Guest guest Posted March 21, 2006 Report Posted March 21, 2006 Dear work, Sometimes, I'd like to understand what you are saying. Or at least think about what you are saying. And, as you may have noticed, I love to repeat what I think you said, in my own words. Are you saying that emotion needs a justification, ever? And that a clear person would not cry? It sounds to me, as that your point is that " being clear " is a state. A goal that can be reached. I don't think the work is about " reaching some point of bliss and keeping permanently still in that place " . At the end, being stuck in realization... is still being stuck. I see life as a flow. Thoughts come, thoughts go. I can try to hold onto a thought, or let it go. Observing the flow is not painful. Attaching to a thought in the moment it moves away, is painful. What you say, also sounds to me as if inquiring into thoughts had something to do with actions. Like doing the work would prevent me from taking actions. Do you? Love, Am 21.03.2006 um 01:35 schrieb lovetheworkofbk: > >> >> Story: a young monk was walking in the monastery garden when he >> heard sobbing. He came upon the monastery's zen master, >> crying. " What is the matter, master? " the young monk inquires. The >> old abbot holds up a sheet of paper, saying, " I just received this >> letter; my dearest nephew died an untimely death. " And he begins >> sobbing again. " But master, " the young monk persists, " didn't you >> repeatedly teach us that death is just an illusion? " At that, the >> zen master swats the boy's head with the letter, saying, " Of course >> it is an illusion, you young fool! But it is the most painful >> illusion. " >> > > Sounds like a cool story, if you want to justify emotions such as > grief etc. Would a Zen master really be upset over death? I really > don't think so. How could anyone be sad over death if they truly had > realized that the ONLY place anyone really lives is in our thoughts? > > Nope ... this is not a story about the clarity of Zen masters, but the > confusion of an over active ego. > > Lets pursue the " happy dream " and have no more of this rubbish ___________________________________________________________ Telefonate ohne weitere Kosten vom PC zum PC: http://messenger.yahoo.de Quote
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2006 Report Posted March 21, 2006 > Story: a young monk was walking in the monastery garden when he > heard sobbing. He came upon the monastery's zen master, > crying. " What is the matter, master? " the young monk inquires. The > old abbot holds up a sheet of paper, saying, " I just received this > letter; my dearest nephew died an untimely death. " And he begins > sobbing again. " But master, " the young monk persists, " didn't you > repeatedly teach us that death is just an illusion? " At that, the > zen master swats the boy's head with the letter, saying, " Of course > it is an illusion, you young fool! But it is the most painful > illusion. " Sounds like a cool story, if you want to justify emotions such as grief etc. Would a Zen master really be upset over death? I really don't think so. *****You don't THINK so. Yes, I get that. But do you have any firsthand, personal experience? Have you actually examined any evidence (i.e., conversed with a " real live living zen master " )? Or is this simply thought speaking? Speculation? If you want to be taken serious, find one. Ask him or her. Then come back and tell us. *****As I've said before, I have been in close, personal touch with about six " professional " sages (zen, Advaita, etc.) over the past 25 years. Some were Japanese, some Indian, some American. I can only speak from those experiences. None of the sages I know personally have EVER denied the place of emotion in their lives. I have never personally met a living human being (sage or otherwise) who has asserted that they NEVER, EVER experience any upsetting emotions. I'm not sure that Byron has said that about herself. All of the sages I've discussed this with point out that we have no control over the appearance, the intial arising of the emotions. What the awakened say is this: once the emotional state becomes apparent (that is we experience it in consciousness...for example, we notice that " there is sadness, " or " there is fear " ), at THAT point (and not before) one can aim to cut off the horizontal involvement in the emotional state (i.e., see it as the thought that it is). Until then (the moment that the emotion enters conscious awareness), we can't do a thing. How could anyone be sad over death if they truly had realized that the ONLY place anyone really lives is in our thoughts? *****Yes, I understand that you can't see this. It's not there for you yet. You don't get, apparently that sadness over death also lives in our thoughts. It's ALL thought (including the emotion born of thought). Yes, ultimately, then, it is a dream and one need not fret about any of it. But still, regardless of this insight, thoughts arise and emotions follow, the plow following the path of the ox. Nope ... this is not a story about the clarity of Zen masters, but the confusion of an over active ego. *****The initial *arising* of a painful emotion is not under our control. Previously you have noted that the teaching here is thought ---> emotion ---> action. I used to dispute this with you. I now agree. But where does that initial thought come from? Do " you " have any control over it? As BK has said, repeatedly, " You can't drop a thought because you didn't create it in the first place. " So....thoughts arise, and some thoughts provoke painful emotions. Now, WHEN that is seen, by thought, the validity of it can be questioned (using some " tool, " e.g. The Work or meditaiton or prayer of cognitive psychology, all of which, ultimately aim at creating a dissociation between " me " and " thought, " allow the " me " to see that I am ultimately NOT thought). But this process of undoing painful thoughts only starts ONCE the painful emotion happens, is felt, and is recognized. It can't be undone until it appears. Lets pursue the " happy dream " and have no more of this rubbish *****This can only happen when, and more importantly, IF the desire (which is thought) arises to provoke the pursuit. Until then, no movement towards it. Quote
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2006 Report Posted March 21, 2006 Dear Andy and Lovethework, I have been following and enjoying your conversation here regarding the Andy's Zen story. I would like to toss in my 2 cents worth. I would agree that we have no control over what thoughts arise within our awareness. I would also agree that, if we have not previously come to understand that that thought is not true; then it will produce a feeling. If I experience that feeling as " painful, stressful, depressing, etc " then the key for me is how long will I allow that feeling to persist prior to investigating the thought and undoing that feeling. What I have found is that the more peace I have experienced, then the less pain I am willing to endure and the faster I will move to undo the lie causing that pain and return to a peaceful state. I guess that what I am saying here is that for me the real key is that once we have a tool such as The Work, then how much time are we willing to delay in doing what we know will return us to a peaceful state. I can not say what an " enlightened person " experiences but I personally am still discovering thoughts that create what I experience as negative feelings and finding myself resisting using The Work to undo my untrue beliefs. but I can say that the resistance time is growing shorter and shorter.. Blessings, Steve D. > > > Story: a young monk was walking in the monastery garden when he > > heard sobbing. He came upon the monastery's zen master, > > crying. " What is the matter, master? " the young monk inquires. The > > old abbot holds up a sheet of paper, saying, " I just received this > > letter; my dearest nephew died an untimely death. " And he begins > > sobbing again. " But master, " the young monk persists, " didn't you > > repeatedly teach us that death is just an illusion? " At that, the > > zen master swats the boy's head with the letter, saying, " Of course > > it is an illusion, you young fool! But it is the most painful > > illusion. " > > > Sounds like a cool story, if you want to justify emotions such as > grief etc. Would a Zen master really be upset over death? I really > don't think so. > > > > *****You don't THINK so. Yes, I get that. But do you have any > firsthand, personal experience? Have you actually examined any > evidence (i.e., conversed with a " real live living zen master " )? Or > is this simply thought speaking? Speculation? If you want to be > taken serious, find one. Ask him or her. Then come back and tell us. > > > *****As I've said before, I have been in close, personal touch with > about six " professional " sages (zen, Advaita, etc.) over the past 25 > years. Some were Japanese, some Indian, some American. I can only > speak from those experiences. None of the sages I know personally > have EVER denied the place of emotion in their lives. I have never > personally met a living human being (sage or otherwise) who has > asserted that they NEVER, EVER experience any upsetting emotions. > I'm not sure that Byron has said that about herself. All of > the sages I've discussed this with point out that we have no control > over the appearance, the intial arising of the emotions. What the > awakened say is this: once the emotional state becomes apparent (that > is we experience it in consciousness...for example, we notice > that " there is sadness, " or " there is fear " ), at THAT point (and not > before) one can aim to cut off the horizontal involvement in the > emotional state (i.e., see it as the thought that it is). Until then > (the moment that the emotion enters conscious awareness), we can't do > a thing. > > > > > How could anyone be sad over death if they truly had realized that > the ONLY place anyone really lives is in our thoughts? > > > *****Yes, I understand that you can't see this. It's not there for > you yet. You don't get, apparently that sadness over death also > lives in our thoughts. It's ALL thought (including the emotion born > of thought). Yes, ultimately, then, it is a dream and one need not > fret about any of it. But still, regardless of this insight, > thoughts arise and emotions follow, the plow following the path of > the ox. > > > Nope ... this is not a story about the clarity of Zen masters, but the > confusion of an over active ego. > > > *****The initial *arising* of a painful emotion is not under our > control. Previously you have noted that the teaching here is > thought ---> emotion ---> action. I used to dispute this with you. > I now agree. But where does that initial thought come from? > Do " you " have any control over it? As BK has said, repeatedly, " You > can't drop a thought because you didn't create it in the first > place. " So....thoughts arise, and some thoughts provoke painful > emotions. Now, WHEN that is seen, by thought, the validity of it can > be questioned (using some " tool, " e.g. The Work or meditaiton or > prayer of cognitive psychology, all of which, ultimately aim at > creating a dissociation between " me " and " thought, " allow the " me " to > see that I am ultimately NOT thought). But this process of undoing > painful thoughts only starts ONCE the painful emotion happens, is > felt, and is recognized. It can't be undone until it appears. > > > > Lets pursue the " happy dream " and have no more of this rubbish > > > *****This can only happen when, and more importantly, IF the desire > (which is thought) arises to provoke the pursuit. Until then, no > movement towards it. > Quote
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2006 Report Posted March 21, 2006 Andy, I agree that a master could still feel sadness over death or their own death.. I dont have any exact quote but i remember in having read Autobiography of a Yogi that Yogananda was sad about his death becaues he was worried how his disciples would handle it. (i think) and was upset with his gurus death momentarily. Of course his guru came to him eventually and spoke with him. and he was able to communicate with disciples. STill I think the thought of losing the form is still upsetting due to the attachment to the body.. despite being realized. Yogananda consciously left his body after giving a speech at the Biltmore hotel in LA. in a room which is now the lobby. The lobby has a peacefulness to it still. love, roslyn -- In Loving-what-is , " Andy " wrote: > > > > > Story: a young monk was walking in the monastery garden when he > > heard sobbing. He came upon the monastery's zen master, > > crying. " What is the matter, master? " the young monk inquires. The > > old abbot holds up a sheet of paper, saying, " I just received this > > letter; my dearest nephew died an untimely death. " And he begins > > sobbing again. " But master, " the young monk persists, " didn't you > > repeatedly teach us that death is just an illusion? " At that, the > > zen master swats the boy's head with the letter, saying, " Of course > > it is an illusion, you young fool! But it is the most painful > > illusion. " > > > Sounds like a cool story, if you want to justify emotions such as > grief etc. Would a Zen master really be upset over death? I really > don't think so. > > > > *****You don't THINK so. Yes, I get that. But do you have any > firsthand, personal experience? Have you actually examined any > evidence (i.e., conversed with a " real live living zen master " )? Or > is this simply thought speaking? Speculation? If you want to be > taken serious, find one. Ask him or her. Then come back and tell us. > > > *****As I've said before, I have been in close, personal touch with > about six " professional " sages (zen, Advaita, etc.) over the past 25 > years. Some were Japanese, some Indian, some American. I can only > speak from those experiences. None of the sages I know personally > have EVER denied the place of emotion in their lives. I have never > personally met a living human being (sage or otherwise) who has > asserted that they NEVER, EVER experience any upsetting emotions. > I'm not sure that Byron has said that about herself. All of > the sages I've discussed this with point out that we have no control > over the appearance, the intial arising of the emotions. What the > awakened say is this: once the emotional state becomes apparent (that > is we experience it in consciousness...for example, we notice > that " there is sadness, " or " there is fear " ), at THAT point (and not > before) one can aim to cut off the horizontal involvement in the > emotional state (i.e., see it as the thought that it is). Until then > (the moment that the emotion enters conscious awareness), we can't do > a thing. > > > > > How could anyone be sad over death if they truly had realized that > the ONLY place anyone really lives is in our thoughts? > > > *****Yes, I understand that you can't see this. It's not there for > you yet. You don't get, apparently that sadness over death also > lives in our thoughts. It's ALL thought (including the emotion born > of thought). Yes, ultimately, then, it is a dream and one need not > fret about any of it. But still, regardless of this insight, > thoughts arise and emotions follow, the plow following the path of > the ox. > > > Nope ... this is not a story about the clarity of Zen masters, but the > confusion of an over active ego. > > > *****The initial *arising* of a painful emotion is not under our > control. Previously you have noted that the teaching here is > thought ---> emotion ---> action. I used to dispute this with you. > I now agree. But where does that initial thought come from? > Do " you " have any control over it? As BK has said, repeatedly, " You > can't drop a thought because you didn't create it in the first > place. " So....thoughts arise, and some thoughts provoke painful > emotions. Now, WHEN that is seen, by thought, the validity of it can > be questioned (using some " tool, " e.g. The Work or meditaiton or > prayer of cognitive psychology, all of which, ultimately aim at > creating a dissociation between " me " and " thought, " allow the " me " to > see that I am ultimately NOT thought). But this process of undoing > painful thoughts only starts ONCE the painful emotion happens, is > felt, and is recognized. It can't be undone until it appears. > > > > Lets pursue the " happy dream " and have no more of this rubbish > > > *****This can only happen when, and more importantly, IF the desire > (which is thought) arises to provoke the pursuit. Until then, no > movement towards it. > Quote
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2006 Report Posted March 21, 2006 I agree too I am a master too (what the hell is a master?) And trust me I can feel sadness over death, or even over smaller things Like: when I wake up in the morning and just feel sad, Dah! ;-) THE MORE I WRITE HERE THE MORE I SEE HOW AMAZING I AM T -- Re: Andy's Zen story Andy, I agree that a master could still feel sadness over death or their own death.. I dont have any exact quote but i remember in having read Autobiography of a Yogi that Yogananda was sad about his death becaues he was worried how his disciples would handle it. (i think) and was upset with his gurus death momentarily. Of course his guru came to him eventually and spoke with him. and he was able to communicate with disciples. STill I think the thought of losing the form is still upsetting due to the attachment to the body.. despite being realized. Yogananda consciously left his body after giving a speech at the Biltmore hotel in LA. in a room which is now the lobby. The lobby has a peacefulness to it still. love, roslyn -- In Loving-what-is , " Andy " wrote: > > > > > Story: a young monk was walking in the monastery garden when he > > heard sobbing. He came upon the monastery's zen master, > > crying. " What is the matter, master? " the young monk inquires. The > > old abbot holds up a sheet of paper, saying, " I just received this > > letter; my dearest nephew died an untimely death. " And he begins > > sobbing again. " But master, " the young monk persists, " didn't you > > repeatedly teach us that death is just an illusion? " At that, the > > zen master swats the boy's head with the letter, saying, " Of course > > it is an illusion, you young fool! But it is the most painful > > illusion. " > > > Sounds like a cool story, if you want to justify emotions such as > grief etc. Would a Zen master really be upset over death? I really > don't think so. > > > > *****You don't THINK so. Yes, I get that. But do you have any > firsthand, personal experience? Have you actually examined any > evidence (i.e., conversed with a " real live living zen master " )? Or > is this simply thought speaking? Speculation? If you want to be > taken serious, find one. Ask him or her. Then come back and tell us. > > > *****As I've said before, I have been in close, personal touch with > about six " professional " sages (zen, Advaita, etc.) over the past 25 > years. Some were Japanese, some Indian, some American. I can only > speak from those experiences. None of the sages I know personally > have EVER denied the place of emotion in their lives. I have never > personally met a living human being (sage or otherwise) who has > asserted that they NEVER, EVER experience any upsetting emotions. > I'm not sure that Byron has said that about herself. All of > the sages I've discussed this with point out that we have no control > over the appearance, the intial arising of the emotions. What the > awakened say is this: once the emotional state becomes apparent (that > is we experience it in consciousness...for example, we notice > that " there is sadness, " or " there is fear " ), at THAT point (and not > before) one can aim to cut off the horizontal involvement in the > emotional state (i.e., see it as the thought that it is). Until then > (the moment that the emotion enters conscious awareness), we can't do > a thing. > > > > > How could anyone be sad over death if they truly had realized that > the ONLY place anyone really lives is in our thoughts? > > > *****Yes, I understand that you can't see this. It's not there for > you yet. You don't get, apparently that sadness over death also > lives in our thoughts. It's ALL thought (including the emotion born > of thought). Yes, ultimately, then, it is a dream and one need not > fret about any of it. But still, regardless of this insight, > thoughts arise and emotions follow, the plow following the path of > the ox. > > > Nope ... this is not a story about the clarity of Zen masters, but the > confusion of an over active ego. > > > *****The initial *arising* of a painful emotion is not under our > control. Previously you have noted that the teaching here is > thought ---> emotion ---> action. I used to dispute this with you. > I now agree. But where does that initial thought come from? > Do " you " have any control over it? As BK has said, repeatedly, " You > can't drop a thought because you didn't create it in the first > place. " So....thoughts arise, and some thoughts provoke painful > emotions. Now, WHEN that is seen, by thought, the validity of it can > be questioned (using some " tool, " e.g. The Work or meditaiton or > prayer of cognitive psychology, all of which, ultimately aim at > creating a dissociation between " me " and " thought, " allow the " me " to > see that I am ultimately NOT thought). But this process of undoing > painful thoughts only starts ONCE the painful emotion happens, is > felt, and is recognized. It can't be undone until it appears. > > > > Lets pursue the " happy dream " and have no more of this rubbish > > > *****This can only happen when, and more importantly, IF the desire > (which is thought) arises to provoke the pursuit. Until then, no > movement towards it. > Quote
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2006 Report Posted March 21, 2006 > > > *****You don't THINK so. Yes, I get that. But do you have any > firsthand, personal experience? Have you actually examined any > evidence (i.e., conversed with a " real live living zen master " )? > Or is this simply thought speaking? Speculation? If you want to > be taken serious, find one. Ask him or her. Then come back and > tell us. > > ROTFLMAO ... Do I have firsthand personal experience? Does 20+ years sitting zazen everyday constitute enough personal experience? Having sat in the presence of at least three Zen masters, what always impressed me was their deep peace and joy. I NEVER saw grief or sadness. Now during a Zen retreat where we would sit eight hours a day for up to seven days in a row, when everyone else is just about going insane with the pain in their body I never saw a trace of pain or distress in the face of the master. I have not yet had the pleasure of sitting with , but I have all her videos and tapes and I am also struck by the fact that she NEVER gets upset around or buys into the story she is hearing. Men and women get up on stage with the most " terrible " stories of rape, incest, great personal loss and I never see shed a tear even when everyone else in the audience is crying their eyes out. Her joy is unbroken even in the face of the worst nightmares imaginable. I love 's story of when she went to her fathers funeral. As I understand it she was quite joyful at the event even when her mother was falling apart at the death of her husband. and the Zen masters are for me proof that it is indeed possible to live a life totally WITHOUT grief, sadness, anger, pain etc. After all it wouldn't be much of a " happy dream " if there were even the slightest moments of grief or sadness! Have a beautiful day " Sanity doesn't suffer, ever . . . ever! Sanity doesn't suffer, ever, ever! Isn't that lovely? " Byron Quote
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2006 Report Posted March 21, 2006 Hey Rosyln ~ You wrote, " STill I think the thought of losing the form is still upsetting due to the attachment to the body..despite being realized. " *****Yes. That is how I see it. Attachments happen. Plain and simple. I know of no one who has none at all. And it is useful, perhaps to recognize that we never willfully construct the attachments. But they are there. We can do The Work, and some attachments may fall away. And we can do more. And more attachments can fall away. But I don't believe we can force them to evaporate. They leave in their own time. Quote
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2006 Report Posted March 21, 2006 > > *****The initial *arising* of a painful emotion is not under our > control. Previously you have noted that the teaching here is > thought ---> emotion ---> action. I used to dispute this with > you. I now agree. But where does that initial thought come from? > Do " you " have any control over it? As BK has said, > repeatedly, " You can't drop a thought because you didn't create it > in the first place. " So....thoughts arise, and some thoughts > provoke painful emotions. Now, WHEN that is seen, by thought, the > validity of it can be questioned (using some " tool, " e.g. The Work > or meditaiton or prayer of cognitive psychology, all of which, > ultimately aim at creating a dissociation between " me " > and " thought, " allow the " me " to see that I am ultimately NOT > thought). But this process of undoing > painful thoughts only starts ONCE the painful emotion happens, is > felt, and is recognized. It can't be undone until it appears. > What you seem to be missing Andy is that once a painful thought is undone, then when it arises next time all it brings is a gentle smile. Sure we have NO control over the thoughts which arise, but it doesn't matter what arises when all the painful stories are undone because they are all met with a joyful laughter. The Work reveals the truth i.e. love and in that, grief, sorrow, loss and anger simply do not exist. A truly realized master by definition simply CANNOT experience grief, sorrow, loss or anger because the THOUGHTS which cause them are undone and are met only with a smile. Welcome to the " happy dream " . Have a beautiful day " There's nothing between you and love but unquestioned concepts. " Byron Quote
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2006 Report Posted March 21, 2006 ROTFLMAO ... Do I have firsthand personal experience? Does 20+ years sitting zazen everyday constitute enough personal experience? *****An impressive resume. And I both honor and respect that. The life you describe sounds like an excellent petri dish for inquiry. Having sat in the presence of at least three Zen masters, what always impressed me was their deep peace and joy. I NEVER saw grief or sadness. *****Well, our experiences differ. Not only did I SEE grief and sadness (and joy and laughter and upset) but the zen abbots with whom I studied (both male and female) talked of their " feelings. " Here is what one said: " I've learned two things [in all my years of Zen practice]. One is not to be afraid of my emotions. The other is that everything is impermanent. " Now during a Zen retreat where we would sit eight hours a day for up to seven days in a row, when everyone else is just about going insane with the pain in their body I never saw a trace of pain or distress in the face of the master. *****Yes, I've seen that too during sesshins, although " just about going insane with the pain in their body " does not correlate with the weeklong sesshins I've attended. Discomfort? Yes. Pain...well in the monastery I lived in, enduring pain was not encouraged. I've seen such quietude on the faces of the monks and some practitioners as well. It doesn't impress me. Marathon events inspire marathon efforts. I have not yet had the pleasure of sitting with , but I have all her videos and tapes and I am also struck by the fact that she NEVER gets upset around or buys into the story she is hearing. *****Yes, from what I have seen of her she does not get hooked into peoples' stories. (And that is a talent that effective psychotherapists also have.) I wasn't talking about that. I just don't know whether or not she has any upsetting thoughts. We'd have to ask her, eh? :-) But based on your telling of 's story about her father's funeral, I'd say you were correct, nothing fazes her. And, in one sense, I *get* that. Recognizing the illusion that this life, this world, is, Realizing it on a profoundly complete level, .... then where is there cause for upset? About anything? But you will note, this is not something that she trained herself to See. It *happened* to her. It occurred as a result of some Grace. She neither sought it (via the Work, which didn't exist at that time) nor worked for it. It arose, as she tells it, through her, ... effortlessly. All I can say is that for me, upsets happen, grief arises, attachments are made. At this point, for me, the best that can be done is to examine them and question their validity, and this only happens when there is a conscious awareness of the pain they are causing. Quote
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2006 Report Posted March 21, 2006 Dear Steve ~ How wonderful to see you in print again! I was always touched by your posts: reasoned, sane, compassionate, even when we didn't always agree, for me you were always a welcomed voice. You wrote, " What I have found is that the more peace I have experienced, then the less pain I am willing to endure and the faster I will move to undo the lie causing that pain and return to a peaceful state. " *****Nicely put. This has been my experience also. I guess that what I am saying here is that for me the real key is that once we have a tool such as The Work, then how much time are we willing to delay in doing what we know will return us to a peaceful state. *****And I would say that that amount of time is not up to us. What moves us to do (or not do) things is not up to us. I can not say what an " enlightened person " experiences but I personally am still discovering thoughts that create what I experience as negative feelings and finding myself resisting using The Work to undo my untrue beliefs. but I can say that the resistance time is growing shorter and shorter.. *****Learning curves are individual. Comparison pointless. You are awake enough to realize the negative feelings AND the resistance to undoing your " untrue beliefs " (are there any " true " beliefs or is that an oxymoron?). Sounds like a pretty peaceful, sane, calm, serene life to me! Quote
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2006 Report Posted March 21, 2006 > > But you will note, this is not something that she trained herself > to See. It *happened* to her. It occurred as a result of some > Grace. She neither sought it (via the Work, which didn't exist at > that time) nor worked for it. It arose, as she tells it, through > her, ... effortlessly. > Yes, you raise an important point Andy As pointed out in ACIM the last step to raise us up to heaven is taken by God we CANNOT do it. What is required of the dreamers is a little willingness to question the nightmare and find the " happy dream " . 's awakening for me was like the use of a koan in Zen buddhism. Except that her koan was " I want to die " rather than " What is the sound of one hand clapping " . Regardless of the koan used it opened her mind to an awakening. LOL ... thankfully now we have the Work to create a space for awakening rather than being depressed for 10 years and repeating the koan " I want to die " . " There's nothing between you and love but unquestioned concepts. " Byron Quote
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2006 Report Posted March 22, 2006 Dear LovetheworkofBK, You said: " and the Zen masters are for me proof that it is indeed possible to live a life totally WITHOUT grief, sadness, anger, pain etc. After all it wouldn't be much of a " happy dream " if there were even the slightest moments of grief or sadness! Have a beautiful day " Not that it matters, but this matches my experience of and I totally agree with you that a Happy Dream is 100% Happy or it is not a Happy Dream. Thank you for stating this in this way. Blessings, Steve D. > > > > > > *****You don't THINK so. Yes, I get that. But do you have any > > firsthand, personal experience? Have you actually examined any > > evidence (i.e., conversed with a " real live living zen master " )? > > Or is this simply thought speaking? Speculation? If you want to > > be taken serious, find one. Ask him or her. Then come back and > > tell us. > > > > > > ROTFLMAO ... Do I have firsthand personal experience? Does 20+ years > sitting zazen everyday constitute enough personal experience? Having > sat in the presence of at least three Zen masters, what always > impressed me was their deep peace and joy. I NEVER saw grief or > sadness. Now during a Zen retreat where we would sit eight hours a > day for up to seven days in a row, when everyone else is just about > going insane with the pain in their body I never saw a trace of pain > or distress in the face of the master. > I have not yet had the pleasure of sitting with , but I have > all her videos and tapes and I am also struck by the fact that she > NEVER gets upset around or buys into the story she is hearing. Men > and women get up on stage with the most " terrible " stories of rape, > incest, great personal loss and I never see shed a tear even > when everyone else in the audience is crying their eyes out. Her joy > is unbroken even in the face of the worst nightmares imaginable. > I love 's story of when she went to her fathers funeral. As I > understand it she was quite joyful at the event even when her mother > was falling apart at the death of her husband. > and the Zen masters are for me proof that it is indeed > possible to live a life totally WITHOUT grief, sadness, anger, pain > etc. After all it wouldn't be much of a " happy dream " if there were > even the slightest moments of grief or sadness! > > Have a beautiful day > > " Sanity doesn't suffer, ever . . . ever! Sanity doesn't suffer, > ever, ever! Isn't that lovely? " Byron > Quote
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2006 Report Posted March 22, 2006 Dear LovetheworkofBK, You said: " What you seem to be missing Andy is that once a painful thought is undone, then when it arises next time all it brings is a gentle smile. Sure we have NO control over the thoughts which arise, but it doesn't matter what arises when all the painful stories are undone because they are all met with a joyful laughter. " Yes,I agree again. This matches my experience. Once a thought is " really undone " then it can only bring laughter if it arises. Sometimes we do the work on a belief and think it is undone. This is why we have the Turnaround for #6 -- I look forward to. Blessings, Steve D. > > > > *****The initial *arising* of a painful emotion is not under our > > control. Previously you have noted that the teaching here is > > thought ---> emotion ---> action. I used to dispute this with > > you. I now agree. But where does that initial thought come from? > > Do " you " have any control over it? As BK has said, > > repeatedly, " You can't drop a thought because you didn't create it > > in the first place. " So....thoughts arise, and some thoughts > > provoke painful emotions. Now, WHEN that is seen, by thought, the > > validity of it can be questioned (using some " tool, " e.g. The Work > > or meditaiton or prayer of cognitive psychology, all of which, > > ultimately aim at creating a dissociation between " me " > > and " thought, " allow the " me " to see that I am ultimately NOT > > thought). But this process of undoing > > painful thoughts only starts ONCE the painful emotion happens, is > > felt, and is recognized. It can't be undone until it appears. > > > > What you seem to be missing Andy is that once a painful thought is > undone, then when it arises next time all it brings is a gentle > smile. Sure we have NO control over the thoughts which arise, but it > doesn't matter what arises when all the painful stories are undone > because they are all met with a joyful laughter. > The Work reveals the truth i.e. love and in that, grief, sorrow, > loss and anger simply do not exist. A truly realized master by > definition simply CANNOT experience grief, sorrow, loss or anger > because the THOUGHTS which cause them are undone and are met only > with a smile. Welcome to the " happy dream " . > > Have a beautiful day > > > " There's nothing between you and love but unquestioned concepts. " > Byron > Quote
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2006 Report Posted March 22, 2006 Dear Andy, Thanks for the kind words. > > I guess that what I am saying here is that for me the real key is > that once we have a tool such as The Work, then how much time are we > willing to delay in doing what we know will return us to a peaceful > state. > > *****And I would say that that amount of time is not up to us. What > moves us to do (or not do) things is not up to us. ##Andy, thank you for this reminder. Yes, I agree that we are not the doer and it is not up to us. (are there any " true " beliefs or is > that an oxymoron?). ## Yes, an oxymoron. Sounds like a pretty peaceful, sane, calm, serene life to me! ##That is my experience. Blessings, Steve D. Quote
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2006 Report Posted March 22, 2006 I agree.. DAya Mata who is the president of Self Realization said that if a dream hand hits a dream wall it experiences dream pain. or something similar. I think it just goes along with being human and being on this planet. The difference is probably that masters dont stay in the delusion very long. AS you said they probably question and get out of it r -- In Loving-what-is , " Andy " wrote: > > > > Hey Rosyln ~ > > You wrote, " STill I think the thought of losing the form is still > upsetting due to the attachment to the body..despite being realized. " > > > *****Yes. That is how I see it. Attachments happen. Plain and > simple. I know of no one who has none at all. And it is useful, > perhaps to recognize that we never willfully construct the > attachments. But they are there. We can do The Work, and some > attachments may fall away. And we can do more. And more attachments > can fall away. But I don't believe we can force them to evaporate. > They leave in their own time. > Quote
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