute of

Medical Herbalists was founded in 1864 and since then, not one person

has died as a result of herbs prescribed by any of its members.

Medical herbalists in the UK and Ireland support the regulation of

herbal medicine and are currently working towards this.

Medical herbalists recognize that some conditions are best treated with

orthodox medicines, while others respond better to herbal treatment.

Neither form of treatment is seen as superior and the ideal situation

is one in which herbalists and doctors work together for the good of

the patient.

>

> As you said yo uhave studied it can you tell me the interactions of

> (WITHOUT GOOGLE etc)

> Hawthorn

> Ginseng

> Garlic

>

> I picked out a few very common ones not the rare or difficult ones.

If you are interested in herb drug interactions, I suggest you refer to

a text such as Mills and Bone's " Herbal Safety " as the topic is too

extensive to cover here.

>

> Evening Primrose Oil, i wasn;t talking about it for hormonal

> problems more its use as a cholesterol lowering agent, however as i

> would say there is little evidence for most herbal medications...

> but empirical evidence from people i regard says it is good for the

> mild symptoms of the menopause.

There is in fact a huge body of research for very many herbal

medicines. I suggest you run a search of medline to see a selection of

research on any herbs that you are interested in.

>

> Damian

>

> p.s. in conclusion i should say that i am all for complementary

> medicine just i think so far even most practitioners are not

> regulated properly and neither are the ingridients they use.

>

I would remind you that Herbal medicine is not just another form of

complementary medicine, but a form of treatment with the same origins

as orthodox medicine. Many important medical drugs originated as

constituents of plants, and the herbal medicines used by medical

herbalists contain these pharmacologically active constituents.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks for that Áine Marie.

I know I am not the best person to fight the herb vs orthodox medicine

corner - actually I'm dreading conversations I'm likely to have at med

school. I think this is because I find it difficult to reconcile the

seperation that exists in me between my instinctive and scientific

natures if that makes sense. It's something I'm going to have to work

on over the summer, and on a more psycho-spiritual level for the rest

of my life. Anyone who knows me knows I'm not usually lost for words

or likely to come out the worst in a debate but this is my achellies

heel and tied up with all sorts of deep personal paradoxes. Anyway, I

used your suggestions pretty much verbatum and will post back here

with the reply so we can all have a laugh!

Many thanks again,

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Amazing how these conversations can really press the buttons (great image!).

Tell him that herbalists are all too aware of the potential pitfalls of OTC

use of herbs amongst those who assume that natural equals safe, and support

much better patient information. That this is on its way, but legislation

is a slow thing.

You could turn the debate on its head and educate him about the conventional

drugs that are most likely to interact with herbs. The patients at risk

from herb/drug interactions are those who take drugs with a narrow

therapeutic window - slightly too much and they¹re toxic, slightly too

little and they¹re ineffective. The drugs that have most often been

reported to interact with herbs are Warfarin, the cardiac glycosides,

quinidine, any of the anti-epileptic drugs, immunosuppressants (e.g. after

organ transplant), and anti-viral drugs for HIV and AIDS. Most interactions

occur when people take herbs that affect the rate of drug metabolism ­

either speeding it up or slowing it down, so that the plasma concentration

of the drug is affected, with undesirable results (the remainder are

additive reactions, where the herb and the drug have similar effects,

leading effectively to overdose, for example Valerian and benzodiazipines,

or St ¹s Wort and antidepressants).

St ¹s Wort is known to induce CYP 450 enzymes, and particularly the 3A4

subfamily, which is known to be particularly important in drug metabolism.

Therefore it is likely to speed up metabolism of most drugs. In most cases,

the effect won¹t noticeable. But with the narrow therapeutic window drugs

it can lead to sufficiently lowered plasma concentrations of the drug that

you get adverse effects from under dosing. But also point out that on its

own it has an excellent safety profile, much better than that of Prozac, to

which it is so often compared.

Hawthorn ­ I¹m not aware of any interactions

Garlic ­ has a proven blood thinning action, so can interact with Warfarin

to increase the risk of bleeding.

Panax ginseng ­ one case study where it may have interacted with Warfarin to

increase risk of clotting.

If you would like to supply him with references ­ things he could find from

searching PubMed ­ contact me off list. And well done for getting in there

and mixing it with the medics.

Natalia

--

natalia@...

Reply-To: <ukherbal-list >

Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 22:52:44 -0000

To: <ukherbal-list >

Subject: herb/drug interactions

Hi All,

got myself into a stupid argument with a medic on an internet chat

site as to the value of herbal medicine. I'm feeling all defensive

and edgy and he's pressed my buttons which is couding my thinking.

Below is his post - any suggestions for a good response (I admit -

since I've not been practising much and not treating anyone on

perscription/OTC drugs I havn't kept up to date with recent

developments reagrding interactions)?

Thanks,

St 's Wort is indeed used instead of other antidepressants

however it has a massive list of interaciotns some of them possibly

fatal such as Digoxin, Immunosuppressives, Indinavir and other

protease inhibitors, Theophylline, Warfarin, and erious such as

delirium with Loperamide.

As most patients don't regard these as medications they are likley

to take them with their Rx drugs and even one off drugs such as

loperimide which can be bought OTC.

Hospital admissions for adverse drug interactions is about is about

5-6% of all acute admissions, with an estimated 30% of those being

either directly or accountable due to OTC (inc herbal medication).

Surely enough that the herbal medication should be regulated and not

seen as better.

As you said yo uhave studied it can you tell me the interactions of

(WITHOUT GOOGLE etc)

Hawthorn

Ginseng

Garlic

I picked out a few very common ones not the rare or difficult ones.

Evening Primrose Oil, i wasn;t talking about it for hormonal

problems more its use as a cholesterol lowering agent, however as i

would say there is little evidence for most herbal medications...

but empirical evidence from people i regard says it is good for the

mild symptoms of the menopause.

Damian

p.s. in conclusion i should say that i am all for complementary

medicine just i think so far even most practitioners are not

regulated properly and neither are the ingridients they use.

--

This email has been verified as Virus free

Virus Protection and more available at http://www.plus.net

[Guest guest]

Hello ,

Just a few thoughts for you...

I find the comments you have received from Damian a fairly typical

response from medical folk - they take the high ground and consider they

are RIGHT (first) leaving you to catch-up with their moral high ground!

Well, if they are so clever and so secure and always right - how come

they have so many problems? Also, if regulation makes a medical

procedure/process/intervention safe, how come so many drugs

harm/hurt/kill? Can you name me one drug that heals anything?

Personally, I find this type of attack process both sad and sad for it

proves nothing other than a lack of ability to see outside one's own

limitations; any justification sought in the process, is only to attack

the other party... blah, blah, blah! I feel not worth rising to... will

they truly learn anything from the experience?

Best regards,

--

Benn Abdy- MCPP

Medical Herbalist

Windsor & London

0 or 07957 65 88 90

[Guest guest]

Hi and Benn,

Benn I agree with you. Next time I'm not going to rise to it!

thanks for the suggestions I'll check them out. Also, regarding

the QC of herbs I outlined exactly what you do at Rutland Bio - I

think some people reading the posts might be surprised at the

processes and safeguards involved - people still seem to think we

brew up concotions in our kitchens while cooking the tea!

Ah well, if anything any prejudices I might encounter at med school

will make me only more determined to shine - after all, herbalists

going to med school have a pretty good head start due to our

excellent training !

>

>

> Hello ,

>

> Just a few thoughts for you...

>

> I find the comments you have received from Damian a fairly typical

> response from medical folk - they take the high ground and

consider they

> are RIGHT (first) leaving you to catch-up with their moral high

ground!

> Well, if they are so clever and so secure and always right - how

come

> they have so many problems? Also, if regulation makes a medical

> procedure/process/intervention safe, how come so many drugs

> harm/hurt/kill? Can you name me one drug that heals anything?

>

> Personally, I find this type of attack process both sad and sad

for it

> proves nothing other than a lack of ability to see outside one's

own

> limitations; any justification sought in the process, is only to

attack

> the other party... blah, blah, blah! I feel not worth rising to...

will

> they truly learn anything from the experience?

>

> Best regards,

>

> --

> Benn Abdy- MCPP

> Medical Herbalist

> Windsor & London

> 0 or 07957 65 88 90

>

[Guest guest]

Hi

Thank you - that is a very interesting link. It's also good to see

Wahlberg is from the LSE since they are considered to have some

gravitas by certain people (my partner's alma mater interestingly).

[Guest guest]

Just to update you on the 'debate' - I held my own and don't think I

let the herbs down. ly, the guy was exposed as being 'sacrastic

and unnecessarily aggresive and argumentative' and pretty soon others

just got bored with him.

It has made me realise how far we have to go in the PR game though -

people still hold all manner of misconceptions about western herbal

medicine that leave me speechless (may be this is cause I grew up in

germany with a mother and doctor who used herbs as a matter of

course). Perhaps we need a sort of 'herb ztar' (sp?) or ''s

Herbal Medicine'.

Thank you to everyone for their support!

[Guest guest]

I feel I ought to know the answer to this question, but don't, so here goes!

Were the tests that found that 'st john's wort' affects cytochrome P450 carried

out on Hypericum perforatum as well as Hypericin, or just hypericin? It has

always been my understanding that the trials only involved Hypericin (that

tablet) and therefore are not wholly representative of Hypericum perforatum,

(that herb that comes in a jar or a bottle)! They do of course represent the

action of one constituent of hypericum perforatum, but nothing else.

For example, it would be like looking at the little finger nail and declaring

that humans were made entirely of hard, inflexible nail keratin, and nothing

else! No digestive system, circulatory system, nervous system.................

What say you all?

Hayley jones x

www.herbalhayley.moonfruit.com

for more information and to subscribe to your free monthly inspirational

newsletter

herb/drug interactions

Hi All,

got myself into a stupid argument with a medic on an internet chat

site as to the value of herbal medicine. I'm feeling all defensive

and edgy and he's pressed my buttons which is couding my thinking.

Below is his post - any suggestions for a good response (I admit -

since I've not been practising much and not treating anyone on

perscription/OTC drugs I havn't kept up to date with recent

developments reagrding interactions)?

Thanks,

St 's Wort is indeed used instead of other antidepressants

however it has a massive list of interaciotns some of them possibly

fatal such as Digoxin, Immunosuppressives, Indinavir and other

protease inhibitors, Theophylline, Warfarin, and erious such as

delirium with Loperamide.

As most patients don't regard these as medications they are likley

to take them with their Rx drugs and even one off drugs such as

loperimide which can be bought OTC.

Hospital admissions for adverse drug interactions is about is about

5-6% of all acute admissions, with an estimated 30% of those being

either directly or accountable due to OTC (inc herbal medication).

Surely enough that the herbal medication should be regulated and not

seen as better.

As you said yo uhave studied it can you tell me the interactions of

(WITHOUT GOOGLE etc)

Hawthorn

Ginseng

Garlic

I picked out a few very common ones not the rare or difficult ones.

Evening Primrose Oil, i wasn;t talking about it for hormonal

problems more its use as a cholesterol lowering agent, however as i

would say there is little evidence for most herbal medications...

but empirical evidence from people i regard says it is good for the

mild symptoms of the menopause.

Damian

p.s. in conclusion i should say that i am all for complementary

medicine just i think so far even most practitioners are not

regulated properly and neither are the ingridients they use.

--

This email has been verified as Virus free

Virus Protection and more available at http://www.plus.net

[Guest guest]

Fantastic Eva! Thankyou very much for your reply - see, I knew someone would

have the answer! And that seems a very sensible answer!

That's very reassuring too that the threshold is a high dose - that has answered

lots of the other questions that I had too. Do you know where that info came

from?

Hope everything's going well for you, and hope to bump into you soon,

love

Hayley x

www.herbalhayley.moonfruit.com

for more information and to subscribe to your free monthly inspirational

newsletter

herb/drug interactions

>

> Hi All,

>

> got myself into a stupid argument with a medic on an internet chat

> site as to the value of herbal medicine. I'm feeling all defensive

> and edgy and he's pressed my buttons which is couding my thinking.

> Below is his post - any suggestions for a good response (I admit -

> since I've not been practising much and not treating anyone on

> perscription/OTC drugs I havn't kept up to date with recent

> developments reagrding interactions)?

>

> Thanks,

>

> St 's Wort is indeed used instead of other antidepressants

> however it has a massive list of interaciotns some of them possibly

> fatal such as Digoxin, Immunosuppressives, Indinavir and other

> protease inhibitors, Theophylline, Warfarin, and erious such as

> delirium with Loperamide.

>

> As most patients don't regard these as medications they are likley

> to take them with their Rx drugs and even one off drugs such as

> loperimide which can be bought OTC.

>

> Hospital admissions for adverse drug interactions is about is about

> 5-6% of all acute admissions, with an estimated 30% of those being

> either directly or accountable due to OTC (inc herbal medication).

> Surely enough that the herbal medication should be regulated and not

> seen as better.

>

> As you said yo uhave studied it can you tell me the interactions of

> (WITHOUT GOOGLE etc)

> Hawthorn

> Ginseng

> Garlic

>

> I picked out a few very common ones not the rare or difficult ones.

>

> Evening Primrose Oil, i wasn;t talking about it for hormonal

> problems more its use as a cholesterol lowering agent, however as i

> would say there is little evidence for most herbal medications...

> but empirical evidence from people i regard says it is good for the

> mild symptoms of the menopause.

>

> Damian

>

> p.s. in conclusion i should say that i am all for complementary

> medicine just i think so far even most practitioners are not

> regulated properly and neither are the ingridients they use.

>

> --

> This email has been verified as Virus free

> Virus Protection and more available at http://www.plus.net

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Hayley,

Hypericum whole plant extract also affects CYP450 enzymes but in a

dose-dependent manner. I believe that dosages of 2g / 2ml FE per day

are thought to be the threshold, so anything above that may be a

problem, particularly if patients are taking medication with a narrow

therapeutic index. Still, 2ml FE per day is a pretty high dose and a

lot can be done with less.

Eva x

> I feel I ought to know the answer to this question, but don't, so here

> goes! Were the tests that found that 'st john's wort' affects

> cytochrome P450 carried out on Hypericum perforatum as well as

> Hypericin, or just hypericin? It has always been my understanding that

> the trials only involved Hypericin (that tablet) and therefore are not

> wholly representative of Hypericum perforatum, (that herb that comes

> in a jar or a bottle)! They do of course represent the action of one

> constituent of hypericum perforatum, but nothing else.

>

> For example, it would be like looking at the little finger nail and

> declaring that humans were made entirely of hard, inflexible nail

> keratin, and nothing else! No digestive system, circulatory system,

> nervous system.................

>

> What say you all?

> Hayley jones x

>

> www.herbalhayley.moonfruit.com

> for more information and to subscribe to your free monthly

> inspirational newsletter

> herb/drug interactions

>

> Hi All,

>

> got myself into a stupid argument with a medic on an internet chat

> site as to the value of herbal medicine. I'm feeling all defensive

> and edgy and he's pressed my buttons which is couding my thinking.

> Below is his post - any suggestions for a good response (I admit -

> since I've not been practising much and not treating anyone on

> perscription/OTC drugs I havn't kept up to date with recent

> developments reagrding interactions)?

>

> Thanks,

>

> St 's Wort is indeed used instead of other antidepressants

> however it has a massive list of interaciotns some of them possibly

> fatal such as Digoxin, Immunosuppressives, Indinavir and other

> protease inhibitors, Theophylline, Warfarin, and erious such as

> delirium with Loperamide.

>

> As most patients don't regard these as medications they are likley

> to take them with their Rx drugs and even one off drugs such as

> loperimide which can be bought OTC.

>

> Hospital admissions for adverse drug interactions is about is about

> 5-6% of all acute admissions, with an estimated 30% of those being

> either directly or accountable due to OTC (inc herbal medication).

> Surely enough that the herbal medication should be regulated and not

> seen as better.

>

> As you said yo uhave studied it can you tell me the interactions of

> (WITHOUT GOOGLE etc)

> Hawthorn

> Ginseng

> Garlic

>

> I picked out a few very common ones not the rare or difficult ones.

>

> Evening Primrose Oil, i wasn;t talking about it for hormonal

> problems more its use as a cholesterol lowering agent, however as i

> would say there is little evidence for most herbal medications...

> but empirical evidence from people i regard says it is good for the

> mild symptoms of the menopause.

>

> Damian

>

> p.s. in conclusion i should say that i am all for complementary

> medicine just i think so far even most practitioners are not

> regulated properly and neither are the ingridients they use.

>

> --

> This email has been verified as Virus free

> Virus Protection and more available at http://www.plus.net

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Hayley,

I did my dissertation on liver metabolism / cytochrome P450 and herbs

affecting that system (a few years ago now!)... the 2g per day

threshold was from a Kerry Bone seminar on herb-drug interactions at

the time and I believe the information is still valid, have not read

any more recent reports on Hypericum / CYP450 / dosages ...

Hope this helps

Eva x

> Fantastic Eva! Thankyou very much for your reply - see, I knew someone

> would have the answer! And that seems a very sensible answer!

>

> That's very reassuring too that the threshold is a high dose - that

> has answered lots of the other questions that I had too. Do you know

> where that info came from?

>

> Hope everything's going well for you, and hope to bump into you soon,

> love

> Hayley x

>

> www.herbalhayley.moonfruit.com

> for more information and to subscribe to your free monthly

> inspirational newsletter

> herb/drug interactions

> >

> > Hi All,

> >

> > got myself into a stupid argument with a medic on an internet chat

> > site as to the value of herbal medicine. I'm feeling all defensive

> > and edgy and he's pressed my buttons which is couding my thinking.

> > Below is his post - any suggestions for a good response (I admit -

> > since I've not been practising much and not treating anyone on

> > perscription/OTC drugs I havn't kept up to date with recent

> > developments reagrding interactions)?

> >

> > Thanks,

> >

> > St 's Wort is indeed used instead of other antidepressants

> > however it has a massive list of interaciotns some of them possibly

> > fatal such as Digoxin, Immunosuppressives, Indinavir and other

> > protease inhibitors, Theophylline, Warfarin, and erious such as

> > delirium with Loperamide.

> >

> > As most patients don't regard these as medications they are likley

> > to take them with their Rx drugs and even one off drugs such as

> > loperimide which can be bought OTC.

> >

> > Hospital admissions for adverse drug interactions is about is about

> > 5-6% of all acute admissions, with an estimated 30% of those being

> > either directly or accountable due to OTC (inc herbal medication).

> > Surely enough that the herbal medication should be regulated and not

> > seen as better.

> >

> > As you said yo uhave studied it can you tell me the interactions of

> > (WITHOUT GOOGLE etc)

> > Hawthorn

> > Ginseng

> > Garlic

> >

> > I picked out a few very common ones not the rare or difficult ones.

> >

> > Evening Primrose Oil, i wasn;t talking about it for hormonal

> > problems more its use as a cholesterol lowering agent, however as i

> > would say there is little evidence for most herbal medications...

> > but empirical evidence from people i regard says it is good for the

> > mild symptoms of the menopause.

> >

> > Damian

> >

> > p.s. in conclusion i should say that i am all for complementary

> > medicine just i think so far even most practitioners are not

> > regulated properly and neither are the ingridients they use.

> >

> > --

> > This email has been verified as Virus free

> > Virus Protection and more available at http://www.plus.net

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

fantastic eva, thankyou! What other interesting things did you find?

Hayley x

www.herbalhayley.moonfruit.com

for more information and to subscribe to your free monthly inspirational

newsletter

herb/drug interactions

> >

> > Hi All,

> >

> > got myself into a stupid argument with a medic on an internet chat

> > site as to the value of herbal medicine. I'm feeling all defensive

> > and edgy and he's pressed my buttons which is couding my thinking.

> > Below is his post - any suggestions for a good response (I admit -

> > since I've not been practising much and not treating anyone on

> > perscription/OTC drugs I havn't kept up to date with recent

> > developments reagrding interactions)?

> >

> > Thanks,

> >

> > St 's Wort is indeed used instead of other antidepressants

> > however it has a massive list of interaciotns some of them possibly

> > fatal such as Digoxin, Immunosuppressives, Indinavir and other

> > protease inhibitors, Theophylline, Warfarin, and erious such as

> > delirium with Loperamide.

> >

> > As most patients don't regard these as medications they are likley

> > to take them with their Rx drugs and even one off drugs such as

> > loperimide which can be bought OTC.

> >

> > Hospital admissions for adverse drug interactions is about is about

> > 5-6% of all acute admissions, with an estimated 30% of those being

> > either directly or accountable due to OTC (inc herbal medication).

> > Surely enough that the herbal medication should be regulated and not

> > seen as better.

> >

> > As you said yo uhave studied it can you tell me the interactions of

> > (WITHOUT GOOGLE etc)

> > Hawthorn

> > Ginseng

> > Garlic

> >

> > I picked out a few very common ones not the rare or difficult ones.

> >

> > Evening Primrose Oil, i wasn;t talking about it for hormonal

> > problems more its use as a cholesterol lowering agent, however as i

> > would say there is little evidence for most herbal medications...

> > but empirical evidence from people i regard says it is good for the

> > mild symptoms of the menopause.

> >

> > Damian

> >

> > p.s. in conclusion i should say that i am all for complementary

> > medicine just i think so far even most practitioners are not

> > regulated properly and neither are the ingridients they use.

> >

> > --

> > This email has been verified as Virus free

> > Virus Protection and more available at http://www.plus.net

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Hi Hayley,

Lots of geeky things!

At the time (6 years ago), herb-drug interactions via CYP450 was a very

neglected area and not much info was available, apart from all the

scares about Hypericum, some data on Curcuma, Schizandra, Carduus,

Rosmarinus, Panax and some isolated studies on other herbs ...

Basically, a lot of other herbs (and foods) have the potential to up-

or down-regulate liver metabolism ... What it boils down to, is

dose-dependence. Using low doses and traditional whole plant extracts

is a lot less risky than using high doses or standardised extracts

containing unnaturally high levels of certain " active " constituents.

All common sense really.

Eva x

> fantastic eva, thankyou! What other interesting things did you find?

>

> Hayley x

>

> www.herbalhayley.moonfruit.com

> for more information and to subscribe to your free monthly

> inspirational newsletter

> herb/drug interactions

> > >

> > > Hi All,

> > >

> > > got myself into a stupid argument with a medic on an internet chat

> > > site as to the value of herbal medicine. I'm feeling all defensive

> > > and edgy and he's pressed my buttons which is couding my thinking.

> > > Below is his post - any suggestions for a good response (I admit -

> > > since I've not been practising much and not treating anyone on

> > > perscription/OTC drugs I havn't kept up to date with recent

> > > developments reagrding interactions)?

> > >

> > > Thanks,

> > >

> > > St 's Wort is indeed used instead of other antidepressants

> > > however it has a massive list of interaciotns some of them

> possibly

> > > fatal such as Digoxin, Immunosuppressives, Indinavir and other

> > > protease inhibitors, Theophylline, Warfarin, and erious such as

> > > delirium with Loperamide.

> > >

> > > As most patients don't regard these as medications they are likley

> > > to take them with their Rx drugs and even one off drugs such as

> > > loperimide which can be bought OTC.

> > >

> > > Hospital admissions for adverse drug interactions is about is

> about

> > > 5-6% of all acute admissions, with an estimated 30% of those being

> > > either directly or accountable due to OTC (inc herbal medication).

> > > Surely enough that the herbal medication should be regulated and

> not

> > > seen as better.

> > >

> > > As you said yo uhave studied it can you tell me the interactions

> of

> > > (WITHOUT GOOGLE etc)

> > > Hawthorn

> > > Ginseng

> > > Garlic

> > >

> > > I picked out a few very common ones not the rare or difficult

> ones.

> > >

> > > Evening Primrose Oil, i wasn;t talking about it for hormonal

> > > problems more its use as a cholesterol lowering agent, however as

> i

> > > would say there is little evidence for most herbal medications...

> > > but empirical evidence from people i regard says it is good for

> the

> > > mild symptoms of the menopause.

> > >

> > > Damian

> > >

> > > p.s. in conclusion i should say that i am all for complementary

> > > medicine just i think so far even most practitioners are not

> > > regulated properly and neither are the ingridients they use.

> > >

> > > --

> > > This email has been verified as Virus free

> > > Virus Protection and more available at http://www.plus.net

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Thanks again, Eva

I love it when it all makes sense!

Take care now,

Hayley x

www.herbalhayley.moonfruit.com

for more information and to subscribe to your free monthly inspirational

newsletter

herb/drug interactions

> > >

> > > Hi All,

> > >

> > > got myself into a stupid argument with a medic on an internet chat

> > > site as to the value of herbal medicine. I'm feeling all defensive

> > > and edgy and he's pressed my buttons which is couding my thinking.

> > > Below is his post - any suggestions for a good response (I admit -

> > > since I've not been practising much and not treating anyone on

> > > perscription/OTC drugs I havn't kept up to date with recent

> > > developments reagrding interactions)?

> > >

> > > Thanks,

> > >

> > > St 's Wort is indeed used instead of other antidepressants

> > > however it has a massive list of interaciotns some of them

> possibly

> > > fatal such as Digoxin, Immunosuppressives, Indinavir and other

> > > protease inhibitors, Theophylline, Warfarin, and erious such as

> > > delirium with Loperamide.

> > >

> > > As most patients don't regard these as medications they are likley

> > > to take them with their Rx drugs and even one off drugs such as

> > > loperimide which can be bought OTC.

> > >

> > > Hospital admissions for adverse drug interactions is about is

> about

> > > 5-6% of all acute admissions, with an estimated 30% of those being

> > > either directly or accountable due to OTC (inc herbal medication).

> > > Surely enough that the herbal medication should be regulated and

> not

> > > seen as better.

> > >

> > > As you said yo uhave studied it can you tell me the interactions

> of

> > > (WITHOUT GOOGLE etc)

> > > Hawthorn

> > > Ginseng

> > > Garlic

> > >

> > > I picked out a few very common ones not the rare or difficult

> ones.

> > >

> > > Evening Primrose Oil, i wasn;t talking about it for hormonal

> > > problems more its use as a cholesterol lowering agent, however as

> i

> > > would say there is little evidence for most herbal medications...

> > > but empirical evidence from people i regard says it is good for

> the

> > > mild symptoms of the menopause.

> > >

> > > Damian

> > >

> > > p.s. in conclusion i should say that i am all for complementary

> > > medicine just i think so far even most practitioners are not

> > > regulated properly and neither are the ingridients they use.

> > >

> > > --

> > > This email has been verified as Virus free

> > > Virus Protection and more available at http://www.plus.net

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Hi Eva,

Your dissertation on herb/drug interactions sounds very interesting.

Is it possible for you to make a copy available to read, pdf or

whatever? While the 2gm / 2ml fe threshold takes many of our herbal

prescriptions out of the equation it is a subject which I'm very

interested to read on.

Best rgds

Orbell-Mc

> > >

> > > > I feel I ought to know the answer to this question, but don't, so

> > > here

> > > > goes! Were the tests that found that 'st john's wort' affects

> > > > cytochrome P450 carried out on Hypericum perforatum as well as

> > > > Hypericin, or just hypericin? It has always been my understanding

> > > that

> > > > the trials only involved Hypericin (that tablet) and

therefore are

> > > not

> > > > wholly representative of Hypericum perforatum, (that herb that

> > comes

> > > > in a jar or a bottle)! They do of course represent the action of

> > one

> > > > constituent of hypericum perforatum, but nothing else.

> > > >

> > > > For example, it would be like looking at the little finger nail

> > and

> > > > declaring that humans were made entirely of hard, inflexible nail

> > > > keratin, and nothing else! No digestive system, circulatory

> > system,

> > > > nervous system.................

> > > >

> > > > What say you all?

> > > > Hayley jones x

> > > >

> > > > www.herbalhayley.moonfruit.com

> > > > for more information and to subscribe to your free monthly

> > > > inspirational newsletter

> > > > herb/drug interactions

> > > >

> > > > Hi All,

> > > >

> > > > got myself into a stupid argument with a medic on an internet

chat

> > > > site as to the value of herbal medicine. I'm feeling all

defensive

> > > > and edgy and he's pressed my buttons which is couding my

thinking.

> > > > Below is his post - any suggestions for a good response (I

admit -

> > > > since I've not been practising much and not treating anyone on

> > > > perscription/OTC drugs I havn't kept up to date with recent

> > > > developments reagrding interactions)?

> > > >

> > > > Thanks,

> > > >

> > > > St 's Wort is indeed used instead of other antidepressants

> > > > however it has a massive list of interaciotns some of them

> > possibly

> > > > fatal such as Digoxin, Immunosuppressives, Indinavir and other

> > > > protease inhibitors, Theophylline, Warfarin, and erious such as

> > > > delirium with Loperamide.

> > > >

> > > > As most patients don't regard these as medications they are

likley

> > > > to take them with their Rx drugs and even one off drugs such as

> > > > loperimide which can be bought OTC.

> > > >

> > > > Hospital admissions for adverse drug interactions is about is

> > about

> > > > 5-6% of all acute admissions, with an estimated 30% of those

being

> > > > either directly or accountable due to OTC (inc herbal

medication).

> > > > Surely enough that the herbal medication should be regulated and

> > not

> > > > seen as better.

> > > >

> > > > As you said yo uhave studied it can you tell me the interactions

> > of

> > > > (WITHOUT GOOGLE etc)

> > > > Hawthorn

> > > > Ginseng

> > > > Garlic

> > > >

> > > > I picked out a few very common ones not the rare or difficult

> > ones.

> > > >

> > > > Evening Primrose Oil, i wasn;t talking about it for hormonal

> > > > problems more its use as a cholesterol lowering agent,

however as

> > i

> > > > would say there is little evidence for most herbal medications...

> > > > but empirical evidence from people i regard says it is good for

> > the

> > > > mild symptoms of the menopause.

> > > >

> > > > Damian

> > > >

> > > > p.s. in conclusion i should say that i am all for complementary

> > > > medicine just i think so far even most practitioners are not

> > > > regulated properly and neither are the ingridients they use.

> > > >

> > > > --

> > > > This email has been verified as Virus free

> > > > Virus Protection and more available at http://www.plus.net

> > > >

> > > >