Guest guest Posted July 14, 2006 Report Posted July 14, 2006 Hi, I'm not sure it would matter if you remembered everything during an argument with nada because no matter what you say it will probably get twisted around and used against you anyway. There is no way to win an argument with a person who distorts the truth, uses their words as weapons and has no interest/capability to engage in a rational conversation. Their intent, or certainly the end result, is to hurt, degrade and destroy. It may be ptsd kicking in, fight or flight, and it is hard to think straight when it feels like the world is spinning in opposite directions at once. I know that feeling, like a whirlwind, and it is almost impossible to be fully present and coherent, let alone remember the transcript of an awful exchange, while in that state. Who wants to remember what nada said anyway? It's usually the same message every time: you are bad, you are wrong, I am good and I am right. I don't have any suggestions other than try and stay away from people who attack you. I am sure there are others on this board who can offer some practical ideas but I tried everything with nada and she still got to me and my feeling is get away from toxic, hurtful people if at all possible. And if one isn't ready for that, limit the time spent with them because encounters rarely end without feeling attacked, drained, angry, confused and questioning ones worthiness. If in your other relationships this is a problem, and you feel safe enough with the person, you might consider telling them that you have a tendency to shut down while in the throes of an argument or when threatened/triggered. A person who is loving and caring should understand and would not be trying to use what you can't remember against you in the first place. Sometimes we KO's can have fleas that mimick bp behavior and that can be terrifying and if that has entered your mind remember that borderlines tend to distort the truth and mis-remember situations to punish others and they appear incapable of EVER admitting they were wrong. I just thought I would mention that because I remember when I first became aware of some of my fleas, even though my behaviors were different from nadas in intent, it absolutely horrified me that I might be acting out her behaviors in even a remote way. > > Hi all, very sorry if this post appears on the boards more than once, I've been having loads > of problems with the internet today!! > > Any thoughts on how to retain your own version of events when a BP mother rants > about past events and there is a grain of truth to what she says? > > This is a constant battle for me. I learnt from a very young age to 'block out' her rages so > that the pain could not destroy me. It was my coping mechanism and it worked during the > bad times and enabled me to smile and continue life without holding on to destructive > anger and grief. There were times when I probably did do things wrong (hey, IÕm human) > but they seldom warranted the degree of vicious hostility I received. I also developed this > strategy to help myself get through the times when she would be blind drunk and attack > me, but would remember nothing the next day and I had to behave as if nothing had > happened in the interests of keeping the peace. > > However, a result of this coping mechanism is that I have great difficulty remembering the > details of things. I cannot for instance remember the details of a fight or conversation > when stressed and this gets me into trouble over and over again. My emotions kick in and > muddle my memory and all I can think about is how to get myself away from this person > and make > them stop hurting me. > > If (as she has done recently) she brings up things I have 'done wrong' in the past, I am > defenseless to her accusations because I can't remember exactly what the truth was. All I > am left with is the painful feelings and emotions, but these don't amount to 'defensible > evidence'. > Even if pigs fly and I do remember a sequence of events correctly it doesn't matter because > she either accuses me of being a liar or having a selective memory Ð or she rewrites > history > to fit with her version of things before ÔremindingÕ me, and I am forced to capitulate > because > I have no alternative. > > These things are utterly demoralizing to the point that I start to question my own > reliability and sanity. This has unfortunately spilt over into my other relationships and has > left me feeling powerless and frustrated on many occasions. I know in my head and heart > that what I am accused of is WRONG and unfair, but I am unable to defend myself because > I have blocked out the details. It's a Catch-22. > > My mother is highly intelligent and can actually be very empathetic and kind. There are > times when she can be more perceptive than anyone I know. It would be so much easier if > she was just plain ÔcrazyÕ Ð at least then I wouldnÕt doubt myself in the bad times. The > frustration is that there ARE times when logic prevails and I can win the day with her, but > when I am unable to remember enough to throw a rational argument at her, it leaves me > flailing. I become pathetic and placating and apologise for all the hurt IÕve caused HER. > > Has anyone out there experienced this panic-based ÔamnesiaÕ and how did you turn > it around so that you felt more power in your dealings with your BP? > > Having read several posts, I agree that you can feel powerless in the face of BP > manipulation in the present if your coping mechanisms come from the past/childhood. In > the throes of a 'situation' you may panic and be unable to react rationally. You may revert > to that frightened child. > > If present problems with a BP cause you to relive old pain as well as new pain, but you are > unable to remember enough of the details of past incidents to understand them and heal > yourself, then how do you move forward? How do you gain the strength you need to cope > in the present? > > Pia > Quote
Guest guest Posted July 14, 2006 Report Posted July 14, 2006 , Thanks for the great reminders. I can relate to and agree with EVerything you said. One Non-BP Recovering Man --- cre8within wrote: > Hi, > > I'm not sure it would matter if you remembered everything during an > argument with nada because no matter what you say it will probably > get twisted around and used against you anyway. There is no way to > win an argument with a person who distorts the truth, uses their > words as weapons and has no interest/capability to engage in a > rational conversation. > > Their intent, or certainly the end result, is to hurt, degrade and > destroy. > > It may be ptsd kicking in, fight or flight, and it is hard to think > straight when it feels like the world is spinning in opposite > directions at once. I know that feeling, like a whirlwind, and it is > almost impossible to be fully present and coherent, let alone > remember the transcript of an awful exchange, while in that state. > Who wants to remember what nada said anyway? It's usually the same > message every time: you are bad, you are wrong, I am good and I am > right. > > I don't have any suggestions other than try and stay away from > people who attack you. I am sure there are others on this board who > can offer some practical ideas but I tried everything with nada and > she still got to me and my feeling is get away from toxic, hurtful > people if at all possible. > > And if one isn't ready for that, limit the time spent with them > because encounters rarely end without feeling attacked, drained, > angry, confused and questioning ones worthiness. > > If in your other relationships this is a problem, and you feel safe > enough with the person, you might consider telling them that you > have a tendency to shut down while in the throes of an argument or > when threatened/triggered. > > A person who is loving and caring should understand and would not be > trying to use what you can't remember against you in the first > place. > > Sometimes we KO's can have fleas that mimick bp behavior and that > can be terrifying and if that has entered your mind remember that > borderlines tend to distort the truth and mis-remember situations to > punish others and they appear incapable of EVER admitting they were > wrong. > > I just thought I would mention that because I remember when I first > became aware of some of my fleas, even though my behaviors were > different from nadas in intent, it absolutely horrified me that I > might be acting out her behaviors in even a remote way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi all, very sorry if this post appears on the boards more than > once, I've been having loads > > of problems with the internet today!! > > > > Any thoughts on how to retain your own version of events when a BP > mother rants > > about past events and there is a grain of truth to what she says? > > > > This is a constant battle for me. I learnt from a very young age > to 'block out' her rages so > > that the pain could not destroy me. It was my coping mechanism and > it worked during the > > bad times and enabled me to smile and continue life without > holding on to destructive > > anger and grief. There were times when I probably did do things > wrong (hey, IÕm human) > > but they seldom warranted the degree of vicious hostility I > received. I also developed this > > strategy to help myself get through the times when she would be > blind drunk and attack > > me, but would remember nothing the next day and I had to behave as > if nothing had > > happened in the interests of keeping the peace. > > > > However, a result of this coping mechanism is that I have great > difficulty remembering the > > details of things. I cannot for instance remember the details of a > fight or conversation > > when stressed and this gets me into trouble over and over again. > My emotions kick in and > > muddle my memory and all I can think about is how to get myself > away from this person > > and make > > them stop hurting me. > > > > If (as she has done recently) she brings up things I have 'done > wrong' in the past, I am > > defenseless to her accusations because I can't remember exactly > what the truth was. All I > > am left with is the painful feelings and emotions, but these don't > amount to 'defensible > > evidence'. > > Even if pigs fly and I do remember a sequence of events correctly > it doesn't matter because > > she either accuses me of being a liar or having a selective memory > Ð or she rewrites > > history > > to fit with her version of things before ÔremindingÕ me, and I am > forced to capitulate > > because > > I have no alternative. > > > > These things are utterly demoralizing to the point that I start to > question my own > > reliability and sanity. This has unfortunately spilt over into my > other relationships and has > > left me feeling powerless and frustrated on many occasions. I know > in my head and heart > > that what I am accused of is WRONG and unfair, but I am unable to > defend myself because > > I have blocked out the details. It's a Catch-22. > > > > My mother is highly intelligent and can actually be very > empathetic and kind. There are > > times when she can be more perceptive than anyone I know. It would > be so much easier if > > she was just plain ÔcrazyÕ Ð at least then I wouldnÕt doubt myself > in the bad times. The > > frustration is that there ARE times when logic prevails and I can > win the day with her, but > > when I am unable to remember enough to throw a rational argument > at her, it leaves me > > flailing. I become pathetic and placating and apologise for all > the hurt IÕve caused HER. > > > > Has anyone out there experienced this panic-based ÔamnesiaÕ and > how did you turn > > it around so that you felt more power in your dealings with your > BP? > > > > Having read several posts, I agree that you can feel powerless in > the face of BP > > manipulation in the present if your coping mechanisms come from > the past/childhood. In > > the throes of a 'situation' you may panic and be unable to react > rationally. You may revert > > to that frightened child. > > > > If present problems with a BP cause you to relive old pain as well > as new pain, but you are > > unable to remember enough of the details of past incidents to > understand them and heal > > yourself, then how do you move forward? How do you gain the > strength you need to cope > > in the present? > > > > Pia > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ Quote
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2006 Report Posted July 15, 2006 Dear Pia, After reading your post, I see three different things that you are dealing with. One - how do you remember what happened in the past; two - how do you defend yourself against false, or partially false, accusations; three - how do you heal from a past you can't remember. All these three points are related. As you mentioned, new events will also trigger bad feelings from those old event - which you aren't able to remember! Based on what has worked for me in the past, here is how I would handle this situation. I would start with the present and work backwards into the past. I would decide on something that I would say when the accusations are being made. This is a boundary issue. And this will be difficult, cause when you set a boundary with a BPD, they will try even harder for awhile to break down that boundary. In the case of your nada, I don't know if it would be better to tell her about this in advance, or wait until she starts this type of conversation. Do what you think would be best for you (not for her!). In the case of my own nada, I would have told her at a time when she wasn't in a tirade. I would advise her that I have decided not to get involved in these types of blaming and defending conversations any more, and that if she brings up these things again I will leave. (I would make sure that I could always have a way to get away when I am with nada.) Now, I have made that simplified. When we first set up a boundary with a nada, we have to be very sure of what we want to say, and then just stick to it, no matter what. I call it 'putting blinders on'. You have to be even more stubborn than a nada on this one. Once you have made up your mind on your boundary and how you will state it, don't listen to any arguments against it, don't try to reason with anyone about it. It is your boundary, you have every right to make it exactly like you want it. Don't let anyone try to change it. She doesn't have to like it, and there is no use even expecting her to understand it. She won't understand it - the only thing she understands is what she wants to get her own needs met. Setting such a boundary will eliminate the need to defend yourself. You have set up conditions so that you don't even have to be in a position to defend yourself. (And defending only works when you are dealing with reasonable, rational people, not with a BPD.) Now, here is how this will help in the other areas as well. First, if you set a boundary that prevents nada from saying things that upset you, you will have prevented her from hurting you in the present and that prevents a present hurt from causing you to relive those older hurts. Then, as you have less pain to deal with right now, you can take some of that energy and use it to focus on creating and maintaining a happy present life. That happiness that you are creating gives you the strength to deal with older issues. And when you are in a less stressful environment, some of those older issues will start to surface. (Yep, there will still be pain, but you will be better able to deal with it.) The biggest hurdle is taking those first steps in setting boundaries. We have been so conditioned to let our nadas and fadas completely disregard our own needs. I can remember the terror I felt when I was first establishing my boundaries. It was almost paralyzing. The only thing that was worse was the devastation I felt over being completely annihilated if I did not establish those boundaries. Take care of yourself, Sylvia > > Hi all, very sorry if this post appears on the boards more than once, I've been having loads > of problems with the internet today!! > > Any thoughts on how to retain your own version of events when a BP mother rants > about past events and there is a grain of truth to what she says? > > This is a constant battle for me. I learnt from a very young age to 'block out' her rages so > that the pain could not destroy me. It was my coping mechanism and it worked during the > bad times and enabled me to smile and continue life without holding on to destructive > anger and grief. There were times when I probably did do things wrong (hey, IÕm human) > but they seldom warranted the degree of vicious hostility I received. I also developed this > strategy to help myself get through the times when she would be blind drunk and attack > me, but would remember nothing the next day and I had to behave as if nothing had > happened in the interests of keeping the peace. > > However, a result of this coping mechanism is that I have great difficulty remembering the > details of things. I cannot for instance remember the details of a fight or conversation > when stressed and this gets me into trouble over and over again. My emotions kick in and > muddle my memory and all I can think about is how to get myself away from this person > and make > them stop hurting me. > > If (as she has done recently) she brings up things I have 'done wrong' in the past, I am > defenseless to her accusations because I can't remember exactly what the truth was. All I > am left with is the painful feelings and emotions, but these don't amount to 'defensible > evidence'. > Even if pigs fly and I do remember a sequence of events correctly it doesn't matter because > she either accuses me of being a liar or having a selective memory Ð or she rewrites > history > to fit with her version of things before ÔremindingÕ me, and I am forced to capitulate > because > I have no alternative. > > These things are utterly demoralizing to the point that I start to question my own > reliability and sanity. This has unfortunately spilt over into my other relationships and has > left me feeling powerless and frustrated on many occasions. I know in my head and heart > that what I am accused of is WRONG and unfair, but I am unable to defend myself because > I have blocked out the details. It's a Catch-22. > > My mother is highly intelligent and can actually be very empathetic and kind. There are > times when she can be more perceptive than anyone I know. It would be so much easier if > she was just plain ÔcrazyÕ Ð at least then I wouldnÕt doubt myself in the bad times. The > frustration is that there ARE times when logic prevails and I can win the day with her, but > when I am unable to remember enough to throw a rational argument at her, it leaves me > flailing. I become pathetic and placating and apologise for all the hurt IÕve caused HER. > > Has anyone out there experienced this panic-based ÔamnesiaÕ and how did you turn > it around so that you felt more power in your dealings with your BP? > > Having read several posts, I agree that you can feel powerless in the face of BP > manipulation in the present if your coping mechanisms come from the past/childhood. In > the throes of a 'situation' you may panic and be unable to react rationally. You may revert > to that frightened child. > > If present problems with a BP cause you to relive old pain as well as new pain, but you are > unable to remember enough of the details of past incidents to understand them and heal > yourself, then how do you move forward? How do you gain the strength you need to cope > in the present? > > Pia > Quote
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2006 Report Posted July 16, 2006 Dear Pia: I have been in situations like that for the better part of my life. It is very frustrating, especially when you know they're twisting things. My solution was to write down the details shortly after something happened. That way, I could go over it again later, when I was calmer, and analyze it. I was usually looking for things like what I'd said to trigger my NADA or things I could try next time to help her calm down, but I think you might derive different benefits. Good Luck! Quote
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2006 Report Posted July 16, 2006 Hi Sylvia, Thanks for your wise words. You hit the nail on the head when you mentioned feeling terror at the outset of setting boundaries. That's how I feel! And also true is that the only thing worse is not setting them and falling into old patterns of behaviour. I need to work out how to stick to my position without breaking. Your advice has got me thinking. Thank you! > > > > Hi all, very sorry if this post appears on the boards more than > once, I've been having loads > > of problems with the internet today!! > > > > Any thoughts on how to retain your own version of events when a BP > mother rants > > about past events and there is a grain of truth to what she says? > > > > This is a constant battle for me. I learnt from a very young age > to 'block out' her rages so > > that the pain could not destroy me. It was my coping mechanism and > it worked during the > > bad times and enabled me to smile and continue life without > holding on to destructive > > anger and grief. There were times when I probably did do things > wrong (hey, IÕm human) > > but they seldom warranted the degree of vicious hostility I > received. I also developed this > > strategy to help myself get through the times when she would be > blind drunk and attack > > me, but would remember nothing the next day and I had to behave as > if nothing had > > happened in the interests of keeping the peace. > > > > However, a result of this coping mechanism is that I have great > difficulty remembering the > > details of things. I cannot for instance remember the details of a > fight or conversation > > when stressed and this gets me into trouble over and over again. > My emotions kick in and > > muddle my memory and all I can think about is how to get myself > away from this person > > and make > > them stop hurting me. > > > > If (as she has done recently) she brings up things I have 'done > wrong' in the past, I am > > defenseless to her accusations because I can't remember exactly > what the truth was. All I > > am left with is the painful feelings and emotions, but these don't > amount to 'defensible > > evidence'. > > Even if pigs fly and I do remember a sequence of events correctly > it doesn't matter because > > she either accuses me of being a liar or having a selective memory > Ð or she rewrites > > history > > to fit with her version of things before ÔremindingÕ me, and I am > forced to capitulate > > because > > I have no alternative. > > > > These things are utterly demoralizing to the point that I start to > question my own > > reliability and sanity. This has unfortunately spilt over into my > other relationships and has > > left me feeling powerless and frustrated on many occasions. I know > in my head and heart > > that what I am accused of is WRONG and unfair, but I am unable to > defend myself because > > I have blocked out the details. It's a Catch-22. > > > > My mother is highly intelligent and can actually be very > empathetic and kind. There are > > times when she can be more perceptive than anyone I know. It would > be so much easier if > > she was just plain ÔcrazyÕ Ð at least then I wouldnÕt doubt myself > in the bad times. The > > frustration is that there ARE times when logic prevails and I can > win the day with her, but > > when I am unable to remember enough to throw a rational argument > at her, it leaves me > > flailing. I become pathetic and placating and apologise for all > the hurt IÕve caused HER. > > > > Has anyone out there experienced this panic-based ÔamnesiaÕ and > how did you turn > > it around so that you felt more power in your dealings with your > BP? > > > > Having read several posts, I agree that you can feel powerless in > the face of BP > > manipulation in the present if your coping mechanisms come from > the past/childhood. In > > the throes of a 'situation' you may panic and be unable to react > rationally. You may revert > > to that frightened child. > > > > If present problems with a BP cause you to relive old pain as well > as new pain, but you are > > unable to remember enough of the details of past incidents to > understand them and heal > > yourself, then how do you move forward? How do you gain the > strength you need to cope > > in the present? > > > > Pia > > > Quote
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