reaction fr dmc

[Guest guest]

Recommend following links!

From: dmc

Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2004 11:08 AM

Subject: Re: [Negative-Capability] as of concern

>>alice sent: Influence of Carl Jung on the Church Part II >>

Thank you for this. It illustrates what I often experienced when I lived in

the Midwest and didn't belong to the especial large local mall church that

ruled the particular region. (The Romans would recognize the Mall Church's

ruler.

They called them Geniuses. http://www.jungcircle.com/muse/genius.html ) Once

the faithful knew you were not of the body, their eyes seemed to roll back and

the voice in their heads would warn them they were speaking to the devil.

That's you, or anyone who speaks anything besides the cant of Mallchurch.

(The Cant of Mallchurch. Was that a poem?)

Of course, the writer of this piece, Sundquist, has no idea that it's a

demon that speaks inside him, that writes this very piece. That moves his

pen.

Jung knew, as the ancients and certainly the world that spawned St.

knew, that demons speak to us all, and do it all the time: To the Greeks,

daemons

http://www.jungcircle.com/muse/plato.htm were messengers, inter-mediators

between man and deity; time and eternity.

To extrapolate, intermediaries between Self and the Ego, conscious and

unconscious. Nature, the mystery we come out of and go back into.

To mistrust your own inferior function is so common. To fear it is the stuff

of psychosis.

And really, let's be honest. Not all that much known about St. . Not much

known generally about his times now, either, he of the same world as Philo

and the " historical Jesus. " (An excellent grounding perspective:

http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2004/2004-7.html .) I hear some Rapture-ready

Fundamentalists

knocking him for derailing the process, the Truth: he's often gotten in the

way of mainlining the old Blood sacrifice deity. He did embrace mystery; he did

interpret the Jesus story as allegory. A symbol. And we can't have that.

No--we must have the literal. As Jung said, all great spiritual truths turn into

literal truths, becoming no more than tools in the hand of man.

The old Jinn is always getting out of the bottle. And what a brilliant myth

that was, Aladdin. What a projection for our own bottling up the deity so we

can hold it in our mind, " capture it " --- for as soon as we do, it's lost to us.

Isn't that what alice just said:

>>Problems arise the minute the personifications obscure the archetypal

processes they represent. Always unveil the 'goddes' n think what processes they

represent. Literalism is the demon at work - neg Saturn rules concretization!>>

Looks like Saturn rules Sundquist's piece quite well.

And that Aladdin bottling up of the deity is what Phoebe was speaking to...

people do this, they create a sick deity and bring it into the world, these

human psyches that believe (and thus create) in evil. Who have forgotten that

Apollo shares his powers with Night.

Psyche's stubborn insistence on seeing Eros isn't resolved until *she becomes

a deity as well.* That is, the higher mysteries absorbed, the lower mysteries

understood as steps to get there. All are precious... if I can still use that

word.

x's

dmc

[Guest guest]

I'm sure my response is out of context to what was being discussed on JF. I was

really responding to the importance of the concept of daemons and geniuses. Why?

Because those who hold scripture as the word of God must claim God speaks

through the writer. Who decides when it's really God? The assemblers of the

Bible, the Canon, gave that power to themselves: the Church. What is the Church?

Who decides that, who decides true, false? Once this sort of rationalization

begins, it never ends. God is good, yet Job. Questions of philosophy. Paradox.

Thus Augustine and the hordes of scholars addressing the problem of Evil.

The assigning of blame, the story of Lucifer. The Devil is a major player in

this religion, as important as the deity.

And now in our time, the concept of Evil is used to galvanize a modern Holy War.

Making a devil, jinn, angel, genius a real, living, and / or alien force within

one's consciousness is a powerful form of control. It's what Jung addresses, and

why Jung is so dangerous to Fundamentalism. It's also why we try to sense,

understand (a great old word), disrobe, de-veil, and work so hard to come to

terms with archetype.

... man derives his human personality only secondarily from what the myths

call his descent from the gods and heroes; or, to put it in psychological terms,

his consciousness of himself as a personality derives primarily from the

influence of quasi-personal archetypes. ~CGJUNG, in CW5, SYMBOLS OF

TRANSFORMATION

The other issue is the history, the period that scripture was created from and

in. There's a movement with Historians at the moment to place in a firm

Jewish tradition. Fine. So *what was that tradition in his time?* What did it

mean to be a Jew? Many many things at this time.

http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2004/2004-7.html

And if is firmly placed in some argument that results inevitably in the

ultimate Messiah Jesus, why is it that we have firm evidence of his letters

being doctored, sometimes even reversing what he was saying. Only 7 of his New

Testament letters are not considered forgeries. Moreover, why does Apocrypha and

Pseudepigrapha attributed to him place him so firmly in mystical magical

traditions? As does the logic of his history. Why was he claimed later as the

leader of Gnostics in other texts?

That's the leap of faith I'm making, skipping entirely the arguments for

scripture itself. Scripture is the centerpiece of Fundamentalism, after all.

And the concepts of Daemons, the modes of transmission of information from a

Deity, is the axis it all spins around.

LONG ago I read CS's Mere Christianity. I disagreed with him somewhere in

the first 10 pages. He could go on forever--which he does--but he does it

without me.

Influence re the Diaspora discussed in Freke and Gandy's Jesus Mysteries:

If we can throw off the traditional picture of and look at the evidence

with an open mind this anti- rhetoric is understandable, since his letters

show distinct Gnostic and Pagan influences. is a Jew who had embraced the

ubiquitous Greek culture of the times. He writes in Greek, his first language.

He quotes only from the Greek version of the Old Testament. His ministry is to

Pagan cities dominated by Greek culture.32 Of these, Antioch was the center for

the Mysteries of Adonis, Ephesus was a center for the Mysteries of Attis, and

Corinth was a center for the Mysteries of Dionysus.33 was a native of

Tarsus in Asia Minor, which by his time had surpassed even Athens and andria

to become the major center of Pagan philosophy.3 " It was in Tarsus that the

Mysteries of Mithras had originated, so it would have been unthinkable that

would have been unaware of the remarkable sim­ilarities we have already explored

between Christian doctrines and the teachings of ­Mithraism.35

frequently uses terms and phrases from the Pagan Mysteries, such as

pneuma (spirit), gnosis (divine knowledge), doxa (glory), sophia (wisdom),

teleioi (the initiated), and so on.3 " He advises his followers to " earnestly

seek cater charismata. " 37 The word " charismata " derives from the Mystery

rnakarismos, referring to the blessed nature of one who has seen the

mysteries.38 He even calls himself a " Steward of the Mysteries of God, " 39 which

is the technical name for a priest in the Mysteries of Serapis.40

quotes the Pagan sage Aratus, who had lived in Tarsus several cen­turies

earlier, describing God " in whom we live, and move, and have our being. " 41 He

also teaches Mystery doctrines. " 42 Like the Pagan sage Socrates, who was deemed

wise because he knew he knew nothing,43 teaches:

If someone thinks he knows something, he still doesn't know the way he ought

to know. 44

Just as Plato had written that we now only see reality " through a glass

dimly, " 45 so writes, " For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then

face to face. " 46

This famous passage from has also been translated:

At present all we see is the baffling reflection of reality; we are like men

looking at a landscape in a small mirror. The time will come when we shall see

reality whole and face to face.47

This translation clearly brings out the Platonic nature of 's teachings.

Plato had used the image of prisoners trapped in a cave who are only able to see

the shadows of the outside world cast on the cave walls as an allegory for our

present condition of mistaking for real what is in fact only a reflection of

ultimate reality.48 For Plato, as for , " At present all we see is the

baffling reflection of reality. "

Plato teaches that philosophers are those who are released from the cave to go

outside and see the reality of the dazzling light of day for themselves- " face

to face. " This phrase is a ritual formula of the Pagan Mysteries. In The Bacchae

we read: " He gave these Mysteries to me face to face. " 49 Lucius Apuleius writes

of his initiation: " I penetrated into the very presence of the gods below and

the gods above, where I worshiped face to face. " 50 Martyr acknowledges

that: " The aim of Platonism is to see God face to face. " 51 Plato describes how

in the temple of the " true earth, " which exists in the realm of ideas of which

this Earth is a mere image, " Communion with the gods occurs face to face. " 52

Why Philo and St. ? Because these are ~contemporaries of Christ.

philo 25 bce - 50 ce

paul 3 bce - 65 ce

1st Century ce: The diversity. Yet we look back, sorting people in pigeon holes

that didn't yet exist.

What I'm showing is the RANGE shown in that link to that history essay, a

perspective enormously important in seeing that in Christ's time, not only was

there no mass / well defined single movement of Christians, but this was also

true of Jews. Philo and illustrate the range of what happened in the

Diaspora.

" The Jesus Mysteries Thesis proposed that the Jews had created their own

version of the ancient Mysteries with Jesus as their Osiris-Dionysus. How could

this have happened? The traditional history paints a picture of the Jews as an

insular people, separate and distinct from the other Mediterranean cultures,

staunchly nationalistic and fanatically devoted to their religion, fiercely

loyal to their one god Jehovah and entirely hostile to the Paganism of their

neighbors. From this perspective, the idea that the Jews could possibly have

adopted the Pagan Mysteries seems unthinkable. And so it would be, if any of

this were true. " Freke & Gandy, Jesus Mysteries

Eyes have to open to see. That old dark glass still with us.

x's

deborah

The inspired speech of myth

begotten of the Daimon

reveals that the world

is the theater

of the periodic revolution of soul

[Guest guest]

I'm sure my response is out of context to what was being discussed

on JF. I was really responding to the importance of the concept of

daemons and geniuses. Why? Because those who hold scripture as the

word of God must claim God speaks through the writer. Who decides

when it's really God? The assemblers of the Bible, the Canon, gave

that power to themselves: the Church. What is the Church? Who

decides that, who decides true, false? Once this sort of

rationalization begins, it never ends. God is good, yet Job.

Questions of philosophy. Paradox. Thus Augustine and the hordes of

scholars addressing the problem of Evil.

The assigning of blame, the story of Lucifer. The Devil is a major

player in this religion, as important as the deity.

And now in our time, the concept of Evil is used to galvanize a

modern Holy War.

Making a devil, jinn, angel, genius a real, living, and / or alien

force within one's consciousness is a powerful form of control. It's

what Jung addresses, and why Jung is so dangerous to Fundamentalism.

It's also why we try to sense, understand (a great old word),

disrobe, de-veil, and work so hard to come to terms with archetype.

.... man derives his human personality only secondarily from what the

myths call his descent from the gods and heroes; or, to put it in

psychological terms, his consciousness of himself as a personality

derives primarily from the influence of quasi-personal archetypes.

~CGJUNG, in CW5, SYMBOLS OF TRANSFORMATION

The other issue is the history, the period that scripture was

created from and in. There's a movement with Historians at the

moment to place in a firm Jewish tradition. Fine. So *what was

that tradition in his time?* What did it mean to be a Jew? Many many

things at this time.

http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2004/2004-7.html

And if is firmly placed in some argument that results

inevitably in the ultimate Messiah Jesus, why is it that we have

firm evidence of his letters being doctored, sometimes even

reversing what he was saying. Only 7 of his New Testament letters

are not considered forgeries. Moreover, why does Apocrypha and

Pseudepigrapha attributed to him place him so firmly in mystical

magical traditions? As does the logic of his history. Why was he

claimed later as the leader of Gnostics in other texts?

That's the leap of faith I'm making, skipping entirely the arguments

for scripture itself. Scripture is the centerpiece of

Fundamentalism, after all. And the concepts of Daemons, the modes

of transmission of information from a Deity, is the axis it all

spins around.

LONG ago I read CS's Mere Christianity. I disagreed with him

somewhere in the first 10 pages. He could go on forever--which he

does--but he does it without me.

Influence re the Diaspora discussed in Freke and Gandy's Jesus

Mysteries:

If we can throw off the traditional picture of and look at the

evidence with an open mind this anti- rhetoric is

understandable, since his letters show distinct Gnostic and Pagan

influences. is a Jew who had embraced the ubiquitous Greek

culture of the times. He writes in Greek, his first language. He

quotes only from the Greek version of the Old Testament. His

ministry is to Pagan cities dominated by Greek culture.32 Of these,

Antioch was the center for the Mysteries of Adonis, Ephesus was a

center for the Mysteries of Attis, and Corinth was a center for the

Mysteries of Dionysus.33 was a native of Tarsus in Asia Minor,

which by his time had surpassed even Athens and andria to become

the major center of Pagan philosophy.3 " It was in Tarsus that the

Mysteries of Mithras had originated, so it would have been

unthinkable that would have been unaware of the remarkable

sim­

ilarities we have already explored between Christian doctrines and

the teachings of ­Mithraism.35

frequently uses terms and phrases from the Pagan Mysteries,

such as pneuma (spirit), gnosis (divine knowledge), doxa (glory),

sophia (wisdom), teleioi (the initiated), and so on.3 " He advises

his followers to " earnestly seek cater charismata. " 37 The

word " charismata " derives from the Mystery rnakarismos,

referring to the blessed nature of one who has seen the mysteries.38

He even calls himself a " Steward of the Mysteries of God, " 39 which

is the technical name for a priest in the Mysteries of Serapis.40

quotes the Pagan sage Aratus, who had lived in Tarsus several

cen­turies earlier, describing God " in whom we live, and move, and

have our being. " 41 He also teaches Mystery doctrines. " 42 Like

the Pagan sage Socrates, who was deemed wise because he knew he knew

nothing,43 teaches:

If someone thinks he knows something, he still doesn't know the

way he ought to know. 44

Just as Plato had written that we now only see reality " through

a glass dimly, " 45 so writes, " For now we see through a glass,

darkly; but then face to face. " 46

This famous passage from has also been translated:

At present all we see is the baffling reflection of reality; we are

like men looking at a landscape in a small mirror. The time will

come when we shall see reality whole and face to face.47

This translation clearly brings out the Platonic nature of 's

teachings. Plato had used the image of prisoners trapped in a cave

who are only able to see the shadows of the outside world cast on

the cave walls as an allegory for our present condition of mistaking

for real what is in fact only a reflection of ultimate reality.48

For Plato, as for , " At present all we see is the baffling

reflection of reality. "

Plato teaches that philosophers are those who are released from the

cave to go outside and see the reality of the dazzling light of day

for themselves— " face to face. " This phrase is a ritual

formula of the Pagan Mysteries. In The Bacchae we read: " He gave

these Mysteries to me face to face. " 49 Lucius Apuleius writes of his

initiation: " I penetrated into the very presence of the gods

below and the gods above, where I worshiped face to face. " 50

Martyr acknowledges that: " The aim of Platonism is to see God face

to face. " 51 Plato describes how in the temple of the " true

earth, " which exists in the realm of ideas of which this Earth is a

mere image, " Communion with the gods occurs face to face. " 52

Why Philo and St. ? Because these are ~contemporaries of Christ.

philo 25 bce - 50 ce

paul 3 bce - 65 ce

1st Century ce: The diversity. Yet we look back, sorting people in

pigeon holes that didn't yet exist.

What I'm showing is the RANGE shown in that link to that history

essay, a perspective enormously important in seeing that in Christ's

time, not only was there no mass / well defined single movement of

Christians, but this was also true of Jews. Philo and

illustrate the range of what happened in the Diaspora.

" The Jesus Mysteries Thesis proposed that the Jews had created their

own version of the ancient Mysteries with Jesus as their Osiris-

Dionysus. How could this have happened? The traditional history

paints a picture of the Jews as an insular people, separate and

distinct from the other Mediterranean cultures, staunchly

nationalistic and fanatically devoted to their religion, fiercely

loyal to their one god Jehovah and entirely hostile to the Paganism

of their neighbors. From this perspective, the idea that the Jews

could possibly have adopted the Pagan Mysteries seems unthinkable.

And so it would be, if any of this were true. " Freke & Gandy, Jesus

Mysteries

Eyes have to open to see. That old dark glass still with us.

x's

deborah

The inspired speech of myth

begotten of the Daimon

reveals that the world

is the theater

of the periodic revolution of soul

[Guest guest]

>>So good to " see " your voice again on JF again.>>

Dear old Greg.

>>I hope you won't mind my passing along your recent

post to Tim Freke, writer of THE JESUS MYSTERIES.

He'll be coming here to KC in early June (and staying

with us) for a lecture entitled:

FROM ANCIENT GNOSIS TO " HIP " GNOSIS

Wish you were here to join us.>>

Wouldn't I love to be there. (He lives in Glastonbury, I see. Glastonbury

East. !)

Thank you so much, yes. I'd be really interested in his thoughts. The

genius - daemon concepts, so forgotten, glossed over, mutated, (spindled,

folded, and generally mutilated), yet so important, not to mention

fascinating.

I remember somewhere in Nag Hammadi a ref to what sounds very like the

genius' natal star influence. I'll look for it. Jung would have known it

immediately.

>> I'm sure he'll be

heartened to see how his books are stimulating such

wonderful contributions as yours here. If he has a

comment, I'll share it with the list. I know he and

Gandy are working on a new book so he may be too

preoccupied to answer soon.>>

What a great job they've done, and exactly now when it's so needed. With

Historians, it's the view. Somehow, though, it never gets beyond to the

public. So much being lost forever in Iraq, other sites flooded over. But to

see the reality behind the evidence we DO have... it's critical at this time

when, as you say, a literalist fundamentalism has so much power.

I have some links and perspective on the passion here:

http://jungcircle.com/muse/lettersclarissa.html

(bottom third of page.)

>>All the best dear friend; we miss you back on the

plains!

Big hugs,

Greg>>

Big hugs back at you, you were always so good to us. (But that's you.)

Please go commune a moment with the Caravaggio and the many Three Graces

there at -Atkins for me.

They have a number of Assyrian Genus figures there. You see them when you

first go in. (Always wanted Phoebe to see this exhibit.)

http://www.echoesofeternity.umkc.edu/

great Egypt site: http://www.nelson-atkins.org/eternalegypt/default.htm

x's

deborah