Guest guest Posted October 13, 2000 Report Share Posted October 13, 2000 In a message dated 10/13/2000 9:02:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rmushko@... writes: << Out of lurking to mention that I don't mind at all hearing what doesn't work. In fact, it's nice to get a warning. If something doesn't work for a bunch of people, let's not keep it a secret. I'd rather get the warning--even if it's in a negative way--than to have to find out the info by trial and error. >> Glad your posting, but I think the point was about bashing, not a mere relating of what doesn't work for you. the idea is not to ridicule someone because they don't follow your way of dm control or eating, thats all. If someone says, for instance, LC isn't for me, not working, so I prefer ADA because its helping me, is one thing, but to bash anyone who doesn't follow your way of thinking just isn't kind and not good netiquette. Just my take on it, correct me if I'm wrong, terri carol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2000 Report Share Posted October 13, 2000 Thanks, Carol. That's exactly what I meant. It's like saying, " The purple WOE just didn't work for me, " as opposed to " The purple WOE is terrible and bad for everyone. " Maybe putting it that way makes more sense. Re: Positive vs. Negative In a message dated 10/13/2000 9:02:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rmushko@... writes: << Out of lurking to mention that I don't mind at all hearing what doesn't work. In fact, it's nice to get a warning. If something doesn't work for a bunch of people, let's not keep it a secret. I'd rather get the warning--even if it's in a negative way--than to have to find out the info by trial and error. >> Glad your posting, but I think the point was about bashing, not a mere relating of what doesn't work for you. the idea is not to ridicule someone because they don't follow your way of dm control or eating, thats all. If someone says, for instance, LC isn't for me, not working, so I prefer ADA because its helping me, is one thing, but to bash anyone who doesn't follow your way of thinking just isn't kind and not good netiquette. Just my take on it, correct me if I'm wrong, terri carol eGroups Sponsor Public website for Diabetes International: http://www.msteri.com/diabetes-info/diabetes_int Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2000 Report Share Posted October 13, 2000 Carol, snip I prefer ADA because its helping me Can you drop the other shoe Carol, your medications, how it helps you? Sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2000 Report Share Posted October 13, 2000 Teri wrote: << Thanks, Carol. That's exactly what I meant. It's like saying, " The purple WOE just didn't work for me, " as opposed to " The purple WOE is terrible and bad for everyone. " >> I want to emphasize something. Sam Levy thinks the danger is fats; I think the danger is carbs. And yet Sam and I do fine together, because Sam is an old warrior ... He's 72 years old and has battled a major illness for many years and figured out on his own what works for him. With an average post-diagnosis life expectancy of 15 years for us, I think we should all tip our hats to Sam. Sam and I manage to have differing viewpoints, based on our own experiences, and yet our conversations have been cordial and frank. I have been troubled all day because I have some major problems in my own life currently, and yet I felt compelled to return to the group to post rejoinders to Thornton's alarmist posts. I am disturbed that Teri , our fearless leader, feels compelled to post regular objections when people talk about the dangers of a high-carbohydrate diet, and yet was allowed to post and post (while I was out of the picture) that low-carb diets - the traditional treatment for diabetics over the history of the disease - is a " fad diet " ... " dangerous " ... there are " many years of epidemiological studies " , etc. It's hard enough being a diabetic, without being attacked by fellow diabetics. I spent a painfully long time in misc.health.diabetes, being slagged by high-carbers. It would be a shame to see this group succumb to the same syndrome. Teri, I recommended you to as the new Fearless Leader, knowing your diabetes was not yet severe enough that you understood just how important dietary changes will be to you in your future, because I had faith in your ability to be open-minded about treatment options. None of us is trying to do others in ... we're just in different places, health-wise. Please don't disappoint me by continuing to criticize people who mention the danger of high carbohydrate intake, which is what defines our very disease, while allowing high-carb afficianados to run rampant in the group to the extent that I must set aside my own health and other problems to rejoin the group to try to counter their alarmist statements. Susie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2000 Report Share Posted October 13, 2000 Ahem. First of all, I would always try to ask ANYONE who made a blanket statement of a medically accepted treatment being unacceptable to stop it. If I missed asking to stop doing that it's, quite honestly, because his long, involved posts exhaust me, and I generally just skim through them and move on. All I am doing is trying to be sure that we all remember YMMV. I'm not going to mention names because if I do that there's no reason people should trust me to email me privately again. Suffice it to say that I have received a couple of emails asking where the YMMV philosophy had gone. SO, I just put it on myself when I posted. BIG mistake. Susie, I'm sorry if I've caused you to put your health issues aside and resub to the list because I'm not doing what I'm supposed to be doing. The last thing I want to do here is disappoint anyone. To be honest y'all have me so damned confused I could just spit. Because of everything all of you keep telling me about carbs and diabetes, I finally insisted that my PCP refer me to an endo. He did an A1c, lipid profile, 24-hour urine, c-peptides, and probably more BEFORE my appt with him and his CDE. (appointment was set like this because of prior diabetes diagnosis and education) They reviewed my medical records, test results -- including A1c of 5.4 -- and my personal logs. We talked about exchanges versus low-carb. We talked about the long-term implications of both. Their verdict: " Considering your current control and test results, do not make any changes in your current regimen. " NOW, can any of y'all give me just one good reason NOT to be frustrated and confused? Re: Positive vs. Negative Teri wrote: << Thanks, Carol. That's exactly what I meant. It's like saying, " The purple WOE just didn't work for me, " as opposed to " The purple WOE is terrible and bad for everyone. " >> I want to emphasize something. Sam Levy thinks the danger is fats; I think the danger is carbs. And yet Sam and I do fine together, because Sam is an old warrior ... He's 72 years old and has battled a major illness for many years and figured out on his own what works for him. With an average post-diagnosis life expectancy of 15 years for us, I think we should all tip our hats to Sam. Sam and I manage to have differing viewpoints, based on our own experiences, and yet our conversations have been cordial and frank. I have been troubled all day because I have some major problems in my own life currently, and yet I felt compelled to return to the group to post rejoinders to Thornton's alarmist posts. I am disturbed that Teri , our fearless leader, feels compelled to post regular objections when people talk about the dangers of a high-carbohydrate diet, and yet was allowed to post and post (while I was out of the picture) that low-carb diets - the traditional treatment for diabetics over the history of the disease - is a " fad diet " ... " dangerous " ... there are " many years of epidemiological studies " , etc. It's hard enough being a diabetic, without being attacked by fellow diabetics. I spent a painfully long time in misc.health.diabetes, being slagged by high-carbers. It would be a shame to see this group succumb to the same syndrome. Teri, I recommended you to as the new Fearless Leader, knowing your diabetes was not yet severe enough that you understood just how important dietary changes will be to you in your future, because I had faith in your ability to be open-minded about treatment options. None of us is trying to do others in ... we're just in different places, health-wise. Please don't disappoint me by continuing to criticize people who mention the danger of high carbohydrate intake, which is what defines our very disease, while allowing high-carb afficianados to run rampant in the group to the extent that I must set aside my own health and other problems to rejoin the group to try to counter their alarmist statements. Susie eGroups Sponsor Public website for Diabetes International: http://www.msteri.com/diabetes-info/diabetes_int Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2000 Report Share Posted October 13, 2000 Anne wrote: << Are you telling me that I should only expect to live to 54? I want to know where your info came from... that is scary. >> Oh no, grrrl ... that is based on statistics which are some years old. Until just a few years ago, diabetics on insulin were mostly using a 70/30 fixed combo, and type 2's were using sulfonylureas ... or sulfs and 70/30. Testing kits weren't as good, and people weren't encouraged to maintain such tight control. It was customary for doctors to tell patients who had glucose reads of 150+ that their control was " good. " It's all about " tight control. " That's the ticket. If we don't respect the 800-pound gorilla called Diabetes, yes ... we can't expect to live very long. But the people who are smart enough and care enough to join our online group and other good groups don't need to fear that they're going to die soon of needless complications. That's what they are ... NEEDLESS complications. All we need to is educate ourselves, and pay attention to what our bodies tell us. I'm pretty sure I've been diabetic all my life. I'm 54 years old, and I'm still doing fine. In fact, my health is better now than it was 10 years ago. Susie ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2000 Report Share Posted October 13, 2000 Nothin' like sittin' on the back porch, with a .243, pickin' off pine cones at 200 yards, and findin' that you finally got those handloads just right. :-) And the smell of Hoppe's on a pile of old swabs? Makes me smile. Jim Susie wrote: > Rob and I have been sitting here for two hours, cleaning our guns .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2000 Report Share Posted October 13, 2000 Jim, ever shoot crows on the snow with a Hornet with a scope? We never found anything but feathers and feet and bills. We were dumb kids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 14, 2000 Report Share Posted October 14, 2000 Nope. Crows and prairie dogs with a .220 Swift. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 14, 2000 Report Share Posted October 14, 2000 In a message dated 00-10-13 22:58:46 EDT, you write: << I could spend my days doing other things ... and I have in fact neglected the house, my appearance, and my relationship with Rob in order to help other diabetics. >> Well, gosh Susie, you can definitely neglect the house...maybe your appearance...but for goodness sake don't neglect Rob! We all appreciate your help but you gotta put him first, Before diabetics! V. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 14, 2000 Report Share Posted October 14, 2000 Ann, don't be scared...I think Susie was referring to diabetics who don't care for themselves. The ones who are in denial, who don't test, don't eat properly, don't exercise because it takes a long time for these symptoms to appear and lots of diabetics just don't want to think about it so they ignore it. Too late they learn what they could have done to prevent those problems. Too many diabetics still think that way, unfortunately. But a lot of us don't. And we'll beat that 15-year statistic, too. Vicki In a message dated 00-10-13 23:00:57 EDT, you write: << Are you telling me that I should only expect to live to 54? I want to know where your info came from... that is scary. Anne <snip> > With an average > post-diagnosis life expectancy of 15 years for us, I think we > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 14, 2000 Report Share Posted October 14, 2000 I think you're pretty diplomatic, Susie! V. In a message dated 00-10-14 18:03:41 EDT, you write: << And that's the bottom line for all of us, Teri grrrl ... Your blood test results are fine; your HbA1c is fine ... Just stay the course. Our bodies are in different places, and some of us in the group have to eat differently than others in order to try to match your excellent results. So all we're seeing here is one diabetic saying, " I must eat like this to get good numbers, " and another one, with a healthier pancreas, lower weight, etc., replying, " Oh no ... I don't have to eat like that at all. " >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 14, 2000 Report Share Posted October 14, 2000 In a message dated 00-10-14 18:12:04 EDT, you write: << Things just keep changing. >> Yup, that's life... V. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 14, 2000 Report Share Posted October 14, 2000 In a message dated 00-10-14 18:47:17 EDT, you write: << nd if we maintain our numbers within those Normal Ranges, we should expect to be among those healthy old farts who get to enjoy their retirement years. >> ....and mine are only 2 years 2 months off! Sure lookin' forard to them! V. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 14, 2000 Report Share Posted October 14, 2000 In a message dated 00-10-14 20:49:10 EDT, you write: << She's 21, around 122lbs, and 5'7 " . >> Well, Dave, she's sure not overweight. On the other hand, one doesn't have to be overweight to have diabetes (I'm sure not!) I think it's a good idea to have her checked...let us know how it comes out. Vicki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 14, 2000 Report Share Posted October 14, 2000 Ok, Sis Susie. I've at least checked the various methods of management with both primary care doc and an endo. The endo said that though he'd be glad to see me, he didn't see any need. I told him that was fine, thank you very much. I'll just stick with my PCP, and keep the number of docs down. I have no doubt that my WOE will evovle over the years. Things just keep changing. hugs, Teri Re: Positive vs. Negative << All I am doing is trying to be sure that we all remember YMMV. I'm not going to mention names because if I do that there's no reason people should trust me to email me privately again. Suffice it to say that I have received a couple of emails asking where the YMMV philosophy had gone. SO, I just put it on myself when I posted. BIG mistake. >> You are doing a fine job, Teri. You're always on the hot seat. I'm not at all diplomatic, and would be calling everybody a poo-poo face in no time if I were in your shoes. << They reviewed my medical records, test results -- including A1c of 5.4 -- and my personal logs. We talked about exchanges versus low-carb. We talked about the long-term implications of both. Their verdict: " Considering your current control and test results, do not make any changes in your current regimen. " >> And that's the bottom line for all of us, Teri grrrl ... Your blood test results are fine; your HbA1c is fine ... Just stay the course. Our bodies are in different places, and some of us in the group have to eat differently than others in order to try to match your excellent results. So all we're seeing here is one diabetic saying, " I must eat like this to get good numbers, " and another one, with a healthier pancreas, lower weight, etc., replying, " Oh no ... I don't have to eat like that at all. " Susie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 14, 2000 Report Share Posted October 14, 2000 << All I am doing is trying to be sure that we all remember YMMV. I'm not going to mention names because if I do that there's no reason people should trust me to email me privately again. Suffice it to say that I have received a couple of emails asking where the YMMV philosophy had gone. SO, I just put it on myself when I posted. BIG mistake. >> You are doing a fine job, Teri. You're always on the hot seat. I'm not at all diplomatic, and would be calling everybody a poo-poo face in no time if I were in your shoes. << They reviewed my medical records, test results -- including A1c of 5.4 -- and my personal logs. We talked about exchanges versus low-carb. We talked about the long-term implications of both. Their verdict: " Considering your current control and test results, do not make any changes in your current regimen. " >> And that's the bottom line for all of us, Teri grrrl ... Your blood test results are fine; your HbA1c is fine ... Just stay the course. Our bodies are in different places, and some of us in the group have to eat differently than others in order to try to match your excellent results. So all we're seeing here is one diabetic saying, " I must eat like this to get good numbers, " and another one, with a healthier pancreas, lower weight, etc., replying, " Oh no ... I don't have to eat like that at all. " Susie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 14, 2000 Report Share Posted October 14, 2000 Jim Hartmann wrote: << Nothin' like sittin' on the back porch, with a .243, pickin' off pine cones at 200 yards, and findin' that you finally got those handloads just right. :-) And the smell of Hoppe's on a pile of old swabs? Makes me smile. >> That made me laugh, Jim! I can picture myself in one of those fancy aromatherapy shops, requesting a bottle of " Hoppes No. 9. " Susie ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 14, 2000 Report Share Posted October 14, 2000 Vicki wrote: << Ann, don't be scared...I think Susie was referring to diabetics who don't care for themselves. The ones who are in denial, who don't test, don't eat properly, don't exercise because it takes a long time for these symptoms to appear and lots of diabetics just don't want to think about it so they ignore it. Too late they learn what they could have done to prevent those problems. Too many diabetics still think that way, unfortunately. But a lot of us don't. And we'll beat that 15-year statistic, too. >> If there's one thing we hear diabetics with complications say, " I wish I could back and do it over again. I would have taken my diabetes more seriously. I would have taken better care of myself. " Some complications are reversible, but not all of them. The blindness seems irreversible. And even Dr. Bernstein, who is a fanatic about maintaining tight control, reports that he was not able to reverse damage to his feet caused by a quarter-century of iffy control. As Vicki says, we are the New Diabetics. We have the internet for research and info exchange, and we have better testing methods and better medicines and insulins. Studies look backward ... " This diabetic suffered complications after so many years of reaqdings in this range. " We won't know how we are doing for some years yet. But over many years Normal Ranges have been worked out that seem to predict good health and a long life, and if we maintain our numbers within those Normal Ranges, we should expect to be among those healthy old farts who get to enjoy their retirement years. Susie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 14, 2000 Report Share Posted October 14, 2000 , that was a really lovely post. I find the internet is an ideal place to give and receive experiences of diabetics. I think I flub when talking to my own sisters because I'm so " in your face. " On the internet, people can delete my messages, or postpone them until they've taken a Valium. Hahahaha .... I do hope things will work out so that you can help your neighbors. It's sad to picture a diabetic feeling so hopeless that he isolates himself and figures he'll just drink himself to death. If you get a chance to talk to him, I hope there will be an opportunity to tell him that, while type 2 is strongly hereditary, there is very little evidence of type 1 running in families. wrote: << The internet is one place where we can feel less isolated in dealing with this disease and its complications. Hopefully I will meet her one day and we can exchange war stories, and help each other. And in the meantime, by reaching out to others via the internet, either to help or to reach out to help, is time well spent. >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 14, 2000 Report Share Posted October 14, 2000 Carol wrote: << Are you saying you get involved with IRL (in real life ) dm groups, etc or is it just the computer? >> Just the computer, plus my own family. But I do lots of e-mail one-on-ones, in addition to three online groups. Susie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 14, 2000 Report Share Posted October 14, 2000 Susie wrote: > > << All I am doing is trying to be sure that we all remember YMMV. I'm not > going to mention names because if I do that there's no reason people should > trust me to email me privately again. Suffice it to say that I have received > a couple of emails asking where the YMMV philosophy had gone. SO, I just put > it on myself when I posted. BIG mistake. >> > > You are doing a fine job, Teri. You're always on the hot seat. I'm not at > all diplomatic, and would be calling everybody a poo-poo face in no time if > I were in your shoes. > > << They reviewed my medical records, test results -- including A1c of 5.4 -- > and my personal logs. We talked about exchanges versus low-carb. We talked > about the long-term implications of both. Their verdict: " Considering your > current control and test results, do not make any changes in your current > regimen. " >> > > And that's the bottom line for all of us, Teri grrrl ... Your blood test > results are fine; your HbA1c is fine ... Just stay the course. Our bodies > are in different places, and some of us in the group have to eat differently > than others in order to try to match your excellent results. So all we're > seeing here is one diabetic saying, " I must eat like this to get good > numbers, " and another one, with a healthier pancreas, lower weight, etc., > replying, " Oh no ... I don't have to eat like that at all. " > > Susie I'm like Teri, I try to limit carbs, but there are times that I just don't. I eat my tootsie pop, or french toast now and then. Today was a birthday celebration for my wife, and two of my daughters brought a cake. (They're 20 & 21), Of course I would not go without a piece of cake. I tested at 143 & 150 1 1/2 hour after eating it. I also tested everyone else, of course. My wife was 105, my 21 yr old was 121, and my 20 year old (slim and trim) was 172. I tested again--175. I waited 20 minutes and she tested 187 & 195. (taken on different hands, but well within the 20% meter accuracy--Fasttake).. So, she gets to make an appointment to have things checked out. They never seem to take the word of someone who tested with their home meter, but all those readings can't be that far off. Everyone is asking me, well what else could she have but diabetes? She's 21, around 122lbs, and 5'7 " . -- Dave -- Saturday, October 14, 2000 t2 8/98 Glucophage ICQ 10312009 «» DavOr's daily aphorism: Any fool can criticize, condemn, & complain. And most do. -- Visit my photo page @ http://www.dorcutt.homepage.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 14, 2000 Report Share Posted October 14, 2000 whimsy2@... wrote: > > In a message dated 00-10-14 20:49:10 EDT, you write: > > << > She's 21, around 122lbs, and 5'7 " . > >> > > Well, Dave, she's sure not overweight. On the other hand, one doesn't have > to be overweight to have diabetes (I'm sure not!) I think it's a good idea > to have her checked...let us know how it comes out. Vicki Yep, will do. I'm planning on monitoring this college lass to make sure she gets it done! -- Dave -- Saturday, October 14, 2000 t2 8/98 Glucophage ICQ 10312009 «» DavOr's daily aphorism: All things are green unless they are not. -- Visit my photo page @ http://www.dorcutt.homepage.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 14, 2000 Report Share Posted October 14, 2000 Susie wrote: > > Dear Dave, > > I just read your letter to Rob. We both feel really bad about the news. the > fortunate news is you're in an excellent position to help her. We have to > call it diabetes at this point, Dave. That's the definition of it ... > elevated glucose readings after eating carbohydrates. > > Susie ( > > Dave wrote: > > << Everyone is asking me, well what else could she have but diabetes? >> I would have never thought of her having it.. she's so .... trim ... She has also had major trauma in the past 5 years--had her entire back fused and pinned due to severe scoliosis. She gained 2 1/2 " in one day! I wonder if the medications she was on had anything to do with it.. Dunno,but I'll be watching for sure. -- Dave -- Saturday, October 14, 2000 t2 8/98 Glucophage ICQ 10312009 «» DavOr's daily aphorism: All things are green unless they are not. -- Visit my photo page @ http://www.dorcutt.homepage.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 14, 2000 Report Share Posted October 14, 2000 Dear Dave, I just read your letter to Rob. We both feel really bad about the news. the fortunate news is you're in an excellent position to help her. We have to call it diabetes at this point, Dave. That's the definition of it ... elevated glucose readings after eating carbohydrates. Susie ( Dave wrote: << Everyone is asking me, well what else could she have but diabetes? >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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