Re: new, don't know if this makes sense :(

[Guest guest]

Janie,

Welcome to the group. As you have read so many posts, you know by now that

this is a safe place to express yourself.

We all have needs and one way or another, we will find ways to meet them, as

you have with your affairs. What your husband is doing clearly isn't satisfying

to you, and as you said, " he doesn't talk about his emotions. " What struck me

was that you went an entire year without having sex w/ him to see when he would

initiate it. Did you approach him and discuss that you want to have sex? That

you have x, y and z needs from this marriage? How could you both work together

to get both your needs met? It seems from your post that he is not the only one

that is communicating on many levels. You deserve love and the full spectrum of

attention. We all do. And when we don't get what we need, it is our

responsibility to communicate this to our partner and work together to discover

why and how to procede from there.

Most of these communication skills are tools that I, and most others, had to

learn in therapy, since we weren't taught them from our parents. From the FOO

issue you raised, it does appear that some therapy might help to gain new

insights and heal some old wounds.

I'm sure glad that you joined the group and shared. It takes a great deal of

courage to do so.

All my best and take great care,

Greg.

j_psmythe wrote:

Hi,

I don't know where else to turn. I'm 34 y/o daughter of a

waif/hermit/witch nada and NPD father and stepfather. After some

reading on the boards, I can relate to _alot_! You don't need to hear

my FOO stories, it's the same as all of yours. I've had no contact

with them for a couple of years. I thought I was doing okay in my

life. I've been married 12 years to a nice man, we have two great kids.

I love my dh, he's a good person. When me married, my main reason for

picking a mate was someone who (oposite of FOO) was not dramatic and

not abusive. And he is very undramatic and kind. When I hear stories

from my gf's about their husbands, mine is very helpful and easy to

get along with, compared to theirs.

Yeah so what's the problem? All along, something has " felt wrong " im

my marriage. I don't know if it's something from my upbringing? But I

never feel loved, on an emotionally deep level. He'll say " I love you "

once in a while, but (maybe like a lot of guys?) there is never any

discussion of feelings. He is kind and agreeable, but also seems

emotionally absent. He seems to have no emotional life at all, even

after 12 years marriage. Does this make any sense to anyone? If it

made sense to anyone, I thought maybe other KOs can help with this.

I've felt, almost from the start of the marriage that I'm living more

with a detached roommate, not a partner. And he is not very sexual.

And I am. Months could go by, without him initiating. One time I

decided just to wait until he initiated it, and I waited a year. I

felt so unloved and humiliated. I had only been with a few other men

before marriage, but my other bf's " couldn't get enough " if you know

what I mean. So I've felt very sad and humiliated and rejected about

the sex issues. I've even asked myself, god is he gay, but I don't

think so. There is no one else, I'm really sure. He's like

emotionless. Agreeable but totally detached. wtf

So he's a nice guy who is emotionally distant and asexual. I've felt

so unloved. Just like I felt in my FOO. How could I have tried hard to

choose a guy who would be the opposite of FOO (and is opposite in many

ways), and still get the same result, to feel so unloved and alone in

life? Did I do this to myself? I think I did, somehow.

I don't believe in divorce for myself--no judgment on those who do

divorce, its not for me though, and theres nothing bad enough to

justify a divorce anyway. The kids would be devastated. Everyone's

happy but me.

So then, if anyone is still reading this long message, I went and made

things worse. Three years ago I fell into this internet affair. I

wasn't looking for it. There was just this guy I happened to meet

online who was so funny and attentive and always seemed happy to see

me and interested in what I had to say. That's all I seem to want,

someone who is happy to see me and interested in me. Cuz at home I

feel like a piece of furnitire.

Okay, so that guy (Internet #1) turned out to be a raging NPD, just

like dad and stepdad. After about three months of bliss, it was almost

three years of hell, with me knowing I had to get away from him, but I

was hooked in. This was a very emotionally abusive relationship. At

times he " loved me " or " hated me " . I lived for the times when he loved

me. I finally got away from him when he dumped me. I wish I could say

I found the strength to leave, but no, the only thing that saved me

from him, was him dumping me.

I was devastated, and this was on top of my same problems with my home

life. Those problems didn't go away, they're still right there. I

thought I learned my lesson about Internet relationships, then a few

months ago I fell into Internet relationship #2. Again not looking for

it. Internet #2 is an improvement over Internet #1, if you can say

that having an online affair to meet your emotional needs is ever an

" improvement " .

He's more a sweet, codependent type, kinda like me. He's a split-good

KO living at home as an adult, still very much under nadas control, in

therapy, really trying to understand his past and move beyond it. God

I hope he's not on this list. We have this emotionally close, caring

relationship, cuz we lived thorugh a lot of the same things.

Personality-wise we're similar, have a lot of the same interests and

all. We're happy to see each other, we're kind to each other. The

problem is, I think this is not healthy for either of us.

Oh, then my husband found out about Internet #2 and he was very sad

and upset. Of course. I told him I would end it, and I intended to. I

told Internet #2 I was ending it, and I intended to. But after about a

month, I felt like I was dying inside and I missed Internet#2 so much.

I went back to visiting with him every day. I'm so ashamed of this. I

just think I'm doing things that are unhealthy for everyone, bad for

everyone, including myself. I sat up half the night with Internet#2

last night, and I almost feel like this relationship is like a drug

that is numbing my pain from my daily life. A bandage over gangrene.

I also care about Internet #2 and would like to see him in a nice

healthier relationship, not stuck in and focussed on a dead-end

relationship with me, you know? And I feel so sad and sorry for

causing pain to my husband, too. I feel like a bad person for going

back on my intentions and sneaking (again) with Internet#2 after I

said I would stop.

Thanks for reading.

Janie

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Wow, Janie, that's some story!

It DOES sound like a lot of drama, and it's interesting to wonder to what extent

being a KO comes into play with all that...

I was married for 17 years to a man who was a lot like my foo -- very

emotionally abusive and a real drama queen, although not a BP. (I wouldn't make

the same choice now, but I was very young when I got married.) I have a young

son, so I can really relate to your not wanting to put your kids through the

trauma of a divorce -- although we don't do them any favors by keeping them in

an unhappy situation, either.

It sounds like, for you, it's a matter of making a choice. If you want to stay

married, I say end the affair immediately and get some marriage counselling to

try to improve your communication and other problems (lack of sex is usually a

symptom of other problems). If you truly do want to stay married, you owe it

to yourself -- and everyone involved -- to do everything possible to try to work

it out with all the emotional integrity you can.

You might also want to consider some therapy just for yourself as well! It

sounds like you're in a lot of pain and maybe you're right that you're using

these affairs to escape from something that goes deeper. I know, as a KO, I've

been through some pretty low times and there's a lot of work to be done for all

of us in recovering from so much childhood abuse.

Anyhow, that's my take, for what it's worth! And welcome to the group.

Shana

Re: new, don't know if this makes sense

To: WTOAdultChildren1

> Janie,

>

> Welcome to the group. As you have read so many posts, you

> know by now that this is a safe place to express yourself.

>

> We all have needs and one way or another, we will find ways to

> meet them, as you have with your affairs. What your husband is

> doing clearly isn't satisfying to you, and as you said, " he

> doesn't talk about his emotions. " What struck me was that you

> went an entire year without having sex w/ him to see when he

> would initiate it. Did you approach him and discuss that you

> want to have sex? That you have x, y and z needs from this

> marriage? How could you both work together to get both your

> needs met? It seems from your post that he is not the only one

> that is communicating on many levels. You deserve love and the

> full spectrum of attention. We all do. And when we don't get

> what we need, it is our responsibility to communicate this to

> our partner and work together to discover why and how to procede

> from there.

>

> Most of these communication skills are tools that I, and most

> others, had to learn in therapy, since we weren't taught them

> from our parents. From the FOO issue you raised, it does appear

> that some therapy might help to gain new insights and heal some

> old wounds.

>

> I'm sure glad that you joined the group and shared. It takes

> a great deal of courage to do so.

>

> All my best and take great care,

>

>

> Greg.

> j_psmythe wrote:

> Hi,

> I don't know where else to turn. I'm 34 y/o daughter of a

> waif/hermit/witch nada and NPD father and stepfather. After some

> reading on the boards, I can relate to _alot_! You don't need to hear

> my FOO stories, it's the same as all of yours. I've had no contact

> with them for a couple of years. I thought I was doing okay in my

> life. I've been married 12 years to a nice man, we have two

> great kids.

>

> I love my dh, he's a good person. When me married, my main

> reason for

> picking a mate was someone who (oposite of FOO) was not dramatic and

> not abusive. And he is very undramatic and kind. When I hear stories

> from my gf's about their husbands, mine is very helpful and easy to

> get along with, compared to theirs.

>

> Yeah so what's the problem? All along, something has " felt

> wrong " im

> my marriage. I don't know if it's something from my upbringing?

> But I

> never feel loved, on an emotionally deep level. He'll say " I

> love you "

> once in a while, but (maybe like a lot of guys?) there is never any

> discussion of feelings. He is kind and agreeable, but also seems

> emotionally absent. He seems to have no emotional life at all, even

> after 12 years marriage. Does this make any sense to anyone? If it

> made sense to anyone, I thought maybe other KOs can help with this.

>

> I've felt, almost from the start of the marriage that I'm living more

> with a detached roommate, not a partner. And he is not very sexual.

> And I am. Months could go by, without him initiating. One time I

> decided just to wait until he initiated it, and I waited a year. I

> felt so unloved and humiliated. I had only been with a few other men

> before marriage, but my other bf's " couldn't get enough " if you know

> what I mean. So I've felt very sad and humiliated and rejected about

> the sex issues. I've even asked myself, god is he gay, but I don't

> think so. There is no one else, I'm really sure. He's like

> emotionless. Agreeable but totally detached. wtf

>

> So he's a nice guy who is emotionally distant and asexual. I've felt

> so unloved. Just like I felt in my FOO. How could I have tried

> hard to

> choose a guy who would be the opposite of FOO (and is opposite

> in many

> ways), and still get the same result, to feel so unloved and

> alone in

> life? Did I do this to myself? I think I did, somehow.

>

> I don't believe in divorce for myself--no judgment on those who do

> divorce, its not for me though, and theres nothing bad enough to

> justify a divorce anyway. The kids would be devastated. Everyone's

> happy but me.

>

> So then, if anyone is still reading this long message, I went

> and made

> things worse. Three years ago I fell into this internet affair. I

> wasn't looking for it. There was just this guy I happened to meet

> online who was so funny and attentive and always seemed happy to see

> me and interested in what I had to say. That's all I seem to want,

> someone who is happy to see me and interested in me. Cuz at home I

> feel like a piece of furnitire.

>

> Okay, so that guy (Internet #1) turned out to be a raging NPD, just

> like dad and stepdad. After about three months of bliss, it was almost

> three years of hell, with me knowing I had to get away from him,

> but I

> was hooked in. This was a very emotionally abusive relationship. At

> times he " loved me " or " hated me " . I lived for the times when he loved

> me. I finally got away from him when he dumped me. I wish I

> could say

> I found the strength to leave, but no, the only thing that saved me

> from him, was him dumping me.

>

> I was devastated, and this was on top of my same problems with

> my home

> life. Those problems didn't go away, they're still right there. I

> thought I learned my lesson about Internet relationships, then a few

> months ago I fell into Internet relationship #2. Again not

> looking for

> it. Internet #2 is an improvement over Internet #1, if you can say

> that having an online affair to meet your emotional needs is

> ever an

> " improvement " .

>

> He's more a sweet, codependent type, kinda like me. He's a split-good

> KO living at home as an adult, still very much under nadas

> control, in

> therapy, really trying to understand his past and move beyond

> it. God

> I hope he's not on this list. We have this emotionally close, caring

> relationship, cuz we lived thorugh a lot of the same things.

> Personality-wise we're similar, have a lot of the same interests and

> all. We're happy to see each other, we're kind to each other. The

> problem is, I think this is not healthy for either of us.

>

> Oh, then my husband found out about Internet #2 and he was very sad

> and upset. Of course. I told him I would end it, and I intended

> to. I

> told Internet #2 I was ending it, and I intended to. But after

> about a

> month, I felt like I was dying inside and I missed Internet#2 so much.

> I went back to visiting with him every day. I'm so ashamed of

> this. I

> just think I'm doing things that are unhealthy for everyone, bad for

> everyone, including myself. I sat up half the night with Internet#2

> last night, and I almost feel like this relationship is like a drug

> that is numbing my pain from my daily life. A bandage over gangrene.

>

> I also care about Internet #2 and would like to see him in a nice

> healthier relationship, not stuck in and focussed on a dead-end

> relationship with me, you know? And I feel so sad and sorry for

> causing pain to my husband, too. I feel like a bad person for going

> back on my intentions and sneaking (again) with Internet#2 after I

> said I would stop.

>

> Thanks for reading.

> Janie

>

>

>

>

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

Janie, in my own personal experience, being a KO has meant having to

spend CONSIDERABLE energy revising what my expectations are and should

be in a relationship--and for that matter, what my behavior and my

partner's behavior can and should be. I've spent years away from the

foo, tried different relationships, spent time reflecting on myself

and in therapy etc. I still screw things up sometimes nonetheless.

Your husband sounds a lot like my first very serious boyfriend (we

lived together for 4 years in all). He was kind and

undramatic--extremely undramatic, actually my friends disliked him

because they said he was boring! I think I was attracted to him

because of how opposite he seemed from my foo. Looking back now, I

think he had some problems of his own, but he was a breath of fresh

air for me at the time! I think if we had gotten married, we would

have needed to go to some serious couples therapy. My needs were not

being met even though he was a basically kind person who cared about

me--there was definitely something wrong.

Incedentally, before I dated this guy, my two other semi-serious

boyfriends were 1. gay 2. in a relationship already. I dated the gay

one even AFTER he told me he was gay(or leaning that way) and I knew

about the other boyfriend's relationship--I didn't care, I had all the

relationship I wanted. Looking back, I think there was a part of me

that just felt more secure in a relationship that had some degree of

separation and distance in it. But, of course, you can't get your

emotional/physical needs met AND have a detached unavailable

relationship---you have to learn to make the leap.

It sounds like you have real needs that are not being met as well and

possibly like you have a thing for unavailable men--your husband is

somewhat unavailable on certain levels and the internet guys are

definitely unavailable. Being a KO, there's every chance that you

could have some unresolved issues that could be addressed in

therapy--I found that very useful.

You never mentioned if you'd talked to your husband about the way you

feel. I think it would be a very good idea! And your husband may

have some issues of his own that need to be resolved. For example, a

couple of years ago when I was under extreme stress after a move and a

career change and dealing with the foo, I could have easily gone a

year without initiating sex! And it was totally unrelated to my poor

husband. But I could really see the toll my problems were having on

our relationship and that got me into therapy.

So. . .yes, I've definitely a long, winding road in my relationships

and I strongly recommend therapy as a way of getting a handle on it.

Trish

>

> Hi,

> I don't know where else to turn. I'm 34 y/o daughter of a

> waif/hermit/witch nada and NPD father and stepfather. After some

> reading on the boards, I can relate to _alot_! You don't need to hear

> my FOO stories, it's the same as all of yours. I've had no contact

> with them for a couple of years. I thought I was doing okay in my

> life. I've been married 12 years to a nice man, we have two great kids.

>

> I love my dh, he's a good person. When me married, my main reason for

> picking a mate was someone who (oposite of FOO) was not dramatic and

> not abusive. And he is very undramatic and kind. When I hear stories

> from my gf's about their husbands, mine is very helpful and easy to

> get along with, compared to theirs.

>

> Yeah so what's the problem? All along, something has " felt wrong " im

> my marriage. I don't know if it's something from my upbringing? But I

> never feel loved, on an emotionally deep level. He'll say " I love you "

> once in a while, but (maybe like a lot of guys?) there is never any

> discussion of feelings. He is kind and agreeable, but also seems

> emotionally absent. He seems to have no emotional life at all, even

> after 12 years marriage. Does this make any sense to anyone? If it

> made sense to anyone, I thought maybe other KOs can help with this.

>

> I've felt, almost from the start of the marriage that I'm living more

> with a detached roommate, not a partner. And he is not very sexual.

> And I am. Months could go by, without him initiating. One time I

> decided just to wait until he initiated it, and I waited a year. I

> felt so unloved and humiliated. I had only been with a few other men

> before marriage, but my other bf's " couldn't get enough " if you know

> what I mean. So I've felt very sad and humiliated and rejected about

> the sex issues. I've even asked myself, god is he gay, but I don't

> think so. There is no one else, I'm really sure. He's like

> emotionless. Agreeable but totally detached. wtf

>

> So he's a nice guy who is emotionally distant and asexual. I've felt

> so unloved. Just like I felt in my FOO. How could I have tried hard to

> choose a guy who would be the opposite of FOO (and is opposite in many

> ways), and still get the same result, to feel so unloved and alone in

> life? Did I do this to myself? I think I did, somehow.

>

> I don't believe in divorce for myself--no judgment on those who do

> divorce, its not for me though, and theres nothing bad enough to

> justify a divorce anyway. The kids would be devastated. Everyone's

> happy but me.

>

> So then, if anyone is still reading this long message, I went and made

> things worse. Three years ago I fell into this internet affair. I

> wasn't looking for it. There was just this guy I happened to meet

> online who was so funny and attentive and always seemed happy to see

> me and interested in what I had to say. That's all I seem to want,

> someone who is happy to see me and interested in me. Cuz at home I

> feel like a piece of furnitire.

>

> Okay, so that guy (Internet #1) turned out to be a raging NPD, just

> like dad and stepdad. After about three months of bliss, it was almost

> three years of hell, with me knowing I had to get away from him, but I

> was hooked in. This was a very emotionally abusive relationship. At

> times he " loved me " or " hated me " . I lived for the times when he loved

> me. I finally got away from him when he dumped me. I wish I could say

> I found the strength to leave, but no, the only thing that saved me

> from him, was him dumping me.

>

> I was devastated, and this was on top of my same problems with my home

> life. Those problems didn't go away, they're still right there. I

> thought I learned my lesson about Internet relationships, then a few

> months ago I fell into Internet relationship #2. Again not looking for

> it. Internet #2 is an improvement over Internet #1, if you can say

> that having an online affair to meet your emotional needs is ever an

> " improvement " .

>

> He's more a sweet, codependent type, kinda like me. He's a split-good

> KO living at home as an adult, still very much under nadas control, in

> therapy, really trying to understand his past and move beyond it. God

> I hope he's not on this list. We have this emotionally close, caring

> relationship, cuz we lived thorugh a lot of the same things.

> Personality-wise we're similar, have a lot of the same interests and

> all. We're happy to see each other, we're kind to each other. The

> problem is, I think this is not healthy for either of us.

>

> Oh, then my husband found out about Internet #2 and he was very sad

> and upset. Of course. I told him I would end it, and I intended to. I

> told Internet #2 I was ending it, and I intended to. But after about a

> month, I felt like I was dying inside and I missed Internet#2 so much.

> I went back to visiting with him every day. I'm so ashamed of this. I

> just think I'm doing things that are unhealthy for everyone, bad for

> everyone, including myself. I sat up half the night with Internet#2

> last night, and I almost feel like this relationship is like a drug

> that is numbing my pain from my daily life. A bandage over gangrene.

>

> I also care about Internet #2 and would like to see him in a nice

> healthier relationship, not stuck in and focussed on a dead-end

> relationship with me, you know? And I feel so sad and sorry for

> causing pain to my husband, too. I feel like a bad person for going

> back on my intentions and sneaking (again) with Internet#2 after I

> said I would stop.

>

> Thanks for reading.

> Janie

>

[Guest guest]

Hi there,

Is it possible you went from one extreme to the other, from an

emotionally insane environment to one that is barren and dead? I

could see how that would be appealing after living with nada because

I have done it myself. A low key, quiet, gentle person comes along

and it's like, this seems nice. But long term it can be hard to

handle. I had a bf like that once, he had NOTHING to give, no

response, reactions, nothing. I know he cared for me deeply but was

so closed off that it felt like he was just a body present. No

emotional intimacy or engaging converstaions. It was like the lights

were on but no one was home. SO boring and unfulfilling.

After 3 or 4 years I gave up. I had begun to resent feeling guilty

for resenting him, if you know what I mean. They say you can't draw

blood from a turnip, I know with my ex bf he wouldn't have went to

therapy anyway, but to me it seemed the well was dry, he just didn't

have anything to give, or at least access to it. Either way, I

wasn't getting it.

But at least the sex was good. That sounds so awful, going a year

without sex, like roommates or something. I had another bf that I

was with for several years who enjoyed sex but wasn't affectionate

and I am. I was used to bf's hugging me and so forth but he didn't

like to touch or be touched outside of sex and I remember right

before we broke up I was dancing with a guy in a club and he walked

me back to the table and came up behind me and put his arms around

me. I remember thinking, OMG, it has been so long since a man has

done this, not only had I forgotten what it felt like, but I had

forgotten how much I love it!

I am grateful to that man because he was playful and affectionate

and helped me to remember what I was missing and what I wanted and

needed. I broke it off soon after that and what I found so

surprising is that I wasn't that upset like I usually was when a

relationship ended and my friends kept saying it will be all right,

etc and it dawned on me 'we didn't share very much, we didn't have a

deep connection, there simply isn't that much to mourn.'

Well, I hope this isn't making you feel worse, normally I would tell

someone there is always a way out, but with your comment about

divorce I don't know. Perhaps you will change your mind on that one

if things don't improve, I dunno.

Take care,

>

> Hi,

> I don't know where else to turn. I'm 34 y/o daughter of a

> waif/hermit/witch nada and NPD father and stepfather. After some

> reading on the boards, I can relate to _alot_! You don't need to

hear

> my FOO stories, it's the same as all of yours. I've had no contact

> with them for a couple of years. I thought I was doing okay in my

> life. I've been married 12 years to a nice man, we have two great

kids.

>

> I love my dh, he's a good person. When me married, my main reason

for

> picking a mate was someone who (oposite of FOO) was not dramatic

and

> not abusive. And he is very undramatic and kind. When I hear

stories

> from my gf's about their husbands, mine is very helpful and easy to

> get along with, compared to theirs.

>

> Yeah so what's the problem? All along, something has " felt wrong "

im

> my marriage. I don't know if it's something from my upbringing?

But I

> never feel loved, on an emotionally deep level. He'll say " I love

you "

> once in a while, but (maybe like a lot of guys?) there is never any

> discussion of feelings. He is kind and agreeable, but also seems

> emotionally absent. He seems to have no emotional life at all, even

> after 12 years marriage. Does this make any sense to anyone? If it

> made sense to anyone, I thought maybe other KOs can help with this.

>

> I've felt, almost from the start of the marriage that I'm living

more

> with a detached roommate, not a partner. And he is not very sexual.

> And I am. Months could go by, without him initiating. One time I

> decided just to wait until he initiated it, and I waited a year. I

> felt so unloved and humiliated. I had only been with a few other

men

> before marriage, but my other bf's " couldn't get enough " if you

know

> what I mean. So I've felt very sad and humiliated and rejected

about

> the sex issues. I've even asked myself, god is he gay, but I don't

> think so. There is no one else, I'm really sure. He's like

> emotionless. Agreeable but totally detached. wtf

>

> So he's a nice guy who is emotionally distant and asexual. I've

felt

> so unloved. Just like I felt in my FOO. How could I have tried

hard to

> choose a guy who would be the opposite of FOO (and is opposite in

many

> ways), and still get the same result, to feel so unloved and alone

in

> life? Did I do this to myself? I think I did, somehow.

>

> I don't believe in divorce for myself--no judgment on those who do

> divorce, its not for me though, and theres nothing bad enough to

> justify a divorce anyway. The kids would be devastated. Everyone's

> happy but me.

>

> So then, if anyone is still reading this long message, I went and

made

> things worse. Three years ago I fell into this internet affair. I

> wasn't looking for it. There was just this guy I happened to meet

> online who was so funny and attentive and always seemed happy to

see

> me and interested in what I had to say. That's all I seem to want,

> someone who is happy to see me and interested in me. Cuz at home I

> feel like a piece of furnitire.

>

> Okay, so that guy (Internet #1) turned out to be a raging NPD, just

> like dad and stepdad. After about three months of bliss, it was

almost

> three years of hell, with me knowing I had to get away from him,

but I

> was hooked in. This was a very emotionally abusive relationship. At

> times he " loved me " or " hated me " . I lived for the times when he

loved

> me. I finally got away from him when he dumped me. I wish I could

say

> I found the strength to leave, but no, the only thing that saved me

> from him, was him dumping me.

>

> I was devastated, and this was on top of my same problems with my

home

> life. Those problems didn't go away, they're still right there. I

> thought I learned my lesson about Internet relationships, then a

few

> months ago I fell into Internet relationship #2. Again not looking

for

> it. Internet #2 is an improvement over Internet #1, if you can say

> that having an online affair to meet your emotional needs is ever

an

> " improvement " .

>

> He's more a sweet, codependent type, kinda like me. He's a split-

good

> KO living at home as an adult, still very much under nadas

control, in

> therapy, really trying to understand his past and move beyond it.

God

> I hope he's not on this list. We have this emotionally close,

caring

> relationship, cuz we lived thorugh a lot of the same things.

> Personality-wise we're similar, have a lot of the same interests

and

> all. We're happy to see each other, we're kind to each other. The

> problem is, I think this is not healthy for either of us.

>

> Oh, then my husband found out about Internet #2 and he was very sad

> and upset. Of course. I told him I would end it, and I intended

to. I

> told Internet #2 I was ending it, and I intended to. But after

about a

> month, I felt like I was dying inside and I missed Internet#2 so

much.

> I went back to visiting with him every day. I'm so ashamed of

this. I

> just think I'm doing things that are unhealthy for everyone, bad

for

> everyone, including myself. I sat up half the night with Internet#2

> last night, and I almost feel like this relationship is like a drug

> that is numbing my pain from my daily life. A bandage over

gangrene.

>

> I also care about Internet #2 and would like to see him in a nice

> healthier relationship, not stuck in and focussed on a dead-end

> relationship with me, you know? And I feel so sad and sorry for

> causing pain to my husband, too. I feel like a bad person for going

> back on my intentions and sneaking (again) with Internet#2 after I

> said I would stop.

>

> Thanks for reading.

> Janie

>

[Guest guest]

Janie,

Another aspect of my choosing these emotionally shut down men was

that to me they symbolized stability. They were very structured,

never missed a day of work, etc and that was appealing to me. Like

you, I didn't realize until much later that they were just another

extreme, only at the other end of the spectrum. I think we tend to

swing from extreme to extreme until we find the middle, like a

pendulum, if it is the far end it swings far to the other side until

it finds in the middle.

Someone posted about how you might be putting yourself in a

situation where you are stuck and that rang very true to me. I also

had the same feeling but couldn't put my finger on it either. They

made an excellent point.

My brother is in a miserable marriage and so completely shut off

from himself that it makes me sad. He too does not believe in

divorce and his take on life now after 20 some years of marriage is

that life is hard and simply something to endure. I have tried to

tell him that it doesn't have to be that way but he has been in it

so long that I think a part of him died or perhaps he is just

totally dis-engaged from his true feelings that he doesn't even know

what they are anymore. He seems bitter, negative and depressed and I

keep thinking 'what are you accomplishing by staying? "

I guess he feels he is doing the 'right thing' but he is not being

true to himself. He doesn't even answer the phone now if anyone from

the family calls because I think he tries to put his misery out of

his mind and he doesn't want to think about it.

My older sister has also been in a miserable marriage for 30 some

years and will never leave. The common characteristic with both of

them is this bitterness towards life. I get the feeling that they

think 'Okay, I did the 'right thing' but it didn't pay off' or

something. My brother got pretty religious and so his take on life

is that 'God is hard and what doesn't kill you makes you stronger'

or some bull*hit like that.

I think with both of them that they don't feel they have the right

to happiness, and are punishing/denying themselves. Actually they

are both married to nada like people and so they are living fada's

life. And I find that so sad. I agree with the person who said our

children learn from the parents' relationship because my brother and

sister have in essence repeated it. And I find that especially

disturbing.

>

> ,

> Wow, thanks for sharing your story about your ex-bf's. Trish

shared a

> similar experience too. I wonder if this is a trend, ha. The

> difference being, I married mine. Your description--he cared about

you

> but didn't give you anything, blood from a turnip etc--thats just

so true.

>

> And I think what you said about going from an emotionally insane

> environment to one that's barren is also true. I think I even

> consciously was looking for that--a total lack of drama. Barren-

ness

> seemed so much like much-needed peace and tranquility. And it's

not.

>

> I got married right out of college. I know I made the best choice I

> could have, at the time, with the experiences/options/knowledge I

had,

> but still, I'm kinda hating myself for doing what now in retrospect

> seems to have totally messed up my life.

>

> Janie

>

[Guest guest]

Janie, what about asking DH to seek therapy? When I lost all sex

drive a few years back due to my bad coping techniques and totally

stressful life, I went to therapy largely because I realized that if I

didn't get my act together and find a way to handle my stress that it

was going to affect my relationship with my husband(that and I was

close to not being able to function in other aspects of my life like

my job!). Also, when I try to bring up something my husband is

terrified about or just extremely uncomfortable about, I sometimes get

the silent response--or the " I have nothing to say. " It's not as bad

as it was before, but it was definitely something we had to work

through. Again, therapy can be great for this--even therapy on your

own.

Just my thoughts.

Trish

>

> Hi, Trish,

> Thanks for your reply, esp in sharing your story of your previous

> relationships. When you wrote, " My needs were not

> being met even though he was a basically kind person who cared about

> me--there was definitely something wrong. " That just about sums it up.

>

> And yes, if you see my reply to Greg, you'll see I tried and tried and

> tried for years to do the " communication thing " --not only by telling

> my husband about what I wanted, but by trying to find out from him

> what he wanted too. It's like talking to a very kindly agreeable rock.

> You don't get anything back.

>

> There could be some aspect of distant relationships being safer, which

> caused me to choose my husband years ago, when I was that many years

> closer to being entangled with my scary FOO. As for the newer

> " relationships, " I'm sure I fell into internet friendships (as opposed

> to something in real life) because I was not looking to disrupt my

> marriage or replace my husband. Well, I wasn't " looking " to have _any_

> relationship at all, but I mean, I certainly don't want someone

> " available. " Because I'm not available, you know? That would be wrong,

> I think, to string someone into thinking a relationship like that had

> real potential. So, in this case, some distance/unavailability makes

> sense.

>

> But on the other hand, I really like the emotional closeness (ability

> to talk about things, the feeling of understanding him and being

> understood, all the affectionate give-and-take) that I have with

> Internet#2. So I really don't want the distance in my relationships.

> That's exactly what's making me miserable.

>

> Thanks for listening!

> Janie

>

[Guest guest]

Hi, all

I appreciate everyone who took the time to post. I understand some of

you perceive that I put myself in this bad situation that now I feel

helpless to get out of.

So, I thought about that for a couple of days, to try to digest it.

But I concluded... I don't think it's so much that I have an issue of

being helpless or trapped? Not in the sense of " things are horrible,

but I won't do anything to help myself. "

Right now, I feel this is a painful situation, in which the

alternatives are all even worse.

I sensed that somehow this present situation in my life (becoming

involved with an extremely nondramatic, emotionally unavailable man)

was somehow related to being a KO. Because I grew up with all sorts of

stressful, intolerable drama, I consciously wanted the opposite of

that, in my adult life. That's why I asked about it on this list. I

thought others might have had similar experiences.

And of course some of you did have similar experiences with someone

who seemed emotionally stable and undramatic, but who was also

rather...emotionally shut down / emotionally dead. Which ends up in

ironically re-creating the KO scenario of not getting one's emotional

needs met. At all.

Unfortunately for me, because I was hoping to hear and learn from

similar stories to mine--but fortunately for those of you who posted

about dating a man like this--you folks didn't marry yours and have kids.

So if I'm not " doing anything " it's not because I'm some waif who

wants to lay down and die helplessly. I guess I felt very defensive

and upset when I read some of the messages, because I interpreted it

to sound as though I was being dismissed as some borderline waif.

But my life has been an effort to get myself together, move beyond my

fleas, and _decrease_ drama, not stir it up. Decrease it! Not create

messes that I feel helpless to escape. I will just feel better if I

get this off my chest: I am so not a waif.

If I'm not immediately filing for divorce in this painful situation,

it's because I honestly do not see that any of my options would be an

_improvement_ to my life, my children's lives, etc.

And further, when I got married 12 years ago, I was not " putting

myself " into a bad situation. (Again, not a waif, creating bad

situations.) I was putting myself into the _best_ situation I knew

how. I thought I was, and would be, happy with this calm, stable man.

When I look at my friends' and aquaintances' marriages (and no, my

friends and acquaintances are not perfect people, cuz no one is, but

they tend to be fairly well-functioning, because I instinctively avoid

anyone who is too dysfunctional), there is not one of them whose

marriage I would prefer to have.

In fact, in many areas, my husband is really a good husband. It's just

that in a long post about what is causing me a lot of pain, I did not

feel I had the space to counterbalance that with a long explanation of

the ways in which we get along well or are compatible. So I just

covered that in a line or two, when I said things like, we agree on

values, we are like roommates who get along really well. We don't

argue about money, or about parenting (well, very rarely, haha), or

about dividing up the household responsibilities. We both contribute a

lot to running a peaceful home, to taking care of our

responsibilities, for being as-good-parents-as-we-can to our kids.

Anyway, hm. I came to this group at a real low point in my life, after

trying hard for years to do better than the circumstances I grew up

in. I made myself pretty vulnerable. And now I feel really hurt,

somehow. Maybe...like I was not understood really well (maybe in my

pain I didn't explain it very well). Or maybe like...I was dismissed

as being too dysfunctional for your group, because I was so open about

what I've done in the past few years--cuz it's not real pretty, and

I'm definitely not proud of it--and because I was so open about what

was causing me pain.

[Guest guest]

Oh my gosh!! If I was one of the people who wrote about your situation in a way

that made you feel judged or dismissed I TOTALLY apologize! That honestly

wasn't my intention at all!

This whole journey of figuring out and healing from our childhoods that we're

all on is so complicated, and it's such a struggle (for me, anyway) to see

things clearly that sometimes just writing things out as they occur to me is

very helpful -- but I sure don't pretend to be an expert about anything, all I

have is my own experience!

And you want to talk re-enacting psychodramas or putting yourself in a bad

situation, I'm like the Queen of that! I went the other way and married a guy

who was JUST LIKE my nada and exposed my son -- and myself -- to that kind of

abuse for years.... ugghhhhh.

And THEN, when I finally left that marriage, I let my nada hoover me into

sharing a house with her! Talk about impossible situations....

Anyhow, please keep posting and I SO apologize if anything I wrote made you feel

bad! It never even occurred to me you were a BP, or a " waif " , or any of that.

Shana

Re: new, don't know if this makes sense

To: WTOAdultChildren1

> Hi, all

> I appreciate everyone who took the time to post. I understand

> some of

> you perceive that I put myself in this bad situation that now I feel

> helpless to get out of.

>

> So, I thought about that for a couple of days, to try to digest

> it.

>

> But I concluded... I don't think it's so much that I have an

> issue of

> being helpless or trapped? Not in the sense of " things are horrible,

> but I won't do anything to help myself. "

>

> Right now, I feel this is a painful situation, in which the

> alternatives are all even worse.

>

> I sensed that somehow this present situation in my life (becoming

> involved with an extremely nondramatic, emotionally unavailable man)

> was somehow related to being a KO. Because I grew up with all

> sorts of

> stressful, intolerable drama, I consciously wanted the opposite of

> that, in my adult life. That's why I asked about it on this

> list. I

> thought others might have had similar experiences.

>

> And of course some of you did have similar experiences with someone

> who seemed emotionally stable and undramatic, but who was also

> rather...emotionally shut down / emotionally dead. Which ends up in

> ironically re-creating the KO scenario of not getting one's emotional

> needs met. At all.

>

> Unfortunately for me, because I was hoping to hear and learn from

> similar stories to mine--but fortunately for those of you who posted

> about dating a man like this--you folks didn't marry yours and

> have kids.

>

> So if I'm not " doing anything " it's not because I'm some waif who

> wants to lay down and die helplessly. I guess I felt very defensive

> and upset when I read some of the messages, because I

> interpreted it

> to sound as though I was being dismissed as some borderline waif.

>

> But my life has been an effort to get myself together, move

> beyond my

> fleas, and _decrease_ drama, not stir it up. Decrease it! Not create

> messes that I feel helpless to escape. I will just feel better

> if I

> get this off my chest: I am so not a waif.

>

> If I'm not immediately filing for divorce in this painful situation,

> it's because I honestly do not see that any of my options would

> be an

> _improvement_ to my life, my children's lives, etc.

>

> And further, when I got married 12 years ago, I was not " putting

> myself " into a bad situation. (Again, not a waif, creating bad

> situations.) I was putting myself into the _best_ situation I knew

> how. I thought I was, and would be, happy with this calm, stable man.

>

> When I look at my friends' and aquaintances' marriages (and no, my

> friends and acquaintances are not perfect people, cuz no one is, but

> they tend to be fairly well-functioning, because I instinctively avoid

> anyone who is too dysfunctional), there is not one of them whose

> marriage I would prefer to have.

>

> In fact, in many areas, my husband is really a good husband.

> It's just

> that in a long post about what is causing me a lot of pain, I

> did not

> feel I had the space to counterbalance that with a long

> explanation of

> the ways in which we get along well or are compatible. So I just

> covered that in a line or two, when I said things like, we agree on

> values, we are like roommates who get along really well. We don't

> argue about money, or about parenting (well, very rarely, haha), or

> about dividing up the household responsibilities. We both

> contribute a

> lot to running a peaceful home, to taking care of our

> responsibilities, for being as-good-parents-as-we-can to our

> kids.

>

> Anyway, hm. I came to this group at a real low point in my life, after

> trying hard for years to do better than the circumstances I grew up

> in. I made myself pretty vulnerable. And now I feel really hurt,

> somehow. Maybe...like I was not understood really well (maybe in my

> pain I didn't explain it very well). Or maybe like...I was dismissed

> as being too dysfunctional for your group, because I was so open about

> what I've done in the past few years--cuz it's not real pretty, and

> I'm definitely not proud of it--and because I was so open about what

> was causing me pain.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Janie,

Hi. I didn't respond to your original post because I didn't really

think I could help, because I'm not married, and I don't have kids.

I felt that your post was so completely out of my experience that I

couldn't possibly have anything to say that would help. But this

one, I can totally relate to.

I can tell you most definitely that you are not a waif or a bp and i

sincerely doubt that anyone on this list thinks you are. You are a

KO, which comes with it's own issues and difficulties, and those are

different for every one of us.

I have had similar problems from time to time, with feeling

misunderstood or invalidated, but the truth for me was (and I think

for you, too.) that everybody wanted to give you support and they

tried the best way they know how. But, the thing to remember is that

just because the hurt wasn't intended doesn't mean you don't have

the right to feel it.

I think that as a KO, you should be at least a little proud of

yourself for telling us your feelings. Too often we force ourselves

into thinking our emotions are wrong and we suppress them.

Another thing that might help you is to remember that advice from us

isn't like advice from nada: We won't hate you or shun you if you

don't take it. We'll support you regardless of what you do. We

aren't trying to force you to do anything, just telling you what

we'd do. You get to make up your own mind here.

I've had a few problems with my family since I joined this list, and

every time I've posted, I've gotten several responses. Recently I

had an issue with my grannada where I was feeling guilty for

disagreeing with her version of reality. The only negative thing I

got was the feeling that I was being dumb for feeling guilty in the

first place!

I hope that your first experience with us hasn't left a permanently

bad taste in your mouth. I hope that you'll continue posting. This

really is a good place to vent and to find support. But, at the same

time, we will understand and support your decision if you don't.

That's the beauty of being among the relatively sane. You're allowed

to make up your own mind about what you want to do.

Neko Jaimie

[Guest guest]

Hey, Shana,

I took another few days off from the list. It's almost too much. You

all write things that are soooo familiar. Small doses are best right now.

Thanks for caring about my feelings in this. My post wasn't directed

at you in particular! I really felt overall misunderstood and

defensive--and I think maybe partly because I shared info about myself

shows me in the very worst light, and that is so uncomfortable. So

part of it is my imagination at work, old tapes replaying (what would

nada say, omg?) etc.

I'm going through such a hard time right now, and I'm

constantly--KO-fashion--doubting everything--my own worth, my own

mental health (or lack thereof), certainly my own perceptions or judgment.

But I did not feel as if anyone was trying to be mean or unhelpful or

anything like that, so... I very much appreciate that you cared about

my distress, but truly I don't think you did anything to apologize

for, either. Thanks for caring.

Janie

[Guest guest]

Neko Jaimie,

Thanks for a very helpful post! You summed it up very nicely, and I

especially appreciated your point that advice from the list is not the

same as advice from nada.

Of course, for most of us, we grew up with " nada's way or the highway " .

Also, I grew up with very harsh judgments from nada and NPD stepfather

whenever I fell short of their vision of perfection. (It's still

tempting for me to act on the outside like everything is just fine

when it's not. Life's great.) So whenever I'm discussing my

imperfections, I prepare for the coming attack.

Janie

[Guest guest]

Janie,

What's to apologize about?

Greg.

j_psmythe wrote:

Hey, Shana,

I took another few days off from the list. It's almost too much. You

all write things that are soooo familiar. Small doses are best right now.

Thanks for caring about my feelings in this. My post wasn't directed

at you in particular! I really felt overall misunderstood and

defensive--and I think maybe partly because I shared info about myself

shows me in the very worst light, and that is so uncomfortable. So

part of it is my imagination at work, old tapes replaying (what would

nada say, omg?) etc.

I'm going through such a hard time right now, and I'm

constantly--KO-fashion--doubting everything--my own worth, my own

mental health (or lack thereof), certainly my own perceptions or judgment.

But I did not feel as if anyone was trying to be mean or unhelpful or

anything like that, so... I very much appreciate that you cared about

my distress, but truly I don't think you did anything to apologize

for, either. Thanks for caring.

Janie

---------------------------------

Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com

[Guest guest]

Exactly. As I said in the post--to Shana--who apologized--there WAS

nothing to apologize for imo. I didn't want her to feel she had done

anything wrong. Janie

> Hey, Shana,

>

> I took another few days off from the list. It's almost too much. You

> all write things that are soooo familiar. Small doses are best right

now.

>

> Thanks for caring about my feelings in this. My post wasn't directed

> at you in particular! I really felt overall misunderstood and

> defensive--and I think maybe partly because I shared info about myself

> shows me in the very worst light, and that is so uncomfortable. So

> part of it is my imagination at work, old tapes replaying (what would

> nada say, omg?) etc.

>

> I'm going through such a hard time right now, and I'm

> constantly--KO-fashion--doubting everything--my own worth, my own

> mental health (or lack thereof), certainly my own perceptions or

judgment.

>

> But I did not feel as if anyone was trying to be mean or unhelpful or

> anything like that, so... I very much appreciate that you cared about

> my distress, but truly I don't think you did anything to apologize

> for, either. Thanks for caring.

>

> Janie

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com

>

>

[Guest guest]

Greg,

Exactly. Nothing. As I said in the post--to Shana--who ***had***

apologized--there was no need for her to apologize IMO. Did I miss

something else? Or am I just way more unclear than I already thought?

Janie

> Hey, Shana,

>

> I took another few days off from the list. It's almost too much. You

> all write things that are soooo familiar. Small doses are best right

now.

>

> Thanks for caring about my feelings in this. My post wasn't directed

> at you in particular! I really felt overall misunderstood and

> defensive--and I think maybe partly because I shared info about myself

> shows me in the very worst light, and that is so uncomfortable. So

> part of it is my imagination at work, old tapes replaying (what would

> nada say, omg?) etc.

>

> I'm going through such a hard time right now, and I'm

> constantly--KO-fashion--doubting everything--my own worth, my own

> mental health (or lack thereof), certainly my own perceptions or

judgment.

>

> But I did not feel as if anyone was trying to be mean or unhelpful or

> anything like that, so... I very much appreciate that you cared about

> my distress, but truly I don't think you did anything to apologize

> for, either. Thanks for caring.

>

> Janie

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com

>

>

[Guest guest]

Oh, Janie,

I got confused. Sorry. I thought it was you instead of Shana who apologized.

My mistake. I read and answered those after being awake for 38 hours when I got

back from my trip.

Greg.

j_psmythe wrote:

Greg,

Exactly. Nothing. As I said in the post--to Shana--who ***had***

apologized--there was no need for her to apologize IMO. Did I miss

something else? Or am I just way more unclear than I already thought?

Janie

> Hey, Shana,

>

> I took another few days off from the list. It's almost too much. You

> all write things that are soooo familiar. Small doses are best right

now.

>

> Thanks for caring about my feelings in this. My post wasn't directed

> at you in particular! I really felt overall misunderstood and

> defensive--and I think maybe partly because I shared info about myself

> shows me in the very worst light, and that is so uncomfortable. So

> part of it is my imagination at work, old tapes replaying (what would

> nada say, omg?) etc.

>

> I'm going through such a hard time right now, and I'm

> constantly--KO-fashion--doubting everything--my own worth, my own

> mental health (or lack thereof), certainly my own perceptions or

judgment.

>

> But I did not feel as if anyone was trying to be mean or unhelpful or

> anything like that, so... I very much appreciate that you cared about

> my distress, but truly I don't think you did anything to apologize

> for, either. Thanks for caring.

>

> Janie

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com

>

>