OT: Viet Nam era

[Guest guest]

Dan, all,

>D:Oh, I don't think so. The draft ended before the war, and with it most

>of the protesting. Actually, I think the last major violent anti-war

>protest was Kent State. I guess it stops being fun throwing rocks and

>gasoline bombs at the cops once they start shooting back.

The Kent State protest on May 4th capped four days of escalating

events on campus and on campuses around the country. (This tumult was

in response to the announcement of the illegal invasion of Cambodia,

by President Nixon, on April 30.

On Friday evening May 1, around 1,000 KSU students became unruly on

the Main Street of Kent, Ohio on the evening of a peaceful protest on

campus. Rocks were thrown at the police and several cars were

destroyed. The mayor of Kent asked Governor for extra

security. On Saturday May 2, the ROTC building was burned to the

ground. Ohio NG troops arrived late that evening.

The town and the university banned all assemblies on the campus on

the morning of Monday, May 4th. However, by the late morning of this

day, 3,000+ students and other persons had assembled on the KSU

commons.

" Shortly before noon, General Canterbury made the decision to order

the demonstrators to disperse. A Kent State police officer standing

by the Guard made an announcement using a bullhorn. When this had no

effect, the officer was placed in a jeep along with several Guardsmen

and driven across the Commons to tell the protestors that the rally

was banned and that they must disperse. This was met with angry

shouting and rocks, and the jeep retreated. Canterbury then ordered

his men to load and lock their weapons, tear gas canisters were fired

into the crowd around the Victory Bell, and the Guard began to march

across the Commons to disperse the rally. The protestors moved up a

steep hill, known as Blanket Hill, and then down the other side of

the hill onto the Prentice Hall parking lot as well as an adjoining

practice football field.

Most of the Guardsmen followed the students directly and soon found

themselves somewhat trapped on the practice football field because it

was surrounded by a fence. Yelling and rock throwing reached a peak

as the Guard remained on the field for about ten minutes. Several

Guardsmen could be seen huddling together, and some Guardsmen knelt

and pointed their guns, but no weapons were shot at this time. The

Guard then began retracing their steps from the practice football

field back up Blanket Hill. As they arrived at the top of the hill,

twenty-eight of the more than seventy Guardsmen turned suddenly and

fired their rifles and pistols. Many guardsmen fired into the air or

the ground. However, a small portion fired directly into the crowd.

Altogether between 61 and 67 shots were fired in a 13 second period. "

http://dept.kent.edu/sociology/lewis/lewihen.htm

***

No gasoline bombs were tossed. I think you might disagree that rock

throwing shouldn't be a capital offense, or poses obvious mortal

dangers to helmeted Guardsmen armed with M-16's, but, in any case,

fatalities Schroeder, Scheuer, and Krause were not a part of the mob

and were struck over 100 yards from where the NG fired from.

Two students were killed and twelve were wounded at State in

Mississippi on May 14 when a small group was backed against a woman's

dormitory, a bottle was thrown, and the law enforcement officers

(MSHP) fired for 30 seconds. The unfortunate and interesting fact

about this incident is that the students were not protesters but

simply were moving away from a phalanx of officers who had minutes

before assembled to patrol the campus. Because of the layout of the

campus the officers had actually caused the group to assemble, for

they had, literally, marched them to a wall of the dorm. Over 400

rounds were expended.

***

Protests continued throughout the time period 1970-1972, however the

spring of 1970 was the last major nationwide, large-scale protest

against the war. The draft was ended in late 1972.

***

You bark the company line nicely. You might talk about the deficits

in Iraq too, eh? Because where there are benefits there are usually

deficits.

D:I think that Iraq has been benefitted by the war, although benefitting

the Iraqis was not its primary purpose - I agree with you there. It was

waged, among other reasons, to establish a solid base of American power

- and a more reliable ally than the Saudis- in the middle east,

Should we ever allow their government to take the democratic form

through which this possibility could exist, my prediction is that

Iraq's government will ask our military to tear down its bases and

remove its forces.

The whole question of status of forces as a matter of formal

agreement in Iraq, between Iraq and the US, is quite knotty.

I rather doubt that democracy is really what the deep thinkers in the

Bush cabal think should be granted to persons who's very minds are

not subject to their control!

LOL

regards,

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

SC wrote:

>

>

> ***

>

> No gasoline bombs were tossed. I think you might disagree that rock

> throwing shouldn't be a capital offense, or poses obvious mortal

> dangers to helmeted Guardsmen armed with M-16's, but, in any case,

> fatalities Schroeder, Scheuer, and Krause were not a part of the mob

> and were struck over 100 yards from where the NG fired from.

I would agree that an iron-fisted crushing of such a rebellion was fully

justified. Mob violence must not be tolerated. The correct place for any

student that weekend was miles away from the protest (like, maybe, home with the

folks). You hang out with radicals, you're going to get into trouble.

" Avoid bad company, " your mother always preached - didn't she? To repeat, this

was the last major campus uprising, which says something in itself.

> (snip)

>

>

> Should we ever allow their government to take the democratic form

> through which this possibility could exist, my prediction is that

> Iraq's government will ask our military to tear down its bases and

> remove its forces.

That obviously cannot be permitted.

>

>

> The whole question of status of forces as a matter of formal

> agreement in Iraq, between Iraq and the US, is quite knotty.

>

> I rather doubt that democracy is really what the deep thinkers in the

> Bush cabal think should be granted to persons who's very minds are

> not subject to their control!

You should pardon the expression, but - duhhh.... Ya think?

Democracy is a form of government (and not necessarily the best). That's all it

is. It's not a sacrament. It's not God's favorite regime. And it is,

or should be, clear enough that not all peoples and cultures are capable of

adequate self-government. The Iraqis may be - in due time.

Regards,

Dan

>

>

> LOL

>

> regards,

>

>

>

> " Our highest duty as human beings is to search out a means whereby beings may

be freed from all kinds of unsatisfactory experience and suffering. "

>

> H.H. Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th. Dalai Lama

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dan,

>D:I would agree that an iron-fisted crushing of such a rebellion was

>fully justified. Mob violence must not be tolerated.

I would say that killing three persons who weren't part of the mob

might be described more accurately by something other than

" iron-fisted crushing " .

The state of Ohio coughed up tens of millions of dollars to settle

the civil case, and, the NG apologized.

Obviously I do not agree that protesters should be killed. But, I'm

so familiar with your own ethos that your sanction of the taking of

life under those circumstances, (Kent State was an unlawful assembly

of protesters,) hardly surprises me.

>D:And it is,

>or should be, clear enough that not all peoples and cultures are

>capable of adequate self-government. The Iraqis may be - in due time.

This is disingenuous. The Iraq's will be permitted to vote when they

come to understand that some of their choices will not be allowed. I

doubt very much this has anything to do with the capabilities you

imply here. The imperative here is creating a physical platform from

which to wreck more havoc on the disagreeable despots of the mid-east.

Prediction. There will be plenty of protesters to shoot at when the

draft is begun again next year, should Bush win his first

presidential election.

regards,

[Guest guest]

One of the more bizarre incidents in the days following Kent State was

during the time when demonstrations were happening all over the

country, campuses were being taken over, and things were really coming

to a head. A very large crowd in the hundreds or even thousands

assembled on the Mall in Washington and were demonstrating and camping

out. Nixon reportedly got drunk and only he and his valet went to the

Lincoln Memorial. He wanted to talk to the people about football and

was relating to these people from the point of view of how life must

have been for him as a college student in the 30's. The brothers of

these people were dying. He just didn't seem to get it. After a few

minutes the Secret Service and his aides arrived to disperse the crowd

and get Nixon back to the White House. Very strange, and maybe shows

just how out of balance he was.

There is a great scene portraying this event in Oliver Stone's movie,

Nixon. A movie which I believe handled his life very even handedly. My

favorite scene in this movie is toward the end when Nixon is getting

ready to resign and Kissinger turns to Haig and says, " Imagine what he

could have been had he been loved. "

In our discussion of the aborted revolution, the mores and the

concepts that came out of the sixties, I think it is overlooking the

500 pound elephant in the living room not to recognize that these

rebellious events grew out of the assassinations of JFK, RFK and MLK

and many people knew intuitively that these killings could not have

been the work of 3 crazed " lone gunmen. " If Jim Garrison did anything,

he got the Zabruder film made public and we could all see for

ourselves what happened, that it couldn't have been one person.

On top of that, we had this completely false war, that everybody could

see was built on lie on top of lie, and the never ending stream of

body bags was coming off airplanes daily, and this was on television,

unlike now. And the reporters in the field were reporting what was

really going on, not the embedded cheerleaders we had this last time

around, who never said a word about the thousands of innocent

civilians and young men drafted at gun point who didn't want to be

there and were just cannon fodder.

It wasn't going to be for our generation like it was in the 50's, no

Leave it to Beaver moms and Father Knows Best dads, no Ozzie and

Harriet families, while being buried in the shadow was Jim Crow,

abusive fathers from PTSD suffered in WW2, rich kids getting

deferments buying their way out, and a bunch of scared, old white men

deciding for the rest of us who is going to live and who is going to

die so some defense contractor corporation can make huge profits.

I, for one, was a year too young for the draft, but I was ready to go

to Canada. I was living in Michigan, it was close by, my cousin and I

had a plan. And I think that those that did go to Canada, or to jail,

like Muhammad Ali, were an inspiration. They showed us real courage.

As one of my favorite authors said, it's easy to risk your life. These

concepts of Honor and Bravery are in large part so many words.

Marketing. It takes real courage to risk your clichés.

[Guest guest]

, all,

Thanks for the correction.

>M:One of the more bizarre incidents in the days following Kent State was

>during the time when demonstrations were happening all over the

>country, campuses were being taken over, and things were really coming

>to a head.

Over 500,000 in Washington, on April 24, 1970; over 100,000 in NYC,

May 8-9, May 20, 1970; several hundred thousand on the KSU

anniversary in May 3-4 1971 in NYC, DC and other cities (13,000+

arrested in DC); last nationwide moratorium-on-the-war was held May

4,1972; large demonstration in DC at Nixon's inauguration.

(Had to go rooting around to correct my own misimpressions. I was at

the darn May 71 protest in DC. Tear-gassed but not arrested.)

***

RFK was polling ahead of Nixon among likely voters at the time of his

assassination.

regards,