Re: [BULK] Thin

[Guest guest]

There is a rehab place for eating disorders called Remuda Ranch in Arizona.

They did a presentation of what they do that I attended. It is amazing the

lengths the inpatient places have to go to keep pts from being able to carry out

their behaviors. I think it's very unfortunate that these ladies are making

progress and getting kicked out on the streets because insurance won't cover it.

It was a good documentary, I missed like the first half hour, so I'm not sure if

it was covered but I wish they would have talked about what had happened in

their lives in the past.

[bULK] Thin

Importance: Low

Did any one watch it tonight?

I thought it was one of the most important documentary ever made.

However, I think the public needs more insight as for what coursing it, it is

not only about wanting to be thin. These girls " substitute " with eating

disorders for many things in their lives (not all to be reviled on TV,

obviously) but we need the public to know they are not " jus crazy " or have wrong

body image. Its not that simple. (Dahhhhhh.... we all know that. I am not

inventing any wheals)

Still - the program was excellent.

I thought the psychologist didn't dig in enough (hopefully, and most likely,

only in front of the camera) as for the reasons they have eating disorder.

and since insurance won't cover - it's another major problem. I was thinking

that I would like to volunteer, to cut down the insurance costs, but I believe I

need special training to be part of their team.

[Guest guest]

Remuda rocks - just had a patient back from there and the level of

counselling and intervention is amazing. She is Canadian and all costs

were covered by the gov't. this patient was a 14 year duration anorexic

and near death when she flew south. I call her Lazarus!

Marg Alfieri

jen zingaro wrote:

> There is a rehab place for eating disorders called Remuda Ranch in

> Arizona. They did a presentation of what they do that I attended. It

> is amazing the lengths the inpatient places have to go to keep pts

> from being able to carry out their behaviors. I think it's very

> unfortunate that these ladies are making progress and getting kicked

> out on the streets because insurance won't cover it. It was a good

> documentary, I missed like the first half hour, so I'm not sure if it

> was covered but I wish they would have talked about what had happened

> in their lives in the past.

>

>

>

> [bULK] Thin

> Importance: Low

>

> Did any one watch it tonight?

>

> I thought it was one of the most important documentary ever made.

> However, I think the public needs more insight as for what coursing

> it, it is not only about wanting to be thin. These girls " substitute "

> with eating disorders for many things in their lives (not all to be

> reviled on TV, obviously) but we need the public to know they are not

> " jus crazy " or have wrong body image. Its not that simple.

> (Dahhhhhh... . we all know that. I am not inventing any wheals)

> Still - the program was excellent.

> I thought the psychologist didn't dig in enough (hopefully, and most

> likely, only in front of the camera) as for the reasons they have

> eating disorder.

> and since insurance won't cover - it's another major problem. I was

> thinking that I would like to volunteer, to cut down the insurance

> costs, but I believe I need special training to be part of their team.

>

>

[Guest guest]

I agree:

I've taken on two Remuda pts' aftercare and they both are doing well.

Marg Alfieri wrote:

Remuda rocks - just had a patient back from there and the level of

counselling and intervention is amazing. She is Canadian and all costs

were covered by the gov't. this patient was a 14 year duration anorexic

and near death when she flew south. I call her Lazarus!

Marg Alfieri

jen zingaro wrote:

> There is a rehab place for eating disorders called Remuda Ranch in

> Arizona. They did a presentation of what they do that I attended. It

> is amazing the lengths the inpatient places have to go to keep pts

> from being able to carry out their behaviors. I think it's very

> unfortunate that these ladies are making progress and getting kicked

> out on the streets because insurance won't cover it. It was a good

> documentary, I missed like the first half hour, so I'm not sure if it

> was covered but I wish they would have talked about what had happened

> in their lives in the past.

>

>

>

> [bULK] Thin

> Importance: Low

>

> Did any one watch it tonight?

>

> I thought it was one of the most important documentary ever made.

> However, I think the public needs more insight as for what coursing

> it, it is not only about wanting to be thin. These girls " substitute "

> with eating disorders for many things in their lives (not all to be

> reviled on TV, obviously) but we need the public to know they are not

> " jus crazy " or have wrong body image. Its not that simple.

> (Dahhhhhh... . we all know that. I am not inventing any wheals)

> Still - the program was excellent.

> I thought the psychologist didn't dig in enough (hopefully, and most

> likely, only in front of the camera) as for the reasons they have

> eating disorder.

> and since insurance won't cover - it's another major problem. I was

> thinking that I would like to volunteer, to cut down the insurance

> costs, but I believe I need special training to be part of their team.

>

>

[Guest guest]

The Canadian medical system is truly amazing.

[bULK] Thin

> Importance: Low

>

> Did any one watch it tonight?

>

> I thought it was one of the most important documentary ever made.

> However, I think the public needs more insight as for what coursing

> it, it is not only about wanting to be thin. These girls " substitute "

> with eating disorders for many things in their lives (not all to be

> reviled on TV, obviously) but we need the public to know they are not

> " jus crazy " or have wrong body image. Its not that simple.

> (Dahhhhhh... . we all know that. I am not inventing any wheals)

> Still - the program was excellent.

> I thought the psychologist didn't dig in enough (hopefully, and most

> likely, only in front of the camera) as for the reasons they have

> eating disorder.

> and since insurance won't cover - it's another major problem. I was

> thinking that I would like to volunteer, to cut down the insurance

> costs, but I believe I need special training to be part of their team.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Free medical care is quite nice.

Marg

jen zingaro wrote:

> The Canadian medical system is truly amazing.

>

>

> [bULK] Thin

> > Importance: Low

> >

> > Did any one watch it tonight?

> >

> > I thought it was one of the most important documentary ever made.

> > However, I think the public needs more insight as for what coursing

> > it, it is not only about wanting to be thin. These girls " substitute "

> > with eating disorders for many things in their lives (not all to be

> > reviled on TV, obviously) but we need the public to know they are not

> > " jus crazy " or have wrong body image. Its not that simple.

> > (Dahhhhhh... . we all know that. I am not inventing any wheals)

> > Still - the program was excellent.

> > I thought the psychologist didn't dig in enough (hopefully, and most

> > likely, only in front of the camera) as for the reasons they have

> > eating disorder.

> > and since insurance won't cover - it's another major problem. I was

> > thinking that I would like to volunteer, to cut down the insurance

> > costs, but I believe I need special training to be part of their team.

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Yeah if it is so amazing, why do people have to wait for up to 9 months to have

a cardiac cath done and then if additional procedures related to that cath

results there is up to another 6 to 9 month wait?

Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

[bULK] Thin

> Importance: Low

>

> Did any one watch it tonight?

>

> I thought it was one of the most important documentary ever made.

> However, I think the public needs more insight as for what coursing

> it, it is not only about wanting to be thin. These girls " substitute "

> with eating disorders for many things in their lives (not all to be

> reviled on TV, obviously) but we need the public to know they are not

> " jus crazy " or have wrong body image. Its not that simple.

> (Dahhhhhh... . we all know that. I am not inventing any wheals)

> Still - the program was excellent.

> I thought the psychologist didn't dig in enough (hopefully, and most

> likely, only in front of the camera) as for the reasons they have

> eating disorder.

> and since insurance won't cover - it's another major problem. I was

> thinking that I would like to volunteer, to cut down the insurance

> costs, but I believe I need special training to be part of their team.

>

>

[Guest guest]

I think that is the same way in England also...there are always pros and

cons to everything. In fact there is a class action lawsuit in Canada

because it takes so long for breast cancer patients to get tx that the

outcomes are worsened.

Check Nutrition at my site:

Nutrition.teach-nology.com

Ortiz, RD

nrord@...

" The belly rules the mind. "

[bULK] Thin

> > Importance: Low

> >

> > Did any one watch it tonight?

> >

> > I thought it was one of the most important documentary ever made.

> > However, I think the public needs more insight as for what coursing

> > it, it is not only about wanting to be thin. These girls " substitute "

> > with eating disorders for many things in their lives (not all to be

> > reviled on TV, obviously) but we need the public to know they are not

> > " jus crazy " or have wrong body image. Its not that simple.

> > (Dahhhhhh... . we all know that. I am not inventing any wheals)

> > Still - the program was excellent.

> > I thought the psychologist didn't dig in enough (hopefully, and most

> > likely, only in front of the camera) as for the reasons they have

> > eating disorder.

> > and since insurance won't cover - it's another major problem. I was

> > thinking that I would like to volunteer, to cut down the insurance

> > costs, but I believe I need special training to be part of their team.

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Wait times are always an issue. There are now government web sites that

track all the wait times and that the public can access. Our cardiac

surgery times are the lowest and thus we get more money for funding than

slower centers. The old carrot or the stick motivation!

CT scans or MRI wait time are now < 6 weeks - used to be 6 months. The

system isn't perfect, but is improving.

Marg

carolscasey@... wrote:

>Yeah if it is so amazing, why do people have to wait for up to 9 months to have

a cardiac cath done and then if additional procedures related to that cath

results there is up to another 6 to 9 month wait?

>Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

>

> [bULK] Thin

> > Importance: Low

> >

> > Did any one watch it tonight?

> >

> > I thought it was one of the most important documentary ever made.

> > However, I think the public needs more insight as for what coursing

> > it, it is not only about wanting to be thin. These girls " substitute "

> > with eating disorders for many things in their lives (not all to be

> > reviled on TV, obviously) but we need the public to know they are not

> > " jus crazy " or have wrong body image. Its not that simple.

> > (Dahhhhhh... . we all know that. I am not inventing any wheals)

> > Still - the program was excellent.

> > I thought the psychologist didn't dig in enough (hopefully, and most

> > likely, only in front of the camera) as for the reasons they have

> > eating disorder.

> > and since insurance won't cover - it's another major problem. I was

> > thinking that I would like to volunteer, to cut down the insurance

> > costs, but I believe I need special training to be part of their team.

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Nothing is ever free :-)

Check Nutrition at my site:

Nutrition.teach-nology.com

Ortiz, RD

nrord@...

" The belly rules the mind. "

[bULK] Thin

> > Importance: Low

> >

> > Did any one watch it tonight?

> >

> > I thought it was one of the most important documentary ever made.

> > However, I think the public needs more insight as for what coursing

> > it, it is not only about wanting to be thin. These girls " substitute "

> > with eating disorders for many things in their lives (not all to be

> > reviled on TV, obviously) but we need the public to know they are not

> > " jus crazy " or have wrong body image. Its not that simple.

> > (Dahhhhhh... . we all know that. I am not inventing any wheals)

> > Still - the program was excellent.

> > I thought the psychologist didn't dig in enough (hopefully, and most

> > likely, only in front of the camera) as for the reasons they have

> > eating disorder.

> > and since insurance won't cover - it's another major problem. I was

> > thinking that I would like to volunteer, to cut down the insurance

> > costs, but I believe I need special training to be part of their team.

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Ladies, and Gentlemen:

Please don't forget - " There Ain't No Such Thing as a Free Lunch " (TANSTAFL), in

the words of a very wise visionary.

Somebody is definitely paying for it BIG TIME!!!

Digna Cassens, MHA, RD

http://groups.msn.com/RDForum

Start by doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you are

doing the impossible. St. Francis Assis

[bULK] Thin

> > Importance: Low

> >

> > Did any one watch it tonight?

> >

> > I thought it was one of the most important documentary ever made.

> > However, I think the public needs more insight as for what coursing

> > it, it is not only about wanting to be thin. These girls " substitute "

> > with eating disorders for many things in their lives (not all to be

> > reviled on TV, obviously) but we need the public to know they are not

> > " jus crazy " or have wrong body image. Its not that simple.

> > (Dahhhhhh... . we all know that. I am not inventing any wheals)

> > Still - the program was excellent.

> > I thought the psychologist didn't dig in enough (hopefully, and most

> > likely, only in front of the camera) as for the reasons they have

> > eating disorder.

> > and since insurance won't cover - it's another major problem. I was

> > thinking that I would like to volunteer, to cut down the insurance

> > costs, but I believe I need special training to be part of their team.

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Ortiz, R.D. wrote:

> Nothing is ever free :-)

Oh, so true. My Canadian friend says that over half of their household

income goes to the government for taxes, I believe primarily designated

for health care. Which is great for those who are sick; but not so great

for those who stay healthy.

Also, another Canadian friend with Parkinson's disease developed

non-small-cell lung cancer, although he had never smoked a day in his

life. There was a cancer drug -- very expensive -- that might have

helped; but his doctor told him that because he had a progressive and

incurable disease (PD) the drug would have to allocated for people who

weren't as sick. He was a year from retirement, and wanted very much to

live long enough to allow his wife to receive his retirement benefits.

As a matter of fact he did -- barely -- but not thanks to his cancer

treatment.

There is much good that can be said about Canadian healthcare, but there

are some negative aspects as well.

For another view of Canadian healthcare see:

<http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0604/medicine.men061104.asp>

Jewish World Review June 11, 2004 / 22 Sivan 5764

Drs. A. Glueck & J. Cihak

Canada's health system dream turns to nightmare

http://www.NewsAndOpinion.com | For decades our Canadian friends and

relatives cast pitying glances at their poor American neighbors who have

to pay for heath care while Canada's medical insurance is " free " .

On the other side of the border, Americans like Representative

McDermott, MD (D-WA) fantasize about importing the Canadian health care

dream to the U.S. so that every citizen has " equal access " to medical care.

But more and more Canadians are awakening — not from a dream — but from

a nightmare. The results are coming in. After years of

government-controlled health care, the ordinary Canadian patient is

noticing his health care system is ailing badly. Plus it's bleeding

money — his hard-earned tax dollars.

Comparing Canada with other industrialized countries in the Organization

for Economic ation and Development (OECD) that provide universal

access to health care, a study released by The Fraser Institute in May

revealed that Canada spends more on its system than other nations while

ranking among the lowest in several key indicators, such as access to

physicians, quality of medical equipment, and key health outcomes.

The study identifies one of the major reasons for this discrepancy.

Unlike other countries in the study that outperformed Canada — such as

Sweden, Japan, Australia, and France — Canada outlaws virtually all

private health care. If the government says it provides a medical

service, it's illegal for a Canadian citizen to pay for and get the

service privately. In practice, this means a patient must linger in line

for hospital treatment — an average of 17.7 weeks in 2003, according to

an annual survey on hospital waiting list published by the Fraser Institute.

In 1999, F. Davies, MD, described how delays affected Ontario

heart patients scheduled for coronary artery bypass graft (CABG)

surgery. In a single year, for this one operation, 71 patients died

before surgery and another " 121 were removed from the list permanently

because they had become medically unfit for surgery; " 44 left Ontario

and had their CABG elsewhere, such as in the USA. In other words, 192

people either died or were too sick to have surgery before they worked

their way to the front of the waiting line.

Donate to JWR

One of the reasons Canadians are slow to acknowledge the problems with

their system is that general practitioners have been relatively easy to

access and reasonably efficient at providing everyday services for

common complaints, such as colds, sprains, aches and pains.

As time passes, however, more and more Canadians are confronted by the

halting quality of their system when they face complex and expensive

medical problems. They often cannot get timely or appropriate care for

bone fractures, prompt treatment for cancer, or non-emergency surgery

such as hip replacements. Their doctors complain that they are unable to

help them and the government pleads shortage of funds.

International and Canadian data confirms their concerns. In a 2004

article in the journal " Health Affairs, " Blendon reports an

international survey of hospital administrators in Australia, New

Zealand, Great Britain, the USA and Canada. When asked for the average

waiting time for biopsy of a possible breast cancer in a 50-year-old

woman, 21% of administrators of Canadian hospitals said more than 3

weeks; 1% of American hospital administrators gave the same answer.

Half (50 percent) of the Canadian hospital administrators said the

average waiting time for a 65-year-old man who requires a routine hip

replacement was more than six months; in contrast, no (as in zero)

American hospital administrators reported waiting periods that long. 86

percent of American hospital administrators said the average waiting

time was shorter than three weeks; only 3 percent of Canadian hospital

administrators said their patients have this brief a wait.

Canadian physician frustration with their inability to provide quality

and timely care is resulting in a brain drain. According to one poll,

one in three Canadian doctors is considering leaving the country. A

doctor shortage looms, as the nation falls 500 doctors a year short of

the 2,500 new physicians it needs to add each year to meet national

health needs, according to Sally Pipes, a policy expert formerly with

the Canadian Fraser Institute.

Another casualty of the lengthy waiting periods is Canada's much-vaunted

equal access to medical treatment. Even though medical emergencies allow

some people to jump ahead in the waiting line — making others wait

longer — a survey published in the ls of Internal Medicine medical

journal found that more than 90 percent of heart specialists had " been

involved in the care of a patient who received preferential access " to

cardiac care based on non-medical reasons including the patient's social

standing or personal connections with the treating physician.

Luckily, 90 percent of Canadians live close to the border with the

States and can come south to fill in the gaps in their health care

system with American doctors and hospitals.

If the U.S. adopts the Canadian health care dream and it turns into a

nightmare, where will we go for medical services? To Mexico?

These Medicine Men think we already suffer from enough Canadian-style,

centrally-controlled government health care. For example, American

Medicare's slow acceptance of medical innovation, exacting paperwork

requirements, delayed and low payment of claims, and the threat of

overzealous prosecution by Medicare cops are driving doctors out of the

Medicare system. As a result, patients on Medicare find they have fewer

medical options.

We believe more patient choice — such as in the new Health Savings

Account (HSA)/catastrophic insurance options — rather than government

control, better fulfills the American Dream of life, liberty and the

pursuit of happiness for all.

Editor's Note: J. Cihak wrote this week's column.

======================

also:

<http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/WinnipegSun/News/2005/06/25/1103871-sun.html>

Sat, June 25, 2005

Stripped of rights

Public trustee takes control of man's life without consent

By TOM BRODBECK

Hanaway, 80, never asked the government to take over his life.

But that's exactly what they've done to the Second World War veteran,

cleaning out his bank account, seizing his pension cheques and assuming

complete control over his life -- without even asking him or his family.

Hanaway was diagnosed with Parkinson's disease last year but lives with

his wife Grace Hanaway, 79, and their son Hanaway Jr., 47, who

care for him in their two-storey North End home.

Hanaway, a bit of a surly old guy with a good sense of humour, can walk

and carry on a conversation. He eats on his own. He receives daily

visits from home care workers, who bath and care for him.

He appears clean and well taken care of and he likes to watch TV in his

living room.

For an 80-year-old man, he seems relatively lucid.

Despite that, the province's chief provincial psychiatrist has deemed

him unfit and has appointed the Office of the Public Trustee to take

over all of his affairs.

His family can no longer make medical decisions on his behalf. And if he

wants to spend his money, he has to get permission from the Public

Trustee, which has stripped him of some of his most basic rights.

" I never asked for this, " he told me, after I spent a couple of days

with the family this week. " I don't want to be under their wing. "

Should scare families

This is a story that should scare the living hell out of anyone

approaching old age. And it should scare their families, too.

This isn't just a story about our nanny state overstepping its bounds a

little.

This is about state control of our lives. It's about the arbitrary loss

of your freedom.

" It's not like he's living alone and not being taken care of, " said Tom

Hanaway, Jr., who says he's in disbelief over what's happened the past

two months. " We look after him. "

Hanaway attends a day program for geriatric people. Staff recommended he

undergo a psychiatric assessment, which took place in April. The

assessment concluded Hanaway was not capable of managing his affairs due

to " health problems. "

The assessment was forwarded to the chief provincial psychiatrist,

according to documents obtained by The Sun.

And on May 24, the director of psychiatric services, Dr. Rodgers,

wrote Hanaway stating he planned to issue an " order of committeeship "

that would allow the Public Trustee to take over his affairs.

Amazingly, this is all legal.

The order was made June 6 and the Public Trustee immediately seized

Hanaway's bank account -- without the consent of him or his family --

and began taking over all of his financial affairs. They took $900 out

of a joint account shared by him and his wife Grace, even though some of

the money came from Grace's pension cheques.

" I can't believe something like this is possible, " said Louise Lamaga,

57, Hanaway's daughter, an elementary school teacher living in

Hadashville, about 100 km east of Winnipeg. " This is too ridiculous to

even be believable. "

Lamaga is in close contact with her father and visits the family home

regularly. She says he's cared for, he's fed and his affairs are all

taken care of by family.

The decision to take over Hanaway's life appears to revolve entirely

around the psychiatric assessment. It's unknown what Hanaway did or said

that triggered the Public Trustee order.

Lamaga said she has asked the chief provincial psychiatrist for her

father's file but they refused, saying it was " confidential medical

information. "

Lamaga says if her father is incompetent, then why would the chief

provincial psychiatrist base his decision to take over her father's

affairs solely on what he said without investigating further?

No home visit or face-to-face interviews were conducted with Hanaway's

family before the order was made, the family says.

Dr. was unavailable for comment yesterday.

To add insult to injury, the Public Trustee is now charging Hanaway to

take care of him.

They charge $60 an hour for inspection visits and $40 an hour for travel

time. They take a 3% cut of his income -- in his case, Canada Pension

Plan and Old Age Security cheques -- and if there are any legal fees,

Hanaway has to pay those, too.

They even charge him GST on the fees.

I sat in on the first face-to-face meeting between the family and the

Public Trustee this week at Hanaway's home, unbeknownst to the

bureaucrats in the room.

It was shocking to say the least.

===================================================

Also:

<http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story & cid=534 & ncid=534 & e=9 & u=/ap/20050320\

/ap_on_he_me/canada_wait_your_turn>

Canadians Face Long Waits for Health Care

Sat Mar 19,11:38 PM ET

Add to My Yahoo! Health - AP

By BETH DUFF-BROWN, Associated Press Writer

TORONTO - A letter from the Moncton Hospital to a New Brunswick heart

patient in need of an electrocardiogram said the appointment would be in

three months. It added: " If the person named on this computer-generated

letter is deceased, please accept our sincere apologies. "

The patient wasn't dead, according to the doctor who showed the letter

to The Associated Press on condition of anonymity. But there are many

Canadians who claim the long wait for the test and the frigid formality

of the letter are indicative of a health system badly in need of

emergency care.

Americans who flock to Canada for cheap flu shots often come away

impressed at the free and first-class medical care available to

Canadians, rich or poor. But tell that to hospital administrators

constantly having to cut staff for lack of funds, or to the mother whose

teenager was advised she would have to wait up to three years for

surgery to repair a torn knee ligament.

" It's like somebody's telling you that you can buy this car, and you've

paid for the car, but you can't have it right now, " said Jane Pelton.

Rather than leave daughter in pain and a knee brace, the Ottawa

family opted to pay $3,300 for arthroscopic surgery at a private clinic

in Vancouver, with no help from the government.

" Every day we're paying for health care, yet when we go to access it,

it's just not there, " said Pelton.

The average Canadian family pays about 48 percent of its income in taxes

each year, partly to fund the health care system. Rates vary from

province to province, but Ontario, the most populous, spends roughly 40

percent of every tax dollar on health care, according to the Canadian

Taxpayers Federation.

The system is going broke, says the federation, which campaigns for tax

reform and private enterprise in health care.

It calculates that at present rates, Ontario will be spending 85 percent

of its budget on health care by 2035. " We can't afford a state monopoly

on health care anymore, " says Tasha Kheiriddin, Ontario director of the

federation. " We have to examine private alternatives as well. "

The federal government and virtually every province acknowledge there's

a crisis: a lack of physicians and nurses, state-of-the-art equipment

and funding. In Ontario, more than 10,000 nurses and hospital workers

are facing layoffs over the next two years unless the provincial

government boosts funding, says the Ontario Hospital Association, which

represents health care providers in the province.

In 1984 Parliament passed the Canada Health Act, which affirmed the

federal government's commitment to provide mostly free health care to

all, including the 200,000 immigrants arriving each year. The system is

called Medicare (no relation to Medicare in the United States).

Despite the financial burden, Canadians value their Medicare as a marker

of egalitarianism and independent identity that sets their country apart

from the United States, where some 45 million Americans lack health

insurance.

Raisa Deber, a professor of health policy at the University of Toronto,

believes Canada's system is one of the world's fairest.

" Canadians are very proud of the fact that if they need care, they will

get care, " she said. Of the United States, she said: " I don't understand

how they got to this worship of markets, to the extent that they're

perfectly happy that some people don't get the health care that they need. "

Canada does not have fully nationalized health care; its doctors are in

private practice and send their bills to the government for reimbursement.

" That doctor doesn't have to worry about how you're going to pay the

bill, " said Deber. " He knows that his bill will be paid, so there's

absolutely nothing to stop any doctor from treating anyone. "

Deber acknowledges problems in the system, but believes most Canadians

get the care they need. She said the federal government should attach

more strings to its annual lump-sum allocations to the provinces so that

tax dollars are better spent on preventive care and improvements in

working conditions for health-care professionals.

In Alberta, a conservative province where pressure for private clinics

and insurance is strong, a nonprofit organization called Friends of

Medicare has sprung to the system's defense. It points up the inequities

in U.S. health care and calls the Canada's " the most moral and the most

cost-effective health care system there is in the world. " " Is your sick

grandchild more deserving of help than your neighbor's grandchild? " It asks.

Yes, says Dr. Day, if that grandchild needs urgent care and can't

get it at a government-funded hospital.

Day, an English-born arthroscopic surgeon, founded Cambie Surgery Center

in Vancouver, British Columbia — another province where private

surgeries are making inroads. He is also former president of the

Arthroscopy Association of North America in Orlando, Fla.

He says he got so frustrated at the long delays to book surgeries at the

public hospitals in Vancouver that he built his own private clinic. A

leading advocate for reform, he testified last June before the Supreme

Court in a landmark appeal against a Quebec ruling upholding limits on

private care and insurance.

Zeliotis told the court he suffered pain and became addicted to

painkillers during a yearlong wait for hip replacement surgery, and

should have been allowed to pay for faster service. His physician, Dr.

Jacques Chaoulli, said his patient's constitutional rights were violated

because Quebec couldn't provide the care he needed, but didn't offer him

the option of getting it privately.

A ruling on the case is expected any time.

If Zeliotis had been from the United States, China or neighboring

Ontario_ anywhere, in fact, except Quebec — he could have bought

treatment in a private Quebec clinic. That's one way the system

discourages the spread of private medicine — by limiting it to

nonresidents. But it can have curious results, says Day.

He tells of a patient who was informed by Ontario officials that since

Ontario couldn't help him, they would spend $35,000 to send him to the

United States for surgery.

Day said his Vancouver clinic could have done it for $12,000 but the

Ontario officials " do not philosophically support sending an individual

to a nongovernment clinic in Canada. "

Canadians can buy insurance for dental and eye care, physical and

chiropractic therapy, long-term nursing and prescriptions, among other

services. But according to experts on both sides of the debate, Canada

and North Korea (news - web sites) are the only countries with laws

banning the purchase of insurance for hospitalization or surgery.

Meanwhile, the average wait for surgical or specialist treatment is

nearly 18 weeks, up from 9.3 weeks in 1993, according to the Fraser

Institute, a right-wing public policy think tank in Vancouver. A Fraser

study last year said the average wait for an orthopedic surgeon was more

than nine months.

Prime Minister 's Liberal government has pledged $33.3

billion in new funding to improve health in all provinces and

territories over the next 10 years. But critics aren't impressed.

" It won't make a difference, " said Sally C. Pipes, a Canadian who heads

the conservative Pacific Research Institute in San Francisco. " They need

to break the system down, or open the system up to competition. "

Pipes is a big supporter of the Bush administration proposal to allow

Americans to divert some of their payroll taxes into medical savings

accounts. She claims the two-tiered system feared by Canadian liberals

already exists because those with connections jump to the head of the

medical queue and those who can afford it can get treated in the United

States.

" These are not wealthy people; these are people who are in pain, " said

Pipes.

Another watershed lawsuit was filed last year against 12 Quebec

hospitals on behalf of 10,000 breast-cancer patients in Quebec who had

to wait more than eight weeks for radiation therapy during a period

dating to October 1997.

One woman went to Turkey for treatment. Another, Johanne Lavoie, was

among several sent to the United States. Diagnosed with invasive breast

cancer in 1999, she traveled every week with her 5-year-old son to

Vermont, a four-hour bus ride.

" It was an inhuman thing to live through, " Lavoie told Toronto's Globe

and Mail.

" This is the first time someone has decided to attack the source of

problems — the waiting list, " said Montreal attorney Michel Savonitto,

who is representing the cancer victims. " We're lucky to have the system

we do in Canada, " he told the court. " But if we want to supply proper

care and commit to doing it, then we can't do it halfway. "

An estimated 4 million of Canada's 33 million people don't have family

physicians and more than 1 million are on waiting lists for treatment,

according to the Canadian Medical Association. Meanwhile, some 200

physicians head to the United States each year, attracted by lower taxes

and better working conditions. Canada has 2.1 physicians per 1,000

people, while Belgium has 3.9, according to the Organization for

Economic ation and Development.

The World Health Organization (news - web sites) in 2000 ranked France's

health system as the best, followed by Italy, Spain, Oman and Australia.

Canada came in 30th and the United States 37th.

Alberta Premier Ralph Klein is pushing what he calls " the third way " — a

fusion of Canadian Medicare and the system in France and many other

nations, where residents can supplement their government-funded health

care with private insurance and services.

But some Canadians worry even partial privatization would be damaging.

" My concern is that the private clinics would only serve to further

drain the scarce physician resources that we already have, " said Dr.

Saralaine stone, a 31-year-old family physician in Geraldton, a

papermill hamlet in northern Ontario.

" We first need to guarantee that everybody has access to quality health

care, " she said, " and we just don't have that. "

--

ne Holden, MS, RD

" Ask the Parkinson Dietitian " http://www.parkinson.org/

" Eat well, stay well with Parkinson's disease "

" Parkinson's disease: Guidelines for Medical Nutrition Therapy "

http://www.nutritionucanlivewith.com/

[Guest guest]

I think we have to admire a society that is at least trying to

provide healthcare for its citizens. Instead of critiquing, we should

be asking what we can do here to move in this direction.

Pam

> Wait times are always an issue. There are now government web sites

> that

> track all the wait times and that the public can access. Our cardiac

> surgery times are the lowest and thus we get more money for funding

> than

> slower centers. The old carrot or the stick motivation!

>

> CT scans or MRI wait time are now < 6 weeks - used to be 6 months.

> The

> system isn't perfect, but is improving.

>

> Marg

>

> carolscasey@... wrote:

>

>> Yeah if it is so amazing, why do people have to wait for up to 9

>> months to have a cardiac cath done and then if additional

>> procedures related to that cath results there is up to another 6

>> to 9 month wait?

>> Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

>>

>> [bULK] Thin

>>> Importance: Low

>>>

>>> Did any one watch it tonight?

>>>

>>> I thought it was one of the most important documentary ever made.

>>> However, I think the public needs more insight as for what coursing

>>> it, it is not only about wanting to be thin. These girls

>>> " substitute "

>>> with eating disorders for many things in their lives (not all to be

>>> reviled on TV, obviously) but we need the public to know they are

>>> not

>>> " jus crazy " or have wrong body image. Its not that simple.

>>> (Dahhhhhh... . we all know that. I am not inventing any wheals)

>>> Still - the program was excellent.

>>> I thought the psychologist didn't dig in enough (hopefully, and most

>>> likely, only in front of the camera) as for the reasons they have

>>> eating disorder.

>>> and since insurance won't cover - it's another major problem. I was

>>> thinking that I would like to volunteer, to cut down the insurance

>>> costs, but I believe I need special training to be part of their

>>> team.

>>>

>>>

[Guest guest]

The only way to provide free services for the population is if everyone that

works pays much higher taxes. Nothing is free except in socialist and communist

societies. Even then, someone is paying the bill, since the money has to come

from somewhere. Always there are those that pay more than their fair share.

Digna

[bULK] Thin

>>> Importance: Low

>>>

>>> Did any one watch it tonight?

>>>

>>> I thought it was one of the most important documentary ever made.

>>> However, I think the public needs more insight as for what coursing

>>> it, it is not only about wanting to be thin. These girls

>>> " substitute "

>>> with eating disorders for many things in their lives (not all to be

>>> reviled on TV, obviously) but we need the public to know they are

>>> not

>>> " jus crazy " or have wrong body image. Its not that simple.

>>> (Dahhhhhh... . we all know that. I am not inventing any wheals)

>>> Still - the program was excellent.

>>> I thought the psychologist didn't dig in enough (hopefully, and most

>>> likely, only in front of the camera) as for the reasons they have

>>> eating disorder.

>>> and since insurance won't cover - it's another major problem. I was

>>> thinking that I would like to volunteer, to cut down the insurance

>>> costs, but I believe I need special training to be part of their

>>> team.

>>>

>>>

[Guest guest]

My thoughts exactly... I guess that's what I was trying to originally say.

[bULK] Thin

>>> Importance: Low

>>>

>>> Did any one watch it tonight?

>>>

>>> I thought it was one of the most important documentary ever made.

>>> However, I think the public needs more insight as for what coursing

>>> it, it is not only about wanting to be thin. These girls

>>> " substitute "

>>> with eating disorders for many things in their lives (not all to be

>>> reviled on TV, obviously) but we need the public to know they are

>>> not

>>> " jus crazy " or have wrong body image. Its not that simple.

>>> (Dahhhhhh... . we all know that. I am not inventing any wheals)

>>> Still - the program was excellent.

>>> I thought the psychologist didn't dig in enough (hopefully, and most

>>> likely, only in front of the camera) as for the reasons they have

>>> eating disorder.

>>> and since insurance won't cover - it's another major problem. I was

>>> thinking that I would like to volunteer, to cut down the insurance

>>> costs, but I believe I need special training to be part of their

>>> team.

>>>

>>>

[Guest guest]

I am quite proud that I pay more than others, My taxes are 50% of my

income - many low income Canadians pay no taxes. I believe that

everyone needs universal health care and I don't mind helping to pay

for it.

Now more of my tax dollars are going for health promotion and the

management of chronic diseases. This model has been piloted in BC and

now in Ontario. We have family health teams, where there are doctors,

dietitians, mental health therapists, pharmacist, nurse educators etc -

everything is free.

By the way Canada is a democracy, not a socialist society.

Now, please d*o not* take my words as inflammatory as I like to live and

let live. Everyone likes something different, please I do stand up for

free medical care.

Marg

Digna Cassens wrote:

> The only way to provide free services for the population is if

> everyone that works pays much higher taxes. Nothing is free except in

> socialist and communist societies. Even then, someone is paying the

> bill, since the money has to come from somewhere. Always there are

> those that pay more than their fair share. Digna

>

> [bULK] Thin

> >>> Importance: Low

> >>>

> >>> Did any one watch it tonight?

> >>>

> >>> I thought it was one of the most important documentary ever made.

> >>> However, I think the public needs more insight as for what coursing

> >>> it, it is not only about wanting to be thin. These girls

> >>> " substitute "

> >>> with eating disorders for many things in their lives (not all to be

> >>> reviled on TV, obviously) but we need the public to know they are

> >>> not

> >>> " jus crazy " or have wrong body image. Its not that simple.

> >>> (Dahhhhhh... . we all know that. I am not inventing any wheals)

> >>> Still - the program was excellent.

> >>> I thought the psychologist didn't dig in enough (hopefully, and most

> >>> likely, only in front of the camera) as for the reasons they have

> >>> eating disorder.

> >>> and since insurance won't cover - it's another major problem. I was

> >>> thinking that I would like to volunteer, to cut down the insurance

> >>> costs, but I believe I need special training to be part of their

> >>> team.

> >>>

> >>>