Re: What do you guys think? (very long)

[Guest guest]

Hey! I just realized that part of my problem is that I feel I have to

" stuff " my feeling with her, like with nada. I know I can never say

to her " I think there's no excuse for having an affair. I thought you

had more integrity than that. " Or am I just a jackass for thinking that?

[Guest guest]

I'd feel as bewildered as you do right now. You're probably feeling

as confused and betrayed as her husband.

It sounds as if you were led down the fantasy path just like

everybody else in her life. She wasn't really intimate with anyone -

- she was just playing the part. Almost sociopathic, really.

I am sorry you're sustaining this loss, but if it were me, I'd wash

my hands of the whole thing. She's too secretive, too closed off --

unavailable for a true relationship -- even a friendship. You've

given it all you could -- even showed compassion by asking " Have I

done something? " . You really have showed more care for the

relationship than she has. Her words are empty -- her actions tell

you more.

I'd feel the same way you do. In a way, you've been " scammed " .

She's not letting you in. She probably never let her husband in. I

feel sorry for him, too. He could have been spending the last 15

years building a history and a life with a caring wife who loved

him. Instead, he got a very selfish, closed-off, unavailable and

unrepentant, stubborn narcissist. She seems all about the outward

signs of intimacy, while never lifting a finger to build TRUE

intimacy.

-Kyla

>

> I have this situation with a friendship that I am still trying to

sort

> out in my head. This is sort of off topic, as it's not about a

BPD in

> my life, but I'm wondering if my experience with this is KO

related,

> and what you guys think of it.

>

> I met 8 years ago, and we seemed to become fast friends. She

> was very friendly and positive and nice (very unlike my

> family/childhood experience). She was living with her parents at

28,

> had never moved out and never intended to move out. She said they

> were " roomies " and they just enjoyed one another's company. She

told

> me she had a sister and a brother.

>

> She told me very little about her problems over the years, so I

> thought she did not have any. When I would see her family, her mom

> was immediately very warm and friendly, like 's friends were

her

> friends. I was uncomfortable with the over-the-top-ness of

this " I'm

> so happy to see you, big hug, big smile " thing, I guess as I'm just

> too cynical, but I got used to it.

>

> Maybe 3 years into our friendship, she got married, and I remember

> feeling a little confused about our relationship...like were we

close

> enough that I would be invited to her wedding? I was invited, and

> over the years I grew to trust the things she said to me, like

that I

> was " part of the family " and part of her " inner circle " . She was

the

> best friend a person could ever ask for in many ways. A great

> listener, there when you needed her. I told her everything, and

she

> kept it surface with me, but I did not realize she was doing that.

>

> Then, 7 years in, she tells me she has a brother with Downs, and he

> will be at Thanksgiving dinner at her house (which I've been going

to

> for years). He lives in a group home. He's home every Christmas,

and

> every Christmas she has told me about her day, carefully omitting

this

> brother, for 7 years. She only told me, apparently, because for

some

> reason, he was going to be there for Thanksgiving. I felt kind of

> hurt by this.

>

> The last two years were rough for me in regards to her. She was

> working on her first political campaign and was very busy. So I

did

> what I do when someone is busy, and I backed off. She also became

> snippy with me on occasion, although she was completely oblivious

to

> this (as she is apparently really good at putting on a happy

face).

> Then her mom became less happy to see me. Her best friend was also

> snippy with me. I felt an energy shift one night at dinner, and

in my

> perception, things never went back to normal (ahhh...the KO

ability to

> detect mood changes...).

>

> I tried to blow it off and not take it personally, but I did email

her

> and ask her if she was mad at me. She wrote back of course not,

let's

> get together more often. I knew something was wrong, so I thought

> " great, she is just lying to avoid a confrontation. " So I did not

> want to burden her by cornering her during this busy time in her

life,

> so I backed off more. And I grieved on my own.

>

> After 18 months of this, she tells me she's getting a divorce. I

ask

> why and she says she's just not feeling it. He has already moved

out

> when she tells me this. She says, " I told him I just wasn't

feeling

> it anymore and he wants to know why and I say I just don't, so he

kept

> me up all night making me talk about it and then my alarm went off

and

> I had to go to work. Oh great. Now I've had no sleep. Thanks a

lot.

> I mean, how selfish can you be??? "

>

> I'm thinking when you end a 15 year relationship, your partner

> deserves to talk about it until he's satisfied, and that's not

> selfish. She could have taken the day off to sleep. The campaign

> would not have crumbled.

>

> So months later she says we have to go for a drink so she can tell

me

> the real reason for her divorce. At this point, I'm tired of the

> secrets and I don't know why we're still friends, but I go.

>

> I really held in high esteem. I thought she had the most

> integrity of anyone I knew. I envied her tight family, and her

> optimism and gaggle of friends.

>

> Turns out she was having an affair with a woman for *two years* and

> that was the reason for the divorce. She's with a different woman

> now. So when her husband made her stay up all night, he was

probably

> pulling a lot of crap out of her that she probably wouldn't fess up

> to, dragging it on for hours. Her mother *begged* her not to leave

> the husband, because *she* loved him as part of the family. I

don't

> know if she wanted her to just never tell him about the affair or

what.

>

> So I said, " Wow, I wish you had told me something was up. I

thought

> you were mad at me for 2 years. " She smiles and exclaims

> semi-excitedly " you're the 5th person who's said that! " And then

it's

> la-ti-da on to the next topic.

>

> In the middle of this disclosure, I ask her if she's had lesbian

> experiences before and she just stares at me. She doesn't want to

> answer. And that is her right. I guess I had an expectation that

8

> years of being " close friends " would involve more disclosure and

> trust, but I guess that is just not her. Or just not her with me.

>

> So she thinks I'm an ass because I'm not " cutting her slack " . I

> should cut her some slack for all that she's been through (but I'm

> like, you PUT yourself through that...) I should not be upset over

> the snippiness and fake smiles and the feeling that something was

> wrong. I asked her if she was mad at me and she said no...she

didn't lie.

>

> I feel now like I just don't know her, and I never will.

Whenever I

> think about calling her again (we're not talking now), I think

what is

> the point? It's all fake. It's not like I expected her to tell me

> she was having an affair, but the affair made me realize how

little I

> really know her. And it seems she's walking away from this with

zero

> self awareness. She seems to think that it was perfectly okay for

her

> to take all the time she needed to mess with the idea of being gay

> (which she says she is not, BTW), on her husband's clock. And she

> can't understand why he won't speak to her now, but still meets her

> parent for dinner on occasion.

>

> Okay, what really bugs me about this too is that her husband had a

> family sort of like mine, not demonstrative, and she *trained* him

to

> look happy to see her every time he saw her and make a big deal

out of

> it, like her mom does. She actually broke up with him because he

> wasn't doing this. She made him, for the next 10 years, behave in

the

> way she thought was " loving " , yet she did not return the favor.

It's

> so fake!

>

> I know it is up to her how much of herself she wants to share with

> someone. Every time I think of calling her I imagine spending the

> rest of my life trying to " fake it " with her.

>

> Then I think, I don't have a lot of friends. Maybe I'm being

too....I

> don't know what.

>

> How would you guys feel in this situation.

>

> -Deanna

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Deanna,

Just quickly and I'm sorry for such a short answer to what is a complex

situation: you're not wrong for how you feel, it's your actions that matter. I

think that one first step might be to just take a step back and think things

over, alone, for a while. Detachment may provide more enlightenment about the

friendship and whether or not you want to continue it.

Also, you and your friend can agree to disagree on issues (even things like

fidelity); what is important is how your relationship works for you.

is

---------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

Heck no! You're NOT wrong for having certain " dealbreaker " issues

as part of your inner being.

I, too, would not want anything to do with someone who would conduct

an affair. My compassion would be for the wife/husband being

cheated on, and the children who will pay the price for the broken

home.

That's a dealbreaker for me, too. I am married and I value the vows

of marriage. For someone to be a party to a family's destruction --

to be a willing participant in a hurtful deception. Sorry, I'm not

interested in ANY association with them.

I stand with you on that.

{hugs}

Kyla

>

> Hey! I just realized that part of my problem is that I feel I

have to

> " stuff " my feeling with her, like with nada. I know I can never

say

> to her " I think there's no excuse for having an affair. I thought

you

> had more integrity than that. " Or am I just a jackass for

thinking that?

>

[Guest guest]

Ugh. A friend of mine thinks I am being judgmental of her. And I

suppose I am. But if I met someone today, and she told me she was in

the middle of a 2 year affair, I wouldn't want to develop a friendship

with her.

Also, shortly after I met her, her sister broke up with her boyfriend

for cheating. You can not imagine the carrying on did about

what an ass this guy was and how much she hated him now and how the

whole family hated him and how could he do that and blah blah blah...

This whole thing made me step back and look at her family dynamic.

They had painted themselves to be this happy, close-knit group.

lives with them (at 37) because she *wants* to.

NOW I'm thinking she is staying there so mom does not have to be alone

with this man she doesn't like. This dude has not one mean bone in

his body, but I have seen and her mom gang up on him for

something as little as him not hearing what they asked him to do (he's

74, in fabulous shape, but losing his hearing). " Oh never mind! "

mom'll say and dad'll say " What? " and 'll say " oh forget it, he

can't hear you. " They are mean enough to him that I find it embarrassing.

That's another thing. made her husband go to church services at

Christmas, because it was important to her father. In the mean time,

she yells at him and treats him with little respect. It's like, " you

have to do this thing that looks nice " but in reality, she is a jerk

to dad.

And what kind of a mom would beg her daughter to not leave her husband

when she is having a lesbian affair? How selfish is *that*?

When this all ended, tells me that nobody ever liked (her

affair chick) anyway. *I* did! And her whole family and friends have

rallied around her to say what a jerk was. Um, you're having an

affair with this woman, forcing her to keep it hidden while you use

her to figure out what you want for 2 years, it ends and now SHE is

the jerk? Are you kidding? It's like the family has agreed to be so

loyal to her, that they do it completely beyond reason. This behavior

is all so weird to me! I think it is the exact polar opposite of my

family. I thought it was opposite in a good way. Now I realize there

is a middle ground...

Thanks so much for listening, and for your input.

I'm really trying to figure out what specifically about this is

triggering me.

Oh, and we've had time. We haven't spoken in 5 months.

-Deanna

> >

> > Hey! I just realized that part of my problem is that I feel I

> have to

> > " stuff " my feeling with her, like with nada. I know I can never

> say

> > to her " I think there's no excuse for having an affair. I thought

> you

> > had more integrity than that. " Or am I just a jackass for

> thinking that?

> >

>

[Guest guest]

<< " A friend of mine thinks I am being judgmental of her. " >>

In my opinion, " judgemental " has been painted with this broad brush

as being " bad " . I wouldn't blithely just accept everything under

the sun for fear of being labeled " judgemental " by someone. I draw

the line at adultery. (among other things!)

It's not bad to discern whether or not you want to spend your

valuable time with someone whose behavior you find abhorrent to your

own values.

That's not being " judgemental " -- that's discerning whether or not

they're people you want to spend time with.

There's a difference. If someone was a serial adulterer, or a meth

addict, or you name the behavior -- I might try to help if they're a

close friend, but if they're determined to live that lifestyle, I'm

taking my option to distance myself.

If the popular culture wants to brand me " judgemental " -- I could

care less. I've taught my kids this, too. If they see behaviors in

friends that they know they shouldn't be associated with, get away

from them. If you want to help, you can help from a distance,

enlist your parents. One is not required to be friends with someone

simply on the fear of being labeled judgemental. We have the right

to judge with whom and where we'll spend our time, based on people's

behaviors.

Oh, and that family sounds like they're all about appearances.

-Kyla

> > >

> > > Hey! I just realized that part of my problem is that I feel I

> > have to

> > > " stuff " my feeling with her, like with nada. I know I can

never

> > say

> > > to her " I think there's no excuse for having an affair. I

thought

> > you

> > > had more integrity than that. " Or am I just a jackass for

> > thinking that?

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Deanna, would youu mind if I were a little judgmental?

This " friend " doesn't sound right in the head.

Really. I agree with all the responses you've received so far about

the situation, but I also wanted to add that, while reading your posts

about it, my " not quite sane " red flag went straight up. Sociopath,

maybe, but frankly she sounds borderline to me!

I think we KO's need to take serously the possibility that our

being--until recently--unconscious KO's had the effect of allowing

people into our orbit with much more serous issues than most people

would tolerate. I'm sure there is some danger in learning about BPD

and then wanting to apply that diagnosis to everyone you've ever had

issues with; but the truth is, I think KO's DO meet more borderlines

and get involved with them than most people do. I think it happens to

push us to wake up to the original issue. But once we do that, once we

learn about BPD and its effects on us, we're left with people in our

lives that look increasingly unhealthy to us.

While reading your post, I got the unshakeable feeling that there's

something wrong with your friend beyond " bad behavior " . It's scary for

me to type that, I feel like I'm accusing someone of what we all know

is a very bad state of mind. But I have to be honest.

Your comment that, if you met her now you wouldn't want to be friends,

is all it takes. Perhaps your values have changed for the better, or

perhaps it's all the info coming out about the " friendship " and its

fakeness...doesn't make a difference. I think in your heart you've

decided that the friendship was false and are trying to justify

letting it go. In my opinion, you have that justification and then

some. That " friend " sounds nutty, oblivious, damaging to the people

around her, and maladjusted. You're right to get out.

Love always,

Vi

> > >

> > > Hey! I just realized that part of my problem is that I feel I

> > have to

> > > " stuff " my feeling with her, like with nada. I know I can never

> > say

> > > to her " I think there's no excuse for having an affair. I thought

> > you

> > > had more integrity than that. " Or am I just a jackass for

> > thinking that?

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

This whole thing really did rock my world. My friend Dennis, his

world was rocked too, though he was much less " close " with her than I

(thought I) was.

I thought she had this idyllic life and this idyllic family, and it

just looks now like it was all a sham. And the word you used,

oblivious, I think you are really on to something. When I asked her

how this affair with came to a head, she refused to answer. She

wouldn't tell me how she came about divorcing the husband. When I

asked her why everyone hates now (they supposedly came out and

said they never liked her, but now they hate her) she just said, " she

said some VERY mean things. " And would not elaborate.

I'm thinking maybe told the hubby the affair was happening, as

she'd had enough of being in the wings. The mean things? Probably

all true: involving apron strings, selfishness, phoniness, jerking her

around, etc.

What really pissed me off about the whole deal was how she made sure

her whole life was plotted out before she cut the husband loose.

Based on things she said, I got the impression that the woman she got

with after was still involved when they started up. She made

sure she had everything just as she wanted it before letting husband

loose, then got all bent out of shape that he wanted to discuss it.

She also commented that night she came out to me about how irked she

is that she is " stuck with " the brand new car her hubby bought. I

guess they determined he could not afford it as his career is very

new. But she let him buy it one year into her affair. And it's a

great car, a Prius, so WTF is her problem?

I always felt around her like I was such a MESS, with the screwed up

family and the turbulent emotions. It turns out she was just as bad

or worse, but she was faking it like crazy.

She's really nothing like my mom the hermit, but she is definitely

enmeshed with her mom, and obviously not in a healthy way. So all

that stuff with her mom not being the same towards me...that was not

my imagination, as mom was mad and sulking about the affair.

And you're right, she is messed up. I really needed someone to say

that to me. The truth is, I have feared " dumping " her because of my

original perception of what a great friend she was, and how lucky I

was to have her in my life. Plus I'm thinking, geez beggars can't be

choosers, right?

There is this unspoken understanding, though, that she is kind of " in

charge " of how things go, including the fact that she wants me to get

over all of this but does not want to discuss it. That does feel very

nada to me.

Thank you. I always appreciate your input.

-Deanna

>

> Deanna, would youu mind if I were a little judgmental?

>

> This " friend " doesn't sound right in the head.

>

> Really. I agree with all the responses you've received so far about

> the situation, but I also wanted to add that, while reading your posts

> about it, my " not quite sane " red flag went straight up. Sociopath,

> maybe, but frankly she sounds borderline to me!

>

> I think we KO's need to take serously the possibility that our

> being--until recently--unconscious KO's had the effect of allowing

> people into our orbit with much more serous issues than most people

> would tolerate. I'm sure there is some danger in learning about BPD

> and then wanting to apply that diagnosis to everyone you've ever had

> issues with; but the truth is, I think KO's DO meet more borderlines

> and get involved with them than most people do. I think it happens to

> push us to wake up to the original issue. But once we do that, once we

> learn about BPD and its effects on us, we're left with people in our

> lives that look increasingly unhealthy to us.

>

> While reading your post, I got the unshakeable feeling that there's

> something wrong with your friend beyond " bad behavior " . It's scary for

> me to type that, I feel like I'm accusing someone of what we all know

> is a very bad state of mind. But I have to be honest.

>

> Your comment that, if you met her now you wouldn't want to be friends,

> is all it takes. Perhaps your values have changed for the better, or

> perhaps it's all the info coming out about the " friendship " and its

> fakeness...doesn't make a difference. I think in your heart you've

> decided that the friendship was false and are trying to justify

> letting it go. In my opinion, you have that justification and then

> some. That " friend " sounds nutty, oblivious, damaging to the people

> around her, and maladjusted. You're right to get out.

>

> Love always,

> Vi

[Guest guest]

Deanna,

Thanks for sharing this story. I see KO-ness in it

partly because I’ve been there and done that, too.

It’s sad and painful, I know. It sounds as if the

friendship is long over, and that your excellent

abilities to be a good friend, a good listener,

compassionate, considerate and loving were all taken

advantage of by, and I agree with Kyla, a narcissist.

This is not your fault. For me, I’ve had to keep

learning more about the warning signs and take

responsibility for wasting my time and energy with

these people, whether it was a woman I was married to

or dating, or a man friend.

I’ve had a number of long-term friendships crumble or

get cut off for no good reason or any reason I knew

of. I don’t know what they were thinking or how they

felt comfortable cutting off communication with me

after I’d been such a good friend. Maybe I was too

good of a friend and they said to themselves, “Well,

he seems to accept me as I am, so I’ll dump some of my

**** on him!” With the anti-modeling for social

relationships that I got from my charming FOO, it’s no

wonder I was so confused about it and still have work

to do on that.

For quite a while I was frightened that, after I got

rid of all the toxic people in my life, there wouldn’t

be anyone left! That’s often been true. It’s been

painful to sacrifice social possibilities to protect

my mental, emotional and spiritual health by not

pretending that I enjoy the company of very neurotic

and disturbed people (there are so many, aren’t

there!). Once in a while I find someone I like and I

try to slowly nurture friendships with them. It’s

painfully slow for me, but I’m hoping that it’ll

continue to pay off in long-term friendships with

them. Maybe they’re being as cautious as I am for the

same kind of reasons.

After I wrote the above, I read it and said to myself,

“There’s something else.” It’s extra-painful for me,

but maybe you and some other fellow KOs can relate to

it. It’s this: I saw and endured so much fakery and

bull**** from my nada to me and other people that when

I see others doing it, I feel like running in the

opposite direction. Unfortunately, most human

interaction is that way, from most peoples’ answer

(including mine) to “How ya doin’?” to “What’s new?”,

etc. I think that most people don’t have this much

aversion to the bull****, so they have little or no

problem with typical conversation. I used to feel

like jumping out of my skin at the sound of most human

interaction, and to this day I still sometimes feel

like wretching at the shallowness of it. I know where

this feeling comes from and I have to work hard to

interact with people much of the time. Then, I often

**** it up for myself by trying to start friendships

with people who don’t deserve me. Fortunately, I’m

getting much better at not doing that. My appropriate

judgementalness is much more aware and I’m much

quicker to use it. This quality, like every other

part of my humanity, was undermined, twisted, blocked,

ridiculed and punished by my nada and FOO, so I used

to let people basically get away with murder with me,

just like I had to with my FOO to survive. (Sigh.)

Now, my world is . . . hard to live in, but much

better and wiser.

All comments from any and all of you fellow KOs out

there, including you lurkers, yes, you, are welcomed.

One Non-BP Recovering Man

--- kylaboo728 wrote:

> I'd feel as bewildered as you do right now. You're

> probably feeling

> as confused and betrayed as her husband.

>

> It sounds as if you were led down the fantasy path

> just like

> everybody else in her life. She wasn't really

> intimate with anyone -

> - she was just playing the part. Almost

> sociopathic, really.

>

> I am sorry you're sustaining this loss, but if it

> were me, I'd wash

> my hands of the whole thing. She's too secretive,

> too closed off --

> unavailable for a true relationship -- even a

> friendship. You've

> given it all you could -- even showed compassion by

> asking " Have I

> done something? " . You really have showed more care

> for the

> relationship than she has. Her words are empty --

> her actions tell

> you more.

>

> I'd feel the same way you do. In a way, you've been

> " scammed " .

> She's not letting you in. She probably never let

> her husband in. I

> feel sorry for him, too. He could have been

> spending the last 15

> years building a history and a life with a caring

> wife who loved

> him. Instead, he got a very selfish, closed-off,

> unavailable and

> unrepentant, stubborn narcissist. She seems all

> about the outward

> signs of intimacy, while never lifting a finger to

> build TRUE

> intimacy.

>

> -Kyla

>

>

> >

> > I have this situation with a friendship that I am

> still trying to

> sort

> > out in my head. This is sort of off topic, as

> it's not about a

> BPD in

> > my life, but I'm wondering if my experience with

> this is KO

> related,

> > and what you guys think of it.

> >

> > I met 8 years ago, and we seemed to become

> fast friends. She

> > was very friendly and positive and nice (very

> unlike my

> > family/childhood experience). She was living with

> her parents at

> 28,

> > had never moved out and never intended to move

> out. She said they

> > were " roomies " and they just enjoyed one another's

> company. She

> told

> > me she had a sister and a brother.

> >

> > She told me very little about her problems over

> the years, so I

> > thought she did not have any. When I would see

> her family, her mom

> > was immediately very warm and friendly, like

> 's friends were

> her

> > friends. I was uncomfortable with the

> over-the-top-ness of

> this " I'm

> > so happy to see you, big hug, big smile " thing, I

> guess as I'm just

> > too cynical, but I got used to it.

> >

> > Maybe 3 years into our friendship, she got

> married, and I remember

> > feeling a little confused about our

> relationship...like were we

> close

> > enough that I would be invited to her wedding? I

> was invited, and

> > over the years I grew to trust the things she said

> to me, like

> that I

> > was " part of the family " and part of her " inner

> circle " . She was

> the

> > best friend a person could ever ask for in many

> ways. A great

> > listener, there when you needed her. I told her

> everything, and

> she

> > kept it surface with me, but I did not realize she

> was doing that.

> >

> > Then, 7 years in, she tells me she has a brother

> with Downs, and he

> > will be at Thanksgiving dinner at her house (which

> I've been going

> to

> > for years). He lives in a group home. He's home

> every Christmas,

> and

> > every Christmas she has told me about her day,

> carefully omitting

> this

> > brother, for 7 years. She only told me,

> apparently, because for

> some

> > reason, he was going to be there for Thanksgiving.

> I felt kind of

> > hurt by this.

> >

> > The last two years were rough for me in regards to

> her. She was

> > working on her first political campaign and was

> very busy. So I

> did

> > what I do when someone is busy, and I backed off.

> She also became

> > snippy with me on occasion, although she was

> completely oblivious

> to

> > this (as she is apparently really good at putting

> on a happy

> face).

> > Then her mom became less happy to see me. Her

> best friend was also

> > snippy with me. I felt an energy shift one night

> at dinner, and

> in my

> > perception, things never went back to normal

> (ahhh...the KO

> ability to

> > detect mood changes...).

> >

> > I tried to blow it off and not take it personally,

> but I did email

> her

> > and ask her if she was mad at me. She wrote back

> of course not,

> let's

> > get together more often. I knew something was

> wrong, so I thought

> > " great, she is just lying to avoid a

> confrontation. " So I did not

> > want to burden her by cornering her during this

> busy time in her

> life,

> > so I backed off more. And I grieved on my own.

> >

> > After 18 months of this, she tells me she's

> getting a divorce. I

> ask

> > why and she says she's just not feeling it. He

> has already moved

> out

> > when she tells me this. She says, " I told him I

> just wasn't

> feeling

> > it anymore and he wants to know why and I say I

> just don't, so he

> kept

> > me up all night making me talk about it and then

> my alarm went off

> and

> > I had to go to work. Oh great. Now I've had no

> sleep. Thanks a

> lot.

> > I mean, how selfish can you be??? "

> >

> > I'm thinking when you end a 15 year relationship,

> your partner

> > deserves to talk about it until he's satisfied,

> and that's not

> > selfish. She could have taken the day off to

> sleep. The campaign

> > would not have crumbled.

> >

> > So months later she says we have to go for a drink

> so she can tell

> me

> > the real reason for her divorce. At this point,

> I'm tired of the

> > secrets and I don't know why we're still friends,

> but I go.

> >

> > I really held in high esteem. I thought she

> had the most

> > integrity of anyone I knew. I envied her tight

> family, and her

> > optimism and gaggle of friends.

> >

> > Turns out she was having an affair with a woman

> for *two years* and

> > that was the reason for the divorce. She's with a

> different woman

> > now. So when her husband made her stay up all

> night, he was

> probably

> > pulling a lot of crap out of her that she probably

> wouldn't fess up

> > to, dragging it on for hours. Her mother *begged*

> her not to leave

> > the husband, because *she* loved him as part of

> the family. I

> don't

> > know if she wanted her to just never tell him

> about the affair or

> what.

> >

> > So I said, " Wow, I wish you had told me something

> was up. I

> thought

> > you were mad at me for 2 years. " She smiles and

> exclaims

> > semi-excitedly " you're the 5th person who's said

> that! " And then

> it's

> > la-ti-da on to the next topic.

> >

> > In the middle of this disclosure, I ask her if

> she's had lesbian

> > experiences before and she just stares at me. She

> doesn't want to

> > answer. And that is her right. I guess I had an

> expectation that

> 8

> > years of being " close friends " would involve more

> disclosure and

> > trust, but I guess that is just not her. Or just

> not her with me.

> >

> > So she thinks I'm an ass because I'm not " cutting

> her slack " . I

> > should cut her some slack for all that she's been

> through (but I'm

> > like, you PUT yourself through that...) I should

> not be upset over

> > the snippiness and fake smiles and the feeling

> that something was

> > wrong. I asked her if she was mad at me and she

> said no...she

> didn't lie.

> >

> > I feel now like I just don't know her, and I never

> will.

> Whenever I

> > think about calling her again (we're not talking

> now), I think

> what is

> > the point? It's all fake. It's not like I

> expected her to tell me

> > she was having an affair, but the affair made me

> realize how

> little I

> > really know her. And it seems she's walking away

> from this with

> zero

> > self awareness. She seems to think that it was

> perfectly okay for

> her

> > to take all the time she needed to mess with the

> idea of being gay

> > (which she says she is not, BTW), on her husband's

> clock. And she

> > can't understand why he won't speak to her now,

> but still meets her

> > parent for dinner on occasion.

> >

> > Okay, what really bugs me about this too is that

> her husband had a

> > family sort of like mine, not demonstrative, and

> she *trained* him

> to

> > look happy to see her every time he saw her and

> make a big deal

> out of

> > it, like her mom does. She actually broke up with

> him because he

> > wasn't doing this. She made him, for the next 10

> years, behave in

> the

> > way she thought was " loving " , yet she did not

> return the favor.

> It's

> > so fake!

> >

> > I know it is up to her how much of herself she

> wants to share with

> > someone. Every time I think of calling her I

> imagine spending the

> > rest of my life trying to " fake it " with her.

> >

> > Then I think, I don't have a lot of friends.

> Maybe I'm being

> too....I

> > don't know what.

> >

> > How would you guys feel in this situation.

> >

> > -Deanna

> >

>

>

>

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Non-PB Man,

The things you wrote at the end of your post really made me think.

I've been thinking quite a bit lately about some of the qualitites I

have that make it hard to relate to people, and if I were going to be

honest, I'd have to admit that a sense that things have to be totally

out in the open, all the time, has held me back in some ways.

Especially in situations like work and in the academic-power-hierarchy

arenas. I can make small talk at parties easily, but anything that

smacks of " playing the game " at work or school...I've had to distance

myself from the very concept, because it makes me sick.

I have had to fake so much so long with my nada, and endured so much

fakery from her--to myself, and for others' benefit--that it sickens

me to BS people too, or to hear it done, even pleasantly. I always

want to tell the absolute truth, and to cut to it in my reactions with

others. Not necessarily brutal honesty, just straightforward dealing.

The sad truth is, in some situations that really isn't appropriate.

That's been hard for me to deal with.

I've taken a lot of comfort from being straightforward, it was my

" safe zone " after my nada's bullshit-world; but I am beginning to

suspect that a certain amount of diplomatic maneuvering is going to be

necessary to succeed in my school and career. I don't know how I feel

about this, or how to do it without selling myself out. Because most

people DO sell themselves out.

My nada once told me, in this real cynical and bitter way, that

" sometimed you just have to play the game " . I remember the twisted

ugly tone she used, and the misanthropic view that it stemmed from,

like she thought people sucked and were forcing her to be dishonest,

and that they therefore didn't deserve any better than she was giving

them. I remember how disgusted I was with that. It's led me to avoid

playing any games with people, ever. Which is great...until it seems

like you have to.

What do you do then??

Vi

> > >

> > > I have this situation with a friendship that I am

> > still trying to

> > sort

> > > out in my head. This is sort of off topic, as

> > it's not about a

> > BPD in

> > > my life, but I'm wondering if my experience with

> > this is KO

> > related,

> > > and what you guys think of it.

> > >

> > > I met 8 years ago, and we seemed to become

> > fast friends. She

> > > was very friendly and positive and nice (very

> > unlike my

> > > family/childhood experience). She was living with

> > her parents at

> > 28,

> > > had never moved out and never intended to move

> > out. She said they

> > > were " roomies " and they just enjoyed one another's

> > company. She

> > told

> > > me she had a sister and a brother.

> > >

> > > She told me very little about her problems over

> > the years, so I

> > > thought she did not have any. When I would see

> > her family, her mom

> > > was immediately very warm and friendly, like

> > 's friends were

> > her

> > > friends. I was uncomfortable with the

> > over-the-top-ness of

> > this " I'm

> > > so happy to see you, big hug, big smile " thing, I

> > guess as I'm just

> > > too cynical, but I got used to it.

> > >

> > > Maybe 3 years into our friendship, she got

> > married, and I remember

> > > feeling a little confused about our

> > relationship...like were we

> > close

> > > enough that I would be invited to her wedding? I

> > was invited, and

> > > over the years I grew to trust the things she said

> > to me, like

> > that I

> > > was " part of the family " and part of her " inner

> > circle " . She was

> > the

> > > best friend a person could ever ask for in many

> > ways. A great

> > > listener, there when you needed her. I told her

> > everything, and

> > she

> > > kept it surface with me, but I did not realize she

> > was doing that.

> > >

> > > Then, 7 years in, she tells me she has a brother

> > with Downs, and he

> > > will be at Thanksgiving dinner at her house (which

> > I've been going

> > to

> > > for years). He lives in a group home. He's home

> > every Christmas,

> > and

> > > every Christmas she has told me about her day,

> > carefully omitting

> > this

> > > brother, for 7 years. She only told me,

> > apparently, because for

> > some

> > > reason, he was going to be there for Thanksgiving.

> > I felt kind of

> > > hurt by this.

> > >

> > > The last two years were rough for me in regards to

> > her. She was

> > > working on her first political campaign and was

> > very busy. So I

> > did

> > > what I do when someone is busy, and I backed off.

> > She also became

> > > snippy with me on occasion, although she was

> > completely oblivious

> > to

> > > this (as she is apparently really good at putting

> > on a happy

> > face).

> > > Then her mom became less happy to see me. Her

> > best friend was also

> > > snippy with me. I felt an energy shift one night

> > at dinner, and

> > in my

> > > perception, things never went back to normal

> > (ahhh...the KO

> > ability to

> > > detect mood changes...).

> > >

> > > I tried to blow it off and not take it personally,

> > but I did email

> > her

> > > and ask her if she was mad at me. She wrote back

> > of course not,

> > let's

> > > get together more often. I knew something was

> > wrong, so I thought

> > > " great, she is just lying to avoid a

> > confrontation. " So I did not

> > > want to burden her by cornering her during this

> > busy time in her

> > life,

> > > so I backed off more. And I grieved on my own.

> > >

> > > After 18 months of this, she tells me she's

> > getting a divorce. I

> > ask

> > > why and she says she's just not feeling it. He

> > has already moved

> > out

> > > when she tells me this. She says, " I told him I

> > just wasn't

> > feeling

> > > it anymore and he wants to know why and I say I

> > just don't, so he

> > kept

> > > me up all night making me talk about it and then

> > my alarm went off

> > and

> > > I had to go to work. Oh great. Now I've had no

> > sleep. Thanks a

> > lot.

> > > I mean, how selfish can you be??? "

> > >

> > > I'm thinking when you end a 15 year relationship,

> > your partner

> > > deserves to talk about it until he's satisfied,

> > and that's not

> > > selfish. She could have taken the day off to

> > sleep. The campaign

> > > would not have crumbled.

> > >

> > > So months later she says we have to go for a drink

> > so she can tell

> > me

> > > the real reason for her divorce. At this point,

> > I'm tired of the

> > > secrets and I don't know why we're still friends,

> > but I go.

> > >

> > > I really held in high esteem. I thought she

> > had the most

> > > integrity of anyone I knew. I envied her tight

> > family, and her

> > > optimism and gaggle of friends.

> > >

> > > Turns out she was having an affair with a woman

> > for *two years* and

> > > that was the reason for the divorce. She's with a

> > different woman

> > > now. So when her husband made her stay up all

> > night, he was

> > probably

> > > pulling a lot of crap out of her that she probably

> > wouldn't fess up

> > > to, dragging it on for hours. Her mother *begged*

> > her not to leave

> > > the husband, because *she* loved him as part of

> > the family. I

> > don't

> > > know if she wanted her to just never tell him

> > about the affair or

> > what.

> > >

> > > So I said, " Wow, I wish you had told me something

> > was up. I

> > thought

> > > you were mad at me for 2 years. " She smiles and

> > exclaims

> > > semi-excitedly " you're the 5th person who's said

> > that! " And then

> > it's

> > > la-ti-da on to the next topic.

> > >

> > > In the middle of this disclosure, I ask her if

> > she's had lesbian

> > > experiences before and she just stares at me. She

> > doesn't want to

> > > answer. And that is her right. I guess I had an

> > expectation that

> > 8

> > > years of being " close friends " would involve more

> > disclosure and

> > > trust, but I guess that is just not her. Or just

> > not her with me.

> > >

> > > So she thinks I'm an ass because I'm not " cutting

> > her slack " . I

> > > should cut her some slack for all that she's been

> > through (but I'm

> > > like, you PUT yourself through that...) I should

> > not be upset over

> > > the snippiness and fake smiles and the feeling

> > that something was

> > > wrong. I asked her if she was mad at me and she

> > said no...she

> > didn't lie.

> > >

> > > I feel now like I just don't know her, and I never

> > will.

> > Whenever I

> > > think about calling her again (we're not talking

> > now), I think

> > what is

> > > the point? It's all fake. It's not like I

> > expected her to tell me

> > > she was having an affair, but the affair made me

> > realize how

> > little I

> > > really know her. And it seems she's walking away

> > from this with

> > zero

> > > self awareness. She seems to think that it was

> > perfectly okay for

> > her

> > > to take all the time she needed to mess with the

> > idea of being gay

> > > (which she says she is not, BTW), on her husband's

> > clock. And she

> > > can't understand why he won't speak to her now,

> > but still meets her

> > > parent for dinner on occasion.

> > >

> > > Okay, what really bugs me about this too is that

> > her husband had a

> > > family sort of like mine, not demonstrative, and

> > she *trained* him

> > to

> > > look happy to see her every time he saw her and

> > make a big deal

> > out of

> > > it, like her mom does. She actually broke up with

> > him because he

> > > wasn't doing this. She made him, for the next 10

> > years, behave in

> > the

> > > way she thought was " loving " , yet she did not

> > return the favor.

> > It's

> > > so fake!

> > >

> > > I know it is up to her how much of herself she

> > wants to share with

> > > someone. Every time I think of calling her I

> > imagine spending the

> > > rest of my life trying to " fake it " with her.

> > >

> > > Then I think, I don't have a lot of friends.

> > Maybe I'm being

> > too....I

> > > don't know what.

> > >

> > > How would you guys feel in this situation.

> > >

> > > -Deanna

> > >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

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>

[Guest guest]

Vi -- I can relate so much to your post. I dislike BS and I prefer

smaller, intimate socializing. The office intrigues always made me

uncomfortable -- I always wanted to get away from it. Even though

I've been gone from my office for 12 years, I still hear of the

backstabbing crap going on and I am so glad I'm not there.

<< " I've taken a lot of comfort from being straightforward, it was my

> " safe zone " after my nada's bullshit-world; but I am beginning to

> suspect that a certain amount of diplomatic maneuvering is going

to be necessary to succeed in my school and career. I don't know how

I feel about this, or how to do it without selling myself out.

Because most people DO sell themselves out. " >>

With all due respect, I disagree that you have to sell yourself

out. I say be yourself. You can be straightforward in a

diplomatic, polite way. If you remain true to who you are, then YOU

can decide how much of yourself you're willing to invest in " the

game " . If it starts making you feel like a sellout, then adjust

course and get back to honoring your gut feelings.

But, by all means, you can be straightforward and police your

personal integrity and your personal boundaries and do it in such a

way that you don't have to be dragged into something you don't want

to do. You don't have to be a sellout.

Whatever your career -- if you're good at what you do and get your

work done and do it well, you can have a clear conscience about

yourself. If the field you're in requires you to be some cloak-and-

dagger faker, then maybe that particular location isn't the right

one for you. You can discern that and move on if you need to.

I don't know if that makes sense, but I know if I were a boss or a

co-worker, I'd LOVE to have a hard-working straight-shooter on my

team. (a " company man " as they used to say!) Loyal to the job and

to getting it done.

If you're getting your work done and showing enthusiasm for your

job, they will accept you on your terms. If not, then maybe it is

not the place you're meant to be.

I would hate to see someone as bright as you be a sellout, such that

it bothers you inside.

{hugs}

Kyla

>

> > > >

> > > > I have this situation with a friendship that I am

> > > still trying to

> > > sort

> > > > out in my head. This is sort of off topic, as

> > > it's not about a

> > > BPD in

> > > > my life, but I'm wondering if my experience with

> > > this is KO

> > > related,

> > > > and what you guys think of it.

> > > >

> > > > I met 8 years ago, and we seemed to become

> > > fast friends. She

> > > > was very friendly and positive and nice (very

> > > unlike my

> > > > family/childhood experience). She was living with

> > > her parents at

> > > 28,

> > > > had never moved out and never intended to move

> > > out. She said they

> > > > were " roomies " and they just enjoyed one another's

> > > company. She

> > > told

> > > > me she had a sister and a brother.

> > > >

> > > > She told me very little about her problems over

> > > the years, so I

> > > > thought she did not have any. When I would see

> > > her family, her mom

> > > > was immediately very warm and friendly, like

> > > 's friends were

> > > her

> > > > friends. I was uncomfortable with the

> > > over-the-top-ness of

> > > this " I'm

> > > > so happy to see you, big hug, big smile " thing, I

> > > guess as I'm just

> > > > too cynical, but I got used to it.

> > > >

> > > > Maybe 3 years into our friendship, she got

> > > married, and I remember

> > > > feeling a little confused about our

> > > relationship...like were we

> > > close

> > > > enough that I would be invited to her wedding? I

> > > was invited, and

> > > > over the years I grew to trust the things she said

> > > to me, like

> > > that I

> > > > was " part of the family " and part of her " inner

> > > circle " . She was

> > > the

> > > > best friend a person could ever ask for in many

> > > ways. A great

> > > > listener, there when you needed her. I told her

> > > everything, and

> > > she

> > > > kept it surface with me, but I did not realize she

> > > was doing that.

> > > >

> > > > Then, 7 years in, she tells me she has a brother

> > > with Downs, and he

> > > > will be at Thanksgiving dinner at her house (which

> > > I've been going

> > > to

> > > > for years). He lives in a group home. He's home

> > > every Christmas,

> > > and

> > > > every Christmas she has told me about her day,

> > > carefully omitting

> > > this

> > > > brother, for 7 years. She only told me,

> > > apparently, because for

> > > some

> > > > reason, he was going to be there for Thanksgiving.

> > > I felt kind of

> > > > hurt by this.

> > > >

> > > > The last two years were rough for me in regards to

> > > her. She was

> > > > working on her first political campaign and was

> > > very busy. So I

> > > did

> > > > what I do when someone is busy, and I backed off.

> > > She also became

> > > > snippy with me on occasion, although she was

> > > completely oblivious

> > > to

> > > > this (as she is apparently really good at putting

> > > on a happy

> > > face).

> > > > Then her mom became less happy to see me. Her

> > > best friend was also

> > > > snippy with me. I felt an energy shift one night

> > > at dinner, and

> > > in my

> > > > perception, things never went back to normal

> > > (ahhh...the KO

> > > ability to

> > > > detect mood changes...).

> > > >

> > > > I tried to blow it off and not take it personally,

> > > but I did email

> > > her

> > > > and ask her if she was mad at me. She wrote back

> > > of course not,

> > > let's

> > > > get together more often. I knew something was

> > > wrong, so I thought

> > > > " great, she is just lying to avoid a

> > > confrontation. " So I did not

> > > > want to burden her by cornering her during this

> > > busy time in her

> > > life,

> > > > so I backed off more. And I grieved on my own.

> > > >

> > > > After 18 months of this, she tells me she's

> > > getting a divorce. I

> > > ask

> > > > why and she says she's just not feeling it. He

> > > has already moved

> > > out

> > > > when she tells me this. She says, " I told him I

> > > just wasn't

> > > feeling

> > > > it anymore and he wants to know why and I say I

> > > just don't, so he

> > > kept

> > > > me up all night making me talk about it and then

> > > my alarm went off

> > > and

> > > > I had to go to work. Oh great. Now I've had no

> > > sleep. Thanks a

> > > lot.

> > > > I mean, how selfish can you be??? "

> > > >

> > > > I'm thinking when you end a 15 year relationship,

> > > your partner

> > > > deserves to talk about it until he's satisfied,

> > > and that's not

> > > > selfish. She could have taken the day off to

> > > sleep. The campaign

> > > > would not have crumbled.

> > > >

> > > > So months later she says we have to go for a drink

> > > so she can tell

> > > me

> > > > the real reason for her divorce. At this point,

> > > I'm tired of the

> > > > secrets and I don't know why we're still friends,

> > > but I go.

> > > >

> > > > I really held in high esteem. I thought she

> > > had the most

> > > > integrity of anyone I knew. I envied her tight

> > > family, and her

> > > > optimism and gaggle of friends.

> > > >

> > > > Turns out she was having an affair with a woman

> > > for *two years* and

> > > > that was the reason for the divorce. She's with a

> > > different woman

> > > > now. So when her husband made her stay up all

> > > night, he was

> > > probably

> > > > pulling a lot of crap out of her that she probably

> > > wouldn't fess up

> > > > to, dragging it on for hours. Her mother *begged*

> > > her not to leave

> > > > the husband, because *she* loved him as part of

> > > the family. I

> > > don't

> > > > know if she wanted her to just never tell him

> > > about the affair or

> > > what.

> > > >

> > > > So I said, " Wow, I wish you had told me something

> > > was up. I

> > > thought

> > > > you were mad at me for 2 years. " She smiles and

> > > exclaims

> > > > semi-excitedly " you're the 5th person who's said

> > > that! " And then

> > > it's

> > > > la-ti-da on to the next topic.

> > > >

> > > > In the middle of this disclosure, I ask her if

> > > she's had lesbian

> > > > experiences before and she just stares at me. She

> > > doesn't want to

> > > > answer. And that is her right. I guess I had an

> > > expectation that

> > > 8

> > > > years of being " close friends " would involve more

> > > disclosure and

> > > > trust, but I guess that is just not her. Or just

> > > not her with me.

> > > >

> > > > So she thinks I'm an ass because I'm not " cutting

> > > her slack " . I

> > > > should cut her some slack for all that she's been

> > > through (but I'm

> > > > like, you PUT yourself through that...) I should

> > > not be upset over

> > > > the snippiness and fake smiles and the feeling

> > > that something was

> > > > wrong. I asked her if she was mad at me and she

> > > said no...she

> > > didn't lie.

> > > >

> > > > I feel now like I just don't know her, and I never

> > > will.

> > > Whenever I

> > > > think about calling her again (we're not talking

> > > now), I think

> > > what is

> > > > the point? It's all fake. It's not like I

> > > expected her to tell me

> > > > she was having an affair, but the affair made me

> > > realize how

> > > little I

> > > > really know her. And it seems she's walking away

> > > from this with

> > > zero

> > > > self awareness. She seems to think that it was

> > > perfectly okay for

> > > her

> > > > to take all the time she needed to mess with the

> > > idea of being gay

> > > > (which she says she is not, BTW), on her husband's

> > > clock. And she

> > > > can't understand why he won't speak to her now,

> > > but still meets her

> > > > parent for dinner on occasion.

> > > >

> > > > Okay, what really bugs me about this too is that

> > > her husband had a

> > > > family sort of like mine, not demonstrative, and

> > > she *trained* him

> > > to

> > > > look happy to see her every time he saw her and

> > > make a big deal

> > > out of

> > > > it, like her mom does. She actually broke up with

> > > him because he

> > > > wasn't doing this. She made him, for the next 10

> > > years, behave in

> > > the

> > > > way she thought was " loving " , yet she did not

> > > return the favor.

> > > It's

> > > > so fake!

> > > >

> > > > I know it is up to her how much of herself she

> > > wants to share with

> > > > someone. Every time I think of calling her I

> > > imagine spending the

> > > > rest of my life trying to " fake it " with her.

> > > >

> > > > Then I think, I don't have a lot of friends.

> > > Maybe I'm being

> > > too....I

> > > > don't know what.

> > > >

> > > > How would you guys feel in this situation.

> > > >

> > > > -Deanna

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

_____________________________________________________________________

______________

> > You snooze, you lose. Get messages ASAP with AutoCheck

> > in the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.

> > http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_html.html

> >

>

[Guest guest]

" the more important

your work ethic actually is "

Actually, to me, my work ethic is important to me no matter the

location.

-Kyla

>

> I have this situation with a friendship that I am still trying to

sort

> out in my head. This is sort of off topic, as it's not about a

BPD in

> my life, but I'm wondering if my experience with this is KO

related,

> and what you guys think of it.

>

> I met 8 years ago, and we seemed to become fast friends. She

> was very friendly and positive and nice (very unlike my

> family/childhood experience). She was living with her parents at

28,

> had never moved out and never intended to move out. She said they

> were " roomies " and they just enjoyed one another's company. She

told

> me she had a sister and a brother.

>

> She told me very little about her problems over the years, so I

> thought she did not have any. When I would see her family, her mom

> was immediately very warm and friendly, like 's friends were

her

> friends. I was uncomfortable with the over-the-top-ness of

this " I'm

> so happy to see you, big hug, big smile " thing, I guess as I'm just

> too cynical, but I got used to it.

>

> Maybe 3 years into our friendship, she got married, and I remember

> feeling a little confused about our relationship...like were we

close

> enough that I would be invited to her wedding? I was invited, and

> over the years I grew to trust the things she said to me, like

that I

> was " part of the family " and part of her " inner circle " . She was

the

> best friend a person could ever ask for in many ways. A great

> listener, there when you needed her. I told her everything, and

she

> kept it surface with me, but I did not realize she was doing that.

>

> Then, 7 years in, she tells me she has a brother with Downs, and he

> will be at Thanksgiving dinner at her house (which I've been going

to

> for years). He lives in a group home. He's home every Christmas,

and

> every Christmas she has told me about her day, carefully omitting

this

> brother, for 7 years. She only told me, apparently, because for

some

> reason, he was going to be there for Thanksgiving. I felt kind of

> hurt by this.

>

> The last two years were rough for me in regards to her. She was

> working on her first political campaign and was very busy. So I

did

> what I do when someone is busy, and I backed off. She also became

> snippy with me on occasion, although she was completely oblivious

to

> this (as she is apparently really good at putting on a happy

face).

> Then her mom became less happy to see me. Her best friend was also

> snippy with me. I felt an energy shift one night at dinner, and

in my

> perception, things never went back to normal (ahhh...the KO

ability to

> detect mood changes...).

>

> I tried to blow it off and not take it personally, but I did email

her

> and ask her if she was mad at me. She wrote back of course not,

let's

> get together more often. I knew something was wrong, so I thought

> " great, she is just lying to avoid a confrontation. " So I did not

> want to burden her by cornering her during this busy time in her

life,

> so I backed off more. And I grieved on my own.

>

> After 18 months of this, she tells me she's getting a divorce. I

ask

> why and she says she's just not feeling it. He has already moved

out

> when she tells me this. She says, " I told him I just wasn't

feeling

> it anymore and he wants to know why and I say I just don't, so he

kept

> me up all night making me talk about it and then my alarm went off

and

> I had to go to work. Oh great. Now I've had no sleep. Thanks a

lot.

> I mean, how selfish can you be??? "

>

> I'm thinking when you end a 15 year relationship, your partner

> deserves to talk about it until he's satisfied, and that's not

> selfish. She could have taken the day off to sleep. The campaign

> would not have crumbled.

>

> So months later she says we have to go for a drink so she can tell

me

> the real reason for her divorce. At this point, I'm tired of the

> secrets and I don't know why we're still friends, but I go.

>

> I really held in high esteem. I thought she had the most

> integrity of anyone I knew. I envied her tight family, and her

> optimism and gaggle of friends.

>

> Turns out she was having an affair with a woman for *two years* and

> that was the reason for the divorce. She's with a different woman

> now. So when her husband made her stay up all night, he was

probably

> pulling a lot of crap out of her that she probably wouldn't fess up

> to, dragging it on for hours. Her mother *begged* her not to leave

> the husband, because *she* loved him as part of the family. I

don't

> know if she wanted her to just never tell him about the affair or

what.

>

> So I said, " Wow, I wish you had told me something was up. I

thought

> you were mad at me for 2 years. " She smiles and exclaims

> semi-excitedly " you're the 5th person who's said that! " And then

it's

> la-ti-da on to the next topic.

>

> In the middle of this disclosure, I ask her if she's had lesbian

> experiences before and she just stares at me. She doesn't want to

> answer. And that is her right. I guess I had an expectation that

8

> years of being " close friends " would involve more disclosure and

> trust, but I guess that is just not her. Or just not her with me.

>

> So she thinks I'm an ass because I'm not " cutting her slack " . I

> should cut her some slack for all that she's been through (but I'm

> like, you PUT yourself through that...) I should not be upset over

> the snippiness and fake smiles and the feeling that something was

> wrong. I asked her if she was mad at me and she said no...she

didn't lie.

>

> I feel now like I just don't know her, and I never will.

Whenever I

> think about calling her again (we're not talking now), I think

what is

> the point? It's all fake. It's not like I expected her to tell me

> she was having an affair, but the affair made me realize how

little I

> really know her. And it seems she's walking away from this with

zero

> self awareness. She seems to think that it was perfectly okay for

her

> to take all the time she needed to mess with the idea of being gay

> (which she says she is not, BTW), on her husband's clock. And she

> can't understand why he won't speak to her now, but still meets her

> parent for dinner on occasion.

>

> Okay, what really bugs me about this too is that her husband had a

> family sort of like mine, not demonstrative, and she *trained* him

to

> look happy to see her every time he saw her and make a big deal

out of

> it, like her mom does. She actually broke up with him because he

> wasn't doing this. She made him, for the next 10 years, behave in

the

> way she thought was " loving " , yet she did not return the favor.

It's

> so fake!

>

> I know it is up to her how much of herself she wants to share with

> someone. Every time I think of calling her I imagine spending the

> rest of my life trying to " fake it " with her.

>

> Then I think, I don't have a lot of friends. Maybe I'm being

too....I

> don't know what.

>

> How would you guys feel in this situation.

>

> -Deanna

>

[Guest guest]

It's important to me too. I'm just saying that I've seen countless

people with crummy work ethic get promoted because they have the

ability to " fake nice " . Like I said in the top of my post, work hard

to please yourself, not because you think your boss will notice and

reward you.

> >

> > I have this situation with a friendship that I am still trying to

> sort

> > out in my head. This is sort of off topic, as it's not about a

> BPD in

> > my life, but I'm wondering if my experience with this is KO

> related,

> > and what you guys think of it.

> >

> > I met 8 years ago, and we seemed to become fast friends. She

> > was very friendly and positive and nice (very unlike my

> > family/childhood experience). She was living with her parents at

> 28,

> > had never moved out and never intended to move out. She said they

> > were " roomies " and they just enjoyed one another's company. She

> told

> > me she had a sister and a brother.

> >

> > She told me very little about her problems over the years, so I

> > thought she did not have any. When I would see her family, her mom

> > was immediately very warm and friendly, like 's friends were

> her

> > friends. I was uncomfortable with the over-the-top-ness of

> this " I'm

> > so happy to see you, big hug, big smile " thing, I guess as I'm just

> > too cynical, but I got used to it.

> >

> > Maybe 3 years into our friendship, she got married, and I remember

> > feeling a little confused about our relationship...like were we

> close

> > enough that I would be invited to her wedding? I was invited, and

> > over the years I grew to trust the things she said to me, like

> that I

> > was " part of the family " and part of her " inner circle " . She was

> the

> > best friend a person could ever ask for in many ways. A great

> > listener, there when you needed her. I told her everything, and

> she

> > kept it surface with me, but I did not realize she was doing that.

> >

> > Then, 7 years in, she tells me she has a brother with Downs, and he

> > will be at Thanksgiving dinner at her house (which I've been going

> to

> > for years). He lives in a group home. He's home every Christmas,

> and

> > every Christmas she has told me about her day, carefully omitting

> this

> > brother, for 7 years. She only told me, apparently, because for

> some

> > reason, he was going to be there for Thanksgiving. I felt kind of

> > hurt by this.

> >

> > The last two years were rough for me in regards to her. She was

> > working on her first political campaign and was very busy. So I

> did

> > what I do when someone is busy, and I backed off. She also became

> > snippy with me on occasion, although she was completely oblivious

> to

> > this (as she is apparently really good at putting on a happy

> face).

> > Then her mom became less happy to see me. Her best friend was also

> > snippy with me. I felt an energy shift one night at dinner, and

> in my

> > perception, things never went back to normal (ahhh...the KO

> ability to

> > detect mood changes...).

> >

> > I tried to blow it off and not take it personally, but I did email

> her

> > and ask her if she was mad at me. She wrote back of course not,

> let's

> > get together more often. I knew something was wrong, so I thought

> > " great, she is just lying to avoid a confrontation. " So I did not

> > want to burden her by cornering her during this busy time in her

> life,

> > so I backed off more. And I grieved on my own.

> >

> > After 18 months of this, she tells me she's getting a divorce. I

> ask

> > why and she says she's just not feeling it. He has already moved

> out

> > when she tells me this. She says, " I told him I just wasn't

> feeling

> > it anymore and he wants to know why and I say I just don't, so he

> kept

> > me up all night making me talk about it and then my alarm went off

> and

> > I had to go to work. Oh great. Now I've had no sleep. Thanks a

> lot.

> > I mean, how selfish can you be??? "

> >

> > I'm thinking when you end a 15 year relationship, your partner

> > deserves to talk about it until he's satisfied, and that's not

> > selfish. She could have taken the day off to sleep. The campaign

> > would not have crumbled.

> >

> > So months later she says we have to go for a drink so she can tell

> me

> > the real reason for her divorce. At this point, I'm tired of the

> > secrets and I don't know why we're still friends, but I go.

> >

> > I really held in high esteem. I thought she had the most

> > integrity of anyone I knew. I envied her tight family, and her

> > optimism and gaggle of friends.

> >

> > Turns out she was having an affair with a woman for *two years* and

> > that was the reason for the divorce. She's with a different woman

> > now. So when her husband made her stay up all night, he was

> probably

> > pulling a lot of crap out of her that she probably wouldn't fess up

> > to, dragging it on for hours. Her mother *begged* her not to leave

> > the husband, because *she* loved him as part of the family. I

> don't

> > know if she wanted her to just never tell him about the affair or

> what.

> >

> > So I said, " Wow, I wish you had told me something was up. I

> thought

> > you were mad at me for 2 years. " She smiles and exclaims

> > semi-excitedly " you're the 5th person who's said that! " And then

> it's

> > la-ti-da on to the next topic.

> >

> > In the middle of this disclosure, I ask her if she's had lesbian

> > experiences before and she just stares at me. She doesn't want to

> > answer. And that is her right. I guess I had an expectation that

> 8

> > years of being " close friends " would involve more disclosure and

> > trust, but I guess that is just not her. Or just not her with me.

> >

> > So she thinks I'm an ass because I'm not " cutting her slack " . I

> > should cut her some slack for all that she's been through (but I'm

> > like, you PUT yourself through that...) I should not be upset over

> > the snippiness and fake smiles and the feeling that something was

> > wrong. I asked her if she was mad at me and she said no...she

> didn't lie.

> >

> > I feel now like I just don't know her, and I never will.

> Whenever I

> > think about calling her again (we're not talking now), I think

> what is

> > the point? It's all fake. It's not like I expected her to tell me

> > she was having an affair, but the affair made me realize how

> little I

> > really know her. And it seems she's walking away from this with

> zero

> > self awareness. She seems to think that it was perfectly okay for

> her

> > to take all the time she needed to mess with the idea of being gay

> > (which she says she is not, BTW), on her husband's clock. And she

> > can't understand why he won't speak to her now, but still meets her

> > parent for dinner on occasion.

> >

> > Okay, what really bugs me about this too is that her husband had a

> > family sort of like mine, not demonstrative, and she *trained* him

> to

> > look happy to see her every time he saw her and make a big deal

> out of

> > it, like her mom does. She actually broke up with him because he

> > wasn't doing this. She made him, for the next 10 years, behave in

> the

> > way she thought was " loving " , yet she did not return the favor.

> It's

> > so fake!

> >

> > I know it is up to her how much of herself she wants to share with

> > someone. Every time I think of calling her I imagine spending the

> > rest of my life trying to " fake it " with her.

> >

> > Then I think, I don't have a lot of friends. Maybe I'm being

> too....I

> > don't know what.

> >

> > How would you guys feel in this situation.

> >

> > -Deanna

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks for your response, Kyla...I agree with you wholeheartedly.

I think it wasn't so much about me considering selling out, so much as

a dawning awareness that I'm going to have to at least know the rules

of the game, the politics of my academic department, etc. There's a

part of me that almost puritanically doesn't want anything to do with

even knowing about it, sort of stubbornly refusing to even learn. And

I think I need to get over that. Whether I use anything I learn or

not, I should at least know how some others that I have to interact

with are playing. There's nothing inherently moral about willful

ignorance.

Maybe I didn't want to know what the a--kissers were up to, because I

was afraid of turning into a fake just by knowing about them. I was

that scared and repulsed by the idea of being fake. But I'm beginning

to realize that I can know about anything I feel the need to, without

becoming tainted by the knowledge. I think it does have to do with

going NC and realizing that I am strong and that most of the time my

boundaries DO work. I definitely want to be a straight shooter, but

not everyone makes that choice, and it's wise to learn what the other

choices are. I can trust that even knowing the other options, won't

make me automatically go that route. I used to think I was

fundamentally bad, and so I had to avoid anything that might tempt me

to be any worse. It led me to be somewhat inflexible. Realizing that I

actually am a pretty good person makes me feel more comfortable

learning things that might be wise to know about later on.

Not sure if this makes any sense...sort of a tangental benefit of NC.

I'm not so afraid of being " tainted " by others' bad decisions, because

I know now I can make my own decisions and stick to them.

Love,

Vi

> > > > >

> > > > > I have this situation with a friendship that I am

> > > > still trying to

> > > > sort

> > > > > out in my head. This is sort of off topic, as

> > > > it's not about a

> > > > BPD in

> > > > > my life, but I'm wondering if my experience with

> > > > this is KO

> > > > related,

> > > > > and what you guys think of it.

> > > > >

> > > > > I met 8 years ago, and we seemed to become

> > > > fast friends. She

> > > > > was very friendly and positive and nice (very

> > > > unlike my

> > > > > family/childhood experience). She was living with

> > > > her parents at

> > > > 28,

> > > > > had never moved out and never intended to move

> > > > out. She said they

> > > > > were " roomies " and they just enjoyed one another's

> > > > company. She

> > > > told

> > > > > me she had a sister and a brother.

> > > > >

> > > > > She told me very little about her problems over

> > > > the years, so I

> > > > > thought she did not have any. When I would see

> > > > her family, her mom

> > > > > was immediately very warm and friendly, like

> > > > 's friends were

> > > > her

> > > > > friends. I was uncomfortable with the

> > > > over-the-top-ness of

> > > > this " I'm

> > > > > so happy to see you, big hug, big smile " thing, I

> > > > guess as I'm just

> > > > > too cynical, but I got used to it.

> > > > >

> > > > > Maybe 3 years into our friendship, she got

> > > > married, and I remember

> > > > > feeling a little confused about our

> > > > relationship...like were we

> > > > close

> > > > > enough that I would be invited to her wedding? I

> > > > was invited, and

> > > > > over the years I grew to trust the things she said

> > > > to me, like

> > > > that I

> > > > > was " part of the family " and part of her " inner

> > > > circle " . She was

> > > > the

> > > > > best friend a person could ever ask for in many

> > > > ways. A great

> > > > > listener, there when you needed her. I told her

> > > > everything, and

> > > > she

> > > > > kept it surface with me, but I did not realize she

> > > > was doing that.

> > > > >

> > > > > Then, 7 years in, she tells me she has a brother

> > > > with Downs, and he

> > > > > will be at Thanksgiving dinner at her house (which

> > > > I've been going

> > > > to

> > > > > for years). He lives in a group home. He's home

> > > > every Christmas,

> > > > and

> > > > > every Christmas she has told me about her day,

> > > > carefully omitting

> > > > this

> > > > > brother, for 7 years. She only told me,

> > > > apparently, because for

> > > > some

> > > > > reason, he was going to be there for Thanksgiving.

> > > > I felt kind of

> > > > > hurt by this.

> > > > >

> > > > > The last two years were rough for me in regards to

> > > > her. She was

> > > > > working on her first political campaign and was

> > > > very busy. So I

> > > > did

> > > > > what I do when someone is busy, and I backed off.

> > > > She also became

> > > > > snippy with me on occasion, although she was

> > > > completely oblivious

> > > > to

> > > > > this (as she is apparently really good at putting

> > > > on a happy

> > > > face).

> > > > > Then her mom became less happy to see me. Her

> > > > best friend was also

> > > > > snippy with me. I felt an energy shift one night

> > > > at dinner, and

> > > > in my

> > > > > perception, things never went back to normal

> > > > (ahhh...the KO

> > > > ability to

> > > > > detect mood changes...).

> > > > >

> > > > > I tried to blow it off and not take it personally,

> > > > but I did email

> > > > her

> > > > > and ask her if she was mad at me. She wrote back

> > > > of course not,

> > > > let's

> > > > > get together more often. I knew something was

> > > > wrong, so I thought

> > > > > " great, she is just lying to avoid a

> > > > confrontation. " So I did not

> > > > > want to burden her by cornering her during this

> > > > busy time in her

> > > > life,

> > > > > so I backed off more. And I grieved on my own.

> > > > >

> > > > > After 18 months of this, she tells me she's

> > > > getting a divorce. I

> > > > ask

> > > > > why and she says she's just not feeling it. He

> > > > has already moved

> > > > out

> > > > > when she tells me this. She says, " I told him I

> > > > just wasn't

> > > > feeling

> > > > > it anymore and he wants to know why and I say I

> > > > just don't, so he

> > > > kept

> > > > > me up all night making me talk about it and then

> > > > my alarm went off

> > > > and

> > > > > I had to go to work. Oh great. Now I've had no

> > > > sleep. Thanks a

> > > > lot.

> > > > > I mean, how selfish can you be??? "

> > > > >

> > > > > I'm thinking when you end a 15 year relationship,

> > > > your partner

> > > > > deserves to talk about it until he's satisfied,

> > > > and that's not

> > > > > selfish. She could have taken the day off to

> > > > sleep. The campaign

> > > > > would not have crumbled.

> > > > >

> > > > > So months later she says we have to go for a drink

> > > > so she can tell

> > > > me

> > > > > the real reason for her divorce. At this point,

> > > > I'm tired of the

> > > > > secrets and I don't know why we're still friends,

> > > > but I go.

> > > > >

> > > > > I really held in high esteem. I thought she

> > > > had the most

> > > > > integrity of anyone I knew. I envied her tight

> > > > family, and her

> > > > > optimism and gaggle of friends.

> > > > >

> > > > > Turns out she was having an affair with a woman

> > > > for *two years* and

> > > > > that was the reason for the divorce. She's with a

> > > > different woman

> > > > > now. So when her husband made her stay up all

> > > > night, he was

> > > > probably

> > > > > pulling a lot of crap out of her that she probably

> > > > wouldn't fess up

> > > > > to, dragging it on for hours. Her mother *begged*

> > > > her not to leave

> > > > > the husband, because *she* loved him as part of

> > > > the family. I

> > > > don't

> > > > > know if she wanted her to just never tell him

> > > > about the affair or

> > > > what.

> > > > >

> > > > > So I said, " Wow, I wish you had told me something

> > > > was up. I

> > > > thought

> > > > > you were mad at me for 2 years. " She smiles and

> > > > exclaims

> > > > > semi-excitedly " you're the 5th person who's said

> > > > that! " And then

> > > > it's

> > > > > la-ti-da on to the next topic.

> > > > >

> > > > > In the middle of this disclosure, I ask her if

> > > > she's had lesbian

> > > > > experiences before and she just stares at me. She

> > > > doesn't want to

> > > > > answer. And that is her right. I guess I had an

> > > > expectation that

> > > > 8

> > > > > years of being " close friends " would involve more

> > > > disclosure and

> > > > > trust, but I guess that is just not her. Or just

> > > > not her with me.

> > > > >

> > > > > So she thinks I'm an ass because I'm not " cutting

> > > > her slack " . I

> > > > > should cut her some slack for all that she's been

> > > > through (but I'm

> > > > > like, you PUT yourself through that...) I should

> > > > not be upset over

> > > > > the snippiness and fake smiles and the feeling

> > > > that something was

> > > > > wrong. I asked her if she was mad at me and she

> > > > said no...she

> > > > didn't lie.

> > > > >

> > > > > I feel now like I just don't know her, and I never

> > > > will.

> > > > Whenever I

> > > > > think about calling her again (we're not talking

> > > > now), I think

> > > > what is

> > > > > the point? It's all fake. It's not like I

> > > > expected her to tell me

> > > > > she was having an affair, but the affair made me

> > > > realize how

> > > > little I

> > > > > really know her. And it seems she's walking away

> > > > from this with

> > > > zero

> > > > > self awareness. She seems to think that it was

> > > > perfectly okay for

> > > > her

> > > > > to take all the time she needed to mess with the

> > > > idea of being gay

> > > > > (which she says she is not, BTW), on her husband's

> > > > clock. And she

> > > > > can't understand why he won't speak to her now,

> > > > but still meets her

> > > > > parent for dinner on occasion.

> > > > >

> > > > > Okay, what really bugs me about this too is that

> > > > her husband had a

> > > > > family sort of like mine, not demonstrative, and

> > > > she *trained* him

> > > > to

> > > > > look happy to see her every time he saw her and

> > > > make a big deal

> > > > out of

> > > > > it, like her mom does. She actually broke up with

> > > > him because he

> > > > > wasn't doing this. She made him, for the next 10

> > > > years, behave in

> > > > the

> > > > > way she thought was " loving " , yet she did not

> > > > return the favor.

> > > > It's

> > > > > so fake!

> > > > >

> > > > > I know it is up to her how much of herself she

> > > > wants to share with

> > > > > someone. Every time I think of calling her I

> > > > imagine spending the

> > > > > rest of my life trying to " fake it " with her.

> > > > >

> > > > > Then I think, I don't have a lot of friends.

> > > > Maybe I'm being

> > > > too....I

> > > > > don't know what.

> > > > >

> > > > > How would you guys feel in this situation.

> > > > >

> > > > > -Deanna

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> _____________________________________________________________________

> ______________

> > > You snooze, you lose. Get messages ASAP with AutoCheck

> > > in the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.

> > > http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_html.html

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Work is really a miniature version of how we conduct ourselves with

the world in general.

I think, like in any workplace, it just boils down to being

professional, getting your work done, getting along with the people

in your department and conducting yourself with due respect to the

higher ups, but basic respect and courtesy to everyone.

If your " work product " , work ethic and professionalism (meaning not

letting emotional extremes rule you while there -- counterintuitive

to what we were taught at home, I know!) are all the best you can

do, then the rest is up to God or fate. Conducting yourself with

emotional maturity will help you deal with the variety of

personalities that come across your path. Work is really a small

example of how you conduct yourself with the world in general.

I usually tried to stay detached from the extreme personalities at

work -- and I just got my work done. People are going to do

whatever they do, and it just takes some practice with detachment to

stay away from the extremes. If it's a job you don't enjoy, that's

a different matter.

Just be yourself, do your best, learn what you can, and the rest is

out of your control. You can't control who your co-workers are or

what they do, just like we can't control a BP. You can just control

yourself.

Your instincts will kick in if you really want to advance and you'll

figure out what it takes -- but I don't think you ever have to " sell

out " , especially if you find the concept distasteful. Sometimes,

it's just a matter of timing and the people in your path that

determine if your hard work will result in a promotion.

My husband always says his " pat on the back " comes in the form of a

paycheck. He works hard to please himself, not to perform for

higher-ups. He's been at his company 25 years. He's gotten

promotions along the way -- also seen bosses come and go -- but some

years passed quietly and not with much advancement, or they'd have

an organizational change and there would be new players, but he just

kept working hard. Kept his good reputation intact. He's a vice

president now, but he has never wavered from his strong work ethic,

even when it seemed no one noticed -- that wasn't his driving

force. Doing a good job was. He stayed out of office politics and

let the office nutjobs hang themselves. All the while, he kept

working hard. It was so he could leave the office every day knowing

HE did the best job he could, and that was all he needed. You do it

long enough -- someone's going to notice.

Promotions can be nice, but, in my opinion, you can't put a price on

a clear conscience that you did your job and conducted yourself

professionally.

Don't want to blather on -- just know that you can only control

yourself and hopefully you'll be able to enjoy your job, build a

professional reputation and be a contributor. I truly wish you the

best in that endeavor.

-Kyla

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I have this situation with a friendship that I am

> > > > > still trying to

> > > > > sort

> > > > > > out in my head. This is sort of off topic, as

> > > > > it's not about a

> > > > > BPD in

> > > > > > my life, but I'm wondering if my experience with

> > > > > this is KO

> > > > > related,

> > > > > > and what you guys think of it.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I met 8 years ago, and we seemed to become

> > > > > fast friends. She

> > > > > > was very friendly and positive and nice (very

> > > > > unlike my

> > > > > > family/childhood experience). She was living with

> > > > > her parents at

> > > > > 28,

> > > > > > had never moved out and never intended to move

> > > > > out. She said they

> > > > > > were " roomies " and they just enjoyed one another's

> > > > > company. She

> > > > > told

> > > > > > me she had a sister and a brother.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > She told me very little about her problems over

> > > > > the years, so I

> > > > > > thought she did not have any. When I would see

> > > > > her family, her mom

> > > > > > was immediately very warm and friendly, like

> > > > > 's friends were

> > > > > her

> > > > > > friends. I was uncomfortable with the

> > > > > over-the-top-ness of

> > > > > this " I'm

> > > > > > so happy to see you, big hug, big smile " thing, I

> > > > > guess as I'm just

> > > > > > too cynical, but I got used to it.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Maybe 3 years into our friendship, she got

> > > > > married, and I remember

> > > > > > feeling a little confused about our

> > > > > relationship...like were we

> > > > > close

> > > > > > enough that I would be invited to her wedding? I

> > > > > was invited, and

> > > > > > over the years I grew to trust the things she said

> > > > > to me, like

> > > > > that I

> > > > > > was " part of the family " and part of her " inner

> > > > > circle " . She was

> > > > > the

> > > > > > best friend a person could ever ask for in many

> > > > > ways. A great

> > > > > > listener, there when you needed her. I told her

> > > > > everything, and

> > > > > she

> > > > > > kept it surface with me, but I did not realize she

> > > > > was doing that.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Then, 7 years in, she tells me she has a brother

> > > > > with Downs, and he

> > > > > > will be at Thanksgiving dinner at her house (which

> > > > > I've been going

> > > > > to

> > > > > > for years). He lives in a group home. He's home

> > > > > every Christmas,

> > > > > and

> > > > > > every Christmas she has told me about her day,

> > > > > carefully omitting

> > > > > this

> > > > > > brother, for 7 years. She only told me,

> > > > > apparently, because for

> > > > > some

> > > > > > reason, he was going to be there for Thanksgiving.

> > > > > I felt kind of

> > > > > > hurt by this.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The last two years were rough for me in regards to

> > > > > her. She was

> > > > > > working on her first political campaign and was

> > > > > very busy. So I

> > > > > did

> > > > > > what I do when someone is busy, and I backed off.

> > > > > She also became

> > > > > > snippy with me on occasion, although she was

> > > > > completely oblivious

> > > > > to

> > > > > > this (as she is apparently really good at putting

> > > > > on a happy

> > > > > face).

> > > > > > Then her mom became less happy to see me. Her

> > > > > best friend was also

> > > > > > snippy with me. I felt an energy shift one night

> > > > > at dinner, and

> > > > > in my

> > > > > > perception, things never went back to normal

> > > > > (ahhh...the KO

> > > > > ability to

> > > > > > detect mood changes...).

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I tried to blow it off and not take it personally,

> > > > > but I did email

> > > > > her

> > > > > > and ask her if she was mad at me. She wrote back

> > > > > of course not,

> > > > > let's

> > > > > > get together more often. I knew something was

> > > > > wrong, so I thought

> > > > > > " great, she is just lying to avoid a

> > > > > confrontation. " So I did not

> > > > > > want to burden her by cornering her during this

> > > > > busy time in her

> > > > > life,

> > > > > > so I backed off more. And I grieved on my own.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > After 18 months of this, she tells me she's

> > > > > getting a divorce. I

> > > > > ask

> > > > > > why and she says she's just not feeling it. He

> > > > > has already moved

> > > > > out

> > > > > > when she tells me this. She says, " I told him I

> > > > > just wasn't

> > > > > feeling

> > > > > > it anymore and he wants to know why and I say I

> > > > > just don't, so he

> > > > > kept

> > > > > > me up all night making me talk about it and then

> > > > > my alarm went off

> > > > > and

> > > > > > I had to go to work. Oh great. Now I've had no

> > > > > sleep. Thanks a

> > > > > lot.

> > > > > > I mean, how selfish can you be??? "

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I'm thinking when you end a 15 year relationship,

> > > > > your partner

> > > > > > deserves to talk about it until he's satisfied,

> > > > > and that's not

> > > > > > selfish. She could have taken the day off to

> > > > > sleep. The campaign

> > > > > > would not have crumbled.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > So months later she says we have to go for a drink

> > > > > so she can tell

> > > > > me

> > > > > > the real reason for her divorce. At this point,

> > > > > I'm tired of the

> > > > > > secrets and I don't know why we're still friends,

> > > > > but I go.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I really held in high esteem. I thought she

> > > > > had the most

> > > > > > integrity of anyone I knew. I envied her tight

> > > > > family, and her

> > > > > > optimism and gaggle of friends.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Turns out she was having an affair with a woman

> > > > > for *two years* and

> > > > > > that was the reason for the divorce. She's with a

> > > > > different woman

> > > > > > now. So when her husband made her stay up all

> > > > > night, he was

> > > > > probably

> > > > > > pulling a lot of crap out of her that she probably

> > > > > wouldn't fess up

> > > > > > to, dragging it on for hours. Her mother *begged*

> > > > > her not to leave

> > > > > > the husband, because *she* loved him as part of

> > > > > the family. I

> > > > > don't

> > > > > > know if she wanted her to just never tell him

> > > > > about the affair or

> > > > > what.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > So I said, " Wow, I wish you had told me something

> > > > > was up. I

> > > > > thought

> > > > > > you were mad at me for 2 years. " She smiles and

> > > > > exclaims

> > > > > > semi-excitedly " you're the 5th person who's said

> > > > > that! " And then

> > > > > it's

> > > > > > la-ti-da on to the next topic.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > In the middle of this disclosure, I ask her if

> > > > > she's had lesbian

> > > > > > experiences before and she just stares at me. She

> > > > > doesn't want to

> > > > > > answer. And that is her right. I guess I had an

> > > > > expectation that

> > > > > 8

> > > > > > years of being " close friends " would involve more

> > > > > disclosure and

> > > > > > trust, but I guess that is just not her. Or just

> > > > > not her with me.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > So she thinks I'm an ass because I'm not " cutting

> > > > > her slack " . I

> > > > > > should cut her some slack for all that she's been

> > > > > through (but I'm

> > > > > > like, you PUT yourself through that...) I should

> > > > > not be upset over

> > > > > > the snippiness and fake smiles and the feeling

> > > > > that something was

> > > > > > wrong. I asked her if she was mad at me and she

> > > > > said no...she

> > > > > didn't lie.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I feel now like I just don't know her, and I never

> > > > > will.

> > > > > Whenever I

> > > > > > think about calling her again (we're not talking

> > > > > now), I think

> > > > > what is

> > > > > > the point? It's all fake. It's not like I

> > > > > expected her to tell me

> > > > > > she was having an affair, but the affair made me

> > > > > realize how

> > > > > little I

> > > > > > really know her. And it seems she's walking away

> > > > > from this with

> > > > > zero

> > > > > > self awareness. She seems to think that it was

> > > > > perfectly okay for

> > > > > her

> > > > > > to take all the time she needed to mess with the

> > > > > idea of being gay

> > > > > > (which she says she is not, BTW), on her husband's

> > > > > clock. And she

> > > > > > can't understand why he won't speak to her now,

> > > > > but still meets her

> > > > > > parent for dinner on occasion.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Okay, what really bugs me about this too is that

> > > > > her husband had a

> > > > > > family sort of like mine, not demonstrative, and

> > > > > she *trained* him

> > > > > to

> > > > > > look happy to see her every time he saw her and

> > > > > make a big deal

> > > > > out of

> > > > > > it, like her mom does. She actually broke up with

> > > > > him because he

> > > > > > wasn't doing this. She made him, for the next 10

> > > > > years, behave in

> > > > > the

> > > > > > way she thought was " loving " , yet she did not

> > > > > return the favor.

> > > > > It's

> > > > > > so fake!

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I know it is up to her how much of herself she

> > > > > wants to share with

> > > > > > someone. Every time I think of calling her I

> > > > > imagine spending the

> > > > > > rest of my life trying to " fake it " with her.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Then I think, I don't have a lot of friends.

> > > > > Maybe I'm being

> > > > > too....I

> > > > > > don't know what.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > How would you guys feel in this situation.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > -Deanna

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

_____________________________________________________________________

> > ______________

> > > > You snooze, you lose. Get messages ASAP with AutoCheck

> > > > in the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.

> > > >

http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_html.html

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Kyla. Your responses to this issue of mine (admittedly a

threadjack, sorry about that) are interesting and helpful.

My fada, despite other faults he may have, sounds a lot like your

husband. Hardworking and honest, he's built up a statewide reputation

as the man who can actually get things accomplished. He gives very

good advice about the " keep it real " aspect of work.

Problem is, I'm not actually working for a company right now, and may

not be for awhile. I'm in an academic department, where advancement

kind of *has* to happen, for things to be worthwhile. I could just

keep my head down and do the best I could, but in order to get the

most out of a major like mine, connections have to be made.

Furthermore, part of my career will involve a certain amount of

self-promotion and " who-you-know " . Typically, I pick the thing that's

hardest for me to do! You ever notice how that happens a lot? I guess

there's something I'm trying to make sure I learn this lifetime...

Love and hugs,

Vi

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I have this situation with a friendship that I am

> > > > > > still trying to

> > > > > > sort

> > > > > > > out in my head. This is sort of off topic, as

> > > > > > it's not about a

> > > > > > BPD in

> > > > > > > my life, but I'm wondering if my experience with

> > > > > > this is KO

> > > > > > related,

> > > > > > > and what you guys think of it.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I met 8 years ago, and we seemed to become

> > > > > > fast friends. She

> > > > > > > was very friendly and positive and nice (very

> > > > > > unlike my

> > > > > > > family/childhood experience). She was living with

> > > > > > her parents at

> > > > > > 28,

> > > > > > > had never moved out and never intended to move

> > > > > > out. She said they

> > > > > > > were " roomies " and they just enjoyed one another's

> > > > > > company. She

> > > > > > told

> > > > > > > me she had a sister and a brother.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > She told me very little about her problems over

> > > > > > the years, so I

> > > > > > > thought she did not have any. When I would see

> > > > > > her family, her mom

> > > > > > > was immediately very warm and friendly, like

> > > > > > 's friends were

> > > > > > her

> > > > > > > friends. I was uncomfortable with the

> > > > > > over-the-top-ness of

> > > > > > this " I'm

> > > > > > > so happy to see you, big hug, big smile " thing, I

> > > > > > guess as I'm just

> > > > > > > too cynical, but I got used to it.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Maybe 3 years into our friendship, she got

> > > > > > married, and I remember

> > > > > > > feeling a little confused about our

> > > > > > relationship...like were we

> > > > > > close

> > > > > > > enough that I would be invited to her wedding? I

> > > > > > was invited, and

> > > > > > > over the years I grew to trust the things she said

> > > > > > to me, like

> > > > > > that I

> > > > > > > was " part of the family " and part of her " inner

> > > > > > circle " . She was

> > > > > > the

> > > > > > > best friend a person could ever ask for in many

> > > > > > ways. A great

> > > > > > > listener, there when you needed her. I told her

> > > > > > everything, and

> > > > > > she

> > > > > > > kept it surface with me, but I did not realize she

> > > > > > was doing that.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Then, 7 years in, she tells me she has a brother

> > > > > > with Downs, and he

> > > > > > > will be at Thanksgiving dinner at her house (which

> > > > > > I've been going

> > > > > > to

> > > > > > > for years). He lives in a group home. He's home

> > > > > > every Christmas,

> > > > > > and

> > > > > > > every Christmas she has told me about her day,

> > > > > > carefully omitting

> > > > > > this

> > > > > > > brother, for 7 years. She only told me,

> > > > > > apparently, because for

> > > > > > some

> > > > > > > reason, he was going to be there for Thanksgiving.

> > > > > > I felt kind of

> > > > > > > hurt by this.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The last two years were rough for me in regards to

> > > > > > her. She was

> > > > > > > working on her first political campaign and was

> > > > > > very busy. So I

> > > > > > did

> > > > > > > what I do when someone is busy, and I backed off.

> > > > > > She also became

> > > > > > > snippy with me on occasion, although she was

> > > > > > completely oblivious

> > > > > > to

> > > > > > > this (as she is apparently really good at putting

> > > > > > on a happy

> > > > > > face).

> > > > > > > Then her mom became less happy to see me. Her

> > > > > > best friend was also

> > > > > > > snippy with me. I felt an energy shift one night

> > > > > > at dinner, and

> > > > > > in my

> > > > > > > perception, things never went back to normal

> > > > > > (ahhh...the KO

> > > > > > ability to

> > > > > > > detect mood changes...).

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I tried to blow it off and not take it personally,

> > > > > > but I did email

> > > > > > her

> > > > > > > and ask her if she was mad at me. She wrote back

> > > > > > of course not,

> > > > > > let's

> > > > > > > get together more often. I knew something was

> > > > > > wrong, so I thought

> > > > > > > " great, she is just lying to avoid a

> > > > > > confrontation. " So I did not

> > > > > > > want to burden her by cornering her during this

> > > > > > busy time in her

> > > > > > life,

> > > > > > > so I backed off more. And I grieved on my own.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > After 18 months of this, she tells me she's

> > > > > > getting a divorce. I

> > > > > > ask

> > > > > > > why and she says she's just not feeling it. He

> > > > > > has already moved

> > > > > > out

> > > > > > > when she tells me this. She says, " I told him I

> > > > > > just wasn't

> > > > > > feeling

> > > > > > > it anymore and he wants to know why and I say I

> > > > > > just don't, so he

> > > > > > kept

> > > > > > > me up all night making me talk about it and then

> > > > > > my alarm went off

> > > > > > and

> > > > > > > I had to go to work. Oh great. Now I've had no

> > > > > > sleep. Thanks a

> > > > > > lot.

> > > > > > > I mean, how selfish can you be??? "

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I'm thinking when you end a 15 year relationship,

> > > > > > your partner

> > > > > > > deserves to talk about it until he's satisfied,

> > > > > > and that's not

> > > > > > > selfish. She could have taken the day off to

> > > > > > sleep. The campaign

> > > > > > > would not have crumbled.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > So months later she says we have to go for a drink

> > > > > > so she can tell

> > > > > > me

> > > > > > > the real reason for her divorce. At this point,

> > > > > > I'm tired of the

> > > > > > > secrets and I don't know why we're still friends,

> > > > > > but I go.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I really held in high esteem. I thought she

> > > > > > had the most

> > > > > > > integrity of anyone I knew. I envied her tight

> > > > > > family, and her

> > > > > > > optimism and gaggle of friends.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Turns out she was having an affair with a woman

> > > > > > for *two years* and

> > > > > > > that was the reason for the divorce. She's with a

> > > > > > different woman

> > > > > > > now. So when her husband made her stay up all

> > > > > > night, he was

> > > > > > probably

> > > > > > > pulling a lot of crap out of her that she probably

> > > > > > wouldn't fess up

> > > > > > > to, dragging it on for hours. Her mother *begged*

> > > > > > her not to leave

> > > > > > > the husband, because *she* loved him as part of

> > > > > > the family. I

> > > > > > don't

> > > > > > > know if she wanted her to just never tell him

> > > > > > about the affair or

> > > > > > what.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > So I said, " Wow, I wish you had told me something

> > > > > > was up. I

> > > > > > thought

> > > > > > > you were mad at me for 2 years. " She smiles and

> > > > > > exclaims

> > > > > > > semi-excitedly " you're the 5th person who's said

> > > > > > that! " And then

> > > > > > it's

> > > > > > > la-ti-da on to the next topic.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > In the middle of this disclosure, I ask her if

> > > > > > she's had lesbian

> > > > > > > experiences before and she just stares at me. She

> > > > > > doesn't want to

> > > > > > > answer. And that is her right. I guess I had an

> > > > > > expectation that

> > > > > > 8

> > > > > > > years of being " close friends " would involve more

> > > > > > disclosure and

> > > > > > > trust, but I guess that is just not her. Or just

> > > > > > not her with me.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > So she thinks I'm an ass because I'm not " cutting

> > > > > > her slack " . I

> > > > > > > should cut her some slack for all that she's been

> > > > > > through (but I'm

> > > > > > > like, you PUT yourself through that...) I should

> > > > > > not be upset over

> > > > > > > the snippiness and fake smiles and the feeling

> > > > > > that something was

> > > > > > > wrong. I asked her if she was mad at me and she

> > > > > > said no...she

> > > > > > didn't lie.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I feel now like I just don't know her, and I never

> > > > > > will.

> > > > > > Whenever I

> > > > > > > think about calling her again (we're not talking

> > > > > > now), I think

> > > > > > what is

> > > > > > > the point? It's all fake. It's not like I

> > > > > > expected her to tell me

> > > > > > > she was having an affair, but the affair made me

> > > > > > realize how

> > > > > > little I

> > > > > > > really know her. And it seems she's walking away

> > > > > > from this with

> > > > > > zero

> > > > > > > self awareness. She seems to think that it was

> > > > > > perfectly okay for

> > > > > > her

> > > > > > > to take all the time she needed to mess with the

> > > > > > idea of being gay

> > > > > > > (which she says she is not, BTW), on her husband's

> > > > > > clock. And she

> > > > > > > can't understand why he won't speak to her now,

> > > > > > but still meets her

> > > > > > > parent for dinner on occasion.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Okay, what really bugs me about this too is that

> > > > > > her husband had a

> > > > > > > family sort of like mine, not demonstrative, and

> > > > > > she *trained* him

> > > > > > to

> > > > > > > look happy to see her every time he saw her and

> > > > > > make a big deal

> > > > > > out of

> > > > > > > it, like her mom does. She actually broke up with

> > > > > > him because he

> > > > > > > wasn't doing this. She made him, for the next 10

> > > > > > years, behave in

> > > > > > the

> > > > > > > way she thought was " loving " , yet she did not

> > > > > > return the favor.

> > > > > > It's

> > > > > > > so fake!

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I know it is up to her how much of herself she

> > > > > > wants to share with

> > > > > > > someone. Every time I think of calling her I

> > > > > > imagine spending the

> > > > > > > rest of my life trying to " fake it " with her.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Then I think, I don't have a lot of friends.

> > > > > > Maybe I'm being

> > > > > > too....I

> > > > > > > don't know what.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > How would you guys feel in this situation.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > -Deanna

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> _____________________________________________________________________

> > > ______________

> > > > > You snooze, you lose. Get messages ASAP with AutoCheck

> > > > > in the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.

> > > > >

> http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_html.html

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

" I'm in an academic department, where advancement

kind of *has* to happen, for things to be worthwhile. I could just

keep my head down and do the best I could, but in order to get the

most out of a major like mine, connections have to be made. "

I'm not sure how that differs with what I just said, but I wish you

well as you head into it.

{hugs}

Kyla

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I have this situation with a friendship that I am

> > > > > > > still trying to

> > > > > > > sort

> > > > > > > > out in my head. This is sort of off topic, as

> > > > > > > it's not about a

> > > > > > > BPD in

> > > > > > > > my life, but I'm wondering if my experience with

> > > > > > > this is KO

> > > > > > > related,

> > > > > > > > and what you guys think of it.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I met 8 years ago, and we seemed to become

> > > > > > > fast friends. She

> > > > > > > > was very friendly and positive and nice (very

> > > > > > > unlike my

> > > > > > > > family/childhood experience). She was living with

> > > > > > > her parents at

> > > > > > > 28,

> > > > > > > > had never moved out and never intended to move

> > > > > > > out. She said they

> > > > > > > > were " roomies " and they just enjoyed one another's

> > > > > > > company. She

> > > > > > > told

> > > > > > > > me she had a sister and a brother.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > She told me very little about her problems over

> > > > > > > the years, so I

> > > > > > > > thought she did not have any. When I would see

> > > > > > > her family, her mom

> > > > > > > > was immediately very warm and friendly, like

> > > > > > > 's friends were

> > > > > > > her

> > > > > > > > friends. I was uncomfortable with the

> > > > > > > over-the-top-ness of

> > > > > > > this " I'm

> > > > > > > > so happy to see you, big hug, big smile " thing, I

> > > > > > > guess as I'm just

> > > > > > > > too cynical, but I got used to it.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Maybe 3 years into our friendship, she got

> > > > > > > married, and I remember

> > > > > > > > feeling a little confused about our

> > > > > > > relationship...like were we

> > > > > > > close

> > > > > > > > enough that I would be invited to her wedding? I

> > > > > > > was invited, and

> > > > > > > > over the years I grew to trust the things she said

> > > > > > > to me, like

> > > > > > > that I

> > > > > > > > was " part of the family " and part of her " inner

> > > > > > > circle " . She was

> > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > best friend a person could ever ask for in many

> > > > > > > ways. A great

> > > > > > > > listener, there when you needed her. I told her

> > > > > > > everything, and

> > > > > > > she

> > > > > > > > kept it surface with me, but I did not realize she

> > > > > > > was doing that.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Then, 7 years in, she tells me she has a brother

> > > > > > > with Downs, and he

> > > > > > > > will be at Thanksgiving dinner at her house (which

> > > > > > > I've been going

> > > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > for years). He lives in a group home. He's home

> > > > > > > every Christmas,

> > > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > every Christmas she has told me about her day,

> > > > > > > carefully omitting

> > > > > > > this

> > > > > > > > brother, for 7 years. She only told me,

> > > > > > > apparently, because for

> > > > > > > some

> > > > > > > > reason, he was going to be there for Thanksgiving.

> > > > > > > I felt kind of

> > > > > > > > hurt by this.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > The last two years were rough for me in regards to

> > > > > > > her. She was

> > > > > > > > working on her first political campaign and was

> > > > > > > very busy. So I

> > > > > > > did

> > > > > > > > what I do when someone is busy, and I backed off.

> > > > > > > She also became

> > > > > > > > snippy with me on occasion, although she was

> > > > > > > completely oblivious

> > > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > this (as she is apparently really good at putting

> > > > > > > on a happy

> > > > > > > face).

> > > > > > > > Then her mom became less happy to see me. Her

> > > > > > > best friend was also

> > > > > > > > snippy with me. I felt an energy shift one night

> > > > > > > at dinner, and

> > > > > > > in my

> > > > > > > > perception, things never went back to normal

> > > > > > > (ahhh...the KO

> > > > > > > ability to

> > > > > > > > detect mood changes...).

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I tried to blow it off and not take it personally,

> > > > > > > but I did email

> > > > > > > her

> > > > > > > > and ask her if she was mad at me. She wrote back

> > > > > > > of course not,

> > > > > > > let's

> > > > > > > > get together more often. I knew something was

> > > > > > > wrong, so I thought

> > > > > > > > " great, she is just lying to avoid a

> > > > > > > confrontation. " So I did not

> > > > > > > > want to burden her by cornering her during this

> > > > > > > busy time in her

> > > > > > > life,

> > > > > > > > so I backed off more. And I grieved on my own.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > After 18 months of this, she tells me she's

> > > > > > > getting a divorce. I

> > > > > > > ask

> > > > > > > > why and she says she's just not feeling it. He

> > > > > > > has already moved

> > > > > > > out

> > > > > > > > when she tells me this. She says, " I told him I

> > > > > > > just wasn't

> > > > > > > feeling

> > > > > > > > it anymore and he wants to know why and I say I

> > > > > > > just don't, so he

> > > > > > > kept

> > > > > > > > me up all night making me talk about it and then

> > > > > > > my alarm went off

> > > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > I had to go to work. Oh great. Now I've had no

> > > > > > > sleep. Thanks a

> > > > > > > lot.

> > > > > > > > I mean, how selfish can you be??? "

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I'm thinking when you end a 15 year relationship,

> > > > > > > your partner

> > > > > > > > deserves to talk about it until he's satisfied,

> > > > > > > and that's not

> > > > > > > > selfish. She could have taken the day off to

> > > > > > > sleep. The campaign

> > > > > > > > would not have crumbled.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > So months later she says we have to go for a drink

> > > > > > > so she can tell

> > > > > > > me

> > > > > > > > the real reason for her divorce. At this point,

> > > > > > > I'm tired of the

> > > > > > > > secrets and I don't know why we're still friends,

> > > > > > > but I go.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I really held in high esteem. I thought she

> > > > > > > had the most

> > > > > > > > integrity of anyone I knew. I envied her tight

> > > > > > > family, and her

> > > > > > > > optimism and gaggle of friends.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Turns out she was having an affair with a woman

> > > > > > > for *two years* and

> > > > > > > > that was the reason for the divorce. She's with a

> > > > > > > different woman

> > > > > > > > now. So when her husband made her stay up all

> > > > > > > night, he was

> > > > > > > probably

> > > > > > > > pulling a lot of crap out of her that she probably

> > > > > > > wouldn't fess up

> > > > > > > > to, dragging it on for hours. Her mother *begged*

> > > > > > > her not to leave

> > > > > > > > the husband, because *she* loved him as part of

> > > > > > > the family. I

> > > > > > > don't

> > > > > > > > know if she wanted her to just never tell him

> > > > > > > about the affair or

> > > > > > > what.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > So I said, " Wow, I wish you had told me something

> > > > > > > was up. I

> > > > > > > thought

> > > > > > > > you were mad at me for 2 years. " She smiles and

> > > > > > > exclaims

> > > > > > > > semi-excitedly " you're the 5th person who's said

> > > > > > > that! " And then

> > > > > > > it's

> > > > > > > > la-ti-da on to the next topic.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > In the middle of this disclosure, I ask her if

> > > > > > > she's had lesbian

> > > > > > > > experiences before and she just stares at me. She

> > > > > > > doesn't want to

> > > > > > > > answer. And that is her right. I guess I had an

> > > > > > > expectation that

> > > > > > > 8

> > > > > > > > years of being " close friends " would involve more

> > > > > > > disclosure and

> > > > > > > > trust, but I guess that is just not her. Or just

> > > > > > > not her with me.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > So she thinks I'm an ass because I'm not " cutting

> > > > > > > her slack " . I

> > > > > > > > should cut her some slack for all that she's been

> > > > > > > through (but I'm

> > > > > > > > like, you PUT yourself through that...) I should

> > > > > > > not be upset over

> > > > > > > > the snippiness and fake smiles and the feeling

> > > > > > > that something was

> > > > > > > > wrong. I asked her if she was mad at me and she

> > > > > > > said no...she

> > > > > > > didn't lie.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I feel now like I just don't know her, and I never

> > > > > > > will.

> > > > > > > Whenever I

> > > > > > > > think about calling her again (we're not talking

> > > > > > > now), I think

> > > > > > > what is

> > > > > > > > the point? It's all fake. It's not like I

> > > > > > > expected her to tell me

> > > > > > > > she was having an affair, but the affair made me

> > > > > > > realize how

> > > > > > > little I

> > > > > > > > really know her. And it seems she's walking away

> > > > > > > from this with

> > > > > > > zero

> > > > > > > > self awareness. She seems to think that it was

> > > > > > > perfectly okay for

> > > > > > > her

> > > > > > > > to take all the time she needed to mess with the

> > > > > > > idea of being gay

> > > > > > > > (which she says she is not, BTW), on her husband's

> > > > > > > clock. And she

> > > > > > > > can't understand why he won't speak to her now,

> > > > > > > but still meets her

> > > > > > > > parent for dinner on occasion.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Okay, what really bugs me about this too is that

> > > > > > > her husband had a

> > > > > > > > family sort of like mine, not demonstrative, and

> > > > > > > she *trained* him

> > > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > look happy to see her every time he saw her and

> > > > > > > make a big deal

> > > > > > > out of

> > > > > > > > it, like her mom does. She actually broke up with

> > > > > > > him because he

> > > > > > > > wasn't doing this. She made him, for the next 10

> > > > > > > years, behave in

> > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > way she thought was " loving " , yet she did not

> > > > > > > return the favor.

> > > > > > > It's

> > > > > > > > so fake!

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I know it is up to her how much of herself she

> > > > > > > wants to share with

> > > > > > > > someone. Every time I think of calling her I

> > > > > > > imagine spending the

> > > > > > > > rest of my life trying to " fake it " with her.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Then I think, I don't have a lot of friends.

> > > > > > > Maybe I'm being

> > > > > > > too....I

> > > > > > > > don't know what.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > How would you guys feel in this situation.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > -Deanna

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> >

_____________________________________________________________________

> > > > ______________

> > > > > > You snooze, you lose. Get messages ASAP with AutoCheck

> > > > > > in the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.

> > > > > >

> > http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_html.html

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Vi,

I wanted to say something about the work environment earlier but didn't, so

please forgive my tardy response. As I've mentioned before, I'm in academia,

which is one of the weirder work environments I know of since no one can get

fired and full professors are supposed to get automatic respect just because of

what they have done and not how they act. You can imagine what strange power

abuses can result in such a situation. Unfortunately for me, I didn't play the

game very well in graduate school and managed to select an advisor who played

the game possibly even worse than I did (she did not do sufficient work and I

now kind of think of her as a 'fake,' someone who pretended to be much more

accomplished than she was...it came back and bit her in the butt, though, when

she was rejected for tenure and has taken a job at a much less prestigious

place). To top it off, I butted heads with some of the most abusive people in

our system and got on at least one bad side; this

person then saw that I was not given advantages that other students got. I

would say about half of my time in graduate school was detrimental for my career

and that I did not play the game well at all.

For the second half, I got better for several reasons. First, I tried to

steer clear of the harmful faculty (my shrink even suggested that I 'divorce' my

advisor, which was good advice...we now see each other only occasionally and I

don't keep her informed about every little thing I'm doing). Second, I tried to

find my allies: people who respected me for the work that I do. That has taken

a while and I still get nervous when dealing with these people, but after a few

years I feel more confident that I will not get screwed over by them. Of

course, I worked very hard for them (but I did that for everyone along the way).

Third, I did do some 'kissing ass,' but not in harmful ways. For instance, if

one of the administrators helped me with a problem, I would compliment them.

The compliments would be a bit overboard (like, 'You are the greatest

administrator ever!'), but were meant sincerely. It's easy to kiss up to

faculty: you just have to ask how their work is going

and they will give you a half-hour uninterrupted lecture! But I think there is

something in making sure that you ask people about how things are and

demonstrating genuine interest. Again, it's not really kissing ass but it is

going beyond what a lot of people bother to do. The strategy worked very well

and I think I came out of it better than I went in.

I'm still learning...now I am about to become the professor and I can see for

myself how I do!

is

---------------------------------

Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and

always stay connected to friends.

[Guest guest]

" As I've mentioned before, I'm in academia, which is one of the

weirder work environments I know of since no one can get fired and

full professors are supposed to get automatic respect just because of

what they have done and not how they act. "

I know that academia has its unique characteristics -- but so do

other jobs. I think the bigger picture is still the same: every

job has its job description -- if cultivating relationships (making

connections) is part of that list under the job title, then one must

do those things. If it's something a person isn't very good at,

they can take steps to get better at it.

I can think of several examples, other than academia, where

relationships must be cultivated -- that have a social component.

(in my personal experience at Museum of Fine Arts, we had to

cultivate donors, etc.), Lawyers, agents, brokers, sales, etc. So

many occupations are based on someone having strong interpersonal

skills. (I, for one, could never sell insurance! I don't fit the

stereotype!)

If it goes against one's grain or personality, then perhaps it

wasn't the best job choice for that person. I think the bigger

picture shows the basic principle still intact: Do your job

(whatever that entails), stay out of the emotional minefields as

best you can and take your best shot at it.

If the unique aspects of one's job don't suit one's personality or

value system -- let's take academia, for one example of many -- then

it's time to assess another career choice.

I know academia seems unique, but I really think the basic overall

principles still apply.....Do a good job, do your work (if

socializing is part of it, then get good at socializing) don't

entangle yourself with the nutjobs such that you're covered in mud --

socialize while staying out of the fray, and see if it's gratifying

to you.

-Kyla

>

> Hi Vi,

>

> I wanted to say something about the work environment earlier but

didn't, so please forgive my tardy response. As I've mentioned

before, I'm in academia, which is one of the weirder work

environments I know of since no one can get fired and full

professors are supposed to get automatic respect just because of

what they have done and not how they act. You can imagine what

strange power abuses can result in such a situation. Unfortunately

for me, I didn't play the game very well in graduate school and

managed to select an advisor who played the game possibly even worse

than I did (she did not do sufficient work and I now kind of think

of her as a 'fake,' someone who pretended to be much more

accomplished than she was...it came back and bit her in the butt,

though, when she was rejected for tenure and has taken a job at a

much less prestigious place). To top it off, I butted heads with

some of the most abusive people in our system and got on at least

one bad side; this

> person then saw that I was not given advantages that other

students got. I would say about half of my time in graduate school

was detrimental for my career and that I did not play the game well

at all.

>

> For the second half, I got better for several reasons. First, I

tried to steer clear of the harmful faculty (my shrink even

suggested that I 'divorce' my advisor, which was good advice...we

now see each other only occasionally and I don't keep her informed

about every little thing I'm doing). Second, I tried to find my

allies: people who respected me for the work that I do. That has

taken a while and I still get nervous when dealing with these

people, but after a few years I feel more confident that I will not

get screwed over by them. Of course, I worked very hard for them

(but I did that for everyone along the way). Third, I did do

some 'kissing ass,' but not in harmful ways. For instance, if one

of the administrators helped me with a problem, I would compliment

them. The compliments would be a bit overboard (like, 'You are the

greatest administrator ever!'), but were meant sincerely. It's easy

to kiss up to faculty: you just have to ask how their work is going

> and they will give you a half-hour uninterrupted lecture! But I

think there is something in making sure that you ask people about

how things are and demonstrating genuine interest. Again, it's not

really kissing ass but it is going beyond what a lot of people

bother to do. The strategy worked very well and I think I came out

of it better than I went in.

>

> I'm still learning...now I am about to become the professor and

I can see for myself how I do!

>

> is

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and

> always stay connected to friends.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Forgot to mention one very useful strategy: finding mentors who

have navigated the landmines before you, in a way you admire, and

learning from them. I've done that with success....

-Kyla

> >

> > Hi Vi,

> >

> > I wanted to say something about the work environment earlier

but

> didn't, so please forgive my tardy response. As I've mentioned

> before, I'm in academia, which is one of the weirder work

> environments I know of since no one can get fired and full

> professors are supposed to get automatic respect just because of

> what they have done and not how they act. You can imagine what

> strange power abuses can result in such a situation.

Unfortunately

> for me, I didn't play the game very well in graduate school and

> managed to select an advisor who played the game possibly even

worse

> than I did (she did not do sufficient work and I now kind of think

> of her as a 'fake,' someone who pretended to be much more

> accomplished than she was...it came back and bit her in the butt,

> though, when she was rejected for tenure and has taken a job at a

> much less prestigious place). To top it off, I butted heads with

> some of the most abusive people in our system and got on at least

> one bad side; this

> > person then saw that I was not given advantages that other

> students got. I would say about half of my time in graduate

school

> was detrimental for my career and that I did not play the game

well

> at all.

> >

> > For the second half, I got better for several reasons. First,

I

> tried to steer clear of the harmful faculty (my shrink even

> suggested that I 'divorce' my advisor, which was good advice...we

> now see each other only occasionally and I don't keep her informed

> about every little thing I'm doing). Second, I tried to find my

> allies: people who respected me for the work that I do. That has

> taken a while and I still get nervous when dealing with these

> people, but after a few years I feel more confident that I will

not

> get screwed over by them. Of course, I worked very hard for them

> (but I did that for everyone along the way). Third, I did do

> some 'kissing ass,' but not in harmful ways. For instance, if one

> of the administrators helped me with a problem, I would compliment

> them. The compliments would be a bit overboard (like, 'You are

the

> greatest administrator ever!'), but were meant sincerely. It's

easy

> to kiss up to faculty: you just have to ask how their work is going

> > and they will give you a half-hour uninterrupted lecture! But

I

> think there is something in making sure that you ask people about

> how things are and demonstrating genuine interest. Again, it's

not

> really kissing ass but it is going beyond what a lot of people

> bother to do. The strategy worked very well and I think I came

out

> of it better than I went in.

> >

> > I'm still learning...now I am about to become the professor

and

> I can see for myself how I do!

> >

> > is

> >

> >

> > ---------------------------------

> > Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and

> > always stay connected to friends.

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Oh, Lordy, don't get me started on the Mentor Search. That's been one

of the most hilarious and eye-opening parts of the last few years. In

some arenas in life, I've been lucky, In others, I haven't.

Let's just say my luck in the mentor arena was mostly the luch of

learning about a lot of very interesting personality disorders. Truly.

I think that the BPD information I've gleaned about my nada this year

has gone down a lot easier because of all the other kooky

faux-parental types who've been in my life since high school ended.

I don't know what was up with all of them, but they make for great

stories. FSU is a bit different, there are some genuinely cool folks

here to learn from, but I just have to get over the gun-shy I've got

from the last few nutcase " mentors " I managed to accumulate!

Seriously, that guy that grabbed my face in the Louvre and hollered at

me, out of the blue? Supposed to be my mentor. I've had even worse

luck there than with boyfriends, and that's saying something. All I

can do is laugh about it now, and try to choose better!

Love,

Vi

> > >

> > > Hi Vi,

> > >

> > > I wanted to say something about the work environment earlier

> but

> > didn't, so please forgive my tardy response. As I've mentioned

> > before, I'm in academia, which is one of the weirder work

> > environments I know of since no one can get fired and full

> > professors are supposed to get automatic respect just because of

> > what they have done and not how they act. You can imagine what

> > strange power abuses can result in such a situation.

> Unfortunately

> > for me, I didn't play the game very well in graduate school and

> > managed to select an advisor who played the game possibly even

> worse

> > than I did (she did not do sufficient work and I now kind of think

> > of her as a 'fake,' someone who pretended to be much more

> > accomplished than she was...it came back and bit her in the butt,

> > though, when she was rejected for tenure and has taken a job at a

> > much less prestigious place). To top it off, I butted heads with

> > some of the most abusive people in our system and got on at least

> > one bad side; this

> > > person then saw that I was not given advantages that other

> > students got. I would say about half of my time in graduate

> school

> > was detrimental for my career and that I did not play the game

> well

> > at all.

> > >

> > > For the second half, I got better for several reasons. First,

> I

> > tried to steer clear of the harmful faculty (my shrink even

> > suggested that I 'divorce' my advisor, which was good advice...we

> > now see each other only occasionally and I don't keep her informed

> > about every little thing I'm doing). Second, I tried to find my

> > allies: people who respected me for the work that I do. That has

> > taken a while and I still get nervous when dealing with these

> > people, but after a few years I feel more confident that I will

> not

> > get screwed over by them. Of course, I worked very hard for them

> > (but I did that for everyone along the way). Third, I did do

> > some 'kissing ass,' but not in harmful ways. For instance, if one

> > of the administrators helped me with a problem, I would compliment

> > them. The compliments would be a bit overboard (like, 'You are

> the

> > greatest administrator ever!'), but were meant sincerely. It's

> easy

> > to kiss up to faculty: you just have to ask how their work is going

> > > and they will give you a half-hour uninterrupted lecture! But

> I

> > think there is something in making sure that you ask people about

> > how things are and demonstrating genuine interest. Again, it's

> not

> > really kissing ass but it is going beyond what a lot of people

> > bother to do. The strategy worked very well and I think I came

> out

> > of it better than I went in.

> > >

> > > I'm still learning...now I am about to become the professor

> and

> > I can see for myself how I do!

> > >

> > > is

> > >

> > >

> > > ---------------------------------

> > > Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and

> > > always stay connected to friends.

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

They were, as you'd say, " high-functioning " --though I never could

figure out that qualitifcation. They seem less " funcional " to me, than

just really good at fooling people until they feel comfortable with

them, then the masks come off.

It was a combo of that, and being in circumstances where a lot was

always happening all at once, all the time. Whether that was an aspect

of the profession I was studying towards, or just my luck, I don't

know. I t didn't suit me, and so I changed majors to a much calmer and

saner one. It has helped me keep perspective on what I'm doing now,

though--so much easier!

Also, some were actually assigned, and in other circumstances, they

were the best of a very small lot.

I've met some really really kind, really helpful people, too; however,

they weren't in positions to really advise me. I basically just

comforted myself with their company, which probably kept me from going

stark raving mad.

It was a long seven years. Should never have broken that mirror...

Love,

Vi

> > > > >

> > > > > Hi Vi,

> > > > >

> > > > > I wanted to say something about the work environment

> earlier

> > > but

> > > > didn't, so please forgive my tardy response. As I've

> mentioned

> > > > before, I'm in academia, which is one of the weirder work

> > > > environments I know of since no one can get fired and full

> > > > professors are supposed to get automatic respect just because

> of

> > > > what they have done and not how they act. You can imagine

> what

> > > > strange power abuses can result in such a situation.

> > > Unfortunately

> > > > for me, I didn't play the game very well in graduate school

> and

> > > > managed to select an advisor who played the game possibly even

> > > worse

> > > > than I did (she did not do sufficient work and I now kind of

> think

> > > > of her as a 'fake,' someone who pretended to be much more

> > > > accomplished than she was...it came back and bit her in the

> butt,

> > > > though, when she was rejected for tenure and has taken a job

> at a

> > > > much less prestigious place). To top it off, I butted heads

> with

> > > > some of the most abusive people in our system and got on at

> least

> > > > one bad side; this

> > > > > person then saw that I was not given advantages that other

> > > > students got. I would say about half of my time in graduate

> > > school

> > > > was detrimental for my career and that I did not play the game

> > > well

> > > > at all.

> > > > >

> > > > > For the second half, I got better for several reasons.

> First,

> > > I

> > > > tried to steer clear of the harmful faculty (my shrink even

> > > > suggested that I 'divorce' my advisor, which was good

> advice...we

> > > > now see each other only occasionally and I don't keep her

> informed

> > > > about every little thing I'm doing). Second, I tried to find

> my

> > > > allies: people who respected me for the work that I do. That

> has

> > > > taken a while and I still get nervous when dealing with these

> > > > people, but after a few years I feel more confident that I

> will

> > > not

> > > > get screwed over by them. Of course, I worked very hard for

> them

> > > > (but I did that for everyone along the way). Third, I did do

> > > > some 'kissing ass,' but not in harmful ways. For instance, if

> one

> > > > of the administrators helped me with a problem, I would

> compliment

> > > > them. The compliments would be a bit overboard (like, 'You

> are

> > > the

> > > > greatest administrator ever!'), but were meant sincerely.

> It's

> > > easy

> > > > to kiss up to faculty: you just have to ask how their work is

> going

> > > > > and they will give you a half-hour uninterrupted lecture!

> But

> > > I

> > > > think there is something in making sure that you ask people

> about

> > > > how things are and demonstrating genuine interest. Again,

> it's

> > > not

> > > > really kissing ass but it is going beyond what a lot of people

> > > > bother to do. The strategy worked very well and I think I

> came

> > > out

> > > > of it better than I went in.

> > > > >

> > > > > I'm still learning...now I am about to become the

> professor

> > > and

> > > > I can see for myself how I do!

> > > > >

> > > > > is

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > ---------------------------------

> > > > > Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and

> > > > > always stay connected to friends.

> > > > >

> > > > >

[Guest guest]

I had the same issue with mentors - I studied in quite a specific

field and in that sense had little choice about who my mentors

were. I agree with Vi - these people are very good at fooling

people until they are " hooked " - perhaps this is more of a

narcissistic trait. Anyway, I was very easy to hook, so when these

people told me one day that i was brilliant and the next that they

had reread my article and really, it wasn't so good - hey, I figured

that of course they had just seen through ME and understood that I

was a fake and didn't deserve to be working with them...oh, what a

sick cycle.

Today I work in a quasi-academic environment, which can be quite

difficult because you do get these personalities in posititions

where they stay because they don't have to perform. For

institutional reasons it is difficult to fire them. I think I am

slowly coming to the realization that i don't have to remain in this

particular field, simply because i am not really so attached to it.

I am really leaning towards taking my background and using it in a

slightly lower-profile, but much more sane, environment.

Sara

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Hi Vi,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I wanted to say something about the work environment

> > earlier

> > > > but

> > > > > didn't, so please forgive my tardy response. As I've

> > mentioned

> > > > > before, I'm in academia, which is one of the weirder work

> > > > > environments I know of since no one can get fired and full

> > > > > professors are supposed to get automatic respect just

because

> > of

> > > > > what they have done and not how they act. You can imagine

> > what

> > > > > strange power abuses can result in such a situation.

> > > > Unfortunately

> > > > > for me, I didn't play the game very well in graduate

school

> > and

> > > > > managed to select an advisor who played the game possibly

even

> > > > worse

> > > > > than I did (she did not do sufficient work and I now kind

of

> > think

> > > > > of her as a 'fake,' someone who pretended to be much more

> > > > > accomplished than she was...it came back and bit her in

the

> > butt,

> > > > > though, when she was rejected for tenure and has taken a

job

> > at a

> > > > > much less prestigious place). To top it off, I butted

heads

> > with

> > > > > some of the most abusive people in our system and got on

at

> > least

> > > > > one bad side; this

> > > > > > person then saw that I was not given advantages that

other

> > > > > students got. I would say about half of my time in

graduate

> > > > school

> > > > > was detrimental for my career and that I did not play the

game

> > > > well

> > > > > at all.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > For the second half, I got better for several

reasons.

> > First,

> > > > I

> > > > > tried to steer clear of the harmful faculty (my shrink

even

> > > > > suggested that I 'divorce' my advisor, which was good

> > advice...we

> > > > > now see each other only occasionally and I don't keep her

> > informed

> > > > > about every little thing I'm doing). Second, I tried to

find

> > my

> > > > > allies: people who respected me for the work that I do.

That

> > has

> > > > > taken a while and I still get nervous when dealing with

these

> > > > > people, but after a few years I feel more confident that I

> > will

> > > > not

> > > > > get screwed over by them. Of course, I worked very hard

for

> > them

> > > > > (but I did that for everyone along the way). Third, I did

do

> > > > > some 'kissing ass,' but not in harmful ways. For

instance, if

> > one

> > > > > of the administrators helped me with a problem, I would

> > compliment

> > > > > them. The compliments would be a bit overboard

(like, 'You

> > are

> > > > the

> > > > > greatest administrator ever!'), but were meant sincerely.

> > It's

> > > > easy

> > > > > to kiss up to faculty: you just have to ask how their work

is

> > going

> > > > > > and they will give you a half-hour uninterrupted

lecture!

> > But

> > > > I

> > > > > think there is something in making sure that you ask

people

> > about

> > > > > how things are and demonstrating genuine interest. Again,

> > it's

> > > > not

> > > > > really kissing ass but it is going beyond what a lot of

people

> > > > > bother to do. The strategy worked very well and I think I

> > came

> > > > out

> > > > > of it better than I went in.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I'm still learning...now I am about to become the

> > professor

> > > > and

> > > > > I can see for myself how I do!

> > > > > >

> > > > > > is

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ---------------------------------

> > > > > > Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and

> > > > > > always stay connected to friends.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

[Guest guest]

This, exactly:

Anyway, I was very easy to hook, so when these

> people told me one day that i was brilliant and the next that they

> had reread my article and really, it wasn't so good - hey, I figured

> that of course they had just seen through ME and understood that I

> was a fake and didn't deserve to be working with them...oh, what a

> sick cycle.

They somehow get you goofed-up to where you think it's not you seeing

through them and feeling yucky about what you see, but really THEM

seeing through YOU, and your yucky feelings are what you deserve for

trying to fool them, you little impostor.

But out of the magnanimity of their mighty hearts, they'll keep you

on, because they see your promise...

(/knocks head into wall, repeatedly.)

It's better now...I think. It's a question of me surviving about 3

more years of academia, and then moving into a field with the right

balance of people not being allowed to stagnate too badly (and this

form nasty little kingdoms), but not too much high-pressure change,

right off the bat. I have a few places/organizatons in mind, and I'll

be in a good position to check them out before aiming at them...so

like I said, better now.

Now if I can just stck to my guns about skipping that possibly-BPD

friend's dinner tonight, I'll have pretty much all the nasty people

out of my life. Yay! I think it's humorous that I'm having these

flashes of, " Ohhh, ______ is gonna notice, she'll be irritated,

ohhhh. " One of her subjects will not be there! I'm sure I'll get a

" Where were you? " phone call. There's a part of me that's, like,

nervous about that, an automatic fearful need to smooth everything

over and sell out any attempt at independence I'm being put on the

griddle for. But you know what? To hell with that, and to hell with

people who do it! She's no friend of mine, never really was, I don't

answer to her or and I'm not her property. Yuck.

Love,

Vi

[Guest guest]

Hi Vi,

There's a reason a lot of people go into academia...it's because their

behavior would not be tolerated in any other job...and then they are supposed to

be mentors? Sad but true.

I'm having a bad academia time right now, so please forgive my grimness.

There are good aspects of it too. But some parts of the job are enough to make

you want to scream.

is

---------------------------------

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