Free Will

[Guest guest]

Thanks Bill for your comments yesterday.

It's funny how you think you are being insightful when really you are not. There's a psychologist/ doctor out there who say's the reason why we have so much depression nowadays is because we are not out there in the fields doing real hard work generating lots of healthy chemicals in our bodies and soaking up loads of good sunshine. Instead we're in offices using our minds where are able to think all sorts of rubbish. Sounds just like ACT doesn't it? I don't know where I read this - it might have been on Dr Mercola's site; that rascal on the lunatic Right - I quite like him though.

Your comment hit me right in the face and made me realise what ACT is really about. Get out of your mind and into your life. Defusion, meditation, mindfulness, etc, are just tools to get you there, whereas I have been using these methods as another interesting intellectual pursuit. Those tools are nowhere near as important as getting a life. I know this is obvious to everyone, including me, but I didn't realise how much I was intellectualising it. said once before that defusion was over rated and that values were more important. For me getting out there and having some fun is the most important thing right now.

That was like real good therapy session to me as you caught me so off guard and drove the point home when I was at my lofty height i.e. causing maximum impact. That put some real insight into me.

Thanks again,

Kavy> >> > So where did the urge to not follow his original urge come from? > Did > > he decide to have that urge?> > > > If we20motivate ourselves in some direction - where did the > idea/urge > > to motivate ourselves come from?> > > > Having an urge override another urge is no argument for free will > (or > > half free will). It's just an interesting battle inside our minds -> > > that's my view at least. All urges, decisions, thoughts, emotions > are > > caused by things in our environment, memory, emotions which & nb sp;> creates > > new memories and emotions. From memories, from values, from > > experience, from random chemical changes in our head combined with > the > > environment springs what you may call life and decisions in the > > present moment.> > > > The flaw in free will thinking is that we see events isolated - as > > having a beginning and an end. "He pushed the button, and then the > > door opened. Therefore he chose to open the door." But what made > him > > push the button? What made=2 0him open the door? What made him want > to > > open the door? And for any answer to that you can continue to go > back > > in time and keep asking that same kind of question. Ultimately > it's > > the big bang, God, or whereever you think it all started (I think > it > > didn't - because that's just another way of looking for a > beginning > > where someone had free will, another story.)> > > > We say we choose a value - but what makes us favor a value over > another?> > We say we choose to break a commitment - but wh> at made us reach > that > > sum total of that decision?> > > > It's all causation. And we are just inside watching this reality > > unfold as a movie. We just happen to hear all the negotiations > that > > one part of our mind makes with itself. But we have no say in that > > conversation. When we realize that, it's not even us realizing it -> > > it's our mind realizing it. And we can take neither credit or blame.> > > > An ACT related metaphor for that may be people riding roller > coasters. > > Some people are scared, and believe they have more control of the > > situation if they scream, get tense, close their eyes, command the > > roller coaster to stop etc (and actually they may believe it works > > because eventually - it will!). Other people know that when they > first > > are in the wagon, they can't do anything, there's no control, so > they > > may just as well enjoy the ride. They lean back and relax.> > > > > > > > People in here may think that they chose to get into ACT. But > where > > did you hear about it for the first tim e? Did you decide before > you > > knew about ACT, to find out about ACT? Of course not. It just > > happened. Why didn't you reject ACT? Probably because it resonated > > with something you heard about in the past, or because someone you > > trusted recommended it. So, did you at any point just decide to > have > > that former knowledge, or didn't> it also just happen? When did you > > decide to trust that person? Did you decide to meet that person? > Did > > you decide to be born? Did you decide to have the value of > proactively > > improving your life? etc. etc.> > > > Free will exist in mental stories we create. Free will requires > that > > we only look at a very limited field in time. If the beginning of > the > > story is "He decided to push the button and he did so", it seems > > logical - of course, that's a decision, it's free will. But if you > > digg deeper you see that that decision was made on 1000 of factors > > that all was output/input in a caused manner since that person was > > born. And even the event that he was born, even when he was > conceived > > is part of the reason why in that exact moment he opene d the door.> > > > That's my view at least - I never decided to write this mail, it > just > > happened (some people would say I'm procrastinating on my essay - > I > > say procrastination is a nasty concept that removes us from the > > ultimate truth that stuff just happens > > > > > > - Jeppe> > > > > > PS. I believe that free will is the most stress-inducing belief > ever. > > You know, people that feel bad usually does so in two layers: 1) > They > > feel bad. 2) They feel bad about feeling bad.> > > > If they realized that they never decided to feel bad #1, they > wouldn't > > > feel bad #2. And then #1 would probably also solve itself much > faster. > > I think this is what ACT is really ab out: Just watching reality, > > seeing that it's all just happening.> > > > And when we realize that it's not US that have to accept things - > but > > actually our brain that has to accept stuff, and that that process > is > > completely out of our control, then we're really in a state of > bliss > > (even though our mind may be telling itself how stupid it is, but -> > > you know. The mind will grow up one day. Just stop listening. > You're > > safe inside yourself. Just lean back and enjoy the ride. (Which is -> > > of course - much easier said than done)> > > > > > -- > > Jeppe Kabell> > kabell@> > > > UK: +44 7549947410> > DK: +45 31102211> > > > Usher Halls, flat 176> > The Burroughs> > Hendon> > London NW4 4HE> > > > http://www.linkedin.com/in/kabell> > http://thecopenhagenproject.org> > http://delicious.com/kabell/?setcount=100> > http://twitter.com/kabell> > http://www.flickr.com/photos/kabell/> > > > Den 25/11/2008 kl. 23.10 skrev kavyvinson:> > > > > Free Will,> > >> > > I'm, sitting on a sofa and I decide to have a banana. The image of> > > the banana pops into my mind and I have a craving for one. I did > not> > > decide this, this urge came from within. As I go towards the > banana I> > > feel fat and I think that I have been eating too many bananas> > > recently so I decid> e not to have one. I think I have made a > decision> > > but all that happened was that a stronger urge came over me â€" a br> > > desire to get slim. So I have made no decisions; I just acted on> > > desires and impulses which came without my conscious control.> > >> > > Now imagine a drug addict, he has a craving for a fix, but he > fights> > > against it. He knows he will never be really happy if he keeps > using> > > the drug. That he has lost his wife, his job, etc. His craving for> > > the drug is immense, but he has an even greater desire to be > happy,> > > have a lovely wife, a family, and a rewarding job. Every now and> > > again the desire for the drug overwhelmed him â€" who cares about > all> > > that when you can feel something more amazing than God,20even if > it's> > > only for a short while. He fights the desire and on this occasion > he> > > wins.> > >> > > Can't you see that he does have free will, although very limited? > He> > > is a human so he cannot choose to have the desires of a dog. His> > > desires and cravings are human, typical and preset. But he fought> > > with all his might and won. This was a combination of his ego and > his> > > unconscious. In my opinion the mistake that people make when they > say> > > we have no free will is to believe that the ego, our > consciousness,> > > is in the driving seat. The whole of our bodies make the > decision. We> > > are> not free to choose our urges as such, but we can motivate> > > ourselves in a direction that is best for us. We have conscious> > > control.> > >> > > Those that say we don't have free will are only half right.> > > Ultimately we do have a free spirit, and all animals do, but only> > > within the framework of what we were born to be.> > >> > > Kavy> > >> > >> > >> >> > / div>> > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tis the season to save your money! Get the new AOL Holiday Toolbar for money saving offers and gift ideas.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tis the season to save your money! Get the new AOL Holiday Toolbar for money saving offers and gift ideas.>

[Guest guest]

HI Kavy,

Let me just say that YOU ARE VERY INSIGHTFUL. I think that we are all just

doing the best that we can. It is interesting that the bright and smart people

are the ones that think too much. Just because we notice that we are incorrect

we should not beat ourselves up over it. Do you know how few people work as

hard as we all are to get better and do the right thing for ourselves?. We find

things that we are correcting because we are trying so hard. Some people live

easier than us but they don't care. (Not everyone just generally) We care, we

are trying and when you change all the time it is tough sometimes. It takes

courage to do what we do and we do it consistently. So when you notice

something you want to change, I don't see it as an either or. We tend to think

too much but I will tell you that I think you are very smart and bright and well

informed. I hope it is okay to say that. Be gentle with yourself. I do this

too so I am including myself.

I have a new friend, and he knows about some of my issues with my abusive ex.

He says think of it as a red alert. Like on Star Trek. When your mind starts

doing whatever, or my ex starts upsetting me, you think of red alert your mind

is doing it again. I have really loved this.

Kind Regards,

Robyn

-------------- Original message ----------------------

>

> Thanks Bill for your comments yesterday.

>

>

>

> It's funny how you think you are being insightful when really you

> are not. There's a psychologist/ doctor out there who say's the

> reason why we have so much depression nowadays is because we are not out

> there in the fields doing real hard work generating lots of healthy

> chemicals in our bodies and soaking up loads of good sunshine. Instead

> we're in offices using our minds where are able to think all sorts

> of rubbish. Sounds just like ACT doesn't it? I don't know where

> I read this - it might have been on Dr Mercola's site; that rascal

> on the lunatic Right - I quite like him though.

>

>

>

> Your comment hit me right in the face and made me realise what ACT is

> really about. Get out of your mind and into your life. Defusion,

> meditation, mindfulness, etc, are just tools to get you there, whereas I

> have been using these methods as another interesting intellectual

> pursuit. Those tools are nowhere near as important as getting a life. I

> know this is obvious to everyone, including me, but I didn't realise

> how much I was intellectualising it. said once before that

> defusion was over rated and that values were more important. For me

> getting out there and having some fun is the most important thing right

> now.

>

>

>

> That was like real good therapy session to me as you caught me so off

> guard and drove the point home when I was at my lofty height i.e.

> causing maximum impact. That put some real insight into me.

>

>

>

> Thanks again,

>

>

>

> Kavy

>

> > >> > So where did the urge to not follow his original urge come from? > Did > > he decide to have that urge?> > > > If we20motivate ourselves in some direction - where did the > idea/urge > > to motivate ourselves come from?> > > > Having an urge override another urge is no argument for free will > (or > > half free will). It's just an interesting battle inside our minds -> > > that's my view at least. All urges, decisions, thoughts, emotions > are > > caused by things in our environment, memory, emotions which & nb sp;> creates > > new memories and emotions. From memories, from values, from > > experience, from random chemical changes in our head combined with > the > > environment springs what you may call life and decisions in the > > present moment.> > > > The flaw in free will thinking is that we see events isolated - as > > having a beginning and an end. "He pushed the button, and then the > > door opened. Therefore he chose to open the door." But what made > him > > push the button? What made=2 0him open the door? What made him want > to > > open the door? And for any answer to that you can continue to go > back > > in time and keep asking that same kind of question. Ultimately > it's > > the big bang, God, or whereever you think it all started (I think > it > > didn't - because that's just another way of looking for a > beginning > > where someone had free will, another story.)> > > > We say we choose a value - but what makes us favor a value over > another?> > We say we choose to break a commitment - but wh> at made us reach > that > > sum total of that decision?> > > > It's all causation. And we are just inside watching this reality > > unfold as a movie. We just happen to hear all the negotiations > that > > one part of our mind makes with itself. But we have no say in that > > conversation. When we realize that, it's not even us realizing it -> > > it's our mind realizing it. And we can take neither credit or blame.> > > > An ACT related metaphor for that may be people riding roller > coasters. > > Some people are scared, and believe they have more control of the > > situation if they scream, get tense, close their eyes, command the > > roller coaster to stop etc (and actually they may believe it works > > because eventually - it will!). Other people know that when they > first > > are in the wagon, they can't do anything, there's no control, so > they > > may just as well enjoy the ride. They lean back and relax.> > > > > > > > People in here may think that they chose to get into ACT. But > where > > did you hear about it for the first tim e? Did you decide before > you > > knew about ACT, to find out about ACT? Of course not. It just > > happened. Why didn't you reject ACT? Probably because it resonated > > with something you heard about in the past, or because someone you > > trusted recommended it. So, did you at any point just decide to > have > > that former knowledge, or didn't> it also just happen? When did you > > decide to trust that person? Did you decide to meet that person? > Did > > you decide to be born? Did you decide to have the value of > proactively > > improving your life? etc. etc.> > > > Free will exist in mental stories we create. Free will requires > that > > we only look at a very limited field in time. If the beginning of > the > > story is "He decided to push the button and he did so", it seems > > logical - of course, that's a decision, it's free will. But if you > > digg deeper you see that that decision was made on 1000 of factors > > that all was output/input in a caused manner since that person was > > born. And even the event that he was born, even when he was > conceived > > is part of the reason why in that exact moment he opene d the door.> > > > That's my view at least - I never decided to write this mail, it > just > > happened (some people would say I'm procrastinating on my essay - > I > > say procrastination is a nasty concept that removes us from the > > ultimate truth that stuff just happens > > > > > > - Jeppe> > > > > > PS. I believe that free will is the most stress-inducing belief > ever. > > You know, people that feel bad usually does so in two layers: 1) > They > > feel bad. 2) They feel bad about feeling bad.> > > > If they realized that they never decided to feel bad #1, they > wouldn't > > > feel bad #2. And then #1 would probably also solve itself much > faster. > > I think this is what ACT is really ab out: Just watching reality, > > seeing that it's all just happening.> > > > And when we realize that it's not US that have to accept things - > but > > actually our brain that has to accept stuff, and that that process > is > > completely out of our control, then we're really in a state of > bliss > > (even though our mind may be telling itself how stupid it is, but -> > > you know. The mind will grow up one day. Just stop listening. > You're > > safe inside yourself. Just lean back and enjoy the ride. (Which is -> > > of course - much easier said than done)> > > > > > -- > > Jeppe Kabell> > kabell@> > > > UK: +44 7549947410> > DK: +45 31102211> > > > Usher Halls, flat 176> > The Burroughs> > Hendon> > London NW4 4HE> > > > http://www.linkedin.com/in/kabell> > http://thecopenhagenproject.org> > http://delicious.com/kabell/?setcount=100> > http://twitter.com/kabell> > http://www.flickr.com/photos/kabell/> > > > Den 25/11/2008 kl. 23.10 skrev kavyvinson:> > > > > Free Will,> > >> > > I'm, sitting on a sofa and I decide to have a banana. The image of> > > the banana pops into my mind and I have a craving for one. I did > not> > > decide this, this urge came from within. As I go towards the > banana I> > > feel fat and I think that I have been eating too many bananas> > > recently so I decid> e not to have one. I think I have made a > decision> > > but all that happened was that a stronger urge came over me â€" a br> > > desire to get slim. So I have made no decisions; I just acted on> > > desires and impulses which came without my conscious control.> > >> > > Now imagine a drug addict, he has a craving for a fix, but he > fights> > > against it. He knows he will never be really happy if he keeps > using> > > the drug. That he has lost his wife, his job, etc. His craving for> > > the drug is immense, but he has an even greater desire to be > happy,> > > have a lovely wife, a family, and a rewarding job. Every now and> > > again the desire for the drug overwhelmed him â€" who cares about > all> > > that when you can feel something more amazing than God,20even if > it's> > > only for a short while. He fights the desire and on this occasion > he> > > wins.> > >> > > Can't you see that he does have free will, although very limited? > He> > > is a human so he cannot choose to have the desires of a dog. His> > > desires and cravings are human, typical and preset. But he fought> > > with all his might and won. This was a combination of his ego and > his> > > unconscious. In my opinion the mistake that people make when they > say> > > we have no free will is to believe that the ego, our > consciousness,> > > is in the driving seat. The whole of our bodies make the > decision. We> > > are> not free to choose our urges as such, but we can motivate> > > ourselves in a direction that is best for us. We have conscious> > > control.> > >> > > Those that say we don't have free will are only half right.> > > Ultimately we do have a free spirit, and all animals do, but only> > > within the framework of what we were born to be.> > >> > > Kavy> > >> > >> > >> >> > / div>> > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tis the season to save your money! Get the new AOL Holiday Toolbar for money saving offers and gift ideas.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tis the season to save your money! Get the new AOL Holiday Toolbar for money saving offers and gift ideas.>

[Guest guest]

Hi Jeppe

This is

fascinating stuff, particularly when I read this paragraph in your reply.

For me, it would be a case of removing the word “don’t” from

the first line, and you would have almost exactly my position:

The fact for me has been, that when I realized that I don't have free

will it released a lot of guilt that was troubling me (about minor stuff -

which wasn't minor in my brain!). I got more in tune with my internal values. I

noticed I adopted goals that was more based on my real internal states. My

thoughts basically aligned themselves much more with who I really am. I

accepted myself

Recognising

that I have free will freed me from determinism and helped me to recognise that

I am able to make my own choices and take my own consequences. Guilt then

becomes an irrelevance; in circumstances like this, I often resort to poetry:

It matters not how strait the gate,

How charged with punishments the scroll,

I am the master of my fate;

I am the captain of my soul.

(Invictus, W E Henley)

Kinna

This e-mail is

personal. It is not authorised by, nor sent on behalf of the Department

of Health or the Government of South Australia.

[Guest guest]

Wow, great post Jeppe. Thanks for taking the time to write it.

>

> So where did the urge to not follow his original urge come from?

Did

> he decide to have that urge?

>

> If we motivate ourselves in some direction - where did the

idea/urge

> to motivate ourselves come from?

>

> Having an urge override another urge is no argument for free will

(or

> half free will). It's just an interesting battle inside our minds -

> that's my view at least. All urges, decisions, thoughts, emotions

are

> caused by things in our environment, memory, emotions which

creates

> new memories and emotions. From memories, from values, from

> experience, from random chemical changes in our head combined with

the

> environment springs what you may call life and decisions in the

> present moment.

>

> The flaw in free will thinking is that we see events isolated - as

> having a beginning and an end. " He pushed the button, and then the

> door opened. Therefore he chose to open the door. " But what made

him

> push the button? What made him open the door? What made him want

to

> open the door? And for any answer to that you can continue to go

back

> in time and keep asking that same kind of question. Ultimately

it's

> the big bang, God, or whereever you think it all started (I think

it

> didn't - because that's just another way of looking for a

beginning

> where someone had free will, another story.)

>

> We say we choose a value - but what makes us favor a value over

another?

> We say we choose to break a commitment - but what made us reach

that

> sum total of that decision?

>

> It's all causation. And we are just inside watching this reality

> unfold as a movie. We just happen to hear all the negotiations

that

> one part of our mind makes with itself. But we have no say in that

> conversation. When we realize that, it's not even us realizing it -

> it's our mind realizing it. And we can take neither credit or blame.

>

> An ACT related metaphor for that may be people riding roller

coasters.

> Some people are scared, and believe they have more control of the

> situation if they scream, get tense, close their eyes, command the

> roller coaster to stop etc (and actually they may believe it works

> because eventually - it will!). Other people know that when they

first

> are in the wagon, they can't do anything, there's no control, so

they

> may just as well enjoy the ride. They lean back and relax.

>

>

>

> People in here may think that they chose to get into ACT. But

where

> did you hear about it for the first time? Did you decide before

you

> knew about ACT, to find out about ACT? Of course not. It just

> happened. Why didn't you reject ACT? Probably because it resonated

> with something you heard about in the past, or because someone you

> trusted recommended it. So, did you at any point just decide to

have

> that former knowledge, or didn't it also just happen? When did you

> decide to trust that person? Did you decide to meet that person?

Did

> you decide to be born? Did you decide to have the value of

proactively

> improving your life? etc. etc.

>

> Free will exist in mental stories we create. Free will requires

that

> we only look at a very limited field in time. If the beginning of

the

> story is " He decided to push the button and he did so " , it seems

> logical - of course, that's a decision, it's free will. But if you

> digg deeper you see that that decision was made on 1000 of factors

> that all was output/input in a caused manner since that person was

> born. And even the event that he was born, even when he was

conceived

> is part of the reason why in that exact moment he opened the door.

>

> That's my view at least - I never decided to write this mail, it

just

> happened (some people would say I'm procrastinating on my essay -

I

> say procrastination is a nasty concept that removes us from the

> ultimate truth that stuff just happens

>

>

> - Jeppe

>

>

> PS. I believe that free will is the most stress-inducing belief

ever.

> You know, people that feel bad usually does so in two layers: 1)

They

> feel bad. 2) They feel bad about feeling bad.

>

> If they realized that they never decided to feel bad #1, they

wouldn't

> feel bad #2. And then #1 would probably also solve itself much

faster.

> I think this is what ACT is really about: Just watching reality,

> seeing that it's all just happening.

>

> And when we realize that it's not US that have to accept things -

but

> actually our brain that has to accept stuff, and that that process

is

> completely out of our control, then we're really in a state of

bliss

> (even though our mind may be telling itself how stupid it is, but -

> you know. The mind will grow up one day. Just stop listening.

You're

> safe inside yourself. Just lean back and enjoy the ride. (Which is -

> of course - much easier said than done)

>

>

> --

> Jeppe Kabell

> kabell@...

>

> UK: +44 7549947410

> DK: +45 31102211

>

> Usher Halls, flat 176

> The Burroughs

> Hendon

> London NW4 4HE

>

> http://www.linkedin.com/in/kabell

> http://thecopenhagenproject.org

> http://delicious.com/kabell/?setcount=100

> http://twitter.com/kabell

> http://www.flickr.com/photos/kabell/

>

> Den 25/11/2008 kl. 23.10 skrev kavyvinson:

>

> > Free Will,

> >

> > I'm, sitting on a sofa and I decide to have a banana. The image of

> > the banana pops into my mind and I have a craving for one. I did

not

> > decide this, this urge came from within. As I go towards the

banana I

> > feel fat and I think that I have been eating too many bananas

> > recently so I decide not to have one. I think I have made a

decision

> > but all that happened was that a stronger urge came over me – a

> > desire to get slim. So I have made no decisions; I just acted on

> > desires and impulses which came without my conscious control.

> >

> > Now imagine a drug addict, he has a craving for a fix, but he

fights

> > against it. He knows he will never be really happy if he keeps

using

> > the drug. That he has lost his wife, his job, etc. His craving for

> > the drug is immense, but he has an even greater desire to be

happy,

> > have a lovely wife, a family, and a rewarding job. Every now and

> > again the desire for the drug overwhelmed him – who cares about

all

> > that when you can feel something more amazing than God, even if

it's

> > only for a short while. He fights the desire and on this occasion

he

> > wins.

> >

> > Can't you see that he does have free will, although very limited?

He

> > is a human so he cannot choose to have the desires of a dog. His

> > desires and cravings are human, typical and preset. But he fought

> > with all his might and won. This was a combination of his ego and

his

> > unconscious. In my opinion the mistake that people make when they

say

> > we have no free will is to believe that the ego, our

consciousness,

> > is in the driving seat. The whole of our bodies make the

decision. We

> > are not free to choose our urges as such, but we can motivate

> > ourselves in a direction that is best for us. We have conscious

> > control.

> >

> > Those that say we don't have free will are only half right.

> > Ultimately we do have a free spirit, and all animals do, but only

> > within the framework of what we were born to be.

> >

> > Kavy

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

In what service is participating in this discussion of free will? Is it moving one ahead with hands and feet towards a valued life; or accepting or defusing or awareness or self-observing? It seems very daredevilish - can I engage in this discussion without getting mangled in the WORD MACHINE? Kind of an ACT reality show (SURVIVOR ACT?) to see who falls off the tight rope while trying to prove how ACT proficient they are?

I'm exercising my free will by choosing to not buy the thoughts generated by this thread as they are not helpful. When I see an email with this thread I will throw it in the wastebasket. Call it avoidance if you wish. Like not eating that extra helping of turkey yesterday in service of my value to take care of my body.

Bill

To: ACT_for_the_Public From: brianparks@...Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 07:04:38 +0000Subject: Re: Free Will

Wow, great post Jeppe. Thanks for taking the time to write it. >> So where did the urge to not follow his original urge come from? Did > he decide to have that urge?> > If we motivate ourselves in some direction - where did the idea/urge > to motivate ourselves come from?> > Having an urge override another urge is no argument for free will (or > half free will). It's just an interesting battle inside our minds -> that's my view at least. All urges, decisions, thoughts, emotions are > caused by things in our environment, memory, emotions which creates > new memories and emotions. From memories, from values, from > experience, from random chemical changes in our head combined with the > environment springs what you may call life and decisions in the > present moment.> > The flaw in free will thinking is that we see events isolated - as > having a beginning and an end. "He pushed the button, and then the > door opened. Therefore he chose to open the door." But what made him > push the button? What made him open the door? What made him want to > open the door? And for any answer to that you can continue to go back > in time and keep asking that same kind of question. Ultimately it's > the big bang, God, or whereever you think it all started (I think it > didn't - because that's just another way of looking for a beginning > where someone had free will, another story.)> > We say we choose a value - but what makes us favor a value over another?> We say we choose to break a commitment - but what made us reach that > sum total of that decision?> > It's all causation. And we are just inside watching this reality > unfold as a movie. We just happen to hear all the negotiations that > one part of our mind makes with itself. But we have no say in that > conversation. When we realize that, it's not even us realizing it -> it's our mind realizing it. And we can take neither credit or blame.> > An ACT related metaphor for that may be people riding roller coasters. > Some people are scared, and believe they have more control of the > situation if they scream, get tense, close their eyes, command the > roller coaster to stop etc (and actually they may believe it works > because eventually - it will!). Other people know that when they first > are in the wagon, they can't do anything, there's no control, so they > may just as well enjoy the ride. They lean back and relax.> > > > People in here may think that they chose to get into ACT. But where > did you hear about it for the first time? Did you decide before you > knew about ACT, to find out about ACT? Of course not. It just > happened. Why didn't you reject ACT? Probably because it resonated > with something you heard about in the past, or because someone you > trusted recommended it. So, did you at any point just decide to have > that former knowledge, or didn't it also just happen? When did you > decide to trust that person? Did you decide to meet that person? Did > you decide to be born? Did you decide to have the value of proactively > improving your life? etc. etc.> > Free will exist in mental stories we create. Free will requires that > we only look at a very limited field in time. If the beginning of the > story is "He decided to push the button and he did so", it seems > logical - of course, that's a decision, it's free will. But if you > digg deeper you see that that decision was made on 1000 of factors > that all was output/input in a caused manner since that person was > born. And even the event that he was born, even when he was conceived > is part of the reason why in that exact moment he opened the door.> > That's my view at least - I never decided to write this mail, it just > happened (some people would say I'm procrastinating on my essay - I > say procrastination is a nasty concept that removes us from the > ultimate truth that stuff just happens > > > - Jeppe> > > PS. I believe that free will is the most stress-inducing belief ever. > You know, people that feel bad usually does so in two layers: 1) They > feel bad. 2) They feel bad about feeling bad.> > If they realized that they never decided to feel bad #1, they wouldn't > feel bad #2. And then #1 would probably also solve itself much faster. > I think this is what ACT is really about: Just watching reality, > seeing that it's all just happening.> > And when we realize that it's not US that have to accept things - but > actually our brain that has to accept stuff, and that that process is > completely out of our control, then we're really in a state of bliss > (even though our mind may be telling itself how stupid it is, but -> you know. The mind will grow up one day. Just stop listening. You're > safe inside yourself. Just lean back and enjoy the ride. (Which is -> of course - much easier said than done)> > > -- > Jeppe Kabell> kabell@...> > UK: +44 7549947410> DK: +45 31102211> > Usher Halls, flat 176> The Burroughs> Hendon> London NW4 4HE> > http://www.linkedin.com/in/kabell> http://thecopenhagenproject.org> http://delicious.com/kabell/?setcount=100> http://twitter.com/kabell> http://www.flickr.com/photos/kabell/> > Den 25/11/2008 kl. 23.10 skrev kavyvinson:> > > Free Will,> >> > I'm, sitting on a sofa and I decide to have a banana. The image of> > the banana pops into my mind and I have a craving for one. I did not> > decide this, this urge came from within. As I go towards the banana I> > feel fat and I think that I have been eating too many bananas> > recently so I decide not to have one. I think I have made a decision> > but all that happened was that a stronger urge came over me – a> > desire to get slim. So I have made no decisions; I just acted on> > desires and impulses which came without my conscious control.> >> > Now imagine a drug addict, he has a craving for a fix, but he fights> > against it. He knows he will never be really happy if he keeps using> > the drug. That he has lost his wife, his job, etc. His craving for> > the drug is immense, but he has an even greater desire to be happy,> > have a lovely wife, a family, and a rewarding job. Every now and> > again the desire for the drug overwhelmed him – who cares about all> > that when you can feel something more amazing than God, even if it's> > only for a short while. He fights the desire and on this occasion he> > wins.> >> > Can't you see that he does have free will, although very limited? He> > is a human so he cannot choose to have the desires of a dog. His> > desires and cravings are human, typical and preset. But he fought> > with all his might and won. This was a combination of his ego and his> > unconscious. In my opinion the mistake that people make when they say> > we have no free will is to believe that the ego, our consciousness,> > is in the driving seat. The whole of our bodies make the decision. We> > are not free to choose our urges as such, but we can motivate> > ourselves in a direction that is best for us. We have conscious> > control.> >> > Those that say we don't have free will are only half right.> > Ultimately we do have a free spirit, and all animals do, but only> > within the framework of what we were born to be.> >> > Kavy> >> >> >>

[Guest guest]

" When I see an email with this thread I will throw it in the

wastebasket. "

Oops, does this mean you are going to moderate my last post? I haven't

read the thread. To be perfectly honest I fond it hard to keep up. I've

changed to Digest Version as someone kindly suggested but as people

often neglect to edit out old posts it is hardwork scrolling through

everything. I'm probably just as guilty of that too I know! But if

there is a moderator here could they suggest people only quote the

whole of the previous post if that!

Louise

[Guest guest]

Please don't mistake me for a moderator!!!!!! Sorry. Bill

To: ACT_for_the_Public From: knitlou@...Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 14:19:03 +0000Subject: Re: Free Will

"When I see an email with this thread I will throw it in the wastebasket."Oops, does this mean you are going to moderate my last post? I haven't read the thread. To be perfectly honest I fond it hard to keep up. I've changed to Digest Version as someone kindly suggested but as people often neglect to edit out old posts it is hardwork scrolling through everything. I'm probably just as guilty of that too I know! But if there is a moderator here could they suggest people only quote the whole of the previous post if that!Louise

[Guest guest]

>In what service is participating in this discussion of free will?

Hi Bill,

The discussion about free will is a discussion about the nature of mind and consciousness, which I believe to be quite relevant to Get Out of Your MIND and Into Your Life. Perhaps the thread is interesting and helpful to those of us who want to first nail down what mind IS -- looking behind the word and stripping it down to its bare bones to find the real meaning, even though we may each come to different conclusions.

As far as getting mangled in the WORD MACHINE goes, I believe that the mangling occurs when we accept the words we speak and think as true. Trying to sift out the meaning behind the words (as in "What IS free will anyway?") is extremely helpful to me in my ACT journey. I see nothing wrong with applying critical thinking, using our innate intelligence, to topics such as this one. We are not brainless ACT robots. We are, and always will be thinkers, and I believe the goal of ACT is to learn to think in ways that move us forward and don't keep us stuck. This discussion does that for me.

Oh, and I admit to being a philosophy major in college : )Best,Helena Re: Free WillWow, great post Jeppe. Thanks for taking the time to write it. >> So where did the urge to not follow his original urge come from? Did > he decide to have that urge?> > If we motivate ourselves in some direction - where did the idea/urge > to motivate ourselves come from?> > Having an urge override another urge is no argument for free will (or > half free will). It's just an interesting battle inside our minds -> that's my view at least. All urges, decisions, thoughts, emotions are > caused by things in our environment, memory, emotions which creates > new memories and emotions. From memories, from values, from > experience, from random chemical changes in our head combined with the > environment springs what you may call life and decisions in the > present moment.> > The flaw in free will thinking is that we see events isolated - as > having a beginning and an end. "He pushed the button, and then the > door opened. Therefore he chose to open the door." But what made him > push the button? What made him open the door? What made him want to > open the door? And for any answer to that you can continue to go back > in time and keep asking that same kind of question. Ultimately it's > the big bang, God, or whereever you think it all started (I think it > didn't - because that's just another way of looking for a beginning > where someone had free will, another story.)> > We say we choose a value - but what makes us favor a value over another?> We say we choose to break a commitment - but what made us reach that > sum total of that decision?> > It's all causation. And we are just inside watching this reality > unfold as a movie. We just happen to hear all the negotiations that > one part of our mind makes with itself. But we have no say in that > conversation. When we realize that, it's not even us realizing it -> it's our mind realizing it. And we can take neither credit or blame.> > An ACT related metaphor for that may be people riding roller coasters. > Some people are scared, and believe they have more control of the > situation if they scream, get tense, close their eyes, command the > roller coaster to stop etc (and actually they may believe it works > because eventually - it will!). Other people know that when they first > are in the wagon, they can't do anything, there's no control, so they > may just as well enjoy the ride. They lean back and relax.> > > > People in here may think that they chose to get into ACT. But where > did you hear about it for the first time? Did you decide before you > knew about ACT, to find out about ACT? Of course not. It just > happened. Why didn't you reject ACT? Probably because it resonated > with something you heard about in the past, or because someone you > trusted recommended it. So, did you at any point just decide to have > that former knowledge, or didn't it also just happen? When did you > decide to trust that person? Did you decide to meet that person? Did > you decide to be born? Did you decide to have the value of proactively > improving your life? etc. etc.> > Free will exist in mental stories we create. Free will requires that > we only look at a very limited field in time. If the beginning of the > story is "He decided to push the button and he did so", it seems > logical - of course, that's a decision, it's free will. But if you > digg deeper you see that that decision was made on 1000 of factors > that all was output/input in a caused manner since that person was > born. And even the event that he was born, even when he was conceived > is part of the reason why in that exact moment he opened the door.> > That's my view at least - I never decided to write this mail, it just > happened (some people would say I'm procrastinating on my essay - I > say procrastination is a nasty concept that removes us from the > ultimate truth that stuff just happens > > > - Jeppe> > > PS. I believe that free will is the most stress-inducing belief ever. > You know, people that feel bad usually does so in two layers: 1) They > feel bad. 2) They feel bad about feeling bad.> > If they realized that they never decided to feel bad #1, they wouldn't > feel bad #2. And then #1 would probably also solve itself much faster. > I think this is what ACT is really about: Just watching reality, > seeing that it's all just happening.> > And when we realize that it's not US that have to accept things - but > actually our brain that has to accept stuff, and that that process is > completely out of our control, then we're really in a state of bliss > (even though our mind may be telling itself how stupid it is, but -> you know. The mind will grow up one day. Just stop listening. You're > safe inside yourself. Just lean back and enjoy the ride. (Which is -> of course - much easier said than done)> > > -- > Jeppe Kabell> kabell@...> > UK: +44 7549947410> DK: +45 31102211> > Usher Halls, flat 176> The Burroughs> Hendon> London NW4 4HE> > http://www.linkedin.com/in/kabell> http://thecopenhagenproject.org> http://delicious.com/kabell/?setcount=100> http://twitter.com/kabell> http://www.flickr.com/photos/kabell/> > Den 25/11/2008 kl. 23.10 skrev kavyvinson:> > > Free Will,> >> > I'm, sitting on a sofa and I decide to have a banana. The image of> > the banana pops into my mind and I have a craving for one. I did not> > decide this, this urge came from within. As I go towards the banana I> > feel fat and I think that I have been eating too many bananas> > recently so I decide not to have one. I think I have made a decision> > but all that happened was that a stronger urge came over me – a> > desire to get slim. So I have made no decisions; I just acted on> > desires and impulses which came without my conscious control.> >> > Now imagine a drug addict, he has a craving for a fix, but he fights> > against it. He knows he will never be really happy if he keeps using> > the drug. That he has lost his wife, his job, etc. His craving for> > the drug is immense, but he has an even greater desire to be happy,> > have a lovely wife, a family, and a rewarding job. Every now and> > again the desire for the drug overwhelmed him – who cares about all> > that when you can feel something more amazing than God, even if it's> > only for a short while. He fights the desire and on this occasion he> > wins.> >> > Can't you see that he does have free will, although very limited? He> > is a human so he cannot choose to have the desires of a dog. His> > desires and cravings are human, typical and preset. But he fought> > with all his might and won. This was a combination of his ego and his> > unconscious. In my opinion the mistake that people make when they say> > we have no free will is to believe that the ego, our consciousness,> > is in the driving seat. The whole of our bodies make the decision. We> > are not free to choose our urges as such, but we can motivate> > ourselves in a direction that is best for us. We have conscious> > control.> >> > Those that say we don't have free will are only half right.> > Ultimately we do have a free spirit, and all animals do, but only> > within the framework of what we were born to be.> >> > Kavy> >> >> >>

[Guest guest]

>

> >In what service is participating in this discussion of free will?

>

> Hi Bill,

>

> The discussion about free will is a discussion about the nature of

mind and consciousness, which I believe to be quite relevant to Get

Out of Your MIND and Into Your Life. Perhaps the thread is

interesting and helpful to those of us who want to first nail down

what mind IS -- looking behind the word and stripping it down to its

bare bones to find the real meaning, even though we may each come to

different conclusions.

>

> As far as getting mangled in the WORD MACHINE goes, I believe that

the mangling occurs when we accept the words we speak and think as

true. Trying to sift out the meaning behind the words (as in " What

IS free will anyway? " ) is extremely helpful to me in my ACT journey.

I see nothing wrong with applying critical thinking, using our innate

intelligence, to topics such as this one. We are not brainless ACT

robots. We are, and always will be thinkers, and I believe the goal

of ACT is to learn to think in ways that move us forward and don't

keep us stuck. This discussion does that for me.

>

> Oh, and I admit to being a philosophy major in college : )

>

> Best,

> Helena

Thanks, Helena. I sometimes feel, not as a philosopher, but as a

linguist who is interested in meaning but not always made anxious by

meanings unless they are related to my obesssions, that people are

suggesting ACT is about not thinking<grin>

Presumably all those who have thought up ACT have not abandoned the

power of thought altogether or they really would be out of their

minds and not be able to communicate any thoughts to us that we might

find useful. At best they'd only be able to grin at us and hope that

that conveys meanings like RELAX MAN CHILL OUT or FEEL THE ANGER all

the time. Not so easy by internet.

GOOYMAIYL (an acronym I couldn't figure out for some time even though

I already had the book before I found this website) would have to be

a picture book or better still a fluffy toy or maybe a punch bag?

Just joking.

You still have to be able to use words to talk about the way words

can interfere with living.

An amateur's response!

Louise

[Guest guest]

Hi Helena - Thank you! I see what you mean and will take a different look. My engineering mind sometimes mis-sorts these kind of topics. After your post I will try to learn from such threads rather than be frightened by them.

Bill

To: ACT_for_the_Public From: H_Rychener@...Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 10:07:47 -0500Subject: Re: Re: Free Will

>In what service is participating in this discussion of free will?

Hi Bill,

The discussion about free will is a discussion about the nature of mind and consciousness, which I believe to be quite relevant to Get Out of Your MIND and Into Your Life. Perhaps the thread is interesting and helpful to those of us who want to first nail down what mind IS -- looking behind the word and stripping it down to its bare bones to find the real meaning, even though we may each come to different conclusions.

As far as getting mangled in the WORD MACHINE goes, I believe that the mangling occurs when we accept the words we speak and think as true. Trying to sift out the meaning behind the words (as in "What IS free will anyway?") is extremely helpful to me in my ACT journey. I see nothing wrong with applying critical thinking, using our innate intelligence, to topics such as this one. We are not brainless ACT robots. We are, and always will be thinkers, and I believe the goal of ACT is to learn to think in ways that move us forward and don't keep us stuck. This discussion does that for me.

Oh, and I admit to being a philosophy major in college : )Best,Helena Re: Free WillWow, great post Jeppe. Thanks for taking the time to write it. >> So where did the urge to not follow his original urge come from? Did > he decide to have that urge?> > If we motivate ourselves in some direction - where did the idea/urge > to motivate ourselves come from?> > Having an urge override another urge is no argument for free will (or > half free will). It's just an interesting battle inside our minds -> that's my view at least. All urges, decisions, thoughts, emotions are > caused by things in our environment, memory, emotions which creates > new memories and emotions. From memories, from values, from > experience, from random chemical changes in our head combined with the > environment springs what you may call life and decisions in the > present moment.> > The flaw in free will thinking is that we see events isolated - as > having a beginning and an end. "He pushed the button, and then the > door opened. Therefore he chose to open the door." But what made him > push the button? What made him open the door? What made him want to > open the door? And for any answer to that you can continue to go back > in time and keep asking that same kind of question. Ultimately it's > the big bang, God, or whereever you think it all started (I think it > didn't - because that's just another way of looking for a beginning > where someone had free will, another story.)> > We say we choose a value - but what makes us favor a value over another?> We say we choose to break a commitment - but what made us reach that > sum total of that decision?> > It's all causation. And we are just inside watching this reality > unfold as a movie. We just happen to hear all the negotiations that > one part of our mind makes with itself. But we have no say in that > conversation. When we realize that, it's not even us realizing it -> it's our mind realizing it. And we can take neither credit or blame.> > An ACT related metaphor for that may be people riding roller coasters. > Some people are scared, and believe they have more control of the > situation if they scream, get tense, close their eyes, command the > roller coaster to stop etc (and actually they may believe it works > because eventually - it will!). Other people know that when they first > are in the wagon, they can't do anything, there's no control, so they > may just as well enjoy the ride. They lean back and relax.> > > > People in here may think that they chose to get into ACT. But where > did you hear about it for the first time? Did you decide before you > knew about ACT, to find out about ACT? Of course not. It just > happened. Why didn't you reject ACT? Probably because it resonated > with something you heard about in the past, or because someone you > trusted recommended it. So, did you at any point just decide to have > that former knowledge, or didn't it also just happen? When did you > decide to trust that person? Did you decide to meet that person? Did > you decide to be born? Did you decide to have the value of proactively > improving your life? etc. etc.> > Free will exist in mental stories we create. Free will requires that > we only look at a very limited field in time. If the beginning of the > story is "He decided to push the button and he did so", it seems > logical - of course, that's a decision, it's free will. But if you > digg deeper you see that that decision was made on 1000 of factors > that all was output/input in a caused manner since that person was > born. And even the event that he was born, even when he was conceived > is part of the reason why in that exact moment he opened the door.> > That's my view at least - I never decided to write this mail, it just > happened (some people would say I'm procrastinating on my essay - I > say procrastination is a nasty concept that removes us from the > ultimate truth that stuff just happens > > > - Jeppe> > > PS. I believe that free will is the most stress-inducing belief ever. > You know, people that feel bad usually does so in two layers: 1) They > feel bad. 2) They feel bad about feeling bad.> > If they realized that they never decided to feel bad #1, they wouldn't > feel bad #2. And then #1 would probably also solve itself much faster. > I think this is what ACT is really about: Just watching reality, > seeing that it's all just happening.> > And when we realize that it's not US that have to accept things - but > actually our brain that has to accept stuff, and that that process is > completely out of our control, then we're really in a state of bliss > (even though our mind may be telling itself how stupid it is, but -> you know. The mind will grow up one day. Just stop listening. You're > safe inside yourself. Just lean back and enjoy the ride. (Which is -> of course - much easier said than done)> > > -- > Jeppe Kabell> kabell@...> > UK: +44 7549947410> DK: +45 31102211> > Usher Halls, flat 176> The Burroughs> Hendon> London NW4 4HE> > http://www.linkedin.com/in/kabell> http://thecopenhagenproject.org> http://delicious.com/kabell/?setcount=100> http://twitter.com/kabell> http://www.flickr.com/photos/kabell/> > Den 25/11/2008 kl. 23.10 skrev kavyvinson:> > > Free Will,> >> > I'm, sitting on a sofa and I decide to have a banana. The image of> > the banana pops into my mind and I have a craving for one. I did not> > decide this, this urge came from within. As I go towards the banana I> > feel fat and I think that I have been eating too many bananas> > recently so I decide not to have one. I think I have made a decision> > but all that happened was that a stronger urge came over me – a> > desire to get slim. So I have made no decisions; I just acted on> > desires and impulses which came without my conscious control.> >> > Now imagine a drug addict, he has a craving for a fix, but he fights> > against it. He knows he will never be really happy if he keeps using> > the drug. That he has lost his wife, his job, etc. His craving for> > the drug is immense, but he has an even greater desire to be happy,> > have a lovely wife, a family, and a rewarding job. Every now and> > again the desire for the drug overwhelmed him – who cares about all> > that when you can feel something more amazing than God, even if it's> > only for a short while. He fights the desire and on this occasion he> > wins.> >> > Can't you see that he does have free will, although very limited? He> > is a human so he cannot choose to have the desires of a dog. His> > desires and cravings are human, typical and preset. But he fought> > with all his might and won. This was a combination of his ego and his> > unconscious. In my opinion the mistake that people make when they say> > we have no free will is to believe that the ego, our consciousness,> > is in the driving seat. The whole of our bodies make the decision. We> > are not free to choose our urges as such, but we can motivate> > ourselves in a direction that is best for us. We have conscious> > control.> >> > Those that say we don't have free will are only half right.> > Ultimately we do have a free spirit, and all animals do, but only> > within the framework of what we were born to be.> >> > Kavy> >> >> >>

[Guest guest]

Dear Helena:

If one is thinking about philosophy and doing just THAT; then this is mindfulness (I don't read all my mail so I missed the beginning of the discussion). THE WORD MACHINE takes over if you are thinking when you are doing other things. Like cooking, walking, or even watching TV. If you are thinking about philosophy when you are doing other activities, you are feeding THE WORD MACHINE. This is not mindfulness, it is mindlessness. If you can think about Free Will while sitting or typing, and then let it go, that is great. You are a philosopher. I was a philosophy major and I was thinking philosophy while walking, talking, watching TV, urinating, trying to sleep. As far as this discussion is concerned: Yes there is free will. But just don't ask me to think about it when I am eating. I am eating. So once again: BEWARE THE WORD MACHINE!

Yours,

Bill

Re: Free Will

>

> >In what service is participating in this discussion of free will?

>

> Hi Bill,

>

> The discussion about free will is a discussion about the nature of

mind and consciousness, which I believe to be quite relevant to Get

Out of Your MIND and Into Your Life. Perhaps the thread is

interesting and helpful to those of us who want to first nail down

what mind IS -- looking behind the word and stripping it down to its

bare bones to find the real meaning, even though we may each come to

different conclusions.

>

> As far as getting mangled in the WORD MACHINE goes, I believe that

the mangling occurs when we accept the words we speak and think as

true. Trying to sift out the meaning behind the words (as in "What

IS free will anyway?") is extremely helpful to me in my ACT journey.

I see nothing wrong with applying critical thinking, using our innate

intelligence, to topics such as this one. We are not brainless ACT

robots. We are, and always will be thinkers, and I believe the goal

of ACT is to learn to think in ways that move us forward and don't

keep us stuck. This discussion does that for me.

>

> Oh, and I admit to being a philosophy major in college : )

>

> Best,

> Helena

Thanks, Helena. I sometimes feel, not as a philosopher, but as a

linguist who is interested in meaning but not always made anxious by

meanings unless they are related to my obesssions, that people are

suggesting ACT is about not thinking<grin>

Presumably all those who have thought up ACT have not abandoned the

power of thought altogether or they really would be out of their

minds and not be able to communicate any thoughts to us that we might

find useful. At best they'd only be able to grin at us and hope that

that conveys meanings like RELAX MAN CHILL OUT or FEEL THE ANGER all

the time. Not so easy by internet.

GOOYMAIYL (an acronym I couldn't figure out for some time even though

I already had the book before I found this website) would have to be

a picture book or better still a fluffy toy or maybe a punch bag?

Just joking.

You still have to be able to use words to talk about the way words

can interfere with living.

An amateur's response!

Louise

Tis the season to save your money! Get the new AOL Holiday Toolbar for money saving offers and gift ideas.

[Guest guest]

>

> Dear Helena:

>

> If one is thinking about philosophy and doing just THAT; then this

is mindfulness (I don't read all my mail so I missed the beginning of

the discussion).? THE WORD MACHINE takes over if you are thinking

when you are doing other things.? Like cooking, walking, or even

watching TV.? If you are thinking about philosophy when you are doing

other activities, you are feeding THE WORD MACHINE.? This is not

mindfulness, it is mindlessness.? If you can think about Free Will

while sitting or typing, and then let it go, that is great.? You are

a philosopher.? I was a philosophy major and I was thinking

philosophy while walking, talking, watching TV, urinating, trying to

sleep.? As far as this discussion is concerned:? Yes there is free

will.? But just don't ask me to think about it when I am eating.? I

am eating.? So once again:? BEWARE THE WORD MACHINE!

>

> Yours,

>

> Bill

I am totally confused by this. Why is it wrong to do more than one

thing at once? This reminds me of a visit to the audiologist after I

got two new hearing aids. I was unable to hear anything at all while

I ate because of the severe occlusion effect. She insisted this was

normal. Nobody can hear anyone else when they are eating she

insisted. So why do people have dinner parties I wondered! And do

people who converse (presumably as a result of having thoughts)

during a meal, quite a sociable and worthy and valued activity I'd

think, have to say stop eating while I speak or I need to think so

I'd better stop eating.

What a struggle to get my hearing aids changed. Now I can hear and

talk and think at the same time! Surely ACT is about dealing with

maladaptive sorts of thinking isn't it not all thought or being

purely mindfuln all the time.

If you were thinking philosophy all the time when you were studying

it appears that was a problem but surely you don't need to go to the

other extreme and insist on only doing one thing at a time. Surely

that is an impossible aim!

Isn't taking anything to extreme, even whether people are doing ACT

perfectly, a form of mindlessness?

If ACT only works if you are 100% mindful all the time then I need to

become inhuman to manage it!

Louise

[Guest guest]

This is a great post. I am thinking about philosophy and myself all the time. I'm evaluating how I feel all the time. I've really lost the ability to get lost in an activity, if I ever really had it. I guess I did at one point. But I don't remember how I used to think and can't imagine what "normal" people think about.The funny things is that I have a lot of activities that I value. But I feel like doing them only drags me forward through life. I play in two bands at my church on a regular basis. I play in two others on a sporadic basis. I hike with my daughter on many weekends with another friend. I read to her every day. We had a nice Thanksgiving yesterday with a bunch of our neighbors. We're going back tonight for leftovers. I'm actively involved in two recovery groups. My wife likes me most of the time. One of the things she doesn't like is this mental condition and the fact that my hands shake slightly from the drugs I'm taking.But in spite of all this activity, I wake up every morning terrified and depressed. I feel that way until the evening when I start to feel better. I can only speculate that's because the end of the day is coming and I can get back in bed. Interestingly, I don't have nightmares but I do wake up a lot at night.I enjoy the intellectual discussion here and often think I have learned the technique or insight that will help turn me around. Maybe it helps for awhile. I guess what really helps is the community. I am always encouraged and distressed by people who have improved in their mental state, encouraged that it could happen to me and distressed that nothing has happened. That was one of my problems with CBT, the idea that you can just realize your thoughts are not totally true and then realize recovery.I know things are pretty good for me, compared to many people I meet or hear of. It pains me that my life is going by like this. I've been depressed for 10 years, the latest acute episode has lasted over 2 years.Thanks for everyone's ideas. I appreciate them all.BruceDear Helena:If one is thinking about philosophy and doing just THAT; then this is mindfulness (I don't read all my mail so I missed the beginning of the discussion).  THE WORD MACHINE takes over if you are thinking when you are doing other things.  Like cooking, walking, or even watching TV.  If you are thinking about philosophy when you are doing other activities, you are feeding THE WORD MACHINE.  This is not mindfulness, it is mindlessness.  If you can think about Free Will while sitting or typing, and then let it go, that is great.  You are a philosopher.  I was a philosophy major and I was thinking philosophy while walking, talking, watching TV, urinating, trying to sleep.  As far as this discussion is concerned:  Yes there is free will.  But just don't ask me to think about it when I am eating.  I am eating.  So once again:  BEWARE THE WORD MACHINE!Yours,Bill Re: Free Will>> >In what service is participating in this discussion of free will?> > Hi Bill,> > The discussion about free will is a discussion about the nature of mind and consciousness, which I believe to be quite relevant to Get Out of Your MIND and Into Your Life. Perhaps the thread is interesting and helpful to those of us who want to first nail down what mind IS -- looking behind the word and stripping it down to its bare bones to find the real meaning, even though we may each come to different conclusions. > > As far as getting mangled in the WORD MACHINE goes, I believe that the mangling occurs when we accept the words we speak and think as true. Trying to sift out the meaning behind the words (as in "What IS free will anyway?") is extremely helpful to me in my ACT journey. I see nothing wrong with applying critical thinking, using our innate intelligence, to topics such as this one. We are not brainless ACT robots. We are, and always will be thinkers, and I believe the goal of ACT is to learn to think in ways that move us forward and don't keep us stuck. This discussion does that for me.> > Oh, and I admit to being a philosophy major in college : )> > Best,> HelenaThanks, Helena. I sometimes feel, not as a philosopher, but as a linguist who is interested in meaning but not always made anxious by meanings unless they are related to my obesssions, that people are suggesting ACT is about not thinking<grin>Presumably all those who have thought up ACT have not abandoned the power of thought altogether or they really would be out of their minds and not be able to communicate any thoughts to us that we might find useful. At best they'd only be able to grin at us and hope that that conveys meanings like RELAX MAN CHILL OUT or FEEL THE ANGER all the time. Not so easy by internet.GOOYMAIYL (an acronym I couldn't figure out for some time even though I already had the book before I found this website) would have to be a picture book or better still a fluffy toy or maybe a punch bag?Just joking. You still have to be able to use words to talk about the way words can interfere with living.An amateur's response!LouiseTis the season to save your money! Get the new AOL Holiday Toolbar for money saving offers and gift ideas.

[Guest guest]

Bruce,

When I hear you talk maybe you could just know that you have a good life and

your brain is trying to tell you differently. Your subconscious brain doesn't

get it. Like the touching a hot stove explanation in GOOYMAIYL. And yes you

are going to feel bad at times. It sound like you are living and moving with

the feelings. I am just stating this from my distant view here.

I find it interesting that you too feel better at night. I have the same issue.

I think it is because I know I made it through another day. My brain likes to

think I won't make it through the day. (Thank you brain, I know you are just

trying to help)

Robyn

--------- Re: Free Will

> >

> >

> > >> >In what service is participating in this discussion of free will?> > Hi Bill,> > The discussion about free will is a discussion about the nature of mind and consciousness, which I believe to be quite relevant to Get Out of Your MIND and Into Your Life. Perhaps the thread is interesting and helpful to those of us who want to first nail down what mind IS -- looking behind the word and stripping it down to its bare bones to find the real meaning, even though we may each come to different conclusions. > > As far as getting mangled in the WORD MACHINE goes, I believe that the mangling occurs when we accept the words we speak and think as true. Trying to sift out the meaning behind the words (as in "What IS free will anyway?") is extremely helpful to me in my ACT journey. I see nothing wrong with applying critical thinking, using our innate intelligence, to topics such as this one. We are not brainless ACT robots. We are, and always will be thinkers, and I believe the goal of ACT is to learn to think in ways that move us forward and don't keep us stuck. This discussion does that for me.> > Oh, and I admit to being a philosophy major in college : )> > Best,> HelenaThanks, Helena. I sometimes feel, not as a philosopher, but as a linguist who is interested in meaning but not always made anxious by meanings unless they are related to my obesssions, that people are suggesting ACT is about not thinking<grin>Presumably all those who have thought up ACT have not abandoned the power of thought altogether or they really would be out of their minds and not be able to communicate any thoughts to us that we might find useful. At best they'd only be able to grin at us and hope that that conveys meanings like RELAX MAN CHILL OUT or FEEL THE ANGER all the time. Not so easy by internet.GOOYMAIYL (an acronym I couldn't figure out for some time even though I already had the book before I found this website) would have to be a picture book or better still a fluffy toy or maybe a punch bag?Just joking. You still have to be able to use words to talk about the way words can interfere with living.An amateur's response!LouiseTis the season to save your money! Get the new AOL Holiday Toolbar for money saving offers and gift ideas.

[Guest guest]

You seem to imply that desire = action. One of the things I have learned through ACT is that we may believe this is so, that it is one seamless motion from I want to I get or I want to I chase/try to get. But the wanting is the thought/feeling/desire, and the action is separate. We can choose to follow our desire, or not at all, or to some extent--but there is an intervening choice made. We may not be aware of it but the "decider" -- the part of us capable of making a choice and taking physical action -- is separate from and not directly or automatically controlled by our thoughts and feelings.

Perhaps you cannot change your desires/urges. So you cannot NOT want to take the drug you have been addicted to. And perhaps you cannot NOT desire the woman who attracts you, but you do not HAVE to take the drug and you do not HAVE to pursue the woman.

I am getting tangled in my own thoughts, but I really see this distinction before, and I do think it is important as we make commitments (to abstain, to be faithful, etc.) that we are capable of honoring if we choose. To say that we "couldn't help ourselves" is not the full truth. To say we FELT like we were compelled to do something and could not help ourselves is closer to the truth.

Addicts often experience drug cravings the rest of their lives and will tell you they wish they were still doing drugs/drinking because they enjoyed it--AND they decided (or continue to decide) not to do so for some more compelling reasons.

Married people or others who have chosen to be faithful to a single partner still get urges and attractions to others--AND they decided (or continue to decide) not to act on the urges as the commitment to their partner is more primary.

I cannot imagine a life where we all did whatever we wanted at the moment solely based upon our desires--wouldn't we all be sociopaths?

I do think this issue, whether it is one of free will or responsibility, is important, and that it can be a workable concept (more so than guilt, perhaps) to help people to act consistently with their values despite their urges and desires.

I am interested to hear more.

Cheers,

Robin

Subject: Re: Free WillTo: ACT_for_the_Public Date: Thursday, November 27, 2008, 6:40 AM

I can understand where you are all coming from and your arguments make sense. Say I have an urge to take, yet again, a drug, that is ruining my life. I then get an urge to free myself of this drug, so that I can end the pain and the mess the drug is making of my life. I choose neither urge, they are just there. But I struggle to not take the drug because the pain it will cause after the high is unbearable.I do not have a free choice in all of this. The drug addiction came because I was in the right place at the right time, and I was craving the excitment - another urge. Everything is driven by desires, im-pulses, and urges that we do not choose.I go to a dance and meet a fabulous girl and I just want her, so I make a decision to chase her. But I made no decision at all, my body chose her through it's desires. I did not choose the wonderful feelings that I got when I was with her.

But I want her and I am motivated to get her. To me it is like the whole of my body made the decision to chase her and I gladly go with it. I believe I could choose otherwise, but how could I, unless I wanted to hurt myself, but that would be another urge.Now these urges are not freely chosen and yet I go with them like I want them to be - the good ones that is - so it feels like a decision. I want these things to happen so it feels like free will, but I did not choose the want and yet I want this want. I want this - like I really want that girl. It is free will and yet it isn't. I freely choose what I do but I can't choose otherwise. I'm getting tied up in knots here. I was beginning to feel like a machine as I wrote this, but now I can see my freedom, although I can't put it in words. I'm not free in my environment, and yet my environment gives me the freedom to be, to be alive and to

experience joy. I love my world but I can't choose this, but why would I choose anything else.Peace,Kavy> > >> > > So where did the urge to not follow his original urge come from? > > Did > > > he decide to have that urge?> > > > > > If we motivate ourselves in some direction - where did the > > idea/urge > > > to motivate ourselves come from?> > > > > > Having an urge

override another urge is no argument for free will > > (or > > > half free will). It's just an interesting battle inside our > minds -> > > > > that's my view at least. All urges, decisions, thoughts, emotions > > are > > > caused by things in our environment, memory, emotions which > > creates > > > new memories and emotions. From memories, from values, from > > > experience, from random chemical changes in our head combined > with > > the > > > environment springs what you may call life and decisions in the > > > present moment.> > > > > > The flaw in free will thinking is that we see events isolated - > as > > > having a beginning and an end. "He pushed the button, and then > the > > > door opened. Therefore he chose to

open the door." But what made > > him > > > push the button? What made him open the door? What made him want > > to > > > open the door? And for any answer to that you can continue to go > > back > > > in time and keep asking that same kind of question. Ultimately > > it's > > > the big bang, God, or whereever you think it all started (I think > > it > > > didn't - because that's just another way of looking for a > > beginning > > > where someone had free will, another story.)> > > > > > We say we choose a value - but what makes us favor a value over > > another?> > > We say we choose to break a commitment - but what made us reach > > that > > > sum total of that decision?> > > > > > It's all causation.

And we are just inside watching this reality > > > unfold as a movie. We just happen to hear all the negotiations > > that > > > one part of our mind makes with itself. But we have no say in > that > > > conversation. When we realize that, it's not even us realizing > it -> > > > > it's our mind realizing it. And we can take neither credit or > blame.> > > > > > An ACT related metaphor for that may be people riding roller > > coasters. > > > Some people are scared, and believe they have more control of > the > > > situation if they scream, get tense, close their eyes, command > the > > > roller coaster to stop etc (and actually they may believe it > works > > > because eventually - it will!). Other people know that when they > > first

> > > are in the wagon, they can't do anything, there's no control, so > > they > > > may just as well enjoy the ride. They lean back and relax.> > > > > > > > > > > > People in here may think that they chose to get into ACT. But > > where > > > did you hear about it for the first time? Did you decide before > > you > > > knew about ACT, to find out about ACT? Of course not. It just > > > happened. Why didn't you reject ACT? Probably because it > resonated > > > with something you heard about in the past, or because someone > you > > > trusted recommended it. So, did you at any point just decide to > > have > > > that former knowledge, or didn't it also just happen? When did > you > > > decide to trust that person? Did you

decide to meet that person? > > Did > > > you decide to be born? Did you decide to have the value of > > proactively > > > improving your life? etc. etc.> > > > > > Free will exist in mental stories we create. Free will requires > > that > > > we only look at a very limited field in time. If the beginning of > > the > > > story is "He decided to push the button and he did so", it seems > > > logical - of course, that's a decision, it's free will. But if > you > > > digg deeper you see that that decision was made on 1000 of > factors > > > that all was output/input in a caused manner since that person > was > > > born. And even the event that he was born, even when he was > > conceived > > > is part of the reason why in that exact

moment he opened the door.> > > > > > That's my view at least - I never decided to write this mail, it > > just > > > happened (some people would say I'm procrastinating on my essay - > > I > > > say procrastination is a nasty concept that removes us from the > > > ultimate truth that stuff just happens > > > > > > > > > - Jeppe> > > > > > > > > PS. I believe that free will is the most stress-inducing belief > > ever. > > > You know, people that feel bad usually does so in two layers: 1) > > They > > > feel bad. 2) They feel bad about feeling bad.> > > > > > If they realized that they never decided to feel bad #1, they > > wouldn't > > > feel bad #2. And then #1 would probably

also solve itself much > > faster. > > > I think this is what ACT is really about: Just watching reality, > > > seeing that it's all just happening.> > > > > > And when we realize that it's not US that have to accept things - > > but > > > actually our brain that has to accept stuff, and that that > process > > is > > > completely out of our control, then we're really in a state of > > bliss > > > (even though our mind may be telling itself how stupid it is, > but -> > > > > you know. The mind will grow up one day. Just stop listening. > > You're > > > safe inside yourself. Just lean back and enjoy the ride. (Which > is -> > > > > of course - much easier said than done)> > > > > > > > > --

> > > Jeppe Kabell> > > kabell@> > > > > > UK: +44 7549947410> > > DK: +45 31102211> > > > > > Usher Halls, flat 176> > > The Burroughs> > > Hendon> > > London NW4 4HE> > > > > > http://www.linkedin .com/in/kabell> > > http://thecopenhage nproject. org> > > http://delicious. com/kabell/ ?setcount= 100> > > http://twitter. com/kabell> > > http://www.flickr. com/photos/

kabell/> > > > > > Den 25/11/2008 kl. 23.10 skrev kavyvinson:> > > > > > > Free Will,> > > >> > > > I'm, sitting on a sofa and I decide to have a banana. The image > of> > > > the banana pops into my mind and I have a craving for one. I > did > > not> > > > decide this, this urge came from within. As I go towards the > > banana I> > > > feel fat and I think that I have been eating too many bananas> > > > recently so I decide not to have one. I think I have made a > > decision> > > > but all that happened was that a stronger urge came over me – a> > > > desire to get slim. So I have made no decisions; I just acted on> > > > desires and impulses which came without my conscious control.> >

> >> > > > Now imagine a drug addict, he has a craving for a fix, but he > > fights> > > > against it. He knows he will never be really happy if he keeps > > using> > > > the drug. That he has lost his wife, his job, etc. His craving > for> > > > the drug is immense, but he has an even greater desire to be > > happy,> > > > have a lovely wife, a family, and a rewarding job. Every now and> > > > again the desire for the drug overwhelmed him – who cares about > > all> > > > that when you can feel something more amazing than God, even if > > it's> > > > only for a short while. He fights the desire and on this > occasion > > he> > > > wins.> > > >> > > > Can't you see that he does

have free will, although very > limited? > > He> > > > is a human so he cannot choose to have the desires of a dog. His> > > > desires and cravings are human, typical and preset. But he > fought> > > > with all his might and won. This was a combination of his ego > and > > his> > > > unconscious. In my opinion the mistake that people make when > they > > say> > > > we have no free will is to believe that the ego, our > > consciousness,> > > > is in the driving seat. The whole of our bodies make the > > decision. We> > > > are not free to choose our urges as such, but we can motivate> > > > ourselves in a direction that is best for us. We have conscious> > > > control.> > > >> > > > Those that say

we don't have free will are only half right.> > > > Ultimately we do have a free spirit, and all animals do, but > only> > > > within the framework of what we were born to be.> > > >> > > > Kavy> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> >>

[Guest guest]

Wow--I believe that we DO make decisions, although we may not be aware that we are doing so.

I also believe that we CAN choose in the future differently than we have chosen in the past; of course, once we've made a choice, we chose what we chose. I wouldn't say there are an infinite number of choices each of us could make in any situation, however, as the choices are limited, shaped, influenced greatly by our environment and genetics.

I guess these beliefs are workable for me as they give me a sense not of control but of engagement and involvement in the world. Else I would rely on my natural avoidance and passivity.

Best,

Robin

Subject: Re: Re: Free WillTo: ACT_for_the_Public Date: Thursday, November 27, 2008, 6:53 AM

Yeah - I believe we are trapped inside language here Our language kind of supposes that there's i free will in the way it's structured.

I think I understand your point. We can choose - but we can't choose any different than we do. I say that's the same as not having free will - in the sense that we can only choose what we choose. Still though, we might or might not be involved in the process leading to that choise.

The body decides - but that's only when we operate from the concept of "body" as a seperate thing from the environment.

I really recommend to you the book "A Thousand Names for Joy" by Byron .

Here's an excerpt:

http://www.randomho use.com/catalog/ display.pperl/ display.pperl? isbn=97807393418 89 & view=excerpt

She has a wonderfull quote, which i state here from memory:

"We don't make decisions. Decisions make themselves. All we can do is seek out more information. How do I know that I have enough information? When the decision is made!"

It's a freeing way of seeing it. But it still doesn't answear the question: "What made me want to make a decision in the first place? What made me decide to seek out more information? " The answer is of course: "Other information" And so on and so on.

- Jeppe

Den 27/11/2008 kl. 15.40 skrev kavyvinson:

I can understand where you are all coming from and your arguments make sense. Say I have an urge to take, yet again, a drug, that is ruining my life. I then get an urge to free myself of this drug, so that I can end the pain and the mess the drug is making of my life. I choose neither urge, they are just there. But I struggle to not take the drug because the pain it will cause after the high is unbearable.I do not have a free choice in all of this. The drug addiction came because I was in the right place at the right time, and I was craving the

excitment - another urge. Everything is driven by desires, im-pulses, and urges that we do not choose.I go to a dance and meet a fabulous girl and I just want her, so I make a decision to chase her. But I made no decision at all, my body chose her through it's desires. I did not choose the wonderful feelings that I got when I was with her. But I want her and I am motivated to get her. To me it is like the whole of my body made the decision to chase her and I gladly go with it. I believe I could choose otherwise, but how could I, unless I wanted to hurt myself, but that would be another

urge.Now these urges are not freely chosen and yet I go with them like I want them to be - the good ones that is - so it feels like a decision. I want these things to happen so it feels like free will, but I did not choose the want and yet I want this want. I want this - like I really want that girl. It is free will and yet it isn't. I freely choose what I do but I can't choose otherwise. I'm getting tied up in knots here. I was beginning to feel like a machine as I wrote this, but now I can see my freedom, although I can't put it in words. I'm not

free in my environment, and yet my environment gives me the freedom to be, to be alive and to experience joy. I love my world but I can't choose this, but why would I choose anything else.Peace,Kavy> > >> > > So where did the urge to not follow his original urge come from? > > Did >

> > he decide to have that urge?> > > > > > If we motivate ourselves in some direction - where did the > > idea/urge > > > to motivate ourselves come from?> > > > > > Having an urge override another urge is no argument for free will > > (or > > > half free will). It's just an interesting battle inside our > minds -> > > > > that's my view at least. All urges, decisions, thoughts, emotions > > are > > > caused by things in our environment, memory, emotions which > > creates > > > new memories and emotions. From memories, from values, from > > > experience, from random chemical changes in our head combined > with > > the > > > environment springs what you may call life and decisions in the > > > present moment.> >

> > > > The flaw in free will thinking is that we see events isolated - > as > > > having a beginning and an end. "He pushed the button, and then > the > > > door opened. Therefore he chose to open the door." But what made > > him > > > push the button? What made him open the door? What made him want > > to > > > open the door? And for any answer to

that you can continue to go > > back > > > in time and keep asking that same kind of question. Ultimately > > it's > > > the big bang, God, or whereever you think it all started (I think > > it > > > didn't - because that's just another way of looking for a > > beginning > > > where someone had free will, another story.)> > > > > >

We say we choose a value - but what makes us favor a value over > > another?> > > We say we choose to break a commitment - but what made us reach > > that > > > sum total of that decision?> > > > > > It's all causation. And we are just inside watching this reality > > > unfold as a movie. We just happen to hear all the negotiations > > that > > > one part of our mind makes with itself. But we have no say in > that > > > conversation. When we realize that, it's not even us realizing > it -> > > > > it's our mind realizing it. And we can take neither credit or > blame.> > > > > > An ACT related metaphor for that may be people riding roller > > coasters. > > > Some people are scared, and believe they have more control of > the > > > situation if they scream, get tense, close their eyes, command >

the > > > roller coaster to stop etc (and actually they may believe it > works > > > because eventually - it will!). Other people know that when they > > first > > > are in the wagon, they can't do anything, there's no control, so > > they > > > may just as well enjoy the ride. They lean back and relax.> > > > > > > > > > > > People in here may think that they chose to get into ACT. But > > where > > > did you hear about it for the first time? Did you decide before > > you > > > knew about ACT, to find out about ACT? Of course not. It just > > > happened. Why didn't you reject ACT? Probably because it > resonated > > > with something you heard about in the past, or because someone > you > > > trusted recommended

it. So, did you at any point just decide to > > have > > > that former knowledge, or didn't it also just happen? When did > you > > > decide to trust that person? Did you decide to meet that person? > > Did > > > you decide to be born? Did you decide to have the value of > > proactively > > > improving your life? etc. etc.> > > > > > Free will exist in mental stories we create. Free

will requires > > that > > > we only look at a very limited field in time. If the beginning of > > the > > > story is "He decided to push the button and he did so", it seems > > > logical - of course, that's a decision, it's free will. But if > you > > > digg deeper you see that that decision was made on 1000 of > factors > > > that all was

output/input in a caused manner since that person > was > > > born. And even the event that he was born, even when he was > > conceived > > > is part of the reason why in that exact moment he opened the door.> > > > > > That's my view at least - I never decided to write this mail, it > > just > > > happened (some people would say I'm procrastinating on my essay - > > I > > > say procrastination is a nasty concept that removes us from the > > > ultimate truth that stuff just happens > > > > > > > > > - Jeppe> > > > > > > > > PS. I believe that free will is the most stress-inducing belief > > ever. > > > You know, people that feel bad usually does so in two layers: 1) > > They > > > feel bad. 2) They feel bad about feeling bad.> > > > > > If they realized that they never decided to feel bad #1, they > > wouldn't > > > feel bad #2. And then #1 would probably also solve itself much > > faster. > > > I think this is what ACT is really about: Just watching reality, > > > seeing that it's all just happening.> > > > > > And when we realize

that it's not US that have to accept things - > > but > > > actually our brain that has to accept stuff, and that that > process > > is > > > completely out of our control, then we're really in a state of > > bliss > > > (even though our mind may be telling itself how stupid it is, > but -> > > > > you know. The mind will grow up one day. Just stop listening. > > You're > > > safe inside yourself. Just lean back and enjoy the ride. (Which > is -> > > > > of course - much easier said than done)> > > > > > > > > -- > > > Jeppe Kabell> > > kabell@> > > > > > UK: +44 7549947410> > > DK: +45 31102211> > > > > > Usher Halls, flat 176> > > The Burroughs> > > Hendon> > > London NW4 4HE>

> > > > > http://www.linkedin .com/in/kabell> > > http://thecopenhage nproject. org> > > http://delicious. com/kabell/ ?setcount= 100> > > http://twitter. com/kabell> > > http://www.flickr. com/photos/ kabell/> > > > > > Den 25/11/2008 kl. 23.10 skrev kavyvinson:> > > > > > > Free Will,> > > >> > > > I'm, sitting on a sofa and I decide to have a banana. The image > of> > > > the banana pops into my mind and I have a craving for one. I > did > > not> > > > decide this, this urge came from within. As I go towards the > > banana I> > > > feel fat and I think that I have been eating too many bananas> > > > recently so I decide not to have one. I think I have made a > > decision> > > > but all that happened was that a stronger urge came over me – a> > > > desire to get slim. So I have made no decisions; I just acted on> > > > desires and impulses which came without my conscious control.> > > >> > > > Now imagine a drug addict, he has a craving for a fix, but he > > fights> > > > against it. He knows he will never be really happy if he keeps > > using> > > > the drug. That he has lost his wife, his job, etc. His craving > for> > > > the drug is immense, but he has an even greater desire to be > > happy,> > > > have a lovely wife, a family, and a rewarding job. Every now and> > > > again the desire for the drug overwhelmed him – who cares about > > all> > > > that when you can feel something more amazing than God, even if > > it's> > > > only for a short while. He fights the desire and on this > occasion > > he> >

> > wins.> > > >> > > > Can't you see that he does have free will, although very > limited? > > He> > > > is a human so he cannot choose to have the desires of a dog. His> > > > desires and cravings are human, typical and preset. But he > fought> > > > with all his might and won. This was a combination of his ego > and > > his> > > > unconscious. In my opinion the mistake that people make when > they > > say> > > >

we have no free will is to believe that the ego, our > > consciousness,> > > > is in the driving seat. The whole of our bodies make the > > decision. We> > > > are not free to choose our urges as such, but we can motivate> > > > ourselves in a direction that is best for us. We have conscious> > > > control.> > > >> > > > Those that say we don't have free will are only half right.> > > > Ultimately we do have a free spirit, and all animals do, but > only> > > > within the framework of what we were born to be.> > > >> > > > Kavy> > > >> > > >> >

> >> > >> >>

[Guest guest]

I would love to debate with you Robyn but I think folks have got fed

up with it. I started out to prove that we did have free will, which

I was passionate about because it is life giving. I ended seeing that

we don't have much free will but I still believe we do although I

can't figure it out.

Kavy

> > > >

> > > > So where did the urge to not follow his original urge come

> from?

> > > Did

> > > > he decide to have that urge?

> > > >

> > > > If we motivate ourselves in some direction - where did the

> > > idea/urge

> > > > to motivate ourselves come from?

> > > >

> > > > Having an urge override another urge is no argument for free

> will

> > > (or

> > > > half free will). It's just an interesting battle inside our

> > minds -

> > >

> > > > that's my view at least. All urges, decisions, thoughts,

> emotions

> > > are

> > > > caused by things in our environment, memory, emotions which

> > > creates

> > > > new memories and emotions. From memories, from values, from

> > > > experience, from random chemical changes in our head combined

> > with

> > > the

> > > > environment springs what you may call life and decisions in

> the

> > > > present moment.

> > > >

> > > > The flaw in free will thinking is that we see events

isolated -

> > as

> > > > having a beginning and an end. " He pushed the button, and

then

> > the

> > > > door opened. Therefore he chose to open the door. " But what

> made

> > > him

> > > > push the button? What made him open the door? What made him

> want

> > > to

> > > > open the door? And for any answer to that you can continue to

> go

> > > back

> > > > in time and keep asking that same kind of question.

Ultimately

> > > it's

> > > > the big bang, God, or whereever you think it all started (I

> think

> > > it

> > > > didn't - because that's just another way of looking for a

> > > beginning

> > > > where someone had free will, another story.)

> > > >

> > > > We say we choose a value - but what makes us favor a value

over

> > > another?

> > > > We say we choose to break a commitment - but what made us

reach

> > > that

> > > > sum total of that decision?

> > > >

> > > > It's all causation. And we are just inside watching this

> reality

> > > > unfold as a movie. We just happen to hear all the

negotiations

> > > that

> > > > one part of our mind makes with itself. But we have no say in

> > that

> > > > conversation. When we realize that, it's not even us

realizing

> > it -

> > >

> > > > it's our mind realizing it. And we can take neither credit or

> > blame.

> > > >

> > > > An ACT related metaphor for that may be people riding roller

> > > coasters.

> > > > Some people are scared, and believe they have more control of

> > the

> > > > situation if they scream, get tense, close their eyes,

command

> > the

> > > > roller coaster to stop etc (and actually they may believe it

> > works

> > > > because eventually - it will!). Other people know that when

> they

> > > first

> > > > are in the wagon, they can't do anything, there's no control,

> so

> > > they

> > > > may just as well enjoy the ride. They lean back and relax.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > People in here may think that they chose to get into ACT. But

> > > where

> > > > did you hear about it for the first time? Did you decide

before

> > > you

> > > > knew about ACT, to find out about ACT? Of course not. It just

> > > > happened. Why didn't you reject ACT? Probably because it

> > resonated

> > > > with something you heard about in the past, or because

someone

> > you

> > > > trusted recommended it. So, did you at any point just decide

to

> > > have

> > > > that former knowledge, or didn't it also just happen? When

did

> > you

> > > > decide to trust that person? Did you decide to meet that

> person?

> > > Did

> > > > you decide to be born? Did you decide to have the value of

> > > proactively

> > > > improving your life? etc. etc.

> > > >

> > > > Free will exist in mental stories we create. Free will

requires

> > > that

> > > > we only look at a very limited field in time. If the

beginning

> of

> > > the

> > > > story is " He decided to push the button and he did so " , it

> seems

> > > > logical - of course, that's a decision, it's free will. But

if

> > you

> > > > digg deeper you see that that decision was made on 1000 of

> > factors

> > > > that all was output/input in a caused manner since that

person

> > was

> > > > born. And even the event that he was born, even when he was

> > > conceived

> > > > is part of the reason why in that exact moment he opened the

> door.

> > > >

> > > > That's my view at least - I never decided to write this mail,

> it

> > > just

> > > > happened (some people would say I'm procrastinating on my

> essay -

> > > I

> > > > say procrastination is a nasty concept that removes us from

> the

> > > > ultimate truth that stuff just happens

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > - Jeppe

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > PS. I believe that free will is the most stress-inducing

belief

> > > ever.

> > > > You know, people that feel bad usually does so in two layers:

> 1)

> > > They

> > > > feel bad. 2) They feel bad about feeling bad.

> > > >

> > > > If they realized that they never decided to feel bad #1, they

> > > wouldn't

> > > > feel bad #2. And then #1 would probably also solve itself

much

> > > faster.

> > > > I think this is what ACT is really about: Just watching

> reality,

> > > > seeing that it's all just happening.

> > > >

> > > > And when we realize that it's not US that have to accept

> things -

> > > but

> > > > actually our brain that has to accept stuff, and that that

> > process

> > > is

> > > > completely out of our control, then we're really in a state

of

> > > bliss

> > > > (even though our mind may be telling itself how stupid it is,

> > but -

> > >

> > > > you know. The mind will grow up one day. Just stop listening.

> > > You're

> > > > safe inside yourself. Just lean back and enjoy the ride.

(Which

> > is -

> > >

> > > > of course - much easier said than done)

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > --

> > > > Jeppe Kabell

> > > > kabell@

> > > >

> > > > UK: +44 7549947410

> > > > DK: +45 31102211

> > > >

> > > > Usher Halls, flat 176

> > > > The Burroughs

> > > > Hendon

> > > > London NW4 4HE

> > > >

> > > > http://www.linkedin .com/in/kabell

> > > > http://thecopenhage nproject. org

> > > > http://delicious. com/kabell/ ?setcount= 100

> > > > http://twitter. com/kabell

> > > > http://www.flickr. com/photos/ kabell/

> > > >

> > > > Den 25/11/2008 kl. 23.10 skrev kavyvinson:

> > > >

> > > > > Free Will,

> > > > >

> > > > > I'm, sitting on a sofa and I decide to have a banana. The

> image

> > of

> > > > > the banana pops into my mind and I have a craving for one.

I

> > did

> > > not

> > > > > decide this, this urge came from within. As I go towards

the

> > > banana I

> > > > > feel fat and I think that I have been eating too many

bananas

> > > > > recently so I decide not to have one. I think I have made a

> > > decision

> > > > > but all that happened was that a stronger urge came over

me –

> a

> > > > > desire to get slim. So I have made no decisions; I just

acted

> on

> > > > > desires and impulses which came without my conscious

control.

> > > > >

> > > > > Now imagine a drug addict, he has a craving for a fix, but

he

> > > fights

> > > > > against it. He knows he will never be really happy if he

> keeps

> > > using

> > > > > the drug. That he has lost his wife, his job, etc. His

> craving

> > for

> > > > > the drug is immense, but he has an even greater desire to

be

> > > happy,

> > > > > have a lovely wife, a family, and a rewarding job. Every

now

> and

> > > > > again the desire for the drug overwhelmed him – who cares

> about

> > > all

> > > > > that when you can feel something more amazing than God,

even

> if

> > > it's

> > > > > only for a short while. He fights the desire and on this

> > occasion

> > > he

> > > > > wins.

> > > > >

> > > > > Can't you see that he does have free will, although very

> > limited?

> > > He

> > > > > is a human so he cannot choose to have the desires of a

dog.

> His

> > > > > desires and cravings are human, typical and preset. But he

> > fought

> > > > > with all his might and won. This was a combination of his

ego

> > and

> > > his

> > > > > unconscious. In my opinion the mistake that people make

when

> > they

> > > say

> > > > > we have no free will is to believe that the ego, our

> > > consciousness,

> > > > > is in the driving seat. The whole of our bodies make the

> > > decision. We

> > > > > are not free to choose our urges as such, but we can

motivate

> > > > > ourselves in a direction that is best for us. We have

> conscious

> > > > > control.

> > > > >

> > > > > Those that say we don't have free will are only half right.

> > > > > Ultimately we do have a free spirit, and all animals do,

but

> > only

> > > > > within the framework of what we were born to be.

> > > > >

> > > > > Kavy

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Kavy:

There is a discussion of this in "Mindfulness, Bliss, and Beyond" by Ajahn Brahm if you would like to examine the issue further. It seems we do have free will, but ultimately, the "thinking" of that free will is determined and we have no free will. I have read that book three times and I still don't understand it. It's a hard subject to examine, I think.

Bill

Van Nuys, California

Re: Free Will

I would love to debate with you Robyn but I think folks have got fed

up with it. I started out to prove that we did have free will, which

I was passionate about because it is life giving. I ended seeing that

we don't have much free will but I still believe we do although I

can't figure it out.

Kavy

> > > >

> > > > So where did the urge to not follow his original urge come

> from?

> > > Did

> > > > he decide to have that urge?

> > > >

> > > > If we motivate ourselves in some direction - where did the

> > > idea/urge

> > > > to motivate ourselves come from?

> > > >

> > > > Having an urge override another urge is no argument for free

> will

> > > (or

> > > > half free will). It's just an interesting battle inside our

> > minds -

> > >

> > > > that's my view at least. All urges, decisions, thoughts,

> emotions

> > > are

> > > > caused by things in our environment, memory, emotions which

> > > creates

> > > > new memories and emotions. From memories, from values, from

> > > > experience, from random chemical changes in our head combined

> > with

> > > the

> > > > environment springs what you may call life and decisions in

> the

> > > > present moment.

> > > >

> > > > The flaw in free will thinking is that20we see events

isolated -

> > as

> > > > having a beginning and an end. "He pushed the button, and

then

> > the

> > > > door opened. Therefore he chose to open the door." But what

> made

> > > him

> > > > push the button? What made him open the door? What made him

> want

> > > to

> > > > open the door? And for any answer to that you can continue to

> go

> > > back

> > > > in time and keep asking that same kind of question.

Ultimately

> > > it's

> > > > the big bang, God, or whereever you think it all started (I

> think

> > > it

> > > > didn't - because that's just another way of looking for a

> > > beginning

> > > > where someone had free will, another story.)

> > > >

> > > > We say we choose a value - but what makes us favor a value

over

> > > another?

> > > > We say we choose to break a commitment - but what made us

reach

> > > that

> > > > sum total of that decision?

> > > >

> > > > It's all causation. And we are just inside watching this

> reality

> > > > unfold as a movie. We just happen to hear all=2

0the

negotiations

> > > that

> > > > one part of our mind makes with itself. But we have no say in

> > that

> > > > conversation. When we realize that, it's not even us

realizing

> > it -

> > >

> > > > it's our mind realizing it. And we can take neither credit or

> > blame.

> > > >

> > > > An ACT related metaphor for that may be people riding roller

> > > coasters.

> > > > Some people are scared, and believe they have more control of

> > the

> > > > situation if they scream, get tense, close their eyes,

command

> > the

> > > > roller coaster to stop etc (and actually they may believe it

> > works

> > > > because eventually - it will!). Other people know that when

> they

> > > first

> > > > are in the wagon, they can't do anything, there's no control,

> so

> > > they

> > > > may just as well enjoy the ride. They lean back and relax.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > People in here may think that they chose to get into ACT. But

> > > where

> > > > did you hear about it for the first time? Did you decide

before

gt; > > you

> > > > knew about ACT, to find out about ACT? Of course not. It just

> > > > happened. Why didn't you reject ACT? Probably because it

> > resonated

> > > > with something you heard about in the past, or because

someone

> > you

> > > > trusted recommended it. So, did you at any point just decide

to

> > > have

> > > > that former knowledge, or didn't it also just happen? When

did

> > you

> > > > decide to trust that person? Did you decide to meet that

> person?

> > > Did

> > > > you decide to be born? Did you decide to have the value of

> > > proactively

> > > > improving your life? etc. etc.

> > > >

> > > > Free will exist in mental stories we create. Free will

requires

> > > that

> > > > we only look at a very limited field in time. If the

beginning

> of

> > > the

> > > > story is "He decided to push the button and he did so", it

> seems

> > > > logical - of course, that's a decision, it's free will. But

if

> > you

> > > > digg deeper you see that that decision was made on 1000 of

> > factors

> > > > that all20was output/input in a caused manner since that

person

> > was

> > > > born. And even the event that he was born, even when he was

> > > conceived

> > > > is part of the reason why in that exact moment he opened the

> door.

> > > >

> > > > That's my view at least - I never decided to write this mail,

> it

> > > just

> > > > happened (some people would say I'm procrastinating on my

> essay -

> > > I

> > > > say procrastination is a nasty concept that removes us from

> the

> > > > ultimate truth that stuff just happens

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > - Jeppe

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > PS. I believe that free will is the most stress-inducing

belief

> > > ever.

> > > > You know, people that feel bad usually does so in two layers:

> 1)

> > > They

> > > > feel bad. 2) They feel bad about feeling bad.

> > > >

> > > > If they realized that they never decided to feel bad #1, they

> > > wouldn't

> > > > feel bad #2. And then #1 would probably also solve itself

much

> > > faster.

> > > > I think this20is what ACT is really about: Just watching

> reality,

> > > > seeing that it's all just happening.

> > > >

> > > > And when we realize that it's not US that have to accept

> things -

> > > but

> > > > actually our brain that has to accept stuff, and that that

> > process

> > > is

> > > > completely out of our control, then we're really in a state

of

> > > bliss

> > > > (even though our mind may be telling itself how stupid it is,

> > but -

> > >

> > > > you know. The mind will grow up one day. Just stop listening.

> > > You're

> > > > safe inside yourself. Just lean back and enjoy the ride.

(Which

> > is -

> > >

> > > > of course - much easier said than done)

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > --

> > > > Jeppe Kabell

> > > > kabell@

> > > >

> > > > UK: +44 7549947410

> > > > DK: +45 31102211

> > > >

> > > > Usher Halls, flat 176

> > > > The Burroughs

> > > > Hendon

> > > > London NW4 4HE

> > > >

> > > > http:

//www.linkedin .com/in/kabell

> > > > http://thecopenhage nproject. org

> > > > http://delicious. com/kabell/ ?setcount= 100

> > > > http://twitter. com/kabell

> > > > http://www.flickr. com/photos/ kabell/

> > > >

> > > > Den 25/11/2008 kl. 23.10 skrev kavyvinson:

> > > >

> > > > > Free Will,

> > > > >

> > > > > I'm, sitting on a sofa and I decide to have a banana. The

> image

> > of

> > > > > the banana pops into my mind and I have a craving for one.

I

> > did

> > > not

> > > > > decide this, this urge came from within. As I go towards

the

> > > banana I

> > > > > feel fat and I think that I have been eating too many

bananas

> > > > > recently so I decide not to have one. I think I have made a

> > > decision

> > > > > but all that happened was that a stronger urge came over

me –

> a

> > > > > desire to get slim. So I have made no decisions; I just

acted

> on

> > > > > desires and impulses which came withou

t my conscious

control.

> > > > >

> > > > > Now imagine a drug addict, he has a craving for a fix, but

he

> > > fights

> > > > > against it. He knows he will never be really happy if he

> keeps

> > > using

> > > > > the drug. That he has lost his wife, his job, etc. His

> craving

> > for

> > > > > the drug is immense, but he has an even greater desire to

be

> > > happy,

> > > > > have a lovely wife, a family, and a rewarding job. Every

now

> and

> > > > > again the desire for the drug overwhelmed him – who cares

> about

> > > all

> > > > > that when you can feel something more amazing than God,

even

> if

> > > it's

> > > > > only for a short while. He fights the desire and on this

> > occasion

> > > he

> > > > > wins.

> > > > >

> > > > > Can't you see that he does have free will, although very

> > limited?

> > > He

> > > > > is a human so he cannot choose to have the desires of a

dog.

> His

> > > > > desires and cravings are human, typical and preset. But he

> > fought

gt; > > > > with all his might and won. This was a combination of his

ego

> > and

> > > his

> > > > > unconscious. In my opinion the mistake that people make

when

> > they

> > > say

> > > > > we have no free will is to believe that the ego, our

> > > consciousness,

> > > > > is in the driving seat. The whole of our bodies make the

> > > decision. We

> > > > > are not free to choose our urges as such, but we can

motivate

> > > > > ourselves in a direction that is best for us. We have

> conscious

> > > > > control.

> > > > >

> > > > > Those that say we don't have free will are only half right.

> > > > > Ultimately we do have a free spirit, and all animals do,

but

> > only

> > > > > within the framework of what we were born to be.

> > > > >

> > > > > Kavy

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

Tis the season to save your money! Get the new AOL Holiday Toolbar for money saving offers and gift ideas.

[Guest guest]

I have that book but have not read it yet, but I came to that

conclusion too. That we have no free will but as we freely go with

our decisions - that is, the desires or urges that have won through -

and want them to happen - e.g. I want that cake and I can't wait to

get it - we are responsible for what we do. And yet we are programmed

to want to go with the winning desire - we would be a mess

otherwise.

Is it two faces, or it it a vase? It's like we do have free will but

the choice we finally make is the only choice we could have made.

Ford said you can have any color car you want as long as it is black.

Best to leave it there I think.

Kavy

> > > > >

> > > > > So where did the urge to not follow his original urge come

> > from?

> > > > Did

> > > > > he decide to have that urge?

> > > > >

> > > > > If we motivate ourselves in some direction - where did the

> > > > idea/urge

> > > > > to motivate ourselves come from?

> > > > >

> > > > > Having an urge override another urge is no argument for

free

> > will

> > > > (or

> > > > > half free will). It's just an interesting battle inside our

> > > minds -

> > > >

> > > > > that's my view at least. All urges, decisions, thoughts,

> > emotions

> > > > are

> > > > > caused by things in our environment, memory, emotions which

> > > > creates

> > > > > new memories and emotions. From memories, from values, from

> > > > > experience, from random chemical changes in our head

combined

> > > with

> > > > the

> > > > > environment springs what you may call life and decisions in

> > the

> > > > > present moment.

> > > > >

> > > > > The flaw in free will thinking is that we see events

> isolated -

> > > as

> > > > > having a beginning and an end. " He pushed the button, and

> then

> > > the

> > > > > door opened. Therefore he chose to open the door. " But what

> > made

> > > > him

> > > > > push the button? What made20him open the door? What made

him

> > want

> > > > to

> > > > > open the door? And for any answer to that you can continue

to

> > go

> > > > back

> > > > > in time and keep asking that same kind of question.

> Ultimately

> > > > it's

> > > > > the big bang, God, or whereever you think it all started (I

> > think

> > > > it

> > > > > didn't - because that's just another way of looking for a

> > > > beginning

> > > > > where someone had free will, another story.)

> > > > >

> > > > > We say we choose a value - but what makes us favor a value

> over

> > > > another?

> > > > > We say we choose to break a commitment - but what made us

> reach

> > > > that

> > > > > sum total of that decision?

> > > > >

> > > > > It's all causation. And we are just inside watching this

> > reality

> > > > > unfold as a movie. We just happen to hear all the

> negotiations

> > > > that

> > > > > one part of our mind makes with itself. But we have no say

in

> > > that

> > > > > conversation. When we realize that, it's not even us

> realizing

> > > it -

> > > >

> > > > > it's our mind realizing it. And we can take neither credit

or

> > > blame.

> > > > >

> > > > > An ACT related metaphor for that may be people riding

roller

> > > > coasters.

> > > > > Some people are scared, and believe they have more control

of

> > > the

> > > > > situation if they scream, get tense, close their eyes,20

> command

> > > the

> > > > > roller coaster to stop etc (and actually they may believe

it

> > > works

> > > > > because eventually - it will!). Other people know that when

> > they

> > > > first

> > > > > are in the wagon, they can't do anything, there's no

control,

> > so

> > > > they

> > > > > may just as well enjoy the ride. They lean back and relax.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > People in here may think that they chose to get into ACT.

But

> > > > where

> > > > > did you hear about it for the first time? Did you decide

> before

> > > > you

> > > > > knew about ACT, to find out about ACT? Of course not. It

just

> > > > > happened. Why didn't you reject ACT? Probably because it

> > > resonated

> > > > > with something you heard about in the past, or because

> someone

> > > you

> > > > > trusted recommended it. So, did you at any point just

decide

> to

> > > > have

> > > > > that former knowledge, or didn't it also just happen? When

> did

> > > you

> > > > > decide to trust that person? Did you decide to meet that

> > person?

> > > > Did

> > > > > you decide to be born? Did you decide to have the value of

> > > > proactively

> > > > > improving your life? etc. etc.

> > > > >

> > > > > Free will exist in mental stories we create. Free will

> requires

> > > > that

> > > > > we only look at a very limited field in time. If the

> beginning

> > of

>

> > > > the

> > > > > story is " He decided to push the button and he did so " , it

> > seems

> > > > > logical - of course, that's a decision, it's free will. But

> if

> > > you

> > > > > digg deeper you see that that decision was made on 1000 of

> > > factors

> > > > > that all was output/input in a caused manner since that

> person

> > > was

> > > > > born. And even the event that he was born, even when he was

> > > > conceived

> > > > > is part of the reason why in that exact moment he opened

the

> > door.

> > > > >

> > > > > That's my view at least - I never decided to write this

mail,

> > it

> > > > just

> > > > > happened (some people would say I'm procrastinating on my

> > essay -

> > > > I

> > > > > say procrastination is a nasty concept that removes us from

> > the

> > > > > ultimate truth that stuff just happens

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > - Jeppe

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > PS. I believe that free will is the most stress-inducing

> belief

> > > > ever.

> > > > > You know, people that feel bad usually does so in two

layers:

> > 1)

> > > > They

> > > > > feel bad. 2) They feel bad about feeling bad.

> > > > >

> > > > > If they realized that they never decided to feel bad #1,

they

> > > > wouldn't

> > > > > feel bad #2. And then #1 would probably also solve itself

> much

> > > > faster.

> > > > > I think this is what ACT is really=2

> 0about: Just watching

> > reality,

> > > > > seeing that it's all just happening.

> > > > >

> > > > > And when we realize that it's not US that have to accept

> > things -

> > > > but

> > > > > actually our brain that has to accept stuff, and that that

> > > process

> > > > is

> > > > > completely out of our control, then we're really in a state

> of

> > > > bliss

> > > > > (even though our mind may be telling itself how stupid it

is,

> > > but -

> > > >

> > > > > you know. The mind will grow up one day. Just stop

listening.

> > > > You're

> > > > > safe inside yourself. Just lean back and enjoy the ride.

> (Which

> > > is -

> > > >

> > > > > of course - much easier said than done)

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > --

> > > > > Jeppe Kabell

> > > > > kabell@

> > > > >

> > > > > UK: +44 7549947410

> > > > > DK: +45 31102211

> > > > >

> > > > > Usher Halls, flat 176

> > > > > The Burroughs

> > > > > Hendon

> > > > > London NW4 4HE

> > > > >

> > > > > http://www.linkedin .com/in/kabell

> > > > > http://thecopenhage nproject. org

> > > > > http://delicious. com/kabell/ ?setcount= 100

> > > > > http://twitter. com/kabell

> > > > > http://www.flickr. com/photos/ kabell/

> > > > >

> > > > > Den 25/11/2008 kl. 23.10 skrev kavyvinson:

> > > > >

> > > > > > Free Will,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I'm, sitting on a sofa and I decide to have a banana. The

> > image

> > > of

> > > > > > the banana

> pops into my mind and I have a craving for one.

> I

> > > did

> > > > not

> > > > > > decide this, this urge came from within. As I go towards

> the

> > > > banana I

> > > > > > feel fat and I think that I have been eating too many

> bananas

> > > > > > recently so I decide not to have one. I think I have made

a

> > > > decision

> > > > > > but all that happened was that a stronger urge came over

> me †"

> > a

> > > > > > desire to get slim. So I have made no decisions; I just

> acted

> > on

> > > > > > desires and impulses which came without my conscious

> control.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Now imagine a drug addict, he has a craving for a fix,

but

> he

> > > > fights

> > > > > > against it. He knows he will never be really happy if he

> > keeps

> > > > using

> > > > > > the drug. That he has lost his wife, his job, etc. His

> > craving

> > > for

> > > > > > the drug is immense, but he has an even greater desire to

> be

> > > > happy,

> > > > > > have a lovely wife, a family, and a rewarding job. Every

> now

> > and

> > > > > > again the desire for the drug overwhelmed him †" who

cares

> > about

> > > > all

> > > > > > that when you can feel something more amazing than God,

> even

> > if

> > > > it's

> > > > > > only for a short while. He fights the desire and on this

> > > occasion

> > > > he

> > > > > > wins.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Can't you=2

> 0see that he does have free will, although very

> > > limited?

> > > > He

> > > > > > is a human so he cannot choose to have the desires of a

> dog.

> > His

> > > > > > desires and cravings are human, typical and preset. But

he

> > > fought

> > > > > > with all his might and won. This was a combination of his

> ego

> > > and

> > > > his

> > > > > > unconscious. In my opinion the mistake that people make

> when

> > > they

> > > > say

> > > > > > we have no free will is to believe that the ego, our

> > > > consciousness,

> > > > > > is in the driving seat. The whole of our bodies make the

> > > > decision. We

> > > > > > are not free to choose our urges as such, but we can

> motivate

> > > > > > ourselves in a direction that is best for us. We have

> > conscious

> > > > > > control.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Those that say we don't have free will are only half

right.

> > > > > > Ultimately we do have a free spirit, and all animals do,

> but

> > > only

> > > > > > within the framework of what we were born to be.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Kavy

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Kavy:

You are right.

Bill

Van Nuts, California

Re: Free Will

I have that book but have not read it yet, but I came to that

conclusion too. That we have no free will but as we freely go with

our decisions - that is, the desires or urges that have won through -

and want them to happen - e.g. I want that cake and I can't wait to

get it - we are responsible for what we do. And yet we are programmed

to want to go with the winning desire - we would be a mess

otherwise.

Is it two faces, or it it a vase? It's like we do have free will but

the choice we finally make is the only choice we could have made.

Ford said you can have any color car you want as long as it is black.

Best to leave it there I think.

Kavy

> > > > >

> > > > > So where did the urge to not follow his original urge come

> > from?

> > > > Did

> > > > > he decide to have that urge?

> > > > >

> > > > > If we motivate ourselves in some directi

on - where did the

> > > > idea/urge

> > > > > to motivate ourselves come from?

> > > > >

> > > > > Having an urge override another urge is no argument for

free

> > will

> > > > (or

> > > > > half free will). It's just an interesting battle inside our

> > > minds -

> > > >

> > > > > that's my view at least. All urges, decisions, thoughts,

> > emotions

> > > > are

> > > > > caused by things in our environment, memory, emotions which

> > > > creates

> > > > > new memories and emotions. From memories, from values, from

> > > > > experience, from random chemical changes in our head

combined

> > > with

> > > > the

> > > > > environment springs what you may call life and decisions in

> > the

> > > > > present moment.

> > > > >

> > > > > The flaw in free will thinking is that we see events

> isolated -

> > > as

> > > > > having a beginning and an end. "He pushed the button, and

> then

> > > the

> > > > > door opened. Therefore he chose to open the door." But what

> > made

> > > > him

> > > > > push the button? What made20him open the door? What made

him

> > want

> > > > to

> > > > > open the door? And for any answer to that you can continue

to

> > go

> > > > back

> > > > > in time and keep asking that same kind of question.

> Ultimately

> > > > it's

> > > > > the big bang, God, or whereever you think it all started (I

> > think

> > > > it

> > > > > didn't - because that's just another way of looking for a

> > > > beginning

> > > > > where someone had free will, another story.)

> > > > >

> > > > > We say we choose a value - but what makes us favor a value

> over

> > > > another?

> > > > > We say we choose to break a commitment - but what made us

> reach

> > > > that

> > > > > sum total of that decision?

> > > > >

> > > > > It's all causation. And we are just inside watching this

> > reality

> > > > > unfold as a movie. We just happen to hear all the

> negotiations

> > > > that

> > > > > one part of our mind makes with its

elf. But we have no say

in

> > > that

> > > > > conversation. When we realize that, it's not even us

> realizing

> > > it -

> > > >

> > > > > it's our mind realizing it. And we can take neither credit

or

> > > blame.

> > > > >

> > > > > An ACT related metaphor for that may be people riding

roller

> > > > coasters.

> > > > > Some people are scared, and believe they have more control

of

> > > the

> > > > > situation if they scream, get tense, close their eyes,20

> command

> > > the

> > > > > roller coaster to stop etc (and actually they may believe

it

> > > works

> > > > > because eventually - it will!). Other people know that when

> > they

> > > > first

> > > > > are in the wagon, they can't do anything, there's no

control,

> > so

> > > > they

> > > > > may just as well enjoy the ride. They lean back and relax.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > People in here may think that they chose to get into ACT.

But

> > > > where

> > > > &g

t; did you hear about it for the first time? Did you decide

> before

> > > > you

> > > > > knew about ACT, to find out about ACT? Of course not. It

just

> > > > > happened. Why didn't you reject ACT? Probably because it

> > > resonated

> > > > > with something you heard about in the past, or because

> someone

> > > you

> > > > > trusted recommended it. So, did you at any point just

decide

> to

> > > > have

> > > > > that former knowledge, or didn't it also just happen? When

> did

> > > you

> > > > > decide to trust that person? Did you decide to meet that

> > person?

> > > > Did

> > > > > you decide to be born? Did you decide to have the value of

> > > > proactively

> > > > > improving your life? etc. etc.

> > > > >

> > > > > Free will exist in mental stories we create. Free will

> requires

> > > > that

> > > > > we only look at a very limited field in time. If the

> beginning

> > of

>

> > > > the

> > > > > story is "He decided to push the button and he did so", it

> > seems

> > > > > logical - of course, that's a decision, it's free will. But

> if

> > > you

> > > > > digg deeper you see that that decision was made on 1000 of

> > > factors

> > > > > that all was output/input in a caused manner since that

> person

> > > was

> > > > > born. And even the event that he was born, even when he was

> > > > conceived

> > > > > is part of the reason why in that exact moment he opened

the

> > door.

> > > > >

> > > > > That's my view at least - I never decided to write this

mail,

> > it

> > > > just

> > > > > happened (some people would say I'm procrastinating on my

> > essay -

> > > > I

> > > > > say procrastination is a nasty concept that removes us from

> > the

> > > > > ultimate truth that stuff just happens

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > - Jeppe

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > PS. I believe that free will is the most stress-inducing

> belief

> > > > ever.

> > > > > You know, people that feel bad usually does so in t

wo

layers:

> > 1)

> > > > They

> > > > > feel bad. 2) They feel bad about feeling bad.

> > > > >

> > > > > If they realized that they never decided to feel bad #1,

they

> > > > wouldn't

> > > > > feel bad #2. And then #1 would probably also solve itself

> much

> > > > faster.

> > > > > I think this is what ACT is really=2

> 0about: Just watching

> > reality,

> > > > > seeing that it's all just happening.

> > > > >

> > > > > And when we realize that it's not US that have to accept

> > things -

> > > > but

> > > > > actually our brain that has to accept stuff, and that that

> > > process

> > > > is

> > > > > completely out of our control, then we're really in a state

> of

> > > > bliss

> > > > > (even though our mind may be telling itself how stupid it

is,

> > > but -

> > > >

> > > > > you know. The mind will grow up one day. Just stop

listening.

> > > > You're

> > > > > safe inside yourself. Just lean back and enjoy the ride.

> (Which

> > > is -

> > > >

> > > > > of course - much easier said than done)

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > --

> > > > > Jeppe Kabell

> > > > > kabell@

> > > > >

> > > > > UK: +44 7549947410

> > > > > DK: +45 31102211

> > > > >

> > > > > Usher Halls, flat 176

> > > > > The Burroughs

> > > > > Hendon

> > > > > London NW4 4HE

> > > > >

> > > > > http://www.linkedin .com/in/kabell

> > > > > http://thecopenhage nproject. org

> > > > > http://delicious. com/kabell/ ?setcount= 100

> > > > > http://twitter. com/kabell

> > > > > http://www.flickr. com/photos/ kabell/

> > > > >

> > > > > Den 25/11/2008 kl. 23.10 skrev kavyvinson:

> > > > >

> > > > > > Free Will,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I'm, sitting on a sofa and I decide to have a banana. The

> > image

> > > of

> > > > > > the banana

> pops into my mind and I have a craving for one.

> I

> > > did

> > > > not

> > > > > > decide this, this urge came from within. As I go towards

> the

> > > > banana I

> > > > > > feel fat and I think that I have been eating too many

> bananas

> > > > > > recently so I decide not to have one. I think I have made

a

> > > > decision

> > > > > > but all that happened was that a stronger urge came over

> me â€"

> > a

> > > > > > desire to get slim. So I have made no decisions; I just

> acted

> > on

> > > > > > desires and impulses which came without my conscious

> control.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Now imagine a drug addict, he has a craving for a fix,

but

> he

> > > > fights

> > > > > > against it. He knows he will never be really happy if he

> > keeps

> > > > using

> > > > > > the drug. That he has lost his wife, his job, etc. His

> > craving

> > > for

> > > > > > the drug is immense, but he has an even greater desire to

> be

> > > &gt

; happy,

> > > > > > have a lovely wife, a family, and a rewarding job. Every

> now

> > and

> > > > > > again the desire for the drug overwhelmed him â€" who

cares

> > about

> > > > all

> > > > > > that when you can feel something more amazing than God,

> even

> > if

> > > > it's

> > > > > > only for a short while. He fights the desire and on this

> > > occasion

> > > > he

> > > > > > wins.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Can't you=2

> 0see that he does have free will, although very

> > > limited?

> > > > He

> > > > > > is a human so he cannot choose to have the desires of a

> dog.

> > His

> > > > > > desires and cravings are human, typical and preset. But

he

> > > fought

> > > > > > with all his might and won. This was a combination of his

> ego

> > > and

> > > > his

> > > > > > unconscious. In my opinion the mistake that people make

> when

> > > they

> > > > say

> > > > > > we have no free will is to believe that the ego, our=2

0

> > > > consciousness,

> > > > > > is in the driving seat. The whole of our bodies make the

> > > > decision. We

> > > > > > are not free to choose our urges as such, but we can

> motivate

> > > > > > ourselves in a direction that is best for us. We have

> > conscious

> > > > > > control.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Those that say we don't have free will are only half

right.

> > > > > > Ultimately we do have a free spirit, and all animals do,

> but

> > > only

> > > > > > within the framework of what we were born to be.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Kavy

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

Tis the season to save your money! Get the new AOL Holiday Toolbar for money saving offers and gift ideas.

[Guest guest]

So my emails from Thanksgiving Day are finally getting posted--thanks Yahoo : (

We've pretty much exhausted this topic, I think, so please feel free to ignore this late post, unless you want to add anything further.

Best,

Helena

RE: Re: Free Will

Hi everyone

I have to say that this conversation worries me a bit, largely because the whole issue of free will is so complex and depends so much on definition that it is really impossible to say with any degree of certainty whether or not there is any such thing as “free will”. It is an idea that philosophers have been debating probably since ancient Greece, and are no closer to agreement now than they were then. I do think we run the risk of getting bogged in a philosophical quagmire; this may be fun if we want to engage in a theoretical discussion/argument. But in practical day-to-day terms, it is likely to cause confusion.

For me, this issue is simple. Am I responsible for my own behaviour? I don’t believe that it is socially acceptable to hide behind a deterministic façade, or to blame my behaviour on anyone else. “He/she/the government/God made me do it” is not acceptable. The answer is that I chose to do it, whether as a result of a conscious exploration of options or as a habitual/instinctive response. And my previous conditioning and experience does not excuse my actions even though it may help to explain them.

This is where ACT becomes important. Did my action lead me along the path towards a rich, full and meaningful life? Or, in other words, did I take a committed action that will tend to operationalise my values? Or, alternatively, how well did my behaviour fulfil the “workability” test? If the answer is positive, then do more of it. If the answer is negative, there are probably issues of defusion and/or experiential avoidance to be considered.

Regards

Kinna

This e-mail is personal. It is not authorised by, nor sent on behalf of the Department of Health or the Government of South Australia.

From: ACT_for_the_Public [mailto:ACT_for_the_Public ] On Behalf Of Jeppe KabellSent: Thursday, 27 November 2008 4:26 PMTo: ACT_for_the_Public Subject: Re: Re: Free Will

Hi Stan,

Yes I'm aware of the site and a member of the list. I still don't think the last word has been said on society, free will, responsibility etc.

To me this is more a question of being able to work from multiple perspectives at the same time - and also to look at it from different psychological perspectives.

Ultimately I find it hard to deny, that if there's no free will, then there's really no responsibility too. So I guess when you say "resbonsible" you mean, that if I do a criminal act I'm a "problem" (unwillingly) in the system, and therefore I have to be "caused" into changing behaviour - e.g. by being put into jail? This is not done to "punish" me in the sense of getting "revenge" or "justice", but simply to change my behaviour in the future and for MY sake ("Do you know how much it hurts to hit people?" - Byron ). (That's the only logical reason I see doing it if we agree there's no free will).

I disagree on what you write - that "I'm the cause of whatever effects following my actions".

I really don't think you are. That's just a story, starting in time from the point where you did the action. In reality that action was caused by anything happening in the whole universe up to that point in time, so we might just as well say that your grandfather is the cause of whatever effects following your actions Or blame it on being in the world with so many inputs hitting us each second. But ultimately you and everything you do is just as much a an effect as is the effect of your actions.

Back on track!

I understand how many people can't just accept the idea that we don't have free will, that everything is just happening outside of it. I have found a very usefull perspective to live by, which sort of combines the two things. This is especially usefull in relation to guilt.

I suggest people that they adobt an attitude of thinking "Whatever happened in the PAST is not my responsibility. It wasn't my fault. I'm not guilty. I couldn't have acted any other way with the same thoughts and circumstances. Not possible!" And even if you're in prinson this is true - we're talking about psychological guilt here, not guilt according to law. Of course you should on a logical, detached level learn from your mistakes, update your values, assure that you start working in another directions than your wrongdoings. But don't feel guilty for too long. It's unproductive. So looking back = no free will = not guilty = not your fault. Really!

Looking forward, though, it can be very usefull to have an attitude of thinking "The FUTURE is my responsibility. I have choices to make. I will go in a different direction. I will choose to change path, and I will find out how to do it." Having an attitude of free will while looking forward is empowering to most people. It can also be the cause of stress though, so watch out. But to recap: Looking towards the future = free will = responsible = empowering.

How it relates to ACT? Well, realizing that thoughts just are thoughts, isn't that exactly the whole point of not having free will? That thoughts just pop up? I see the whole "free will is not really true"-realization as extremely beneficial for the A-part of ACT.

It also relates a lot to the mindfullness part of ACT. If I'm not my thoughts, and if thoughts just happens - then who am I? The observing self? The whole body? What's the consequence of me thinking when I make decisions - especially if I don't choose my own thoughts? And again: One thing is what we scientifically define as "I", but what do we refer to when we talk about "I", "me" etc? And then we start approaching a spiritual level, which ACT really isn't connected to - but then on the other hand you could also say, that ACT is all about spirituality.

Den 27/11/2008 kl. 06.12 skrev Stan:

Jeppe,Have you checked out the scientific naturalism website at http://www.naturalism.org? It's run by Tom , and it contains a lot of very good articles about the implausibility of contra-causal free will (ie, being able to make decisions uncaused by any prior caused, and what the consequences are for justice and society.I'm not sure what all this has to do with ACT, but since I've seen very clearly that I don't have free will, I've been a lot happier. Given my genetic make and the circumstances I found myself in when I did whatever I did, I couldn't have done otherwise than I did.However, not having free will isn't a stay-out-of-jail-free card. I'm still responsible for what I do and say, since I'm the cause of whatever effects following my actions.Also, if you dig around the site, you'll find a couple of interesting articles about addiction.Cheers,StanMelbourne, Australia>> So where did the urge to not follow his original urge come from? Did > he decide to have that urge?> > If we motivate ourselves in some direction - where did the idea/urge > to motivate ourselves come from?> > Having an urge override another urge is no argument for free will (or > half free will). It's just an interesting battle inside our minds -> that's my view at least. All urges, decisions, thoughts, emotions are > caused by things in our environment, memory, emotions which creates > new memories and emotions. From memories, from values, from > experience, from random chemical changes in our head combined with the > environment springs what you may call life and decisions in the > present moment.> > The flaw in free will thinking is that we see events isolated - as > having a beginning and an end. "He pushed the button, and then the > door opened. Therefore he chose to open the door." But what made him > push the button? What made him open the door? What made him want to > open the door? And for any answer to that you can continue to go back > in time and keep asking that same kind of question. Ultimately it's > the big bang, God, or whereever you think it all started (I think it > didn't - because that's just another way of looking for a beginning > where someone had free will, another story.)> > We say we choose a value - but what makes us favor a value over another?> We say we choose to break a commitment - but what made us reach that > sum total of that decision?> > It's all causation. And we are just inside watching this reality > unfold as a movie. We just happen to hear all the negotiations that > one part of our mind makes with itself. But we have no say in that > conversation. When we realize that, it's not even us realizing it -> it's our mind realizing it. And we can take neither credit or blame.> > An ACT related metaphor for that may be people riding roller coasters. > Some people are scared, and believe they have more control of the > situation if they scream, get tense, close their eyes, command the > roller coaster to stop etc (and actually they may believe it works > because eventually - it will!). Other people know that when they first > are in the wagon, they can't do anything, there's no control, so they > may just as well enjoy the ride. They lean back and relax.> > > > People in here may think that they chose to get into ACT. But where > did you hear about it for the first time? Did you decide before you > knew about ACT, to find out about ACT? Of course not. It just > happened. Why didn't you reject ACT? Probably because it resonated > with something you heard about in the past, or because someone you > trusted recommended it. So, did you at any point just decide to have > that former knowledge, or didn't it also just happen? When did you > decide to trust that person? Did you decide to meet that person? Did > you decide to be born? Did you decide to have the value of proactively > improving your life? etc. etc.> > Free will exist in mental stories we create. Free will requires that > we only look at a very limited field in time. If the beginning of the > story is "He decided to push the button and he did so", it seems > logical - of course, that's a decision, it's free will. But if you > digg deeper you see that that decision was made on 1000 of factors > that all was output/input in a caused manner since that person was > born. And even the event that he was born, even when he was conceived > is part of the reason why in that exact moment he opened the door.> > That's my view at least - I never decided to write this mail, it just > happened (some people would say I'm procrastinating on my essay - I > say procrastination is a nasty concept that removes us from the > ultimate truth that stuff just happens > > > - Jeppe> > > PS. I believe that free will is the most stress-inducing belief ever. > You know, people that feel bad usually does so in two layers: 1) They > feel bad. 2) They feel bad about feeling bad.> > If they realized that they never decided to feel bad #1, they wouldn't > feel bad #2. And then #1 would probably also solve itself much faster. > I think this is what ACT is really about: Just watching reality, > seeing that it's all just happening.> > And when we realize that it's not US that have to accept things - but > actually our brain that has to accept stuff, and that that process is > completely out of our control, then we're really in a state of bliss > (even though our mind may be telling itself how stupid it is, but -> you know. The mind will grow up one day. Just stop listening. You're > safe inside yourself. Just lean back and enjoy the ride. (Which is -> of course - much easier said than done)> > > -- > Jeppe Kabell> kabell@...> > UK: +44 7549947410> DK: +45 31102211> > Usher Halls, flat 176> The Burroughs> Hendon> London NW4 4HE> > http://www.linkedin.com/in/kabell> http://thecopenhagenprojectorg> http://delicious.com/kabell/?setcount=100> http://twitter.com/kabell> http://www.flickr.com/photos/kabell/> > Den 25/11/2008 kl. 23.10 skrev kavyvinson:> > > Free Will,> >> > I'm, sitting on a sofa and I decide to have a banana. The image of> > the banana pops into my mind and I have a craving for one. I did not> > decide this, this urge came from within. As I go towards the banana I> > feel fat and I think that I have been eating too many bananas> > recently so I decide not to have one. I think I have made a decision> > but all that happened was that a stronger urge came over me – a> > desire to get slim. So I have made no decisions; I just acted on> > desires and impulses which came without my conscious control.> >> > Now imagine a drug addict, he has a craving for a fix, but he fights> > against it. He knows he will never be really happy if he keeps using> > the drug. That he has lost his wife, his job, etc. His craving for> > the drug is immense, but he has an even greater desire to be happy,> > have a lovely wife, a family, and a rewarding job. Every now and> > again the desire for the drug overwhelmed him – who cares about all> > that when you can feel something more amazing than God, even if it's> > only for a short while. He fights the desire and on this occasion he> > wins.> >> > Can't you see that he does have free will, although very limited? He> > is a human so he cannot choose to have the desires of a dog. His> > desires and cravings are human, typical and preset. But he fought> > with all his might and won. This was a combination of his ego and his> > unconscious. In my opinion the mistake that people make when they say> > we have no free will is to believe that the ego, our consciousness,> > is in the driving seat. The whole of our bodies make the decision. We> > are not free to choose our urges as such, but we can motivate> > ourselves in a direction that is best for us. We have conscious> > control.> >> > Those that say we don't have free will are only half right.> > Ultimately we do have a free spirit, and all animals do, but only> > within the framework of what we were born to be.> >> > Kavy> >> >> >>

[Guest guest]

Thanks for saying that, Bill. I guess there are topics that tend to push people's buttons in a hot or cold way, and perhaps this is one of them. Some are drawn to such 'hot-button' topics and others want to steer clear. I think it is great that you are willing to reexamine your initial reaction to this topic to see if there is something to learn from it.

Best.

Helena

Re: Free WillWow, great post Jeppe. Thanks for taking the time to write it. >> So where did the urge to not follow his original urge come from? Did > he decide to have that urge?> > If we motivate ourselves in some direction - where did the idea/urge > to motivate ourselves come from?> > Having an urge override another urge is no argument for free will (or > half free will). It's just an interesting battle inside our minds -> that's my view at least. All urges, decisions, thoughts, emotions are > caused by things in our environment, memory, emotions which creates > new memories and emotions. From memories, from values, from > experience, from random chemical changes in our head combined with the > environment springs what you may call life and decisions in the > present moment.> > The flaw in free will thinking is that we see events isolated - as > having a beginning and an end. "He pushed the button, and then the > door opened. Therefore he chose to open the door." But what made him > push the button? What made him open the door? What made him want to > open the door? And for any answer to that you can continue to go back > in time and keep asking that same kind of question. Ultimately it's > the big bang, God, or whereever you think it all started (I think it > didn't - because that's just another way of looking for a beginning > where someone had free will, another story.)> > We say we choose a value - but what makes us favor a value over another?> We say we choose to break a commitment - but what made us reach that > sum total of that decision?> > It's all causation. And we are just inside watching this reality > unfold as a movie. We just happen to hear all the negotiations that > one part of our mind makes with itself. But we have no say in that > conversation. When we realize that, it's not even us realizing it -> it's our mind realizing it. And we can take neither credit or blame.> > An ACT related metaphor for that may be people riding roller coasters. > Some people are scared, and believe they have more control of the > situation if they scream, get tense, close their eyes, command the > roller coaster to stop etc (and actually they may believe it works > because eventually - it will!). Other people know that when they first > are in the wagon, they can't do anything, there's no control, so they > may just as well enjoy the ride. They lean back and relax.> > > > People in here may think that they chose to get into ACT. But where > did you hear about it for the first time? Did you decide before you > knew about ACT, to find out about ACT? Of course not. It just > happened. Why didn't you reject ACT? Probably because it resonated > with something you heard about in the past, or because someone you > trusted recommended it. So, did you at any point just decide to have > that former knowledge, or didn't it also just happen? When did you > decide to trust that person? Did you decide to meet that person? Did > you decide to be born? Did you decide to have the value of proactively > improving your life? etc. etc.> > Free will exist in mental stories we create. Free will requires that > we only look at a very limited field in time. If the beginning of the > story is "He decided to push the button and he did so", it seems > logical - of course, that's a decision, it's free will. But if you > digg deeper you see that that decision was made on 1000 of factors > that all was output/input in a caused manner since that person was > born. And even the event that he was born, even when he was conceived > is part of the reason why in that exact moment he opened the door.> > That's my view at least - I never decided to write this mail, it just > happened (some people would say I'm procrastinating on my essay - I > say procrastination is a nasty concept that removes us from the > ultimate truth that stuff just happens > > > - Jeppe> > > PS. I believe that free will is the most stress-inducing belief ever. > You know, people that feel bad usually does so in two layers: 1) They > feel bad. 2) They feel bad about feeling bad.> > If they realized that they never decided to feel bad #1, they wouldn't > feel bad #2. And then #1 would probably also solve itself much faster. > I think this is what ACT is really about: Just watching reality, > seeing that it's all just happening.> > And when we realize that it's not US that have to accept things - but > actually our brain that has to accept stuff, and that that process is > completely out of our control, then we're really in a state of bliss > (even though our mind may be telling itself how stupid it is, but -> you know. The mind will grow up one day. Just stop listening. You're > safe inside yourself. Just lean back and enjoy the ride. (Which is -> of course - much easier said than done)> > > -- > Jeppe Kabell> kabell@...> > UK: +44 7549947410> DK: +45 31102211> > Usher Halls, flat 176> The Burroughs> Hendon> London NW4 4HE> > http://www.linkedin.com/in/kabell> http://thecopenhagenproject.org> http://delicious.com/kabell/?setcount=100> http://twitter.com/kabell> http://www.flickr.com/photos/kabell/> > Den 25/11/2008 kl. 23.10 skrev kavyvinson:> > > Free Will,> >> > I'm, sitting on a sofa and I decide to have a banana. The image of> > the banana pops into my mind and I have a craving for one. I did not> > decide this, this urge came from within. As I go towards the banana I> > feel fat and I think that I have been eating too many bananas> > recently so I decide not to have one. I think I have made a decision> > but all that happened was that a stronger urge came over me – a> > desire to get slim. So I have made no decisions; I just acted on> > desires and impulses which came without my conscious control.> >> > Now imagine a drug addict, he has a craving for a fix, but he fights> > against it. He knows he will never be really happy if he keeps using> > the drug. That he has lost his wife, his job, etc. His craving for> > the drug is immense, but he has an even greater desire to be happy,> > have a lovely wife, a family, and a rewarding job. Every now and> > again the desire for the drug overwhelmed him – who cares about all> > that when you can feel something more amazing than God, even if it's> > only for a short while. He fights the desire and on this occasion he> > wins.> >> > Can't you see that he does have free will, although very limited? He> > is a human so he cannot choose to have the desires of a dog. His> > desires and cravings are human, typical and preset. But he fought> > with all his might and won. This was a combination of his ego and his> > unconscious. In my opinion the mistake that people make when they say> > we have no free will is to believe that the ego, our consciousness,> > is in the driving seat. The whole of our bodies make the decision. We> > are not free to choose our urges as such, but we can motivate> > ourselves in a direction that is best for us. We have conscious> > control.> >> > Those that say we don't have free will are only half right.> > Ultimately we do have a free spirit, and all animals do, but only> > within the framework of what we were born to be.> >> > Kavy> >> >> >>

[Guest guest]

>

> I would love to debate with you Robyn but I think folks have got fed

> up with it. I started out to prove that we did have free will, which

> I was passionate about because it is life giving. I ended seeing that

> we don't have much free will but I still believe we do although I

> can't figure it out.

>

> Kavy

Well, no one has manaed to bring us to order so maybe that says

something! Maybe free will has nothing to do with ACT but really I

don't think it matters whether in reality we have free will or not, ie

we may well all be creatures driven by our genetic makeup etc. and

there may well be a way everything can be explained away as chemistry

etc..

owever, that's not the point as individuals we feel as though we are

making choices in some limited way or other and it how we feel as

individuals within some sort of existence that could well mean we have

no actual free will that counts. We have to deal with how we perceive

our lives with the choices that we feel we have.

I don't think any individual alive could say they don't feel they have

decisions they are responsible for. It's whether you let that

responsibility overwhelm you or on the other hand whether you act as if

you are out of control just giving in to impulses that matters. Even if

having values that you can choose to live by is a complete illusion in

the greater scheme of things its an illusion we're stuck with as human

beings and one I'm happy to accept.

Sp maybe start from the beginning and say I'm going to choose some

values and try to live by them and seewhat happens?

Louise