Re: How to ask for what you want in a relationship...its hard

October 15, 2006

e,

I think we teach people how to treat us. I don't believe in asking

people. In fact I think the people that I have to ask too often to

meet my needs aren't really in my life very long- nada included.

I think if people put up w/enough, even good people will slip and

take them for granted and not know why, but deep down loose respect.

From the sounds of your letter, you have more than put up w/being

taken for granted and now you're asking for your needs to be met

rather than teaching him in action how to meet those needs.

People are self-interested. Why is it in your partner's self-

interest to meet your needs? I have a hard time getting from your

letter why he should change. I mean on the surface, yes, he should

change, but maybe you should too, ya know? If you've told him enough

times how you feel, then maybe he thinks you are one to just keep on

taking and taking whatever scraps he gives and you'll be fine- low

maintance I suppose. I'm not low maintance- well maybe I am now days

after being married for 6 years but I honestly can not relate when I

hear people say their spouse forgot their b-day or anniversary. I

just never trained dh to be that way with me and believe me, I TOO AM

TRAINED. I don't nag for one. I use to, but it doesn't work and he

hates it. And he's not near as much of a slob as he use to be though

he still battles sloth (much like I battle nagging and being too

critical). Why would we change? I suppose it is rather altruistic to

say 'for each other' but that would be only partially true. I don't

buy that. I think I changed b/c I valued him and he made me

uncomfortable in areas I use to be comfortable in but probably

shoudn't have been- the drama and anger issues from nada. I'm glad he

made me uncomfortable. I'm glad he stood up to me and didn't take my

crap. I'm glad that even though I was a biotch, he was able to

forgive me and work with me and have faith in me. And he's got issues

too. I mean that boy was an insane slob for the first few years and

I'd go constantly around picking up his crap he'd leave everywhere

and acting like his freaking mommy and it use to piss me off and I'd

nag the crap out of him which he absolutely deplores and it was just

a nasty cycle. He didn't take me seriously b/c I whined sooo much

about it, but never really did communicate on his level. Then one day

the thought occurred to me that his lack of tidiness was a form of

disrespect. Sure, it was a little song and dance we'd gotten use to

where I was like his mom or something and he was like the kid and I'd

whine and get mad, but I never did much to change the situation. And

then I remembered how much pride he has and how he hates being talked

down to or disrespected and so I called him one day in the middle of

the day while he was at work and I was starting to seeth from seeing

all the crap laying around the house again and a little lightbulb

went off in my head. It said, communicate to him the way that he

communicates and on a level he can understand. My way hadn't worked

and so I tried a new approach. I said 'Hi honey. Gotta minute?' He

said yes and so I said 'now sweetheart, can you recall the last time

I visited your office?'- uh-hu. 'And do you remember that big stack

of papers you've got in your inbox, that you've always got in your

inbox b/c you're so busy all the time?' 'yes, why?'- he's totally

baffled by my subterfuge at this point. 'Let me ask you while we're

talking about your work and all, how would you feel if next time I

visited your office I just picked up a big ol pile of those papers

and strowed them everywhere and said have fun and just walked out?'

He started laughing at the visual image I was painting and said 'well

I'd think you're nuts and I'd be pissed at you.' and I

said 'EXACTLY!' He was totally utterly confused at this point so I

said again " exactly. I think you're absolutely nuts for coming home

every day and night and making big piles of messes everywhere and

interfering in MY JOB as a stay at home mom and thinking that our

relationship is gonna work out while you're so disrespectful of my

job.' He said 'oh, I see. I don't think I've looked at it from that

angle and when you put it in terms of your job and my job and respect

for a person's job, well that makes sense.' And he's honestly been

really good about working to make sure he's the adult around here

instead of the child w/various messes. He's actually pretty awesome,

but I had to find HIS currency first- what it was he valued and what

he'd find absurd and add a little humor in too b/c he's very funny.

I think your letter is written and communicating your style and your

needs. If you want real connection, you have to meet in the middle so

that you understand his currency and learn to communicate on a level

he can understand.

A really good book I liked that our therapist recommended was

called 'Fighting For Your Marriage'. While it doesn't sound like you

are married, it still has awesome tools in the book to use to help

out your relationship.

Best wishes. Good relationships don't just happen. Of that I am most

certain. But they are worth fighting for in the good ways- meaning

mainly the fight w/self.

Kerrie

>

> I don't know if its okay to post something not directly related to

> BPD person but more of a flea or aftermath I've got because of

> growing up with BPD mother. If this isn't appropriate, then I trust

> the mods will remove it and let me know

> Of course its long, because I just haven't learned how to be brief

in

> writing yet!

> Here's my challenge: In a relationship its hard to ask for what I

> want. I'm learning, and its been step by step a good choice. BUT I

> still get the jitters when things happen that lead to me feeling

like

> I have lately. I'm going to speak up, again, and I guess I'm

doubting

> if I even know how to do it right. I've put all my thoughts in a

> letter and am doing it face to face, but my big question is: How do

> you know if what you want is reasonable or if you're being too

> demanding because you were stepped on so much by others that were

> mentally ill? This boundary stuff is hard, and i guess its like

> sticking up for myself and saying what I want.

> If anyone here who's got successful marriage experience can help me

> with some words of experience, guidance and/or reality, I sure

could

> use them. I'm questioning if this is all about me being childishly

> demanding or if its how healthy people do this in a healthy

> relationship. I want healthy, but I'm still learning. So is he by

> the way, so that helps...but then I guess we're all learning huh?

> Some with unique challenges others don't have :/

>

> Here's most of what I've written and am taking a deep breath to

talk

> to him about. I'd ask a girlfriend, but she doesn't get the whole

> boundary thing from BPD fallout...

>

> Dear sweetie,

> We're talking about a future together and one thing I'm concerned

> about is the old adage: the best predictor of future behavior is

past

> behavior. I want to know what I can expect from you in the future,

> but I realize that we're both growing as individuals and as a

> couple. I love you very much, and I don't want either of us to be

> hurt. The thing I worry about in the future is about expectations

> and meeting each others' needs. I'm putting this in writing so I

can

> really think about it and clearly say what I'm feeling, and so I

can

> give this as much thought as something this important deserves.

> I've reached a point where I don't know any other ways to ask

> you for what I want in areas of our relationship. I've tried the

> approaches you've told me will work with you, but they don't seem

to

> be working: 1. I've been direct and told you what I want; 2. I've

> been understanding of other demands in your life; and 3. I've

waited

> as patiently as I'm able.

> I've done what you asked in trying to get what I want, but it seems

> like it's just not important enough to motivate you. I don't see,

> based on your words vs. your actions, that meeting my expressed

needs

> is a priority for you. It feels like you are more intent on

meeting

> your own needs and keeping me around to make you happy, while

things

> you could do to make me happy just don't matter that much.

> I don't know if this is selfishness, or that you're not able

> or ready to give me what I want. Maybe its something else I don't

> see, but I don't want to make the wrong conclusion. I want to know

> what the truth is. You said last month that you had no excuse for

> not doing things that I have asked for and am entitled to get from

> you. It hurts me to realize you are fully aware of my desires, but

> you choose to ignore them. It feels like there's no point in me

> taking the risk to ask for what I want when you won't choose to

give

> it to me. I want to be happy with what you're able and willing to

> give me in a relationship where we're both happy and getting what

we

> want and need.

> I don't want to become exhausted from giving and feel gypped

because

> I'm not getting what I want. I can't make you do it, I can only

> ask. I have asked. If you can't do it, then you need to tell me.

> If you're still trying and growing in that area, then I'd like to

> know that from you. I don't want to expect or ask for things you

> can't do. I'm not willing to stop making requests, but I'm

becoming

> disheartened and discouraged from making them. Please tell me

> honestly where you're at, if you can handle a relationship where my

> needs are as important as yours. Tell me if my needs are more than

> you can handle right now, so I won't keep asking you to give if you

> don't want to.

> I hope we can resolve this, and I've thought of some reasons

> it may be happening:

> In our relationship we've found we can risk asking for what we

> want and find needs met that our exes didn't meet. This is such a

> good thing for both of us, but it creates something for each of us

to

> deal with when our expressed needs aren't met. This is where I'm

> struggling to be flexible.

> Together we're free to be ourselves and be accepted for who we

are

> by someone that loves us. I'm finding that with this, I'm able to

> ask for my needs to be met and its okay to be needy and ask. I'm

> also finding that being with you has taught me what its like to

love

> someone enough to find the ability to put my needs behind yours

> sometimes. This is a good thing and I'm willing to do it until it

> becomes impossible for me. It becomes impossible when you reject

my

> requests.

> Being divorced we have a freedom to find what we want in our own

> lives. Sometimes that freedom conflicts with how much we can give

> each other, and we both have heavy duties on us we've never had to

> bear alone that conflict with our ability to give.

> You're stronger willed than I am and I let you lead, which leads

> to me needing to speak up at times like this. Speaking up is good

> and healthy, and I like that you listen to me when I do.

>

> It would probably help if I give you examples of what I'm talking

> about:

> Then I put in some examples...here's one of them...

>

> The whole romancing me as a woman issue that I brought up

> before pains me to bring up again, but I will because it's

important

> and I just can't understand why after we talked it hasn't changed.

> This is the biggest reason I wonder about past behavior predicting

> future behavior. You told me then that it's okay for me to want

> notes, cards, flowers, etc. You told me that you know to do these

> things, have no excuse for not doing them, but yet you continue to

> not do them. I continue to reach out and give you these sorts of

> things, but you aren't reciprocating. I don't understand. Its

> taking away my heartfelt desire to please you with notes and little

> tokens of love when you won't give them to me. I want to do these

> things in a relationship, and I want them back. But it's become

> something that hurts to keep giving because I can't expect them

from

> you. Nobody wants to nag someone to give them tokens of love, so I

> hate to even have to say it again.

>

> After reading all of this, I hope you hear what I'm saying,

> that I'm not seeing this in a selfish way, and that we can talk

about

> it. I need to know if you hear what I ask for, if it matters to

you,

> and if you are willing and able to make some of my needs a priority

> in your life so we can both have the happy relationship we both

want

> and deserve in life.

> e

>

October 15, 2006

Phoenix,

It sounds to me like the problem is not that you don't know how to ask

for what you want, or that you haven't communicated it.

The problem sounds like, you've expressed what you want (like the

romance-type stuff, for instance)--probably more than once--and yet...

you're not getting it.

The question then becomes, how can you make someone change and start

to give you something you've already asked for? And the answer is:

generally you can't. People generally don't change.

Based on my experiences and the experiences of my friends...if the

person doesn't give you what you want when you ask (the first time,

the second time, etc), he/she is probably not going to give it to you

the tenth time. This person is probably never going to undergo a

turnaround, and start giving you notes and flowers.

Then the question becomes, do you still want this person? There's no

right or wrong answer. Everyone has qualities we like, and qualities

we wish were different. You might still want the relationship, and you

might not.

I hope this is not too direct or discouraging-sounding. I write it

with a spirit of caring. I know how painful and frustrating it can be

not to get what you want.

Janie

October 16, 2006

Kerrie,

I was just reading your reply to e, and I was thinking...she

might get the impression from your post that somehow it's her fault

that she isn't getting notes and flowers. And I don't think that's the

impression you meant to give?

I understand your point about " training " someone, or teaching them how

you like to be treated. And I agree with you. Like if your husband

grew up in a family where birthdays are no big deal, but your b-day

**is** a big deal to you, your responsibility is to tell him that--to

teach him how you would like your birthday to be--and hopefully he

will respond the way you like.

But IMO, that's where the responsibility ends. You communicate what

you want. And then it's up to him to give it or not. Sometimes, for

some things, he will--sometimes, for some things, he won't.

I mean, that's true in any relationship, right? The only human

relationship where a person is expected to get all his/her needs met

pretty consistently is that between an infant and mother (and we on

this list, didn't even get that one!).

But with other relationships, it's more of a juggling act. Hopefully

in your most significant relationships, you can get many of your needs

met, much of the time. Hopefully if you choose a significant other,

it's someone who will consistently meet the needs that are most

important to you. (That's why we date people...to find that out.)

So on the one hand, we are never going to find that " perfect " person

who meets every need. On the other hand, if we are in a relationship

with someone who fails to meet important needs, time and again, we

have no way to " make " that person do what we want.

I think we KOs tend to think we bear responsibility for things that

aren't our fault, and tend to want to control things that we can't

control. It's the whole parentified-child thing.

Once e has told him what she wants, I think she's " done her

part. " If he is not giving her, say the notes and the flowers, he

probably isn't going to.

Does that make him a bad person? No. Does that make the relationship

not worth keeping? It depends totally on how important these things

are, that she's not getting.

But I would feel sad to think that she would get the mistaken idea

that she isn't getting what she wants from this guy, because she

failed somehow to train him. And I don't think you meant that?

Although I don't want to presume to speak for you.

Blessings,

Janie

October 16, 2006

Kerrie and Janie, I appreciate your input, words and personal

experience in the relationship building steps. It helps

Janie you're right in that I've asked for what I want and he hasn't

responded, and also in the reality that if someone doesn't respond to

an expressed need after giving them the chance to do it, then no

time, manipulation, begging or pleading will make them do it. I don't

think I'd even want it if it was only brought about by those forceful

techniques. Someone giving me what I want that's inspired by the love

they say they have for me is what I'm hoping for and seeking.

We did talk tonight, about a lot of realities. Kerrie you're right in

that we teach someone how to love us uniquely based on who we are. I

guess the love has to be there in order to motivate someone else to

love us in the unique way each of us feels loved...that's what we

talked about tonight. He says the love is there, but he has some of

his own fears. We've both got a lot to think about for ourselves. I

can't know what the future holds because there are some decisions he

needs to make. I've made sure to communicate what I need, and that I

do appreciate what he does (and I do, a lot) and now the ball's in

his court. That's okay too, because honestly I don't want to be with

someone that isn't absolutely sure that I'm the one he wants. The way

that I love someone is to know what pleases the person and to make

that a priority, instead of loving the way that I want to be loved, I

want to know how THEY feel loved. I think that's the way love is

supposed to go, in an ideal relationship

Its funny how there are things we grow to know but still question

ourselves, like me tonight. I had to know it was okay to speak up for

what I want. I had to know its okay to have personal wants and needs.

Now I have to know its okay to examine which he's able and willing to

give and if what he has to offer is what I want...only some time and

communication will answer those questions I figure.

Thank you ladies, you've given me some wisdom from your experiences

that I couldn't have known. I do appreciate you for sharing your

thoughts and feelings with me

e

>

> Phoenix,

> It sounds to me like the problem is not that you don't know how to

ask

> for what you want, or that you haven't communicated it.

>

> The problem sounds like, you've expressed what you want (like the

> romance-type stuff, for instance)--probably more than once--and

yet...

> you're not getting it.

>

> The question then becomes, how can you make someone change and start

> to give you something you've already asked for? And the answer is:

> generally you can't. People generally don't change.

>

> Based on my experiences and the experiences of my friends...if the

> person doesn't give you what you want when you ask (the first time,

> the second time, etc), he/she is probably not going to give it to

you

> the tenth time. This person is probably never going to undergo a

> turnaround, and start giving you notes and flowers.

>

> Then the question becomes, do you still want this person? There's no

> right or wrong answer. Everyone has qualities we like, and qualities

> we wish were different. You might still want the relationship, and

you

> might not.

>

> I hope this is not too direct or discouraging-sounding. I write it

> with a spirit of caring. I know how painful and frustrating it can

be

> not to get what you want.

>

> Janie

>

October 16, 2006

A key question I'm trying to resolve in my own mind was in my original

big post and I'd sure like to have some clue on this:

How do you know if what you want is reasonable or if you're being too

demanding because you were stepped on so much by others that were

mentally ill and didn't get a lot of basic human needs met?

Its not just about cards and flowers

e

October 16, 2006

e,

I know. It's tough to answer that one in any sort of clear way, so...I

kinda avoided it haha. My gut reaction, based on your letter, is no,

you aren't being unreasonable. But your question is, how would you

know whether you are reasonable or not. So I'll give it a try.

First off, what you want is what you want. Period. I'll use an example

of one of my close friends and her husband. She likes for her husband

to call her several times a day, even when he's at work. (That would

drive me crazy, but she likes it.)

Second, whether or not it's " reasonable " depends partly on the two

people in the relationship--do they think it's reasonable? My friend's

husband actually enjoys calling her several times a day, so it works

for them. Maybe if she were married to someone else, he would be a

fine person, but someone who doesn't want to (or can't) call her

several times a day. So that might not be reasonable for him. So...the

whole thing about " reasonable " is kind of a slippery notion. It's

partly based on the two people involved.

There are probably some extreme situations that most neutral observers

would say are unreasonable...like if my friend said she needed a call

every hour or she would drive off a cliff. Okay, unreasonable. But in

her case, she just likes a lot of calls, for whatever reason, and he

doesn't mind calling. It works for them.

Third, I think we can ***maybe*** get clues about whether what we want

is " reasonable " (if we define " reasonable " as being " reasonable to the

average person " ) by thinking about all our past relationships. If

everyone you ever dated has the same " complaint " it might provide a

clue. For instance, if my friend's old bf's unanimously said " She

wanted me to call too much, it drove me crazy " then my friend would

have a clue, maybe she either needs to think about her need for calls,

and whether it might be interfering with her relationships with

people, OR find a person (as she did) who actually likes to call a lot.

I think partly what you're getting at, when you're asking this Q, is

if we KOs can have nada-ish fleas, which make us " too needy " or make

us " want too much " , because our nadas were so infinitely needy and so

unreasonable?

I think, however, as a general rule, we KOs tend to have the opposite

problem. We are so afraid of being needy, or wanting too much, or

losing someone's love and regard by being human and needing something

out of a relationship, that we tend to do the opposite.

So as a result, in a situation like yours, when you are expressing

needs, and not getting them met, you second-guess yourself and ask, is

it me? Am I wrong to want x, y, z? And then perhaps we then tend to

" settle for less " . If someone doesn't give us what we want, we think

it's because what we wanted was somehow " wrong " ... So we don't make an

effort, perhaps, like my friend did, to find someone who would meet

her particular important needs.

I don't know if any of this makes sense. Just tryin' to take a stab at

a difficult Q.

Janie

October 16, 2006

Janie, I've been re-reading both replies from you and Kerrie.

Digesting them and really examining some of the very good things you

brought up. Thank you for taking the time, both of you to give

some insights I just didn't know. It helps.

e

>

> Kerrie,

> I was just reading your reply to e, and I was thinking...she

> might get the impression from your post that somehow it's her fault

> that she isn't getting notes and flowers. And I don't think that's

the

> impression you meant to give?

>

> I understand your point about " training " someone, or teaching them

how

> you like to be treated. And I agree with you. Like if your husband

> grew up in a family where birthdays are no big deal, but your b-day

> **is** a big deal to you, your responsibility is to tell him that--

to

> teach him how you would like your birthday to be--and hopefully he

> will respond the way you like.

>

> But IMO, that's where the responsibility ends. You communicate what

> you want. And then it's up to him to give it or not. Sometimes, for

> some things, he will--sometimes, for some things, he won't.

>

> I mean, that's true in any relationship, right? The only human

> relationship where a person is expected to get all his/her needs met

> pretty consistently is that between an infant and mother (and we on

> this list, didn't even get that one!).

>

> But with other relationships, it's more of a juggling act. Hopefully

> in your most significant relationships, you can get many of your

needs

> met, much of the time. Hopefully if you choose a significant other,

> it's someone who will consistently meet the needs that are most

> important to you. (That's why we date people...to find that out.)

>

> So on the one hand, we are never going to find that " perfect " person

> who meets every need. On the other hand, if we are in a relationship

> with someone who fails to meet important needs, time and again, we

> have no way to " make " that person do what we want.

>

> I think we KOs tend to think we bear responsibility for things that

> aren't our fault, and tend to want to control things that we can't

> control. It's the whole parentified-child thing.

>

> Once e has told him what she wants, I think she's " done her

> part. " If he is not giving her, say the notes and the flowers, he

> probably isn't going to.

>

> Does that make him a bad person? No. Does that make the relationship

> not worth keeping? It depends totally on how important these things

> are, that she's not getting.

>

> But I would feel sad to think that she would get the mistaken idea

> that she isn't getting what she wants from this guy, because she

> failed somehow to train him. And I don't think you meant that?

> Although I don't want to presume to speak for you.

>

> Blessings,

> Janie

>

October 16, 2006

e,

This is totally a KO issue. Most of us learned not to ask for what we wanted

or had some twisted notation on this issue of getting our needs met to the point

of finally not even know what our own needs are.

I read your letter and you certainly have put a lot of thought and good

feelings into it, but you left out the anger for not getting your needs met.

Another thing that concerns me is that the tone of the letter has you in a one

- to -two down position, which is another tactic we learned from growing up with

insane people. For example, by stating that you don't know if what you are

asking is even normal = appropriate, puts you at a HUGE disadvantage. If

you're not sure, they can either use it to their advantage, be confused b/c

maybe they don't know, etc. Let me give you an example: When Jim and I were

together adn I was a massage therapist, Jim would ask me to massage his neck and

shoulders sometimes when he got home. After massaging 6 people for an hour and

a half, this was the last thing I wanted to do. Instead, I wanted to snuggle on

the couch and just unwind. So we talked about it and I agreed to massage his

neck and shoulders 3 times a week. I asked him to remind me If I forgot. And

he was flexible, too. Sometimes, if my case load was really heavy (some

clients, i.e., muscle builders take up a huge

amount of energy and stress my joints) I would soak my hands in ice. This let

Jim know that it was a hard day and no massage. And I also asked that he

massage my neck and shoulders 3 times a week as well. At first he didn't like

that b/c he said he wouldn't be as good as me. I told him, I don't care, just

do the best you can. This worked out well.

The last thing I saw in your letter that is very insightful, yet, not good in

making requests is explaining potential why's. This is another KO thing.

Explain, Explain, Explain so that we have all our bases covered, so if they do

reject us, we weren't that vulnerable.

Making requests in a relationship is all about being vulnerable/taking the

risk that they will say no.

I'm not sure if this is in there, but my intuition keeps nagging me to write

this. Deal with one issue at a time. What I'm trying to say, e, is that

sometimes we don't know/aren't aware of all these issues until they reach a

certain anger level within us. Then the lightbulb goes on and we realize, " Hey,

this isn't fair! " And it isn't fair to come at them with a list of 6 things on

it. Jim and I dealt with this in marriage counseling. This is another KO issue

= (don't get angry!) (How dare you ask for that, you little..............) So

they pile up.

You are definitely on the right road and in the right direction. I find using

assertive " When you (do x), I feel (y). It is important to me, in our

relationship, to receive at least one of the three romantic gestures every

week. " And then listen to what they have to say.

Post some more if you want. You're on the right track.

Greg.

phoenixsilverfire wrote:

I don't know if its okay to post something not directly related to

BPD person but more of a flea or aftermath I've got because of

growing up with BPD mother. If this isn't appropriate, then I trust

the mods will remove it and let me know

Of course its long, because I just haven't learned how to be brief in

writing yet!

Here's my challenge: In a relationship its hard to ask for what I

want. I'm learning, and its been step by step a good choice. BUT I

still get the jitters when things happen that lead to me feeling like

I have lately. I'm going to speak up, again, and I guess I'm doubting

if I even know how to do it right. I've put all my thoughts in a

letter and am doing it face to face, but my big question is: How do

you know if what you want is reasonable or if you're being too

demanding because you were stepped on so much by others that were

mentally ill? This boundary stuff is hard, and i guess its like

sticking up for myself and saying what I want.

If anyone here who's got successful marriage experience can help me

with some words of experience, guidance and/or reality, I sure could

use them. I'm questioning if this is all about me being childishly

demanding or if its how healthy people do this in a healthy

relationship. I want healthy, but I'm still learning. So is he by

the way, so that helps...but then I guess we're all learning huh?

Some with unique challenges others don't have :/

Here's most of what I've written and am taking a deep breath to talk

to him about. I'd ask a girlfriend, but she doesn't get the whole

boundary thing from BPD fallout...

Dear sweetie,

We're talking about a future together and one thing I'm concerned

about is the old adage: the best predictor of future behavior is past

behavior. I want to know what I can expect from you in the future,

but I realize that we're both growing as individuals and as a

couple. I love you very much, and I don't want either of us to be

hurt. The thing I worry about in the future is about expectations

and meeting each others' needs. I'm putting this in writing so I can

really think about it and clearly say what I'm feeling, and so I can

give this as much thought as something this important deserves.

I've reached a point where I don't know any other ways to ask

you for what I want in areas of our relationship. I've tried the

approaches you've told me will work with you, but they don't seem to

be working: 1. I've been direct and told you what I want; 2. I've

been understanding of other demands in your life; and 3. I've waited

as patiently as I'm able.

I've done what you asked in trying to get what I want, but it seems

like it's just not important enough to motivate you. I don't see,

based on your words vs. your actions, that meeting my expressed needs

is a priority for you. It feels like you are more intent on meeting

your own needs and keeping me around to make you happy, while things

you could do to make me happy just don't matter that much.

I don't know if this is selfishness, or that you're not able

or ready to give me what I want. Maybe its something else I don't

see, but I don't want to make the wrong conclusion. I want to know

what the truth is. You said last month that you had no excuse for

not doing things that I have asked for and am entitled to get from

you. It hurts me to realize you are fully aware of my desires, but

you choose to ignore them. It feels like there's no point in me

taking the risk to ask for what I want when you won't choose to give

it to me. I want to be happy with what you're able and willing to

give me in a relationship where we're both happy and getting what we

want and need.

I don't want to become exhausted from giving and feel gypped because

I'm not getting what I want. I can't make you do it, I can only

ask. I have asked. If you can't do it, then you need to tell me.

If you're still trying and growing in that area, then I'd like to

know that from you. I don't want to expect or ask for things you

can't do. I'm not willing to stop making requests, but I'm becoming

disheartened and discouraged from making them. Please tell me

honestly where you're at, if you can handle a relationship where my

needs are as important as yours. Tell me if my needs are more than

you can handle right now, so I won't keep asking you to give if you

don't want to.

I hope we can resolve this, and I've thought of some reasons

it may be happening:

In our relationship we've found we can risk asking for what we

want and find needs met that our exes didn't meet. This is such a

good thing for both of us, but it creates something for each of us to

deal with when our expressed needs aren't met. This is where I'm

struggling to be flexible.

Together we're free to be ourselves and be accepted for who we are

by someone that loves us. I'm finding that with this, I'm able to

ask for my needs to be met and its okay to be needy and ask. I'm

also finding that being with you has taught me what its like to love

someone enough to find the ability to put my needs behind yours

sometimes. This is a good thing and I'm willing to do it until it

becomes impossible for me. It becomes impossible when you reject my

requests.

Being divorced we have a freedom to find what we want in our own

lives. Sometimes that freedom conflicts with how much we can give

each other, and we both have heavy duties on us we've never had to

bear alone that conflict with our ability to give.

You're stronger willed than I am and I let you lead, which leads

to me needing to speak up at times like this. Speaking up is good

and healthy, and I like that you listen to me when I do.

It would probably help if I give you examples of what I'm talking

about:

Then I put in some examples...here's one of them...

The whole romancing me as a woman issue that I brought up

before pains me to bring up again, but I will because it's important

and I just can't understand why after we talked it hasn't changed.

This is the biggest reason I wonder about past behavior predicting

future behavior. You told me then that it's okay for me to want

notes, cards, flowers, etc. You told me that you know to do these

things, have no excuse for not doing them, but yet you continue to

not do them. I continue to reach out and give you these sorts of

things, but you aren't reciprocating. I don't understand. Its

taking away my heartfelt desire to please you with notes and little

tokens of love when you won't give them to me. I want to do these

things in a relationship, and I want them back. But it's become

something that hurts to keep giving because I can't expect them from

you. Nobody wants to nag someone to give them tokens of love, so I

hate to even have to say it again.

After reading all of this, I hope you hear what I'm saying,

that I'm not seeing this in a selfish way, and that we can talk about

it. I need to know if you hear what I ask for, if it matters to you,

and if you are willing and able to make some of my needs a priority

in your life so we can both have the happy relationship we both want

and deserve in life.

e

---------------------------------

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October 16, 2006

I just want to let you know, I'm trying to be helpful, not offensive,

and I'm sorry if I sound kinda harsh. I kinda have strong feelings on

some subjects, and I'm just expressing my opinion, which really

doesn't need to matter a hill-o-beans to you, you can ignore me or

take with liberal amounts of salt.

Ok, for one: your letter is too long. I think there's nothing wrong

with asking for what you want, but I think you need to get to the

point. I kinda had to re-read it a few times cuz I kept tuning-out.

Is the only thing you are asking for " love tokens " ?

Overall, you can't ask someone to give something that's not in them.

If it's something you can't live without & it's not in them, then you

have to look elsewhere for it. It's sad, but true. You repeat that

" past behavior is indicative of future behavior, " take it to heart; if

he's not the type of person to leave love notes, you can't make him

that type of person. (But there actually is a little hope in

" training " a person

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/25/fashion/25love.html?ex=1161144000 & en=e35a90e12\

4d8bc39 & ei=5070

it involves positive rewards)

If you want romance in a relationship, sometimes you have to do it

yourself. But real relationships aren't built on romance; they are

built on trust, communication, & shared experiences. I find love in a

relationship in the every day mundane; sitting on the couch together,

him letting me have the remote now & then, getting me a glass of

water, the words " i love you, " getting me Tylenol when I'm sick. The

way I feel about my relationship is; love is something you live, you

can't express that in any kind of token.

I think the real question you should be asking is: why do you feel the

need for love to be expressed thru physical objects?

But as for the overall question: how do you know if what you want is

unreasonable? The answer (as I see it) is: is the other person

willing & able to give it to you? Honestly, I don't think it's

unreasonable to ask anything of anyone. It's your expectations to get

what you've asked for that might be unreasonable. You can ask your

Nada to play nice on some particular occasion, and you can hope, but

you probably don't expect it because it's not something she can give

you, and if you did expect it, then at the end of the day you'd

probably just be sad. You've learned what you can and can't expect

from your Nada, so you've also learned what you can and can't expect

from your sig-other, despite what you ask of him.

So, in you're particular instance I say; you've already asked, so

you're at the point where you have to stop expecting love notes, but

don't give up hope, and look for signs of his love elsewhere, and be

sure to praise him when you find them!

>

> I don't know if its okay to post something not directly related to

> BPD person but more of a flea or aftermath I've got because of

> growing up with BPD mother. If this isn't appropriate, then I trust

> the mods will remove it and let me know

> Of course its long, because I just haven't learned how to be brief in

> writing yet!

> Here's my challenge: In a relationship its hard to ask for what I

> want. I'm learning, and its been step by step a good choice. BUT I

> still get the jitters when things happen that lead to me feeling like

> I have lately. I'm going to speak up, again, and I guess I'm doubting

> if I even know how to do it right. I've put all my thoughts in a

> letter and am doing it face to face, but my big question is: How do

> you know if what you want is reasonable or if you're being too

> demanding because you were stepped on so much by others that were

> mentally ill? This boundary stuff is hard, and i guess its like

> sticking up for myself and saying what I want.

> If anyone here who's got successful marriage experience can help me

> with some words of experience, guidance and/or reality, I sure could

> use them. I'm questioning if this is all about me being childishly

> demanding or if its how healthy people do this in a healthy

> relationship. I want healthy, but I'm still learning. So is he by

> the way, so that helps...but then I guess we're all learning huh?

> Some with unique challenges others don't have :/

>

> Here's most of what I've written and am taking a deep breath to talk

> to him about. I'd ask a girlfriend, but she doesn't get the whole

> boundary thing from BPD fallout...

>

> Dear sweetie,

> We're talking about a future together and one thing I'm concerned

> about is the old adage: the best predictor of future behavior is past

> behavior. I want to know what I can expect from you in the future,

> but I realize that we're both growing as individuals and as a

> couple. I love you very much, and I don't want either of us to be

> hurt. The thing I worry about in the future is about expectations

> and meeting each others' needs. I'm putting this in writing so I can

> really think about it and clearly say what I'm feeling, and so I can

> give this as much thought as something this important deserves.

> I've reached a point where I don't know any other ways to ask

> you for what I want in areas of our relationship. I've tried the

> approaches you've told me will work with you, but they don't seem to

> be working: 1. I've been direct and told you what I want; 2. I've

> been understanding of other demands in your life; and 3. I've waited

> as patiently as I'm able.

> I've done what you asked in trying to get what I want, but it seems

> like it's just not important enough to motivate you. I don't see,

> based on your words vs. your actions, that meeting my expressed needs

> is a priority for you. It feels like you are more intent on meeting

> your own needs and keeping me around to make you happy, while things