Guest guest Posted August 22, 2006 Report Posted August 22, 2006 > You completely misunderstood my point. I don't doubt that these things are > true. I think science is a reliable way to learn as much truth as possible > about how the world works. I very much DO hang on to what we know and I > try > to learn more. > > I was only trying to point out how imprecise language is and how it can > get > us into real trouble when we start saying something is " absolutely " true. > The statement " If you take a knife and cut your skin, blood will come out " > seems absolutely true. But if you depend on it to be absolutely true all > the > time, you may find that you are wrong. There ARE exceptions. I have done > bunion surgery on a patient where I cut the patient's skin with a knife > and > blood did not come out (due to pre-op preparation involving a tourniquet). > You would have to specify cutting the skin NOW, with no preparation, under > specified conditions of gravity, air pressure, temperature, etc. etc. and > you might still not think of all the possibilities. > > We can trust the things that have been tested, and we can trust the skin > to > bleed when cut (although we should be ready to admit that it may not do so > always or under all circumstances). What bothers me is when people trust > things that have not been tested, or things that have been tested and have > failed the tests. Some people who believe in absolute truth also believe > in > obtaining that truth by intuition or authority, without testing. Many > people > believe their religions offer absolute truth; but different religions > offer > different absolute truths. If you accept " truth " prematurely, without > adequate testing, you are only giving yourself a false sense of security. > That has been compared to anchoring oneself in a sea with no bottom. > > Critical thinkers follow these tenets of the scientific method: > (1) Test your hypotheses/beliefs - look at the evidence. > (2) Be willing to change your mind when the evidence warrants. > > The people at Mingling of the Minds and the little brother in the Tooth > Fairy fable wanted to believe without testing and wanted to ignore any > results of testing that didn't support their beliefs. They were secure. > They > felt they knew the absolute truth. They were wrong. _______________________________________________________ > > > Sorry, but I don't debate long with people who argue that we don't know > anything " for sure " . Here's one even my young son came up with, " If you > take a knife and cut your skin, blood will come out. " No need for > debate. Science won't prove that wrong. If in " some remote > science-fictionish future some advanced technology might be capable of > warping our planet surface into a flat form " that would not change the > immutable fact that it had been round previously. If " " bone density > requires calcium and vitamin D " might be revised some day if we find a > new substance that accomplishes the same goal " , it wouldn't change the > immutable FACT that bone is made secure and strong by vitamin D/calcium. > I notice the author didn't try to " water down " ('scuse the pun) the > composition of the body being mostly water. Another immutable fact that > we know that will not change by some act of science fiction. > > We have discovered a lot of immutable, inarguable truth about our planet > and solar system. (The sun is very hot by the way. That isn't debatable. > If it burns out in some future millennia it won't change the fact that > it was hot when science discovered the absolute truth that it was a ball > of fire.) Just because " some physicists are questioning the material > reality of our world and the permanency of physical laws " simply > indicates they are on the verge of losing touch with reality. I work at > a psychiatric hospital. Many of these patients, (sometimes people with > very high education end up in here) have lost touch with so much of the > truth that they have nothing to anchor their lives to. > > Truth is an anchor. We must discover as much of it as we can and cling > to it like the precious treasure that it is. The struggle is to admit > where we don't have it and to find more, not to admit that anything and > everything we know for sure might not really be " for sure " . Truth is a > strong dependent anchor. It holds when we CLING to it, like a boat being > tossed to and fro while anchored in a sea during a storm. Give up that > anchor that we have and off you go, to be whipped around by every wind > of philosophical wrangling. > > Feel free to doubt everything you think you know and see where it gets > you. I'll hang on to what we know we know and look for more to grasp. > I'll question what we don't know for sure and look for clarification or > correction. I like the truth and believe it is absolute. It's great when > we discover more of it. It makes me feel even more secure than I already > do. The more truth that I have, the more it gives me peace and guards my > mind. > > Dave > > Check Nutrition at: > Nutrition.teach-nology.com > Ortiz, RD > nrord@... > " Exercise is a dirty word... Every time I hear it, > I wash my mouth out with chocolate. " > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.3/423 - Release Date: 8/18/2006 > Quote
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2006 Report Posted August 24, 2006 Hey, thanks for the clarification. I agree with you 100% Our " minds have met " . ) Dave _____ From: rd-usa [mailto:rd-usa ] On Behalf Of Ortiz, R.D. Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2006 11:19 AM To: RD USA Subject: Fw: Debate " Pigs to Sing " > You completely misunderstood my point. I don't doubt that these things are > true. I think science is a reliable way to learn as much truth as possible > about how the world works. I very much DO hang on to what we know and I > try > to learn more. > > I was only trying to point out how imprecise language is and how it can > get > us into real trouble when we start saying something is " absolutely " true. > The statement " If you take a knife and cut your skin, blood will come out " > seems absolutely true. But if you depend on it to be absolutely true all > the > time, you may find that you are wrong. There ARE exceptions. I have done > bunion surgery on a patient where I cut the patient's skin with a knife > and > blood did not come out (due to pre-op preparation involving a tourniquet). > You would have to specify cutting the skin NOW, with no preparation, under > specified conditions of gravity, air pressure, temperature, etc. etc. and > you might still not think of all the possibilities. > > We can trust the things that have been tested, and we can trust the skin > to > bleed when cut (although we should be ready to admit that it may not do so > always or under all circumstances). What bothers me is when people trust > things that have not been tested, or things that have been tested and have > failed the tests. Some people who believe in absolute truth also believe > in > obtaining that truth by intuition or authority, without testing. Many > people > believe their religions offer absolute truth; but different religions > offer > different absolute truths. If you accept " truth " prematurely, without > adequate testing, you are only giving yourself a false sense of security. > That has been compared to anchoring oneself in a sea with no bottom. > > Critical thinkers follow these tenets of the scientific method: > (1) Test your hypotheses/beliefs - look at the evidence. > (2) Be willing to change your mind when the evidence warrants. > > The people at Mingling of the Minds and the little brother in the Tooth > Fairy fable wanted to believe without testing and wanted to ignore any > results of testing that didn't support their beliefs. They were secure. > They > felt they knew the absolute truth. They were wrong. _______________________________________________________ > > > Sorry, but I don't debate long with people who argue that we don't know > anything " for sure " . Here's one even my young son came up with, " If you > take a knife and cut your skin, blood will come out. " No need for > debate. Science won't prove that wrong. If in " some remote > science-fictionish future some advanced technology might be capable of > warping our planet surface into a flat form " that would not change the > immutable fact that it had been round previously. If " " bone density > requires calcium and vitamin D " might be revised some day if we find a > new substance that accomplishes the same goal " , it wouldn't change the > immutable FACT that bone is made secure and strong by vitamin D/calcium. > I notice the author didn't try to " water down " ('scuse the pun) the > composition of the body being mostly water. Another immutable fact that > we know that will not change by some act of science fiction. > > We have discovered a lot of immutable, inarguable truth about our planet > and solar system. (The sun is very hot by the way. That isn't debatable. > If it burns out in some future millennia it won't change the fact that > it was hot when science discovered the absolute truth that it was a ball > of fire.) Just because " some physicists are questioning the material > reality of our world and the permanency of physical laws " simply > indicates they are on the verge of losing touch with reality. I work at > a psychiatric hospital. Many of these patients, (sometimes people with > very high education end up in here) have lost touch with so much of the > truth that they have nothing to anchor their lives to. > > Truth is an anchor. We must discover as much of it as we can and cling > to it like the precious treasure that it is. The struggle is to admit > where we don't have it and to find more, not to admit that anything and > everything we know for sure might not really be " for sure " . Truth is a > strong dependent anchor. It holds when we CLING to it, like a boat being > tossed to and fro while anchored in a sea during a storm. Give up that > anchor that we have and off you go, to be whipped around by every wind > of philosophical wrangling. > > Feel free to doubt everything you think you know and see where it gets > you. I'll hang on to what we know we know and look for more to grasp. > I'll question what we don't know for sure and look for clarification or > correction. I like the truth and believe it is absolute. It's great when > we discover more of it. It makes me feel even more secure than I already > do. The more truth that I have, the more it gives me peace and guards my > mind. > > Dave > > Check Nutrition at: > Nutrition.teach-nology.com > Ortiz, RD > nrord@... <mailto:nrord%40adelphia.net> > " Exercise is a dirty word... Every time I hear it, > I wash my mouth out with chocolate. " > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.3/423 - Release Date: 8/18/2006 > Quote
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