Guest guest Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 Hi Marcia What about Cinchona? C _____ From: ukherbal-list [mailto:ukherbal-list ] On Behalf Of Marcia Dixon Sent: 02 June 2009 02:32 To: herb list Subject: chronic diarrhoea Hello all, I have a pt, late 70's suffering from chronic diarrhoea, he has had all the tests done, barium swallow, endoscopy, parisitology, etc, all back neg. etc some diverticulosis, and gastritis. Onset 'maybe longer than a year'. It prevents him from sleeping and he sometimes gets up in the night every 1/2 hour for a period of 4 hours. He has a bm during the day 1 every 4 hours. He has lost significant weight. I find it difficult to imagine all his tests have come back normal with such extreme symptoms. I have had him on a mixture composed of antispasmodics and astringents. 7.5 mL QID plus tsp marshmallow rt pwd QID, and probiotics [i have just asked him to increase to 10mL QID] For the next few days, but I am seriously consider a complete change to the approach as after nearly 3 weeks, there has been NO change whatsoever. I started to thumb through some ayurvedic books and Frawley recommends pwd nutmeg 1-2 tsp before meals. This seems heroic, but I think I/ and the pt are willing to try this out. Just a bit concerned about dosages for geriatrics as I don't want to over do it, especially when he is in a weakend state. If anyone has any exerience/ advice on this matter it would be much appreciated. M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 I presume that you have investigated his diet? Has he eliminated wheat and dairy? Tried any other eliminations? I might even suggest a fast, rest the GIT entirely for a period of time. Since he's starving anyway, it can't do much harm if it's short and supervised. Even a dry fast for 24 hours. Might be helpful? Then introduce white rice, small nourishing foods like seaweed, nuts and seeds in small amounts, mushrooms, small cubes of protein, sprouts. No fruit and veg at first. Little and often, frequent small doses of food. Introduce gently astringent herbs as teas. No tinctures! Agrimony, of course. Chamomile. Frequent sips. Nettle is nourishing, a good rooting herb, for structure and strength, form and balance. And his electrolytes will be a mess. Miso soup, or just the paste mixed into white rice. The main thing is to slow (or better, stop) the flow. Then to heal and mend. Then to treat. You can't treat if all your medicine is flowing through. Capsules of althea, or (if he has his own teeth) he can chew the root. It's reassuring that the tests are all NAD. Don't get caught up trying to find out what's wrong. Treat the patient, treat what's in front of you. And what is he expressing? The somatised emotions and fears seem relevant here. What is " flowing away? " Is he fearful that he is on the downslope of his life? Is he seeing friends and loved ones " flowing away " ? Money? Also body work: foot massage, hand massage. Is he starved of physical touch? Maybe he needs a good long gentle hug. Don't forget herb baths as a way to deliver medicine. If he's not sleeping, he is exhausted. This too will be detrimental to his healing. Support his kidneys. If all fluid is going through his GIT, then how are his kidneys doing? Hope some of this helps Cristina >Hello all, > >I have a pt, late 70's suffering from chronic diarrhoea, he has had >all the tests done, barium swallow, endoscopy, parisitology, etc, >all back neg. etc some diverticulosis, and gastritis. >Onset 'maybe longer than a year'. It prevents him from sleeping and >he sometimes gets up in the night every 1/2 hour for a period of 4 >hours. He has a bm during the day 1 every 4 hours. >He has lost significant weight. >I find it difficult to imagine all his tests have come back normal >with such extreme symptoms. >I have had him on a mixture composed of antispasmodics and >astringents. 7.5 mL QID plus tsp marshmallow rt pwd QID, and >probiotics [i have just asked him to increase to 10mL QID] For the >next few days, but I am seriously consider a complete change to the >approach as after nearly 3 weeks, there has been NO change >whatsoever. >I started to thumb through some ayurvedic books and Frawley >recommends pwd nutmeg 1-2 tsp before meals. This seems heroic, but I >think I/ and the pt are willing to try this out. >Just a bit concerned about dosages for geriatrics as I don't want to >over do it, especially when he is in a weakend state. >If anyone has any exerience/ advice on this matter it would be much >appreciated. > >M > > > > > >__________________________________________________________ >Windows Live helps you keep up with all your friends, in one place. ><http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9660826>http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=966082\ 6 > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 Has he been tested for coeliac disease? Helen chronic diarrhoea Hello all, I have a pt, late 70's suffering from chronic diarrhoea, he has had all the tests done, barium swallow, endoscopy, parisitology, etc, all back neg. etc some diverticulosis, and gastritis. Onset 'maybe longer than a year'. It prevents him from sleeping and he sometimes gets up in the night every 1/2 hour for a period of 4 hours. He has a bm during the day 1 every 4 hours. He has lost significant weight. I find it difficult to imagine all his tests have come back normal with such extreme symptoms. I have had him on a mixture composed of antispasmodics and astringents. 7.5 mL QID plus tsp marshmallow rt pwd QID, and probiotics [i have just asked him to increase to 10mL QID] For the next few days, but I am seriously consider a complete change to the approach as after nearly 3 weeks, there has been NO change whatsoever. I started to thumb through some ayurvedic books and Frawley recommends pwd nutmeg 1-2 tsp before meals. This seems heroic, but I think I/ and the pt are willing to try this out. Just a bit concerned about dosages for geriatrics as I don't want to over do it, especially when he is in a weakend state. If anyone has any exerience/ advice on this matter it would be much appreciated. M __________________________________________________________ Windows Live helps you keep up with all your friends, in one place. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9660826 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 hello Marcia I have done a bit of research on nutmeg, and used it for insomnia on many patients - I found that nutmeg is a very useful herb in the treatment of insomnia, and if used in doses up to 6-7g daily has no real adverse effects. It would appear that true poisonings have only occurred with much higher doses of at least 20g, and mostly much higher than that. It is quite astringent, and good for anxiety so might be useful - although I would maybe add it to the many good suggestions from Cristina Cromer rather than use it alone regards Herbert > > > > > Hello all, > > I have a pt, late 70's suffering from chronic diarrhoea...... > > I started to thumb through some ayurvedic books and Frawley recommends pwd > nutmeg 1-2 tsp before meals. This seems heroic, but I think I/ and the pt > are willing to try this out. > Just a bit concerned about dosages for geriatrics as I don't want to over do > it, especially when he is in a weakend state. > If anyone has any exerience/ advice on this matter it would be much > appreciated. > > M > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 Hi Marcia, I had a patient with bad diarrhoea who was getting wary of going out. I was practising at the time above a health shop and without proper dispensary to hand so used Bioforce's Molkosan (a whey treatment for dysbiosis) - it worked wonders for my patient. May be worth a try? Schia Schia MNIMH MIMHO Medical Herbalist Cambridge www.cambridgeherbalist.org.uk Marcia Dixon wrote: > > > > > Hello all, > > I have a pt, late 70's suffering from chronic diarrhoea, he has had > all the tests done, barium swallow, endoscopy, parisitology, etc, all > back neg. etc some diverticulosis, and gastritis. > Onset 'maybe longer than a year'. It prevents him from sleeping and he > sometimes gets up in the night every 1/2 hour for a period of 4 hours. > He has a bm during the day 1 every 4 hours. > He has lost significant weight. > I find it difficult to imagine all his tests have come back normal > with such extreme symptoms. > I have had him on a mixture composed of antispasmodics and > astringents. 7.5 mL QID plus tsp marshmallow rt pwd QID, and > probiotics [i have just asked him to increase to 10mL QID] For the > next few days, but I am seriously consider a complete change to the > approach as after nearly 3 weeks, there has been NO change whatsoever. > I started to thumb through some ayurvedic books and Frawley recommends > pwd nutmeg 1-2 tsp before meals. This seems heroic, but I think I/ and > the pt are willing to try this out. > Just a bit concerned about dosages for geriatrics as I don't want to > over do it, especially when he is in a weakend state. > If anyone has any exerience/ advice on this matter it would be much > appreciated. > > M > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > Windows Live helps you keep up with all your friends, in one place. > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9660826 > <http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9660826> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2009 Report Share Posted June 3, 2009 Keffir curds would also be effective ri Kingston Re: chronic diarrhoea Hi Marcia, I had a patient with bad diarrhoea who was getting wary of going out. I was practising at the time above a health shop and without proper dispensary to hand so used Bioforce's Molkosan (a whey treatment for dysbiosis) - it worked wonders for my patient. May be worth a try? Schia Schia MNIMH MIMHO Medical Herbalist Cambridge www.cambridgeherbalist.org.uk Marcia Dixon wrote: > > > > > Hello all, > > I have a pt, late 70's suffering from chronic diarrhoea, he has had > all the tests done, barium swallow, endoscopy, parisitology, etc, all > back neg. etc some diverticulosis, and gastritis. > Onset 'maybe longer than a year'. It prevents him from sleeping and he > sometimes gets up in the night every 1/2 hour for a period of 4 hours. > He has a bm during the day 1 every 4 hours. > He has lost significant weight. > I find it difficult to imagine all his tests have come back normal > with such extreme symptoms. > I have had him on a mixture composed of antispasmodics and > astringents. 7.5 mL QID plus tsp marshmallow rt pwd QID, and > probiotics [i have just asked him to increase to 10mL QID] For the > next few days, but I am seriously consider a complete change to the > approach as after nearly 3 weeks, there has been NO change whatsoever. > I started to thumb through some ayurvedic books and Frawley recommends > pwd nutmeg 1-2 tsp before meals. This seems heroic, but I think I/ and > the pt are willing to try this out. > Just a bit concerned about dosages for geriatrics as I don't want to > over do it, especially when he is in a weakend state. > If anyone has any exerience/ advice on this matter it would be much > appreciated. > > M > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > Windows Live helps you keep up with all your friends, in one place. > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9660826 > <http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9660826> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2009 Report Share Posted June 3, 2009 Thank you so much to everyone for their responses. It is always great to see people describing types of extracts and amounts for administration as it adds another dimension to the discussion. This pt is particularly challenging. Mostly because he is an old school x military man. IE not very forthcoming. I have done dietary investigations, although perhaps not as thoroughly as I can ie, getting him to keep a diet diary. Over the past 10 wks he has had periods of fasting, and has avoided foods known to be irritants, in part because of the gi upset, and in part because dental surgery has prevented him from eating normal solid food.And in part because I have asked him to do so (he is very compliant). So the marshmallow root chewing is out, but I am interested in why you think chewing on a root or taking capsules is better than taking pwd? I wasn't sure about your question about how his 'kidneys' are doing? He has also had surgery 12 wks ago or so to remove a large amount of 'aggressively growing tissue' from his prostate. His urine flow has normalized and the pain from the surgery has passed now. M To: ukherbal-list From: crissi@... Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 11:15:11 +0100 Subject: Re: chronic diarrhoea I presume that you have investigated his diet? Has he eliminated wheat and dairy? Tried any other eliminations? I might even suggest a fast, rest the GIT entirely for a period of time. Since he's starving anyway, it can't do much harm if it's short and supervised. Even a dry fast for 24 hours. Might be helpful? Then introduce white rice, small nourishing foods like seaweed, nuts and seeds in small amounts, mushrooms, small cubes of protein, sprouts. No fruit and veg at first. Little and often, frequent small doses of food. Introduce gently astringent herbs as teas. No tinctures! Agrimony, of course. Chamomile. Frequent sips. Nettle is nourishing, a good rooting herb, for structure and strength, form and balance. And his electrolytes will be a mess. Miso soup, or just the paste mixed into white rice. The main thing is to slow (or better, stop) the flow. Then to heal and mend. Then to treat. You can't treat if all your medicine is flowing through. Capsules of althea, or (if he has his own teeth) he can chew the root. It's reassuring that the tests are all NAD. Don't get caught up trying to find out what's wrong. Treat the patient, treat what's in front of you. And what is he expressing? The somatised emotions and fears seem relevant here. What is " flowing away? " Is he fearful that he is on the downslope of his life? Is he seeing friends and loved ones " flowing away " ? Money? Also body work: foot massage, hand massage. Is he starved of physical touch? Maybe he needs a good long gentle hug. Don't forget herb baths as a way to deliver medicine. If he's not sleeping, he is exhausted. This too will be detrimental to his healing. Support his kidneys. If all fluid is going through his GIT, then how are his kidneys doing? Hope some of this helps Cristina >Hello all, > >I have a pt, late 70's suffering from chronic diarrhoea, he has had >all the tests done, barium swallow, endoscopy, parisitology, etc, >all back neg. etc some diverticulosis, and gastritis. >Onset 'maybe longer than a year'. It prevents him from sleeping and >he sometimes gets up in the night every 1/2 hour for a period of 4 >hours. He has a bm during the day 1 every 4 hours. >He has lost significant weight. >I find it difficult to imagine all his tests have come back normal >with such extreme symptoms. >I have had him on a mixture composed of antispasmodics and >astringents. 7.5 mL QID plus tsp marshmallow rt pwd QID, and >probiotics [i have just asked him to increase to 10mL QID] For the >next few days, but I am seriously consider a complete change to the >approach as after nearly 3 weeks, there has been NO change >whatsoever. >I started to thumb through some ayurvedic books and Frawley >recommends pwd nutmeg 1-2 tsp before meals. This seems heroic, but I >think I/ and the pt are willing to try this out. >Just a bit concerned about dosages for geriatrics as I don't want to >over do it, especially when he is in a weakend state. >If anyone has any exerience/ advice on this matter it would be much >appreciated. > >M > > > > > >__________________________________________________________ >Windows Live helps you keep up with all your friends, in one place. ><http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9660826>http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=966082\ 6 > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2009 Report Share Posted June 3, 2009 I wonder whether Manuka honey might be effective? It's reported to be useful for H pylori, gastroenteritis and diarrhoea; it would also be nutritious and easy for him to eat. Expensive, but might be worth a try if he can afford it. ie Subject: RE: chronic diarrhoea To: " herb list " <ukherbal-list > Date: Wednesday, 3 June, 2009, 1:02 PM Thank you so much to everyone for their responses. It is always great to see people describing types of extracts and amounts for administration as it adds another dimension to the discussion. This pt is particularly challenging. Mostly because he is an old school x military man. IE not very forthcoming. I have done dietary investigations, although perhaps not as thoroughly as I can ie, getting him to keep a diet diary. Over the past 10 wks he has had periods of fasting, and has avoided foods known to be irritants, in part because of the gi upset, and in part because dental surgery has prevented him from eating normal solid food.And in part because I have asked him to do so (he is very compliant). So the marshmallow root chewing is out, but I am interested in why you think chewing on a root or taking capsules is better than taking pwd? I wasn't sure about your question about how his 'kidneys' are doing? He has also had surgery 12 wks ago or so to remove a large amount of 'aggressively growing tissue' from his prostate. His urine flow has normalized and the pain from the surgery has passed now. M To: ukherbal-list From: crissi@... Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 11:15:11 +0100 Subject: Re: chronic diarrhoea                     I presume that you have investigated his diet? Has he eliminated wheat and dairy? Tried any other eliminations? I might even suggest a fast, rest the GIT entirely for a period of time. Since he's starving anyway, it can't do much harm if it's short and supervised. Even a dry fast for 24 hours. Might be helpful? Then introduce white rice, small nourishing foods like seaweed, nuts and seeds in small amounts, mushrooms, small cubes of protein, sprouts. No fruit and veg at first. Little and often, frequent small doses of food. Introduce gently astringent herbs as teas. No tinctures! Agrimony, of course. Chamomile. Frequent sips. Nettle is nourishing, a good rooting herb, for structure and strength, form and balance. And his electrolytes will be a mess. Miso soup, or just the paste mixed into white rice. The main thing is to slow (or better, stop) the flow. Then to heal and mend. Then to treat. You can't treat if all your medicine is flowing through. Capsules of althea, or (if he has his own teeth) he can chew the root. It's reassuring that the tests are all NAD. Don't get caught up trying to find out what's wrong. Treat the patient, treat what's in front of you. And what is he expressing? The somatised emotions and fears seem relevant here. What is " flowing away? " Is he fearful that he is on the downslope of his life? Is he seeing friends and loved ones " flowing away " ? Money? Also body work: foot massage, hand massage. Is he starved of physical touch? Maybe he needs a good long gentle hug. Don't forget herb baths as a way to deliver medicine. If he's not sleeping, he is exhausted. This too will be detrimental to his healing. Support his kidneys. If all fluid is going through his GIT, then how are his kidneys doing? Hope some of this helps Cristina >Hello all, > >I have a pt, late 70's suffering from chronic diarrhoea, he has had >all the tests done, barium swallow, endoscopy, parisitology, etc, >all back neg. etc some diverticulosis, and gastritis. >Onset 'maybe longer than a year'. It prevents him from sleeping and >he sometimes gets up in the night every 1/2 hour for a period of 4 >hours. He has a bm during the day 1 every 4 hours. >He has lost significant weight. >I find it difficult to imagine all his tests have come back normal >with such extreme symptoms. >I have had him on a mixture composed of antispasmodics and >astringents. 7.5 mL QID plus tsp marshmallow rt pwd QID, and >probiotics [i have just asked him to increase to 10mL QID] For the >next few days, but I am seriously consider a complete change to the >approach as after nearly 3 weeks, there has been NO change >whatsoever. >I started to thumb through some ayurvedic books and Frawley >recommends pwd nutmeg 1-2 tsp before meals. This seems heroic, but I >think I/ and the pt are willing to try this out. >Just a bit concerned about dosages for geriatrics as I don't want to >over do it, especially when he is in a weakend state. >If anyone has any exerience/ advice on this matter it would be much >appreciated. > >M > > > > > >__________________________________________________________ >Windows Live helps you keep up with all your friends, in one place. ><http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9660826>http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=966082\ 6 > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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