Re: terminology friction LONG

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/6/2001 10:56:55 AM Eastern Standard Time,

vhunnius@... writes:

> That's different, " said Marc. " He's a freak! " This is a preferred

> adjective for Marc. When I gasped last night and clutched the sheet I was

> folding to my chest, he said, " Well, he's NOT normal. "

>

> " I know that, " I said, through gritted teeth. " But can't you choose

> something kinder? "

>

> " Like what, " he geered, " differently abled? "

>

> " What's wrong with AUTISTIC? "

>

> He had no answer for that.

>

> I tried to explain to him that when he uses words like 'freak' I feel like

> he feels is unpleasant or substandard.

>

> I don't think he got it.

>

> <sigh>

>

> Jacquie

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

Hmmmmm

Ron

[Guest guest]

WOW Jacquie, I can't belive he said that!

Ginger

=====

Ginger, wife to Jeff

14 ADD

9 Autistic

7 NT

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

I am bad. I have to say that I, like Mark, also call my

children " freaks " and wierdos and any other names like that. I dont

mean to be mean but thats just how Jeff and I are. Bugs my family to

no end. I tell them " I call them like I see them " But not that I

really thing this but the behaviour is awfully wierd most times.

Jacquie H

>

> ----- Original Message -----

>

> > Disclaimer 2: Marc does not have a way with words and has no

idea when he

> is giving offense. This is a problem that has plagued him his

entire life,

> although his not aware of it.

>

> Gee, and we suspected him of being Aspie?

>

> >

> > That said...

>

> Determined to be right, I said, " You wouldn't let do that. "

> >

> > " That's different, " said Marc. " He's a freak! " This is a

preferred

> adjective for Marc. When I gasped last night and clutched the

sheet I was

> folding to my chest, he said, " Well, he's NOT normal. "

>

> Yes, I don't think this is an appropriate word to describe our

children

> either. How would Mark feel if came home from school in tears

because

> the children were calling him that??

>

> >

> > " Like what, " he geered, " differently abled? "

> >

> > " What's wrong with AUTISTIC? "

>

> If Mark has trouble with the word autistic, why not say that is

> 'different' and leave it at that?

>

> >

> > I tried to explain to him that when he uses words like 'freak' I

feel like

> he feels is unpleasant or substandard.

>

> Since you know that Mark doesn't feel this way, try not to let it

affect

> you, but I would still try to get him to use different terminology.

> Didn't Mark have problems in school because of his size? Couldn't

you give

> him an example of how it would feel for by reminding him of

how some

> things felt to him?

>

> >

> > I don't think he got it.

>

> Not surprising, it is?

>

> Sue, mom to 2 'unique' boys!

>

>

> ----------------------------------------------------

> Sign Up for NetZero Platinum Today

> Only $9.95 per month!

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[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/6/01 8:24:25 AM Pacific Standard Time,

parenting_autism writes:

> " That's different, " said Marc. " He's a freak! " This is a preferred

> adjective for Marc. When I gasped last night and clutched the sheet I was

> folding to my chest, he said, " Well, he's NOT normal. "

>

> " I know that, " I said, through gritted teeth. " But can't you choose

> something kinder? "

>

> " Like what, " he geered, " differently abled? "

>

> " What's wrong with AUTISTIC? "

>

> He had no answer for that.

>

>

......... and they say autistics can't communicate, and are socially

retarded. Sounds like this person needs a crash course in

social grace, even if this was a private conversation.

I would have asked, " Did your parents allow you to talk like that? "

Barb

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

> Disclaimer 2: Marc does not have a way with words and has no idea when he

is giving offense. This is a problem that has plagued him his entire life,

although his not aware of it.

Gee, and we suspected him of being Aspie?

>

> That said...

Determined to be right, I said, " You wouldn't let do that. "

>

> " That's different, " said Marc. " He's a freak! " This is a preferred

adjective for Marc. When I gasped last night and clutched the sheet I was

folding to my chest, he said, " Well, he's NOT normal. "

Yes, I don't think this is an appropriate word to describe our children

either. How would Mark feel if came home from school in tears because

the children were calling him that??

>

> " Like what, " he geered, " differently abled? "

>

> " What's wrong with AUTISTIC? "

If Mark has trouble with the word autistic, why not say that is

'different' and leave it at that?

>

> I tried to explain to him that when he uses words like 'freak' I feel like

he feels is unpleasant or substandard.

Since you know that Mark doesn't feel this way, try not to let it affect

you, but I would still try to get him to use different terminology.

Didn't Mark have problems in school because of his size? Couldn't you give

him an example of how it would feel for by reminding him of how some

things felt to him?

>

> I don't think he got it.

Not surprising, it is?

Sue, mom to 2 'unique' boys!

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[Guest guest]

We do the same thing....but we also say this about our NT kids and each

other. What does that say about us!! I guess deep down, we're all freaks.

As long as it's not maliciously said, I do not have a problem with it.

Tamara, mom to Ebony-4 yrs, ASD & -7 months

>

>Reply-To: parenting_autism

>To: parenting_autism

>Subject: Re: terminology friction LONG

>Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 21:18:31 -0000

>

>I am bad. I have to say that I, like Mark, also call my

>children " freaks " and wierdos and any other names like that. I dont

>mean to be mean but thats just how Jeff and I are. Bugs my family to

>no end. I tell them " I call them like I see them " But not that I

>really thing this but the behaviour is awfully wierd most times.

> Jacquie H

>

>

>

> >

> > ----- Original Message -----

> >

> > > Disclaimer 2: Marc does not have a way with words and has no

>idea when he

> > is giving offense. This is a problem that has plagued him his

>entire life,

> > although his not aware of it.

> >

> > Gee, and we suspected him of being Aspie?

> >

> > >

> > > That said...

> >

> > Determined to be right, I said, " You wouldn't let do that. "

> > >

> > > " That's different, " said Marc. " He's a freak! " This is a

>preferred

> > adjective for Marc. When I gasped last night and clutched the

>sheet I was

> > folding to my chest, he said, " Well, he's NOT normal. "

> >

> > Yes, I don't think this is an appropriate word to describe our

>children

> > either. How would Mark feel if came home from school in tears

>because

> > the children were calling him that??

> >

> > >

> > > " Like what, " he geered, " differently abled? "

> > >

> > > " What's wrong with AUTISTIC? "

> >

> > If Mark has trouble with the word autistic, why not say that is

> > 'different' and leave it at that?

> >

> > >

> > > I tried to explain to him that when he uses words like 'freak' I

>feel like

> > he feels is unpleasant or substandard.

> >

> > Since you know that Mark doesn't feel this way, try not to let it

>affect

> > you, but I would still try to get him to use different terminology.

> > Didn't Mark have problems in school because of his size? Couldn't

>you give

> > him an example of how it would feel for by reminding him of

>how some

> > things felt to him?

> >

> > >

> > > I don't think he got it.

> >

> > Not surprising, it is?

> >

> > Sue, mom to 2 'unique' boys!

> >

> >

> > ----------------------------------------------------

> > Sign Up for NetZero Platinum Today

> > Only $9.95 per month!

> > http://my.netzero.net/s/signup?r=platinum & refcd=PT97

>

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[Guest guest]

> I am bad. I have to say that I, like Mark, also call my

> children " freaks " and wierdos and any other names like that. I dont

> mean to be mean but thats just how Jeff and I are. Bugs my family

to

> no end. I tell them " I call them like I see them " But not that I

> really thing this but the behaviour is awfully wierd most times.

> Jacquie H

That isn't the same thing to me.

I do sometimes say " Aislynn is strange " but she is! And I don't mean

it in a derogatory way. " Freak " is a derogatory word all the way

around. Weird is not, strange is not. Both words can mean just

different. Freak connotes an image that is ugly or scarey.

If a stranger called my kid a freak, I'd slug 'em.

If a friend did it, I would want to know why,

and then I'd slug 'em. LOL

Barb

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/7/01 5:37:49 AM Pacific Standard Time,

parenting_autism writes:

> " this person " is my husband.

>

>

>

>

Sorry, you just made him sound so distant

and uncaring. I didn't mean to injure.

Barb-ducking while tomatoes being thrown

[Guest guest]

> retarded. Sounds like this person needs a crash course in

> social grace, even if this was a private conversation.

" this person " is my husband.

[Guest guest]

The power of words, eh? For some, that word would be no big deal, but I

agree that I would hate it used in reference to Kep.

Amy H

Kepler 4 ASD and Bethany 6 NT

" There is so much good in the worst of us, and so much bad in the best of

us, that it behooves all of us not to talk about the rest of us. " ~

Louis son

_________________________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

Barb,

I guess I never thought of it that way. In fact my husband called

Greggory a freak last night and I never thought anything of it. I

guess its ok for us to say it between us but not people outside my

family. I am sure I would be upset if a friend said it to me.

Jacquie H

> > I am bad. I have to say that I, like Mark, also call my

> > children " freaks " and wierdos and any other names like that. I

dont

> > mean to be mean but thats just how Jeff and I are. Bugs my family

> to

> > no end. I tell them " I call them like I see them " But not that I

> > really thing this but the behaviour is awfully wierd most times.

> > Jacquie H

>

> That isn't the same thing to me.

> I do sometimes say " Aislynn is strange " but she is! And I don't

mean

> it in a derogatory way. " Freak " is a derogatory word all the way

> around. Weird is not, strange is not. Both words can mean just

> different. Freak connotes an image that is ugly or scarey.

>

> If a stranger called my kid a freak, I'd slug 'em.

> If a friend did it, I would want to know why,

> and then I'd slug 'em. LOL

> Barb

[Guest guest]

> > retarded. Sounds like this person needs a crash course in

> > social grace, even if this was a private conversation.

>

> " this person " is my husband.

I thought the same thing and then I thought " And so what is wrong with that

answer, husband or not? "

Of course, you know he loves which does make a difference.

Salli

[Guest guest]

> I thought the same thing and then I thought " And so what is wrong with that

> answer, husband or not? "

>

I am defensive and protective of him. Marc, that is. When it comes to verbal

cues and knowing what's appropriate or not, he is just as disabled as his son.

I'm not making light of that, btw. He honestly DOESN'T KNOW. Most of my family

and most of my friends were put off by him for years, always thinking that he

was aloof and sometimes cruel, when in fact he just doesn't comprehend the power

of his words on other people. So I get defensive when someone refers to

something he said and calls him " that person " - because I, on the other hand, am

VERY attuned to other people's words. And " that person " is a scornful phrase,

as is the question about whether his parents taught him manners like that -- do

We teach OUR spectrum kids to be ignorant of others' reactions to their words?

Nope. We accept them and nurture them. My husband has massive problems with

communication. I accept them and try to point him in a gentler direction that

he doesn't understand.

He just doesn't understand. He doesn't deserve to be scorned.

Jacquie

[Guest guest]

Jacquie,

I can understand what you mean about your husband not

understanding how his words impact others. Jeff doesnt either. Most

of my family can't stand it. I feel like I am constantly defending

him and I know he doesnt mean to hurt anyone he just doesnt get it.

It really bothers me when my family can be so hard and Jeff when they

know better and he does not!

Jacquie H

>

> > I thought the same thing and then I thought " And so what is wrong

with that

> > answer, husband or not? "

> >

>

> I am defensive and protective of him. Marc, that is. When it

comes to verbal cues and knowing what's appropriate or not, he is

just as disabled as his son. I'm not making light of that, btw. He

honestly DOESN'T KNOW. Most of my family and most of my friends were

put off by him for years, always thinking that he was aloof and

sometimes cruel, when in fact he just doesn't comprehend the power of

his words on other people. So I get defensive when someone refers to

something he said and calls him " that person " - because I, on the

other hand, am VERY attuned to other people's words. And " that

person " is a scornful phrase, as is the question about whether his

parents taught him manners like that -- do We teach OUR spectrum kids

to be ignorant of others' reactions to their words? Nope. We accept

them and nurture them. My husband has massive problems with

communication. I accept them and try to point him in a gentler

direction that he doesn't understand.

>

> He just doesn't understand. He doesn't deserve to be scorned.

>

> Jacquie

[Guest guest]

> Sorry, you just made him sound so distant

> and uncaring. I didn't mean to injure.

> Barb-ducking while tomatoes being thrown

No, I didn't make him sound that way -- he just does sound that way. That's why

I put the disclaimers up top on that post about how much he loves and how

he is certainly undiagnosed ASD - to mitigate how awful he can sound.

The reason I KNOW he's not as he sounds is that he and I have done a lot of

research on adult Asperger's --and even HE knows that sounds like himself. We

don't have the money to have him diagnosed, but we both know that explains a lot

about himself and his life.

Some evidence:

-his utter lack of understanding concerning verbal communication - tones of

voice, choice of wrods, etc

-his lack of receptive communication - does not recognize tones of voice, not

able to tell he has hurt or offended or if a game has gone too far unless he is

specifically told, ie: " Marc, I feel angry. This is why. "

-eye contact?

-perseveration on topics entirely stupifyingly boring to everyone around him,

like the intricacies of the machine he fixed at work today, how it works, what

parts it has, what he did to it...(we're talking 45 minute discussions)

-explain a rule to him. that is the rule FOREVER. there is no interpreting it,

no adaptation - it is the RULE. a handy example: when a child, the rule was

you don't wear wet clothes. so at the beach, he'd go in the water once, and

then take off his bathing suit - because it was wet. period.

-when entering high school, the board wanted him placed in remedial classes.

his mother fought it. he went into general, then advanced, then honours...he's

startlingly intelligent, but socially inept, even socially impaired.

-although he is funny and friendly, and people gravitate to him, he does not

make friends. His two best and only friends are people he sees about once a

month, who don't go out of their way to contact him but rather just leave him

alone most of the time. I don't get it, but he's very happy with this

arrangement. he can't fathom my need for people. The only reason we're

together is because I just kept pursuing him. When we were broken up for a

year, he didn't date one other person.

-he is incredibly good-looking. stunning. women hit on him all the time. He

doesn't notice; he doesn't even realize it happens. He doesn't question

anyone's motive for anything, ever.

-he fiercely loves the people he's bonded to, and completely apathetic about

anyone else.

-he can do mathematic equations in his head that make my cry in frustration, yet

cannot remember someone's telephone number or where the potato chips are in the

kitchen.

-he can tell you any geographical trivia about any country in the world - but

rarely desires to leave the house.

[Guest guest]

> Jacquie, would Marc say this in public also? Would he ever refer to as

> " freak " amongst close friends,

Yup, he would.

>

> said - he loves to pieces. I am certain that his definition of " freak "

> meant just different from the norm, but I can imagine that it's hard to

> hear.

" Freak " is also the term he uses to describe himself. Not only for his own

personality quirks, but also for his singular appearance -- as I've said before,

he is 6'7 " and 300lbs. At his grade eight graduation he was taller than his

male teacher by a foot. He has always referred to himself, matter-of-factly, as

a freak.

To him, it is less derogatory than factual.

Jacqyue

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/7/01 11:28:00 AM Pacific Standard Time,

parenting_autism writes:

> The reason I KNOW he's not as he sounds is that he and I have done a lot of

> research on adult Asperger's --and even HE knows that sounds like himself.

>

I am new around here, sometimes I may not have all the facts.

Plus the fact that I am on digest, so I don't read all of the posts.

I didn't know he was your husband, that is why I

used the phrase that didn't agree with you.

I did not know he was thought to be autistic.

When you posted what he said, to me it looked like

you were outraged and looking for some answers.

Perhaps you weren't. My mistake.

As I said before, I had no intention of bashing or

making anyone out to be a bad person, I was

speaking out against the use of the word freak

in regard to our autistic children.

I still would punch anyone that called my daughter

a freak, husband or not. To me, that word is

derogatory and is not allowed, (like the word

stupid) in this house.

You have your own rules in your home.

Misunderstandings are frequent when all

communication is in the form of print.

Barb

[Guest guest]

>

> He just doesn't understand. He doesn't deserve to be scorned.

>

Sorry, Jacquie. But where do you quit understanding? I mean, when does

someone no one longer deserve consideration for an inborn communication

problem. I don't really say this about Marc, who doesn't sound as if he

deserves scorn at all. I am not bothered by the kinds of things he said

anyway, because I always try to consider the intent of the speaker.

But my husband really truly honestly doesn't understand either. No kidding.

I don't believe he is lying; I think he honestly doesn't get that he

mistreated me in any way. I think he honestly believes that he was the one

mistreated in our marriage and I don't think he can help it in many ways.

So perhaps he doesn't deserve scorn? Perhaps no one really does?

I spent thirteen years loving and accepting and nuturing my husband. I did

not condone his violent outbursts but in a way I knew he wasn't capable of

doing much more than he did. He never noticed that I treated him far better

than most wives treat most husbands. I spoke politely always, I thanked him

for everything and regularly tried to boost his ego. I made him and him

alone special treats and special meals and told the kids not to eat things

that I made for him (and he would say, " So can I have some of this or is it

just for the children " which amazed all of us because he was the only one

who had such special treatment and HE NEVER KNEW IT!)

He misunderstood a great deal of what I said to him so that I learned to

speak very carefully. He remembered that all the presents I ever gave him

had been really intended for the children and didn't really back down when I

listed ten years of birthday and Christmas presents all of them clearly

intended for him and him alone.

I always believed that he could not help this and if he had never used any

violence on me whatsoever, then I would be writing the same things you say.

Because that is how I was for him.

But as it is I feel betrayed and angry so it is difficult for me to be as

empathetic as I might otherwise. And I am sorry if I sounded harsh about

Marc, I truly didn't mean too. Actually my first reaction was amusement

because I could see that _____ did not realize that this was your husband we

were talking about. And then I thought, well, if we are angry about

strangers saying these things, which they say out of ignorance, really total

ignorance sometimes, then perhaps we should either be more generous to

strangers and school officials (oh, no, I didn't say THAT!)? Or are we only

generous to family members who may be somewhere on the spectrum? But we

don't know any more about the strangers who irritate us than they know about

us? Perhaps they are also on the spectrum? So is it fair to judge them in

any way?

One of the things we will have to face with our children, sooner or later,

and I dread this one, is that if they go out into the world, the world will

give them very few excuses and cut them very little slack. As we know, the

schools already cut them too little slack. But of course our kids are young

and still learning and the schools rarely understand our kids. There is a

point at which, surely, if our kids are to be a success, they must be held

accountable to the same rules as everyone else. Not perhaps within their

own families where odd quirks are accepted and where everyone operates under

different rules, but out in the real world where your boss doesn't give a

hoot about anything except how you perform your job.

But I know you know all this, Jacquie, and that it worries you too. And I

must say that when Enrique and Putter grow up that, if they marry, I would

want them to marry someone like you, who will accept and nurture them.

Always assuming that Enrique can get the violence out of his system because

THAT I think is where you have to draw the line between accepting someone's

problems with people and saying, " This is too much. You may have problems

but you can't hurt other people. It's just no excuse. "

I was a good AS wife too. But he never understood that there were certain

lines you could not cross. Obviously he is just a more hopeless case than

Marc.

But sorry if you felt that Marc was being scorned.

Salli

[Guest guest]

--- bunnytiner wrote:

> >

> >>

> One of the things we will have to face with our

> children, sooner or later, and I dread this one, is

that if they go out into the world, the world will

> give them very few excuses and cut them very little

> slack. but out in the real world where your boss

doesn't give a hoot about anything except how you

perform your job.

Salli

Salli,

This is one of the points that my DH reminds me of so

often. The world will not make things easy for our

kids once they are out in it. Dh insists that at

school, or any where for that matter, that be

held to the same standards as NT kids because of this

fact. If the rest of the class has spelling home work

then better have it too. It may have to be

modified, but we expect him to have assignments like

everyone else. I am afraid that the world will not be

so kind to our children.

=====

Ginger, wife to Jeff

14 ADD

9 Autistic

7 NT

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

I've been thinking about his topic all day at work, (yes, I even think of the

list while repairing houses...it keeps the monotny out of my life) and

realized this.

Autistic kids are not freaks...they have peculiar habits...maybe even

outright weird behavior sometimes...but they aren't freaks.

is a f$(*ing freak...

So, unless anyone's kids are looking like Jacskson theses

days...dancing backwards while grabbing their groins...I wouldn't sweat it.

Just my 2 cents

Ron

[Guest guest]

> Jacqyue <

just wanted to say hi

" Isn't it wonderful how each of us on this earth was created just a little bit

different? " - Linus

" I gave up trying to understand people long ago. Now I just let them try to

understand me. " - Snoopy

[Guest guest]

AGHHHHHHHHHHH! I am a terrible typer. especially on this bitty key

board.LOL

Jacquie H

> > Jacqyue <

>

> just wanted to say hi

>

>

> " Isn't it wonderful how each of us on this earth was created just a

little bit different? " - Linus

>

> " I gave up trying to understand people long ago. Now I just let

them try to understand me. " - Snoopy

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> I was a good AS wife too. But he never understood that there were certain

> lines you could not cross. Obviously he is just a more hopeless case than

> Marc.

I agree with pretty much every word in that post, Salli!

As to the question - where do you quit understanding...I believe as you do, that

once violence and blame enters the picture, your only duty is to yourself and

your children. The line has been crossed.

Quirky, strange, and needing special care and acceptance is one thing. Angry,

abusive, and blaming turns it into something else entirely.

Unlike Lou, Marc DOES realize his problems. He KNOWS he's not exactly in tune

with things, and will listen to suggestions on how to better deal with me and

with . He's not always successful at carrying them out, but does try. He

recognizes that he needs to try, for the sake of his family, although he feels

no intrinsic need to do so for himself.

Like you, the day he laid a hand on me would be the day I walked out and never

looked back.

Jacquie

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/7/2001 11:23:06 AM Eastern Standard Time,

vhunnius@... writes:

> I am defensive and protective of him. Marc, that is. When it comes to

> verbal cues and knowing what's appropriate or not, he is just as disabled

> as his son. I'm not making light of that, btw. He honestly DOESN'T KNOW.

> Most of my family and most of my friends were put off by him for years,

> always thinking that he was aloof and sometimes cruel, when in fact he just

> doesn't comprehend the power of his words on other people. So I get

> defensive when someone refers to something he said and calls him " that

> person " - because I, on the other hand, am VERY attuned to other people's

> words. And " that person " is a scornful phrase, as is the question about

> whether his parents taught him manners like that -- do We teach OUR

> spectrum kids to be ignorant of others' reactions to their words? Nope.

> We accept them and nurture them. My husband has massive problems with

> communication. I accept them and try to point him in a gentler direction

> that he doesn't understand.

>

> He just doesn't understand. He doesn't deserve to be scorned.

>

> Jacquie

>

>

>

Jacquie...I applaud your loyalty...This world needs more loyalty between

spouses IMHO....

With this said...and I'm not making light here...how did he survive on a ship?

Ron...who's logged a few nautical miles also

[Guest guest]

> different rules, but out in the real world where your boss doesn't give a

> hoot about anything except how you perform your job.

Personally, I think that this will work FOR them, assuming they find jobs suited

to their skills. IMHO, I think they will be extrememly proficient at jobs

that suit them, without indulging in all the sidetracks, wandering attention,

and gossiping we NTs can be prone to...

>

> But I know you know all this, Jacquie, and that it worries you too. And I

> must say that when Enrique and Putter grow up that, if they marry, I would

> want them to marry someone like you, who will accept and nurture them.

We ARE out there. Unfortunately, I don't think there's a way to identify us

from the outside. What drew me to Marc and kept drawing me back was how much he

DIDN'T want to crawl into my skin and get into my head and " own " me -- I was

attracted to the fact that he was perfectly content for me to be my own person,

he had no ideas of what a girl should or should not be. What I was, was what I

was. They need girls who don't want a symbiotic relationship. Boys who wanted

to be my whole life, gave me flowers and crap, pledged undying love...they felt

like a NOOSE. Marc and I, on the other hand, developed an adult version of

'parallel play' which has served us well!

But again -- the day he stops TRYING is the day I'm outta here..

Jacquie