Re: 'Real' love

[Guest guest]

A lot of my anger is because nada did some very cruel things and I believe she

did them knowingly (not all) out of meaness and did not care how much damage she

caused. She satisfied her drives and needs at our expense. We had no training.

We had no help. We had to keep it secret. We had to learn how to transcend

ourselves in order to be human. We had to learn how to supress, regress,

sacrifice, kowtow, appease, be an adult, disassociate, deny, add your own, the

list goes on. We were kids. That's why it gets difficult to feel compassion.

Besides, compassion is a trait BP's develop in their children so they can get

away with all that self-pity. It's not real.

Please disagree with me. Just because I'm writing this doesn't make it so. It

only makes me angry.

From: BUtifulGrace

To: WTOAdultChildren ; WTOChritian

Sent: Monday, May 15, 2006 10:49 PM

Subject: 'Real' love

One common theme I hear regarding BP's is that they do not really love they

only pretend to and love themself. I am having a hard time digesting that.

IMHO, it would be more accurate to say that they love the best they can with the

only way they know how, which is not healthy or functional. Dont they deserve

compassion for that? As a KO, I think I could list things nada did and

sacrifices she made that were meant to show me that she loved me. I am here and

much more functional than most. Doesnt that say something? Perhaps I need to

read Dobson's Tough Love....

BUtifulGrace

---------------------------------

Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates.

[Guest guest]

Hi Kathleen,

I struggle with this, too. I think it totally depends on the person -

I'm sure there are some nadas who truly do love their children,

despite being nadas. I don't believe mine is one of them. Like you

mentioned, my nada does cruel things intentionally and in a very

calculated way, and shows absolutely no remorse afterwards. In fact,

I think she gets some pleasure from being cruel - I believe it makes

her feel better when she can make someone else hurt.

That aspect of my nada makes me think she might also be a sociopath

(APD). But I'm not a therapist. I only know it's enough to keep me

away from her!

>

> A lot of my anger is because nada did some very cruel things and I

believe she did them knowingly (not all) out of meaness and did not

care how much damage she caused. She satisfied her drives and needs

at our expense. We had no training. We had no help. We had to

keep it secret. We had to learn how to transcend ourselves in order

to be human. We had to learn how to supress, regress, sacrifice,

kowtow, appease, be an adult, disassociate, deny, add your own, the

list goes on. We were kids. That's why it gets difficult to feel

compassion. Besides, compassion is a trait BP's develop in their

children so they can get away with all that self-pity. It's not

real.

>

> Please disagree with me. Just because I'm writing this doesn't

make it so. It only makes me angry.

>

>

>

> From: BUtifulGrace

> To: WTOAdultChildren ; WTOChritian

> Sent: Monday, May 15, 2006 10:49 PM

> Subject: 'Real' love

>

>

> One common theme I hear regarding BP's is that they do not

really love they only pretend to and love themself. I am having a

hard time digesting that. IMHO, it would be more accurate to say

that they love the best they can with the only way they know how,

which is not healthy or functional. Dont they deserve compassion

for that? As a KO, I think I could list things nada did and

sacrifices she made that were meant to show me that she loved me. I

am here and much more functional than most. Doesnt that say

something? Perhaps I need to read Dobson's Tough Love....

> BUtifulGrace

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously

low rates.

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

> A lot of my anger is because nada did some very cruel things and I

>believe she did them knowingly (not all) out of meaness and did not

>care how much damage she caused. She satisfied her drives and needs

at >our expense. We had no training. We had no help. We had to keep

it >secret. We had to learn how to transcend ourselves in order to be

>human. We had to learn how to supress, regress, sacrifice, kowtow,

>appease, be an adult, disassociate, deny, add your own, the list goes

>on. We were kids. That's why it gets difficult to feel compassion.

>Besides, compassion is a trait BP's develop in their children so they

>can get away with all that self-pity. It's not real.

>

> Please disagree with me. Just because I'm writing this doesn't make

it so. It only makes me angry.

>From: BUtifulGrace

>To: WTOAdultChildren ; WTOChritian

>Sent: Monday, May 15, 2006 10:49 PM

>Subject: 'Real' love

>One common theme I hear regarding BP's is that they do not really

>love they

>only pretend to and love themself. I am having a hard time digesting

>that.

>IMHO, it would be more accurate to say that they love the best they

>can with the

>only way they know how, which is not healthy or functional. Dont

>they deserve

>compassion for that? As a KO, I think I could list things nada did >and

>sacrifices she made that were meant to show me that she loved me. I

>am here and

>much more functional than most. Doesnt that say something? Perhaps

>I need to

>read Dobson's Tough Love....

BUtifulGrace

********I am here to tell you that your reality or truth IS valid and

true for you. Even if the same thing does not hold true for every

person here. Nada's are not carbon copies of each other. Yes, many

things they do are similar, but each one of them acts out on their

feelings in a different manner. I have learned from reading here that

many of you had it much tougher than I did. My nada wasn't much of a

witch. She spent a lot of time angry, but her punishments were

restricted mainly to guilt and feeling sorry for herself. Like Grace,

my mother did the best she could with the BPD traits she has. I truly

don't believe she was at all aware of what she was doing. She still

isn't. It has become such a pattern for her. I, too, had much buried

anger as I looked back and realized the amount of stress and emotional

suffering she had caused me.

>We had to learn how to supress, regress, sacrifice, kowtow,

>appease, be an adult, disassociate, deny, add your own, the list goes

>on. We were kids. That's why it gets difficult to feel compassion.

********Your list here is familiar to me. Everything but the

disassociation rings a bell. I was definitely made to be the parent,

to appease, to deny and to suffer much guilt. I have physical

auto-immune problems, allergies, diabetes, and I take an

anti-depressant. I attribute much of this to the stress I was born

into. As she has aged all of her bad traits have become magnified and

I am just grateful I found out about BPD two years ago. It has changed

my life because it has changed me.

I do feel compassion for her much of the time. She is the most

unhappy person I know on earth. She is much too old and too

determined that nothing is wrong with her to ever change at this point

in her life and will die in misery. She is just so needy that it is a

burden for me and my sisters. So really I can agree with you and

with Grace. We are all right in recognizing our own reality. In

spite of the similarities in our lives, no two of us really had the

exact same nada. I fully understand the feelings of all and do not

judge those who have gone no contact or who still feel so angry. It

takes a lifetime to understand and work through many of the problems

created by being a KO. I am just grateful to be on that path to

recovering myself and living a more full and happy life myself. Dee

[Guest guest]

Ah....the narcissistic side of BPD. That makes sense.

Good for you for recognizing and validating all those things about yourself.

I have a hard time with it still, and feeling like I deserved better. I am not

sure I can disagree with you because it seems completely correct. And today as

I think of the post I sent last night about 'real love', I am wondering why I

feel the need to analyze and understand her motives anyways. That isnt my job.

My job is to take care of me. Ugh! So much work this healing!

BGrace

Kathleen wrote:

A lot of my anger is because nada did some very cruel things and I believe she

did them knowingly (not all) out of meaness and did not care how much damage she

caused. She satisfied her drives and needs at our expense. We had no training.

We had no help. We had to keep it secret. We had to learn how to transcend

ourselves in order to be human. We had to learn how to supress, regress,

sacrifice, kowtow, appease, be an adult, disassociate, deny, add your own, the

list goes on. We were kids. That's why it gets difficult to feel compassion.

Besides, compassion is a trait BP's develop in their children so they can get

away with all that self-pity. It's not real.

Please disagree with me. Just because I'm writing this doesn't make it so. It

only makes me angry.

From: BUtifulGrace

To: WTOAdultChildren ; WTOChritian

Sent: Monday, May 15, 2006 10:49 PM

Subject: 'Real' love

One common theme I hear regarding BP's is that they do not really love they

only pretend to and love themself. I am having a hard time digesting that.

IMHO, it would be more accurate to say that they love the best they can with the

only way they know how, which is not healthy or functional. Dont they deserve

compassion for that? As a KO, I think I could list things nada did and

sacrifices she made that were meant to show me that she loved me. I am here and

much more functional than most. Doesnt that say something? Perhaps I need to

read Dobson's Tough Love....

BUtifulGrace

---------------------------------

Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates.

[Guest guest]

>

> One common theme I hear regarding BP's is that they do not really

love they only pretend to and love themself.

****I have to disagree w/this statement. I don't think the

BP 'pretends' to love. I don't think that is their primary

disfunction nor is that their primary modus operandi. I think the

problem is that they confuse hate and love so greatly that their

definition of love does not correspond nor mesh w/the greater

populaces definition of love. This is important when functioning as a

society- that we define the same words the same so that we are on the

same page. When someone believes robbing the bank for $100K dollars

is the same as a person earning 100K a year, then there is a break

down of semantics here- one person defines the means to the ends

differently and that definition is what keeps society functioning-

that we all agree to some simple definitions of what things mean. The

borderline's version of love is halted at the emotional level of a

two year old. I have no doubt in my mind that my two year old son

loves me even when he's trashing about throwing a temper tantrum and

doing unreasonable things to get attention, but I also know that his

primary overriding emotion at that moment is NOT love, but rather

anger/frustration at not yet understanding proper societal rules of

relationships in how to express and get what he needs to feel good

about himself. He's just not there yet. The difference between him

and my nada, however, is that he is also only using two word

utterances and simplistic language- intellectually he is also on the

level of a two year old whereas my mother is 56 years old and

intellectually at that age but emotionally at my son's age. Her

definition of love is primitive and immature at best. I would not

even go as far as saying as you said that she loves herself. I think

if she did love herself, she would try to get her emotional maturity

level up to the same level as her intellectual age bracket. As it

stands, I think she has love and anger and rage and hate deeply

confused and so her primitive acts of love are not ones the greater

views of society would agree define what we all want to constitute

love in a civilized world.

I am having a hard time digesting that.

***Why wouldn't you have a hard time? You were raised by someone who

is mentally ill whom you probably thought was normal most of your

life. When you find out black is actually white and the up is

actually down and that normal is actually abnormal why wouldn't it be

logical to have a hard time and be confused?

IMHO, it would be more accurate to say that they love the best they

can with the only way they know how, which is not healthy or

functional.

****Yes, perhaps they do love the best they can, but perhaps they do

not. I am not a borderline and I don't know. I only know that when I

grew older and more away from the borderline reality that I started

learning new things and trying new ways of reality. I wanted to be

better and tried to become better and I never gave up trying to find

a better way. I don't think I can say the same for my mother. I think

she does not try her best and does not want to grow b/c she is afraid

more than anything else and that fear is a certain comfort zone.

Other people have other comfort zones- they may hate their jobs but

not look for a new ones b/c they fear it may be worse than the one

they've got now or they are lazy. People are lazy sometimes. To say

they are seeking excellence or doing the best they can when they are

being lazy is not proper in my opinion. Whether my mom is lazy or

petrified or apathetic or whatever, I do not fully know nor

understand, but I am not on the same page w/you saying she is doing

the best she can. I know when I do the best I can and when I miss the

mark. I know that the borderline is typically smart enough to do

things in private w/those that they are closest to that they can get

away w/abusing and then turning around and showing a different face

to others. That says that their illness is 'situational' and in being

situational vs all the time crazy, they do not do their best. They

fall back on what is known rather than challenging themselves to grow

as human beings- controlling themselves and their words and their

actions. If they were all the time like this as the sociopath is,

then perhaps they truly are doing the best they can and I will agree

with you, but I can't agree on this b/c it is not my belief or

experience with this illness. Even therapists disagree on this point

though. Some believe they can not control themselves for neurological

reasons in intimate relationships that they value and others believe

they can work on behaviors to try and reprogram their brains. So we

are divided.

Dont they deserve compassion for that?

***Yes, they do deserve compassion. Sick people always deserve

compassion in my opinion. However, Webster's defines compassion

as 'sorrow for the sufferings or troubles of others; accompanied by

an urge to help; deep sympathy; pity.' And now that I've defined the

word compassion from a source that all of American society can say is

a reliable source for agreeing on what the word actually means,

Websters, I will also propose that the last person on the planet who

needs to be compassionate towards the borderline parent is the child

of a borderline. Sympathize? Perhaps- that definition does not

contain the word 'help' in it. A therapist or other person outside

the borderline's immediate world of intimate relationships is the

best person to try and help the borderline, not the abused person who

also carries a lifetime built of shame from the borderline parent and

with the borderline parent. Do you honestly believe that enabliing a

person is helping them? Do you believe the battered spouse who

says 'I know I can help him or her change' is truly the best person

to help the abuser change? If you do, then you fly in the face of all

of modern psychological research and so it is w/the abused child of a

mentally deranged parent. They have experienced so much abuse that

they are not the best people by far to 'help' the abuser change. In

fact they may prolong the healing process by their denial as well as

their ego which is too grand is saying 'I can solve all the

problems'. Sometimes they can not, but sympathy is something I feel

greatly for my mom. She is sick and ill and warped and out there and

I think that is a sucky way to exist. But I have tried to help and

realize my ego stands most in the way. I'm not qualified and in

trying to help, I hurt her all the more by letting her continue down

her course of self-destruction and holding on to her definition of a

warped view of love that is never challenged as long as I buy into

her reality. I do her nor me any favors.

As a KO, I think I could list things nada did and sacrifices she

made that were meant to show me that she loved me.

****Is there a KO out there that probably doesn't have stories

of 'sacrifice' from their bp mother or father? The problem again is

in the semantics and definitions of words. Sacrifice according to

Webster's means 'the process of giving up, destroying, permitting

injury to or forgoing something valued for the sake of a more

pressing claim'. Sacrifice also comes from the word 'sacred' and

literally means 'to make sacred'. I am not altogether sure that the

borderlines 'giving up' of things helps to make the relationships in

his or her life 'sacred'. If they give of material things inleui of

giving up of mental headgames, does that truly add value to the

relationship- does it make the relationship sacred, do they truly

give up something more valuable for a more pressing claim? Do they

give up of their defense mechanisms for the sake of their children or

their marriage? Something they value more than anything- their

defense mechanisms- for the sake of a relationship that the world

would define as more valuable than anything else- one's children-

laying down one's life and destructive habits for the sake of one's

progeny. And so do they really sacrifice or is a token offering meant

to divert from the really pressing issues internally of their mental

illness. I propose that a true sacrifice on the part of the

borderline would be to get themselves proper mental health- to reach

out for help and to be honest- not in the material gifts or the

giving of smaller offerings that are later regretted or taken back.

Material gifts can never compare to the gift of 'self' in making a

relationship truly sacred and therefore I don't know that I can agree

that my mother has really and truly sacrificed in the fullest

definition of the word or what I have seen in other people- some

borderlines who truly address their issues and try and change.

I am here and much more functional than most.

***Do you mean most here or most in general society? I think it is

like my psychiatrist sister-in-law said that people gravitate for the

most part towards that which is healthy and normal and so to give

credit to my mother for the graces and opportunities that have come

my way is not altogether fair to me or to the universe or other

relationships that have come my way that have taught me more of what

healthy love looks and feels like. I am pretty functional, but I

don't credit my mother with that. She did do some good things and to

see her as totally evil and bad is to see her the way that a

borderline sees the world- no one is all good or bad. I took

advantage of those good things such as my former step-dad and my aunt

and clung to those relationships that taught me different definitions

of love. I saw that those people were more at peace even w/their

dysfunctions that nada and so I emmulated what they did. I have

succeeded in spite of my relationship w/my mother, not because of it.

But that doesn't mean she hasn't done a few good things here and

there. No one is all bad even though they'd have us believe as such

and that is perhaps the KOs legacy- seeing that no one is all good or

all bad and certainly not self or their dysfunctional mother or

father.

Doesnt that say something? Perhaps I need to read Dobson's Tough

Love....

***Never read it. Can't comment. Sorry.

Kerrie

> BUtifulGrace

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low

rates.

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

Thanks so much. Welcome to the land out of OZ- hope to see more of

your posts. I like lurking too and just reading sometimes and not

always responding as I get a lot of other posters that help me out

but I don't always feel like I can write the right words and so I

just skip out on those days (its a perfectionism in me I'm tryin to

work on- just to write when I am not always perfectly articulate

w/what I'm trying to say- I think its good sometimes to work on

miscommunications like the one I just had w/mg just b/c it means to

me that I'm working more on being wrong or imperfect w/o having to

feel like I'm totally rejected and like someone reads sooo much into

what I'm trying to say like nada. I'm also learning this in my

marriage w/miscommunications and not taking it so personal and so I'm

definitely trying to journal more in private offline just to help me

get at least words i'm trying to say out there- kwim?)

Look forward to reading some of your posts!

Kerrie

> >

> > One common theme I hear regarding BP's is that they do not

really

> love they only pretend to and love themself.

> ****I have to disagree w/this statement. I don't think the

> BP 'pretends' to love. I don't think that is their primary

> disfunction nor is that their primary modus operandi. I think the

> problem is that they confuse hate and love so greatly that their

> definition of love does not correspond nor mesh w/the greater

> populaces definition of love. This is important when functioning

as a

> society- that we define the same words the same so that we are on

the

> same page. When someone believes robbing the bank for $100K dollars

> is the same as a person earning 100K a year, then there is a break

> down of semantics here- one person defines the means to the ends

> differently and that definition is what keeps society functioning-

> that we all agree to some simple definitions of what things mean.

The

> borderline's version of love is halted at the emotional level of a

> two year old. I have no doubt in my mind that my two year old son

> loves me even when he's trashing about throwing a temper tantrum

and

> doing unreasonable things to get attention, but I also know that

his

> primary overriding emotion at that moment is NOT love, but rather

> anger/frustration at not yet understanding proper societal rules

of

> relationships in how to express and get what he needs to feel good

> about himself. He's just not there yet. The difference between him

> and my nada, however, is that he is also only using two word

> utterances and simplistic language- intellectually he is also on

the

> level of a two year old whereas my mother is 56 years old and

> intellectually at that age but emotionally at my son's age. Her

> definition of love is primitive and immature at best. I would not

> even go as far as saying as you said that she loves herself. I

think

> if she did love herself, she would try to get her emotional

maturity

> level up to the same level as her intellectual age bracket. As it

> stands, I think she has love and anger and rage and hate deeply

> confused and so her primitive acts of love are not ones the

greater

> views of society would agree define what we all want to constitute

> love in a civilized world.

>

>

>

> I am having a hard time digesting that.

> ***Why wouldn't you have a hard time? You were raised by someone

who

> is mentally ill whom you probably thought was normal most of your

> life. When you find out black is actually white and the up is

> actually down and that normal is actually abnormal why wouldn't it

be

> logical to have a hard time and be confused?

>

> IMHO, it would be more accurate to say that they love the best

they

> can with the only way they know how, which is not healthy or

> functional.

> ****Yes, perhaps they do love the best they can, but perhaps they

do

> not. I am not a borderline and I don't know. I only know that when

I

> grew older and more away from the borderline reality that I

started

> learning new things and trying new ways of reality. I wanted to be

> better and tried to become better and I never gave up trying to

find

> a better way. I don't think I can say the same for my mother. I

think

> she does not try her best and does not want to grow b/c she is

afraid

> more than anything else and that fear is a certain comfort zone.

> Other people have other comfort zones- they may hate their jobs

but

> not look for a new ones b/c they fear it may be worse than the one

> they've got now or they are lazy. People are lazy sometimes. To

say

> they are seeking excellence or doing the best they can when they

are

> being lazy is not proper in my opinion. Whether my mom is lazy or

> petrified or apathetic or whatever, I do not fully know nor

> understand, but I am not on the same page w/you saying she is

doing

> the best she can. I know when I do the best I can and when I miss

the

> mark. I know that the borderline is typically smart enough to do

> things in private w/those that they are closest to that they can

get

> away w/abusing and then turning around and showing a different face

> to others. That says that their illness is 'situational' and in

being

> situational vs all the time crazy, they do not do their best. They

> fall back on what is known rather than challenging themselves to

grow

> as human beings- controlling themselves and their words and their

> actions. If they were all the time like this as the sociopath is,

> then perhaps they truly are doing the best they can and I will

agree

> with you, but I can't agree on this b/c it is not my belief or

> experience with this illness. Even therapists disagree on this

point

> though. Some believe they can not control themselves for

neurological

> reasons in intimate relationships that they value and others

believe

> they can work on behaviors to try and reprogram their brains. So

we

> are divided.

>

> Dont they deserve compassion for that?

> ***Yes, they do deserve compassion. Sick people always deserve

> compassion in my opinion. However, Webster's defines compassion

> as 'sorrow for the sufferings or troubles of others; accompanied

by

> an urge to help; deep sympathy; pity.' And now that I've defined

the

> word compassion from a source that all of American society can say

is

> a reliable source for agreeing on what the word actually means,

> Websters, I will also propose that the last person on the planet

who

> needs to be compassionate towards the borderline parent is the

child

> of a borderline. Sympathize? Perhaps- that definition does not

> contain the word 'help' in it. A therapist or other person outside

> the borderline's immediate world of intimate relationships is the

> best person to try and help the borderline, not the abused person

who

> also carries a lifetime built of shame from the borderline parent

and

> with the borderline parent. Do you honestly believe that enabliing

a

> person is helping them? Do you believe the battered spouse who

> says 'I know I can help him or her change' is truly the best

person

> to help the abuser change? If you do, then you fly in the face of

all

> of modern psychological research and so it is w/the abused child of

a

> mentally deranged parent. They have experienced so much abuse that

> they are not the best people by far to 'help' the abuser change.

In

> fact they may prolong the healing process by their denial as well

as

> their ego which is too grand is saying 'I can solve all the

> problems'. Sometimes they can not, but sympathy is something I

feel

> greatly for my mom. She is sick and ill and warped and out there

and

> I think that is a sucky way to exist. But I have tried to help and

> realize my ego stands most in the way. I'm not qualified and in

> trying to help, I hurt her all the more by letting her continue

down

> her course of self-destruction and holding on to her definition of

a

> warped view of love that is never challenged as long as I buy into

> her reality. I do her nor me any favors.

>

>

>

> As a KO, I think I could list things nada did and sacrifices she

> made that were meant to show me that she loved me.

> ****Is there a KO out there that probably doesn't have stories

> of 'sacrifice' from their bp mother or father? The problem again

is

> in the semantics and definitions of words. Sacrifice according to

> Webster's means 'the process of giving up, destroying, permitting

> injury to or forgoing something valued for the sake of a more

> pressing claim'. Sacrifice also comes from the word 'sacred' and

> literally means 'to make sacred'. I am not altogether sure that

the

> borderlines 'giving up' of things helps to make the relationships

in

> his or her life 'sacred'. If they give of material things inleui

of

> giving up of mental headgames, does that truly add value to the

> relationship- does it make the relationship sacred, do they truly

> give up something more valuable for a more pressing claim? Do they

> give up of their defense mechanisms for the sake of their children

or

> their marriage? Something they value more than anything- their

> defense mechanisms- for the sake of a relationship that the world

> would define as more valuable than anything else- one's children-

> laying down one's life and destructive habits for the sake of

one's

> progeny. And so do they really sacrifice or is a token offering

meant

> to divert from the really pressing issues internally of their

mental

> illness. I propose that a true sacrifice on the part of the

> borderline would be to get themselves proper mental health- to

reach

> out for help and to be honest- not in the material gifts or the

> giving of smaller offerings that are later regretted or taken

back.

> Material gifts can never compare to the gift of 'self' in making a

> relationship truly sacred and therefore I don't know that I can

agree

> that my mother has really and truly sacrificed in the fullest

> definition of the word or what I have seen in other people- some

> borderlines who truly address their issues and try and change.

>

>

> I am here and much more functional than most.

> ***Do you mean most here or most in general society? I think it is

> like my psychiatrist sister-in-law said that people gravitate for

the

> most part towards that which is healthy and normal and so to give

> credit to my mother for the graces and opportunities that have come

> my way is not altogether fair to me or to the universe or other

> relationships that have come my way that have taught me more of

what

> healthy love looks and feels like. I am pretty functional, but I

> don't credit my mother with that. She did do some good things and

to

> see her as totally evil and bad is to see her the way that a

> borderline sees the world- no one is all good or bad. I took

> advantage of those good things such as my former step-dad and my

aunt

> and clung to those relationships that taught me different

definitions

> of love. I saw that those people were more at peace even w/their

> dysfunctions that nada and so I emmulated what they did. I have

> succeeded in spite of my relationship w/my mother, not because of

it.

> But that doesn't mean she hasn't done a few good things here and

> there. No one is all bad even though they'd have us believe as

such

> and that is perhaps the KOs legacy- seeing that no one is all good

or

> all bad and certainly not self or their dysfunctional mother or

> father.

>

> Kerrie

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Kerrie,

I'm reading your response on " real love " *very late* but I wanted to

thank you for a very thoughtful message.

> I know that the borderline is typically smart enough to do

> things in private w/those that they are closest to that they can get

> away w/abusing and then turning around and showing a different face

> to others. That says that their illness is 'situational' and in being

> situational vs all the time crazy, they do not do their best. They

> fall back on what is known rather than challenging themselves to grow

> as human beings- controlling themselves and their words and their

> actions. If they were all the time like this as the sociopath is,

> then perhaps they truly are doing the best they can and I will agree

> with you, but I can't agree on this b/c it is not my belief or

> experience with this illness. Even therapists disagree on this point

> though. Some believe they can not control themselves for neurological

> reasons in intimate relationships that they value and others believe

> they can work on behaviors to try and reprogram their brains. So we

> are divided.

It's interesting to read that therapists are divided on whether a

person with BPD can control themselves or not. But your point that

people with BPD usually can control themselves around strangers, but

not around people who are closer, is a very good one. It makes me

think that the person with BPD has some responsibility to try to

improve their behavior. There is a big difference between having an

illness but trying to get better vs. having an illness and using

it as an excuse for bad behavior. This can happen with a physical

illness, too. It's not an excuse to be a victim.

> When you find out black is actually white and the up is

> actually down and that normal is actually abnormal why wouldn't

> it be logical to have a hard time and be confused?

So true. My therapist tried to explain to me how my mother's entire

world view is based on completely faulty assumptions. If you start out

with " the sun rises in the west " (or, as you put it, " black is white " )

then of course the logical structure based on that will be bizarre.

And that will lead to what seems to us very strange behaviors. And

it is not always in the person's best interest. Some of the things

my mother did over the years were very self destructive in spite of

her usually seeming to be quite selfish. Meaning that her behavior

was often quite illogical from our point of view. (e.g., why attack

your daughter if she is giving you both financial and emotional

support?)

Anyway, it was nice to read it and think about what love means. I

loved your example of the two year old! I feel very lucky that I

don't have BPD and that I'm able to experience happiness and mature

love in my own life.

Hugs,

Marjorie

http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/ahimsa

[Guest guest]

>

> My therapist tried to explain to me how my mother's entire

>world view is based on completely faulty assumptions. If you start out

>with " the sun rises in the west " (or, as you put it, " black is white " )

>then of course the logical structure based on that will be bizarre.

>And that will lead to what seems to us very strange behaviors. And

>it is not always in the person's best interest. Some of the things

>my mother did over the years were very self destructive in spite of

>her usually seeming to be quite selfish. Meaning that her behavior

>was often quite illogical from our point of view. (e.g., why attack

>your daughter if she is giving you both financial and emotional

>support?)

I have said before that because of my mom's crazy belief system she

makes it impossible to give her the thing she wants most. Her

desperate attempt to control us and keep us tight in her fist forces

us to move farther and farther awayfrom her and put up boundaries.

What a sad existence. Dee