Re: What is the 'PC way to refer to those on the spectrum?

[Guest guest]

> No, there is a difference between aspergers and autism. You just

> don't want to see it. If there wasn't any difference, why would they

> both have seperate definitions? Why does the last thing in the DSM-IV

> for Aspergers clearly state that if you have aspergers, you don't

> meet criteria for autism? Explain that

Easy to explain. The DSM is wrong.

In fact, I suspect there are two people on earth total that could

meet a completely accurate DSM Asperger's diagnosis (because of the

requirement to NOT meet the Autism diagnosis) if the autism diagnosis

criteria were read literally.

[Guest guest]

Attwood says its on the spectrum....

http://www.tonyattwood.com.au/

" Dr Hans Asperger, an Austrian paediatrician, originally described

Asperger’s Syndrome in 1944. The syndrome has more recently been classified

as an autistic spectrum disorder. "

....but apparently there is a new therory that says AS is " only " a PDD....

and that argument was what the school district tried to use to deny Aric the

use of his service dog in school (among other arguments). Just today, the

kids and I were watching old vid tape of them all,and I was shocked (though

I shouldn't have been) to see how many strong indications Aric had from the

beginning of AS,and once again furious at the stupid doctors who just kept

telling us he was " slow " . He was a classic,textbook case from the get

go-either the doctors here are dumber than dirt or they didn't want to tell

us the truth....likely both.

Gail, Anja & Mullen,

my German Shepherd & Greyhound

Service Dogs

& Flicka the MinPin EmoSD.

DePorres Service Dog Trainers Guild

»§«.,¸¸,.·´¯`·.,¸¸,.»§«

Live simply. Love generously.

Care deeply. Speak kindly.

Leave the rest to God.

-- Re: What is the 'PC " way to refer to those on

the spectrum?

>

> > , I was only talking about myself and I am not one of

those

> > in the broad, grey area between autism and aspergers. There is no

way

> > you can put me in the same boat with other extremes of the

spectrum

> > who are obviously autistic and just as obviously not aspergers,

such

> > as Sue Rubin for example. It is not a question of " better " , just

> > different.

>

> I disagree. That's like saying someone only has the flu if they

> don't die from it, as if someone dies from it they " clearly " have

> something else.

No, there is a difference between aspergers and autism. You just

don't want to see it. If there wasn't any difference, why would they

both have seperate definitions? Why does the last thing in the DSM-IV

for Aspergers clearly state that if you have aspergers, you don't

meet criteria for autism? Explain that

>

> It's very possible to manifest autism differently.

Where have I said it isn't possible? Of course it is. That

is true for aspergers too.

I wouldn't

> gaurantee every shrink would label you as Asperger's instead of

> autism either - it very much depends on their personal diagnostic

> criteria.

>

Probably best to agree to disagree on this one. I can gaurantee

that given the choice of aspergers or autism, NO professional would

put me in the autism category.

Jerry

[Guest guest]

alfamanda wrote:

> What if we had, say, sen's Syndrome?

<snip>

> On some other line. And I do not think that just because

> Asperger and Lorna Wing both happened at one point to find

> a particular pattern interesting, that this means that this

> pattern is set apart from other autistics in reality.

Let's all be glad that they didn't rename Asperger's after Lorna

Wing - then Aspies would be Wingers. (In England, the word is about

the same as " whiners " . ;-)

Clay

[Guest guest]

>

> > What if we had, say, sen's Syndrome?

> <snip>

> > On some other line. And I do not think that just because

> > Asperger and Lorna Wing both happened at one point to find

> > a particular pattern interesting, that this means that this

> > pattern is set apart from other autistics in reality.

>

> Let's all be glad that they didn't rename Asperger's after Lorna

> Wing - then Aspies would be Wingers. (In England, the word is about

> the same as " whiners " . ;-)

>

> Clay

>

Clay, that would suit most of my household fine I just don't

get the apparent " controversy. " If most of you don't see a difference

between AS and autism, why worry about what some professional calls

you? It doesn't change who you are at all, whether you are autistic,

aspergers, peterson or whatever. You are you.

As my first book says, " Your life is not a label " And that

was not an ad.

Jerry

[Guest guest]

>

> > , I was only talking about myself and I am not one of those

> > in the broad, grey area between autism and aspergers. There is no

way

> > you can put me in the same boat with other extremes of the

spectrum

> > who are obviously autistic and just as obviously not aspergers,

such

> > as Sue Rubin for example. It is not a question of " better " , just

> > different.

>

> Believe it or not, I've actually seen people try to define Sue away

as

> " Asperger's " online in the past. Not joking. In an attempt to

> discredit her of course, since " Asperger's " for some reason is used

to

> do that a lot. (I guess " Asperger's " isn't autistic enough for some

> people. But she doesn't fit the definition for it at all regardless

> of stereotypes or whatever.)

>

>

>

, not all of those people were trying to discredit sue

Rita Rubin herself tried to insinuate into an asperger's

category. Why? Beats me. Sue has other issues besides autism but

between her communication issues and her almost total lack of age-

appropriate self-help skills, no way is she aspergers. It is amazing

what lengths some people will go to try to discredit advocates in our

community.

Jerry Newport

[Guest guest]

> , not all of those people were trying to discredit sue

The ones I saw were. I had no idea her mother was trying to do that.

This was in an argument over whether autistic people could use

complex language, and someone pulled out Sue Rubin as an example of

someone who was definitely autistic-diagnosable not

Asperger's-diagnosable who could use complex language. The next

person said that Sue Rubin always struck him as " more Asperger's than

autistic " anyway. Or something like that.

> Rita Rubin herself tried to insinuate into an asperger's

> category. Why? Beats me. Sue has other issues besides autism but

> between her communication issues and her almost total lack of age-

> appropriate self-help skills, no way is she aspergers. It is

> amazing what lengths some people will go to try to discredit

> advocates in our community.

That's surprising (or maybe not), given that Sue herself has been

adamant about separating herself off categorically not only from

people diagnosed with Asperger's but anyone who can speak.

[Guest guest]

> I just don't

> get the apparent " controversy. " If most of you don't see a difference

> between AS and autism, why worry about what some professional calls

> you? It doesn't change who you are at all, whether you are

> autistic, aspergers, peterson or whatever. You are you.

I don't think anyone was arguing that it changed who we were, or that

it made our life into a label, or anything like that.

You entered this discussion as if it was a distinction you cared

about. Other people responded with disagreement with the particular

distinction you made, and our reasons for disagreement (none of which

were " it changes who we are " or " our lives are labels! whee! " ). Why

our sides of things would be any more likely to think that what

professionals call us determines a whole lot about who we are, than

your side, makes absolutely no sense.

[Guest guest]

> Rita Rubin herself tried to insinuate into an asperger's

> category. Why? Beats me. Sue has other issues besides autism but

> between her communication issues and her almost total lack of age-

> appropriate self-help skills, no way is she aspergers. It is amazing

> what lengths some people will go to try to discredit advocates in our

> community.

Can you supply your diagnostic criteria for Autism and Asperger's?

Presence of " age-appropriate " self-help skills are not in any

criteria of Asperger's I've ever read.

Are you saying you can't be Asperger's if you need, let's say, a live

in aide?

[Guest guest]

> Why

> our sides of things would be any more likely to think that what

> professionals call us determines a whole lot about who we are, than

> your side, makes absolutely no sense.

In fact, I suspect saying the distinction is meaningless *is* part of

the act of defining who we are, independent of professionals. Rather

then relying on an external factor to differentiate, many people had

said, " Wait, why separate us this way? That's doesn't make sense. "

Doesn't sound like being confined to a label to me. It's not like

I'm telling people diagnosed with AS to start flapping or stop

talking or some such!

[Guest guest]

> It's not like

> I'm telling people diagnosed with AS to start flapping or stop

> talking or some such!

That's okay, you don't exactly flap anyway. ;-)

(For those who have not met : Instead of flapping, he rotates his

wrists so rapidly back and forth -- with his hands straight, not

floppy -- that it looks like his hands are shaking.)

[Guest guest]

> Can you supply your diagnostic criteria for Autism and Asperger's?

> Presence of " age-appropriate " self-help skills are not in any

> criteria of Asperger's I've ever read.

They're in the DSM criteria. Look at Criterion E: There is no

clinically significant delay in cognitive development or in the

development of age-appropriate self-help skills, adaptive behavior

(other than social interaction), and curiosity about the environment

in childhood.

[Guest guest]

alfamanda wrote:

>

>

>>Person-first language chaps my ass.

>

>

> Can I use that in a random .sigfile?

>

>

Sure! In fact I think I'll add it to mine as well.

Griff

--

.... Person-first language chaps my ass.

[Guest guest]

>

> > Rita Rubin herself tried to insinuate into an

asperger's

> > category. Why? Beats me. Sue has other issues besides autism but

> > between her communication issues and her almost total lack of age-

> > appropriate self-help skills, no way is she aspergers. It is

amazing

> > what lengths some people will go to try to discredit advocates in

our

> > community.

>

> Can you supply your diagnostic criteria for Autism and

Asperger's?

> Presence of " age-appropriate " self-help skills are not in any

> criteria of Asperger's I've ever read.

They are in what I have read.

>

> Are you saying you can't be Asperger's if you need, let's say, a

live

> in aide?

>

Yes, I am. You also can't be aspergers if you use a

communication device either.

Jerry

[Guest guest]

>

>

>> Can you supply your diagnostic criteria for Autism and Asperger's?

>> Presence of " age-appropriate " self-help skills are not in any

>> criteria of Asperger's I've ever read.

>

> They're in the DSM criteria. Look at Criterion E: There is no

> clinically significant delay in cognitive development or in the

> development of age-appropriate self-help skills, adaptive behavior

> (other than social interaction), and curiosity about the environment

> in childhood.

Okay, I stand corrected. Sorry Jerry.

This would seem to remove EF problems from Asperger's. Am I reading

that right?

[Guest guest]

> Yes, I am. You also can't be aspergers if you use a

> communication device either.

Tell that to some of the parents who have dismissed what I've said

about autism because I'm really " Asperger's " .

After all, I work and live alone without non-typical assistance.

At which point they might draw a 3rd category of autistic, " HFA "

which consists of those people no one would ever consider doing

anything bad to because they are very different from the LFAs they

are doing horrible things to...

[Guest guest]

> Okay, I stand corrected. Sorry Jerry.

> This would seem to remove EF problems from Asperger's. Am I

> reading that right?

I don't know. Mainly because the DSM criteria are set up in a way

that doesn't make a lot of sense.

I think that if you applied the strict DSM criteria of Asperger's,

then a *lot* of people who are currently diagnosed Asperger's would

have to be diagnosed autistic or PDD-NOS because there just aren't

that many people who can meet the Asperger's criteria. (Which is why

some doctors ignore some of the criteria, I think -- someone could

meet all the other criteria but have EF problems and suddenly be

PDD-NOS instead of Asperger's.)

I do definitely know people who would have been diagnosed Asperger's,

but then weren't allowed to be because they didn't have

" age-appropriate self-help skills " .

[Guest guest]

> >

> >> Can you supply your diagnostic criteria for Autism and

Asperger's?

> >> Presence of " age-appropriate " self-help skills are not in any

> >> criteria of Asperger's I've ever read.

> >

> > They're in the DSM criteria. Look at Criterion E: There is no

> > clinically significant delay in cognitive development or in the

> > development of age-appropriate self-help skills, adaptive behavior

> > (other than social interaction), and curiosity about the

environment

> > in childhood.

>

> Okay, I stand corrected. Sorry Jerry.

>

> This would seem to remove EF problems from Asperger's. Am I

reading

> that right?

>

Apology accepted,.

To 's post, may I add:

D. There is no clinically significant general delay in language

(e.g., single words used by age 2 years, communicative phrases used

by age 3 years)

As for your " EF " , I don't know what you mean by that.

BTW, Happy Thanksgiving to you and the rest, especially and

Parrish for putting up with us

Jerry

PS: I hope nobody thinks I don't have problems with the DSM-IV

as it is. I do.

[Guest guest]

posted:

> > They're in the DSM criteria. Look at Criterion E: There is no

> > clinically significant delay in cognitive development or in the

> > development of age-appropriate self-help skills, adaptive behavior

> > (other than social interaction), and curiosity about the environment

> > in childhood.

What is included in " self-help skills " and " adaptive behavior " ?

Jane

[Guest guest]

>

> posted:

> > > They're in the DSM criteria. Look at Criterion E: There is no

> > > clinically significant delay in cognitive development or in the

> > > development of age-appropriate self-help skills, adaptive

behavior

> > > (other than social interaction), and curiosity about the

environment

> > > in childhood.

>

> What is included in " self-help skills " and " adaptive behavior " ?

>

> Jane

>

That's a good question. I would guess stuff like dressing, eating

and grooming. Later on, stuff like driving a car? Of course, all of

this could be done haphazardly. Especially driving And we are

hardly known as clotheshorses either.

It should be defined better.

The reason I don't use " autistic " to describe me is because

whenever I did that in front of an audience, it gave people the wrong

impression, like I was just like their kid. I wasn't enough to say

that. It isn't fair to mislead people like that. I know some other

aspies who could do that more comfortably but I can only speak for

myself.

I like being part of the autism community but I don't want to

use any of the words to take credit for barriers I didn't overcome or

get services I don't really need.

Jerry

[Guest guest]

> The reason I don't use " autistic " to describe me is because

> whenever I did that in front of an audience, it gave people the wrong

> impression, like I was just like their kid. I wasn't enough to say

> that. It isn't fair to mislead people like that. I know some other

> aspies who could do that more comfortably but I can only speak for

> myself.

How are you different from their kid, yet I am closer to their kid

(my diagnosis is Childhood Autism - older DSM)?

I'm not like their kid either. I'm a 28 year old man, with specific

interests, personality traits, and other things that make me very

different. Also my expression of autism is probably different than

most people's (including yours, 's, Sue's, and whoever else's).

[Guest guest]

> (For those who have not met : Instead of flapping, he rotates his

> wrists so rapidly back and forth -- with his hands straight, not

> floppy -- that it looks like his hands are shaking.)

Yes, I fail the flapping criteria. It hurts my wrists to flap. :/

I've always felt I was missing something <grin>

[Guest guest]

>

> > Yes, I am. You also can't be aspergers if you use a

> > communication device either.

>

> Tell that to some of the parents who have dismissed what I've said

> about autism because I'm really " Asperger's " .

I guess I should tell that to Lenny, too

>

> After all, I work and live alone without non-typical assistance.

>

> At which point they might draw a 3rd category of autistic, " HFA "

> which consists of those people no one would ever consider doing

> anything bad to because they are very different from the LFAs they

> are doing horrible things to...

Well, there is no limit to how far people will go to discredit

us when they don't agree with us.

The different descriptors, I can live with. But the real reason

they exist is money. Lots of places use these words to decide who

gets help and who doesn't which isn't fair.

Jerry

>

[Guest guest]

>

> > The reason I don't use " autistic " to describe me is because

> > whenever I did that in front of an audience, it gave people the

wrong

> > impression, like I was just like their kid. I wasn't enough to say

> > that. It isn't fair to mislead people like that. I know some

other

> > aspies who could do that more comfortably but I can only speak for

> > myself.

>

> How are you different from their kid, yet I am closer to their kid

> (my diagnosis is Childhood Autism - older DSM)?

" Are " is not the issue. I can only tell you what I was like

as a youth and not knowing that part of history, that is the best I

can do.

I was talking about how I was at the age of the kids of typical

audience members, say three to ten. I was verbal at one, reading at

two, displaying savant skills in math and music, in a mainstream

class with an IQ of 126 to 171, depending on the test. They don't DX

kids for that stuff.

My spectrum problems were almost entirely social but nowhere near

as severe as what typical autistic kids have at that age.

The grossest stuff I was known for was pica (nosepicking and

scab-eating), poor grooming, horrible teeth and being a playground

nerd. But this was in 1955. My parents were teachers in the district.

My older brothers were doing fine. I got the benefit of every doubt

and " Asperger " sounded like something in the cafeteria.

>

> I'm not like their kid either.

Please go back and re-read what I typed

I'm a 28 year old man,

In that case, send me an address and I will send you a birthday

cube. It has on opposite sides: 1 and 28, four and seven, two and

fourteen, so the product of any two opposing sides is equal to 28.

No other number will work like that with a cube.

with specific

> interests, personality traits, and other things that make me very

> different. Also my expression of autism is probably different

than

> most people's (including yours, 's, Sue's, and whoever

else's).

That is now. I was talking about my youth. What were you like

as a seven year old?

Jerry

>

[Guest guest]

Gail & her Service Dogs wrote:

> ...is that the word I often see, that is usually spelled

> 'whinging " ? I've always wondered what that meant!

I think you're right, Gail, it IS " whinging " or " whinger " ,

and it does mean " to whine " . Not sure if they say it with

a hard or soft 'g'.

Clay

[Guest guest]

Thanks! I'm a bit of a word freak at times,and a word or a line gets stuck

in my head,and I simply can't seem to evict it.....it can get stuck in there

and keep me awake at night even. I find myself handling the word,feeling and

tasting it,as if it were an object...weird,I know! There was one time when I

went in to have a C-section,for when our daughter was born,and our other two

kids had just gotten the " charlotte's web " movie the week before,and I just

could NOT get that damn rat's song about going to the fair out of my head,no

matter what I did!! I was frantic,when it came time for them to knock me out

for the operation,and that idiot thing was STILL running through my mind-I

don't react well or consistently to meds,and there is always the chance that

a general can kill you anyway,so I always go under saying a Hail or Act

of Contrition. But this time,it was utterly insane: " Hail ,full of grace

...the Fair is a veritable smorgasbord-orgesboard...the Lord is with thee..

after the lights are down.... " I just couldn't help wondering what kind of

laugh God was getting from that,and what it would be like to face Him with

those my last consious thoughts! <VBG!>

Gail, Anja & Mullen,

my German Shepherd & Greyhound

Service Dogs

& Flicka the MinPin EmoSD.

DePorres Service Dog Trainers Guild

»§«.,¸¸,.·´¯`·.,¸¸,.»§«

Live simply. Love generously.

Care deeply. Speak kindly.

Leave the rest to God.

-- Re: What is the 'PC " way to refer to those on

the spectrum?

Gail & her Service Dogs wrote:

> ...is that the word I often see, that is usually spelled

> 'whinging " ? I've always wondered what that meant!

I think you're right, Gail, it IS " whinging " or " whinger " ,

and it does mean " to whine " . Not sure if they say it with

a hard or soft 'g'.

Clay