Free Will

November 25, 2008

Free Will,

I'm, sitting on a sofa and I decide to have a banana. The image of

the banana pops into my mind and I have a craving for one. I did not

decide this, this urge came from within. As I go towards the banana I

feel fat and I think that I have been eating too many bananas

recently so I decide not to have one. I think I have made a decision

but all that happened was that a stronger urge came over me – a

desire to get slim. So I have made no decisions; I just acted on

desires and impulses which came without my conscious control.

Now imagine a drug addict, he has a craving for a fix, but he fights

against it. He knows he will never be really happy if he keeps using

the drug. That he has lost his wife, his job, etc. His craving for

the drug is immense, but he has an even greater desire to be happy,

have a lovely wife, a family, and a rewarding job. Every now and

again the desire for the drug overwhelmed him – who cares about all

that when you can feel something more amazing than God, even if it's

only for a short while. He fights the desire and on this occasion he

wins.

Can't you see that he does have free will, although very limited? He

is a human so he cannot choose to have the desires of a dog. His

desires and cravings are human, typical and preset. But he fought

with all his might and won. This was a combination of his ego and his

unconscious. In my opinion the mistake that people make when they say

we have no free will is to believe that the ego, our consciousness,

is in the driving seat. The whole of our bodies make the decision. We

are not free to choose our urges as such, but we can motivate

ourselves in a direction that is best for us. We have conscious

control.

Those that say we don't have free will are only half right.

Ultimately we do have a free spirit, and all animals do, but only

within the framework of what we were born to be.

Kavy

November 25, 2008

I should have said we have conscious and unconscious control, and we

make much of our decisions partly unconsciously. Our desire, although

unconscious, is also our free will. Our will is the whole of

ourselves.

Kavy

>

> Free Will,

>

> I'm, sitting on a sofa and I decide to have a banana. The image of

> the banana pops into my mind and I have a craving for one. I did

not

> decide this, this urge came from within. As I go towards the banana

I

> feel fat and I think that I have been eating too many bananas

> recently so I decide not to have one. I think I have made a

decision

> but all that happened was that a stronger urge came over me – a

> desire to get slim. So I have made no decisions; I just acted on

> desires and impulses which came without my conscious control.

>

> Now imagine a drug addict, he has a craving for a fix, but he

fights

> against it. He knows he will never be really happy if he keeps

using

> the drug. That he has lost his wife, his job, etc. His craving for

> the drug is immense, but he has an even greater desire to be happy,

> have a lovely wife, a family, and a rewarding job. Every now and

> again the desire for the drug overwhelmed him – who cares about all

> that when you can feel something more amazing than God, even if

it's

> only for a short while. He fights the desire and on this occasion

he

> wins.

>

> Can't you see that he does have free will, although very limited?

He

> is a human so he cannot choose to have the desires of a dog. His

> desires and cravings are human, typical and preset. But he fought

> with all his might and won. This was a combination of his ego and

his

> unconscious. In my opinion the mistake that people make when they

say

> we have no free will is to believe that the ego, our consciousness,

> is in the driving seat. The whole of our bodies make the decision.

We

> are not free to choose our urges as such, but we can motivate

> ourselves in a direction that is best for us. We have conscious

> control.

>

> Those that say we don't have free will are only half right.

> Ultimately we do have a free spirit, and all animals do, but only

> within the framework of what we were born to be.

>

> Kavy

>

November 26, 2008

So where did the urge to not follow his original urge come from? Did he decide to have that urge?If we motivate ourselves in some direction - where did the idea/urge to motivate ourselves come from?Having an urge override another urge is no argument for free will (or half free will). It's just an interesting battle inside our minds - that's my view at least. All urges, decisions, thoughts, emotions are caused by things in our environment, memory, emotions which creates new memories and emotions. From memories, from values, from experience, from random chemical changes in our head combined with the environment springs what you may call life and decisions in the present moment.The flaw in free will thinking is that we see events isolated - as having a beginning and an end. "He pushed the button, and then the door opened. Therefore he chose to open the door." But what made him push the button? What made him open the door? What made him want to open the door? And for any answer to that you can continue to go back in time and keep asking that same kind of question. Ultimately it's the big bang, God, or whereever you think it all started (I think it didn't - because that's just another way of looking for a beginning where someone had free will, another story.)We say we choose a value - but what makes us favor a value over another?We say we choose to break a commitment - but what made us reach that sum total of that decision?It's all causation. And we are just inside watching this reality unfold as a movie. We just happen to hear all the negotiations that one part of our mind makes with itself. But we have no say in that conversation. When we realize that, it's not even us realizing it - it's our mind realizing it. And we can take neither credit or blame.An ACT related metaphor for that may be people riding roller coasters. Some people are scared, and believe they have more control of the situation if they scream, get tense, close their eyes, command the roller coaster to stop etc (and actually they may believe it works because eventually - it will!). Other people know that when they first are in the wagon, they can't do anything, there's no control, so they may just as well enjoy the ride. They lean back and relax.People in here may think that they chose to get into ACT. But where did you hear about it for the first time? Did you decide before you knew about ACT, to find out about ACT? Of course not. It just happened. Why didn't you reject ACT? Probably because it resonated with something you heard about in the past, or because someone you trusted recommended it. So, did you at any point just decide to have that former knowledge, or didn't it also just happen? When did you decide to trust that person? Did you decide to meet that person? Did you decide to be born? Did you decide to have the value of proactively improving your life? etc. etc.Free will exist in mental stories we create. Free will requires that we only look at a very limited field in time. If the beginning of the story is "He decided to push the button and he did so", it seems logical - of course, that's a decision, it's free will. But if you digg deeper you see that that decision was made on 1000 of factors that all was output/input in a caused manner since that person was born. And even the event that he was born, even when he was conceived is part of the reason why in that exact moment he opened the door.That's my view at least - I never decided to write this mail, it just happened (some people would say I'm procrastinating on my essay - I say procrastination is a nasty concept that removes us from the ultimate truth that stuff just happens - JeppePS. I believe that free will is the most stress-inducing belief ever. You know, people that feel bad usually does so in two layers: 1) They feel bad. 2) They feel bad about feeling bad.If they realized that they never decided to feel bad #1, they wouldn't feel bad #2. And then #1 would probably also solve itself much faster. I think this is what ACT is really about: Just watching reality, seeing that it's all just happening. And when we realize that it's not US that have to accept things - but actually our brain that has to accept stuff, and that that process is completely out of our control, then we're really in a state of bliss (even though our mind may be telling itself how stupid it is, but - you know. The mind will grow up one day. Just stop listening. You're safe inside yourself. Just lean back and enjoy the ride. (Which is - of course - much easier said than done)-- Jeppe Kabellkabell@...UK: +44 7549947410DK: +45 31102211Usher Halls, flat 176The BurroughsHendonLondon NW4 4HEhttp://www.linkedin.com/in/kabellhttp://thecopenhagenproject.orghttp://delicious.com/kabell/?setcount=100http://twitter.com/kabellhttp://www.flickr.com/photos/kabell/ Den 25/11/2008 kl. 23.10 skrev kavyvinson:Free Will,I'm, sitting on a sofa and I decide to have a banana. The image of the banana pops into my mind and I have a craving for one. I did not decide this, this urge came from within. As I go towards the banana I feel fat and I think that I have been eating too many bananas recently so I decide not to have one. I think I have made a decision but all that happened was that a stronger urge came over me – a desire to get slim. So I have made no decisions; I just acted on desires and impulses which came without my conscious control.Now imagine a drug addict, he has a craving for a fix, but he fights against it. He knows he will never be really happy if he keeps using the drug. That he has lost his wife, his job, etc. His craving for the drug is immense, but he has an even greater desire to be happy, have a lovely wife, a family, and a rewarding job. Every now and again the desire for the drug overwhelmed him – who cares about all that when you can feel something more amazing than God, even if it's only for a short while. He fights the desire and on this occasion he wins.Can't you see that he does have free will, although very limited? He is a human so he cannot choose to have the desires of a dog. His desires and cravings are human, typical and preset. But he fought with all his might and won. This was a combination of his ego and his unconscious. In my opinion the mistake that people make when they say we have no free will is to believe that the ego, our consciousness, is in the driving seat. The whole of our bodies make the decision. We are not free to choose our urges as such, but we can motivate ourselves in a direction that is best for us. We have conscious control. Those that say we don't have free will are only half right. Ultimately we do have a free spirit, and all animals do, but only within the framework of what we were born to be. Kavy

November 26, 2008

Thanks, makes sense to me.

I often think the whole free will idea is almost a bit like blaming.

If someone chose something then isn't it their fault if they suffer?

Of course in a way it is but I agree that lots of circumstances could

lead to that decision. If free will was an easy concept nobody would

have trouble giving up an addiction or loosing will. I don't think it

has much to do with free will.

I hope I haven't offended anyone who agrees with the free will idea.

Interesting though.

Birgit

>

> So where did the urge to not follow his original urge come from?

Did

> he decide to have that urge?

>

> If we motivate ourselves in some direction - where did the

idea/urge

> to motivate ourselves come from?

>

> Having an urge override another urge is no argument for free will

(or

> half free will). It's just an interesting battle inside our minds -

> that's my view at least. All urges, decisions, thoughts, emotions

are

> caused by things in our environment, memory, emotions which

creates

> new memories and emotions. From memories, from values, from

> experience, from random chemical changes in our head combined with

the

> environment springs what you may call life and decisions in the

> present moment.

>

> The flaw in free will thinking is that we see events isolated - as

> having a beginning and an end. " He pushed the button, and then the

> door opened. Therefore he chose to open the door. " But what made

him

> push the button? What made him open the door? What made him want

to

> open the door? And for any answer to that you can continue to go

back

> in time and keep asking that same kind of question. Ultimately

it's

> the big bang, God, or whereever you think it all started (I think

it

> didn't - because that's just another way of looking for a

beginning

> where someone had free will, another story.)

>

> We say we choose a value - but what makes us favor a value over

another?

> We say we choose to break a commitment - but what made us reach

that

> sum total of that decision?

>

> It's all causation. And we are just inside watching this reality

> unfold as a movie. We just happen to hear all the negotiations

that

> one part of our mind makes with itself. But we have no say in that

> conversation. When we realize that, it's not even us realizing it -

> it's our mind realizing it. And we can take neither credit or blame.

>

> An ACT related metaphor for that may be people riding roller

coasters.

> Some people are scared, and believe they have more control of the

> situation if they scream, get tense, close their eyes, command the

> roller coaster to stop etc (and actually they may believe it works

> because eventually - it will!). Other people know that when they

first

> are in the wagon, they can't do anything, there's no control, so

they

> may just as well enjoy the ride. They lean back and relax.

>

> People in here may think that they chose to get into ACT. But

where

> did you hear about it for the first time? Did you decide before

you

> knew about ACT, to find out about ACT? Of course not. It just

> happened. Why didn't you reject ACT? Probably because it resonated

> with something you heard about in the past, or because someone you

> trusted recommended it. So, did you at any point just decide to

have

> that former knowledge, or didn't it also just happen? When did you

> decide to trust that person? Did you decide to meet that person?

Did

> you decide to be born? Did you decide to have the value of

proactively

> improving your life? etc. etc.

>

> Free will exist in mental stories we create. Free will requires

that

> we only look at a very limited field in time. If the beginning of

the

> story is " He decided to push the button and he did so " , it seems

> logical - of course, that's a decision, it's free will. But if you

> digg deeper you see that that decision was made on 1000 of factors

> that all was output/input in a caused manner since that person was

> born. And even the event that he was born, even when he was

conceived

> is part of the reason why in that exact moment he opened the door.

>

> That's my view at least - I never decided to write this mail, it

just

> happened (some people would say I'm procrastinating on my essay -

I

> say procrastination is a nasty concept that removes us from the

> ultimate truth that stuff just happens

>

> - Jeppe

>

> PS. I believe that free will is the most stress-inducing belief

ever.

> You know, people that feel bad usually does so in two layers: 1)

They

> feel bad. 2) They feel bad about feeling bad.

>

> If they realized that they never decided to feel bad #1, they

wouldn't

> feel bad #2. And then #1 would probably also solve itself much

faster.

> I think this is what ACT is really about: Just watching reality,

> seeing that it's all just happening.

>

> And when we realize that it's not US that have to accept things -

but

> actually our brain that has to accept stuff, and that that process

is

> completely out of our control, then we're really in a state of

bliss

> (even though our mind may be telling itself how stupid it is, but -

> you know. The mind will grow up one day. Just stop listening.

You're

> safe inside yourself. Just lean back and enjoy the ride. (Which is -

> of course - much easier said than done)

>

> --

> Jeppe Kabell

> kabell@...

>

> UK: +44 7549947410

> DK: +45 31102211

>

> Usher Halls, flat 176

> The Burroughs

> Hendon

> London NW4 4HE

>

> http://www.linkedin.com/in/kabell

> http://thecopenhagenproject.org

> http://delicious.com/kabell/?setcount=100

> http://twitter.com/kabell

> http://www.flickr.com/photos/kabell/

>

> Den 25/11/2008 kl. 23.10 skrev kavyvinson:

>

> > Free Will,

> >

> > I'm, sitting on a sofa and I decide to have a banana. The image of

> > the banana pops into my mind and I have a craving for one. I did

not

> > decide this, this urge came from within. As I go towards the

banana I

> > feel fat and I think that I have been eating too many bananas

> > recently so I decide not to have one. I think I have made a

decision

> > but all that happened was that a stronger urge came over me – a

> > desire to get slim. So I have made no decisions; I just acted on

> > desires and impulses which came without my conscious control.

> >

> > Now imagine a drug addict, he has a craving for a fix, but he

fights

> > against it. He knows he will never be really happy if he keeps

using

> > the drug. That he has lost his wife, his job, etc. His craving for

> > the drug is immense, but he has an even greater desire to be

happy,

> > have a lovely wife, a family, and a rewarding job. Every now and

> > again the desire for the drug overwhelmed him – who cares about

all

> > that when you can feel something more amazing than God, even if

it's

> > only for a short while. He fights the desire and on this occasion

he

> > wins.

> >

> > Can't you see that he does have free will, although very limited?

He

> > is a human so he cannot choose to have the desires of a dog. His

> > desires and cravings are human, typical and preset. But he fought

> > with all his might and won. This was a combination of his ego and

his

> > unconscious. In my opinion the mistake that people make when they

say

> > we have no free will is to believe that the ego, our

consciousness,

> > is in the driving seat. The whole of our bodies make the

decision. We

> > are not free to choose our urges as such, but we can motivate

> > ourselves in a direction that is best for us. We have conscious

> > control.

> >

> > Those that say we don't have free will are only half right.

> > Ultimately we do have a free spirit, and all animals do, but only

> > within the framework of what we were born to be.

> >

> > Kavy

> >

>

November 26, 2008

Yeah, free will creates the illusions of guilt, responsibility and credit.It's also closely related to fear. Both in the sense that I might choose wrong, but also the grand illusion that I have any kind of influence/control on what happens in the future. Which I haven't at all.And I also love your argument about giving up addictions and loosing will.If free will existed, the sentence "I should" would probably not.Den 27/11/2008 kl. 04.29 skrev Birgit:Thanks, makes sense to me.I often think the whole free will idea is almost a bit like blaming. If someone chose something then isn't it their fault if they suffer? Of course in a way it is but I agree that lots of circumstances could lead to that decision. If free will was an easy concept nobody would have trouble giving up an addiction or loosing will. I don't think it has much to do with free will.I hope I haven't offended anyone who agrees with the free will idea.Interesting though.Birgit>> So where did the urge to not follow his original urge come from? Did > he decide to have that urge?> > If we motivate ourselves in some direction - where did the idea/urge > to motivate ourselves come from?> > Having an urge override another urge is no argument for free will (or > half free will). It's just an interesting battle inside our minds -> that's my view at least. All urges, decisions, thoughts, emotions are > caused by things in our environment, memory, emotions which creates > new memories and emotions. From memories, from values, from > experience, from random chemical changes in our head combined with the > environment springs what you may call life and decisions in the > present moment.> > The flaw in free will thinking is that we see events isolated - as > having a beginning and an end. "He pushed the button, and then the > door opened. Therefore he chose to open the door." But what made him > push the button? What made him open the door? What made him want to > open the door? And for any answer to that you can continue to go back > in time and keep asking that same kind of question. Ultimately it's > the big bang, God, or whereever you think it all started (I think it > didn't - because that's just another way of looking for a beginning > where someone had free will, another story.)> > We say we choose a value - but what makes us favor a value over another?> We say we choose to break a commitment - but what made us reach that > sum total of that decision?> > It's all causation. And we are just inside watching this reality > unfold as a movie. We just happen to hear all the negotiations that > one part of our mind makes with itself. But we have no say in that > conversation. When we realize that, it's not even us realizing it -> it's our mind realizing it. And we can take neither credit or blame.> > An ACT related metaphor for that may be people riding roller coasters. > Some people are scared, and believe they have more control of the > situation if they scream, get tense, close their eyes, command the > roller coaster to stop etc (and actually they may believe it works > because eventually - it will!). Other people know that when they first > are in the wagon, they can't do anything, there's no control, so they > may just as well enjoy the ride. They lean back and relax.> > > > People in here may think that they chose to get into ACT. But where > did you hear about it for the first time? Did you decide before you > knew about ACT, to find out about ACT? Of course not. It just > happened. Why didn't you reject ACT? Probably because it resonated > with something you heard about in the past, or because someone you > trusted recommended it. So, did you at any point just decide to have > that former knowledge, or didn't it also just happen? When did you > decide to trust that person? Did you decide to meet that person? Did > you decide to be born? Did you decide to have the value of proactively > improving your life? etc. etc.> > Free will exist in mental stories we create. Free will requires that > we only look at a very limited field in time. If the beginning of the > story is "He decided to push the button and he did so", it seems > logical - of course, that's a decision, it's free will. But if you > digg deeper you see that that decision was made on 1000 of factors > that all was output/input in a caused manner since that person was > born. And even the event that he was born, even when he was conceived > is part of the reason why in that exact moment he opened the door.> > That's my view at least - I never decided to write this mail, it just > happened (some people would say I'm procrastinating on my essay - I > say procrastination is a nasty concept that removes us from the > ultimate truth that stuff just happens > > > - Jeppe> > > PS. I believe that free will is the most stress-inducing belief ever. > You know, people that feel bad usually does so in two layers: 1) They > feel bad. 2) They feel bad about feeling bad.> > If they realized that they never decided to feel bad #1, they wouldn't > feel bad #2. And then #1 would probably also solve itself much faster. > I think this is what ACT is really about: Just watching reality, > seeing that it's all just happening.> > And when we realize that it's not US that have to accept things - but > actually our brain that has to accept stuff, and that that process is > completely out of our control, then we're really in a state of bliss > (even though our mind may be telling itself how stupid it is, but -> you know. The mind will grow up one day. Just stop listening. You're > safe inside yourself. Just lean back and enjoy the ride. (Which is -> of course - much easier said than done)> > > -- > Jeppe Kabell> kabell@...> > UK: +44 7549947410> DK: +45 31102211> > Usher Halls, flat 176> The Burroughs> Hendon> London NW4 4HE> > http://www.linkedin.com/in/kabell> http://thecopenhagenproject.org> http://delicious.com/kabell/?setcount=100> http://twitter.com/kabell> http://www.flickr.com/photos/kabell/> > Den 25/11/2008 kl. 23.10 skrev kavyvinson:> > > Free Will,> >> > I'm, sitting on a sofa and I decide to have a banana. The image of> > the banana pops into my mind and I have a craving for one. I did not> > decide this, this urge came from within. As I go towards the banana I> > feel fat and I think that I have been eating too many bananas> > recently so I decide not to have one. I think I have made a decision> > but all that happened was that a stronger urge came over me – a> > desire to get slim. So I have made no decisions; I just acted on> > desires and impulses which came without my conscious control.> >> > Now imagine a drug addict, he has a craving for a fix, but he fights> > against it. He knows he will never be really happy if he keeps using> > the drug. That he has lost his wife, his job, etc. His craving for> > the drug is immense, but he has an even greater desire to be happy,> > have a lovely wife, a family, and a rewarding job. Every now and> > again the desire for the drug overwhelmed him – who cares about all> > that when you can feel something more amazing than God, even if it's> > only for a short while. He fights the desire and on this occasion he> > wins.> >> > Can't you see that he does have free will, although very limited? He> > is a human so he cannot choose to have the desires of a dog. His> > desires and cravings are human, typical and preset. But he fought> > with all his might and won. This was a combination of his ego and his> > unconscious. In my opinion the mistake that people make when they say> > we have no free will is to believe that the ego, our consciousness,> > is in the driving seat. The whole of our bodies make the decision. We> > are not free to choose our urges as such, but we can motivate> > ourselves in a direction that is best for us. We have conscious> > control.> >> > Those that say we don't have free will are only half right.> > Ultimately we do have a free spirit, and all animals do, but only> > within the framework of what we were born to be.> >> > Kavy> >> >> >>

November 26, 2008

This is an interesting discussion.

I thought the ACT perspective was more that we may not know why we make certain decisions, that trying to determine causes or reasons is fruitless as there are so many factors which go into making a decision, but that, in the main, we still choose to be and indeed society deems us to be responsible for our own actions, because the alternative is untenable (the buck stops nowhere). For example, I understand that my ex-bf's behaviors probably resulted from his personality, where he was currently in his life and career, from his childhood, from habits he developed as a result of all of these things, perhaps genetically, perhaps also culturally from his birth country, plus his brain chemistry, plus his communication style, plus our culture's focus on the quick fix, plus the internet allowing people to communicate anonymously, plus other peoples' actions, etc., etc., etc. It's not very helpful for me to think too much about why, or to

apportion blame, but he is ultimately responsible for his actions because we really can't make anyone else so and the actions he committed were incontrovertibly committed by him, and because at least in theory, he did not have to commit them. It's hard for me to answer that, "If you had it all to do over again, would you..." because, if all the other circumstances were the same, it seems doubtful one would behave differently--but there is always random chance!

I always felt that guilt is a personal feeling about not having been more altruistic (thinking of others in making our decisions, in acting) and people vary to the extent they feel guilty at all; guilt also serves a societal purpose in prompting future altruism. Responsibility and credit certainly aim at attempting to explain why things occurred, and are imperfect, and certainly don't tell the whole story, but allow society to attempt to justly reward and punish.

Doesn't ACT define responsibility, differently than in the classic sense, as the ability or obligation to respond/take action in certain situations?

This reminds me of the new book out by Malcolm Gladwell about successful people, and about earlier research I had read, which indicates that the idea of being a "self-made" man or woman is truly a myth. Research indicates that successful people were often luckyier than other equally talented people in timing, in the people they knew, in getting more press/promotion, etc. No one has, however, suggested we reduce the rewards to these successful people based on their actual contribution to their own success--it would be impossible.

I would love to hear others' views on this topic.

Best,

Robin

Subject: Re: Re: Free WillTo: ACT_for_the_Public Date: Wednesday, November 26, 2008, 8:22 PM

Yeah, free will creates the illusions of guilt, responsibility and credit.

It's also closely related to fear. Both in the sense that I might choose wrong, but also the grand illusion that I have any kind of influence/control on what happens in the future. Which I haven't at all.

And I also love your argument about giving up addictions and loosing will.

If free will existed, the sentence "I should" would probably not.

Den 27/11/2008 kl. 04.29 skrev Birgit:

Thanks, makes sense to me.I often think the whole free will idea is almost a bit like blaming. If someone chose something then isn't it their fault if they suffer? Of course in a way it is but I agree that lots of circumstances could lead to that decision. If free will was an easy concept nobody would have trouble giving up an addiction or loosing will. I don't think it has much to do with free will.I hope I haven't offended anyone who agrees with the free will idea.Interesting though.Birgit>> So where did the urge to not follow his original urge come from? Did > he decide to have that urge?> > If we motivate ourselves in some direction - where did the idea/urge > to motivate ourselves come from?> > Having an urge override another urge is no argument for free will (or > half free will). It's just an interesting battle inside our minds -> that's my view at least. All urges, decisions, thoughts, emotions are > caused by things in our environment, memory, emotions which creates > new memories and emotions. From memories, from values, from > experience, from random chemical changes in our head combined with the > environment springs what you may call life and decisions in the > present moment.> > The flaw in free will thinking is that we see events isolated - as > having a beginning and an end. "He pushed the button, and then the > door opened. Therefore he chose to open the door." But what made him > push the button? What made him open the door? What made him want to > open the door? And for any answer to that you can continue to go back > in time and keep asking that same kind of question. Ultimately it's > the big bang, God, or whereever you think it all started (I think it > didn't - because that's just another way of

looking for a beginning > where someone had free will, another story.)> > We say we choose a value - but what makes us favor a value over another?> We say we choose to break a commitment - but what made us reach that > sum total of that decision?> > It's all causation. And we are just inside watching this reality > unfold as a movie. We just happen to hear all the negotiations that > one part of our mind makes with itself.

But we have no say in that > conversation. When we realize that, it's not even us realizing it -> it's our mind realizing it. And we can take neither credit or blame.> > An ACT related metaphor for that may be people riding roller coasters. > Some people are scared, and believe they have more control of the > situation if they scream, get tense, close their eyes, command the > roller coaster to stop etc (and actually they may believe it works > because eventually - it will!). Other people know that when they first > are in the wagon, they can't do anything, there's no control, so they > may just as well enjoy the ride. They lean back and relax.> > > > People in here may think that they chose to get into ACT. But where > did you hear about it for the first time? Did you decide before you > knew about ACT, to find out about ACT? Of course not. It just > happened. Why didn't you reject ACT? Probably

because it resonated > with something you heard about in the past, or because someone you > trusted recommended it. So, did you at any point just decide to have > that former knowledge, or didn't it also just happen? When did you > decide to trust that person? Did you decide to meet that person? Did > you decide to be born? Did you decide to have the value of proactively > improving your life? etc. etc.> > Free will exist in mental

stories we create. Free will requires that > we only look at a very limited field in time. If the beginning of the > story is "He decided to push the button and he did so", it seems > logical - of course, that's a decision, it's free will. But if you > digg deeper you see that that decision was made on 1000 of factors > that all was output/input in a caused manner since that person was > born. And even the event that he was born, even when he was conceived > is part of the reason why in that exact moment he opened the door.> > That's my view at least - I never decided to write this mail, it just > happened (some people would say I'm procrastinating on my essay - I > say procrastination is a nasty concept that removes us from the > ultimate truth that stuff just happens > > > - Jeppe> > > PS. I believe that free will is

the most stress-inducing belief ever. > You know, people that feel bad usually does so in two layers: 1) They > feel bad. 2) They feel bad about feeling bad.> > If they realized that they never decided to feel bad #1, they wouldn't > feel bad #2. And then #1 would probably also solve itself much faster. > I think this is what ACT is really about: Just watching reality, > seeing that it's all just happening.> > And when we realize that it's not US that have to accept things - but > actually our brain that has to accept stuff, and that that process is > completely out of our control, then we're really in a state of bliss > (even though our mind may be telling itself how stupid it is, but -> you know. The mind will grow up one day. Just stop listening. You're > safe inside yourself. Just lean back and enjoy the ride. (Which is -> of course - much easier said than done)> > > -- > Jeppe Kabell> kabell@...> > UK: +44 7549947410> DK: +45 31102211> > Usher Halls, flat 176> The Burroughs> Hendon> London NW4 4HE> > http://www.linkedin .com/in/kabell> http://thecopenhage nproject. org> http://delicious. com/kabell/ ?setcount= 100> http://twitter. com/kabell> http://www.flickr. com/photos/ kabell/> > Den 25/11/2008 kl. 23.10 skrev kavyvinson:> > > Free Will,> >> > I'm, sitting on a sofa and I decide to have a banana. The image of> > the banana pops into my mind and I have a craving for one. I did not> > decide this, this urge came from within. As I go towards the banana I> > feel fat and I think that I

have been eating too many bananas> > recently so I decide not to have one. I think I have made a decision> > but all that happened was that a stronger urge came over me – a> > desire to get slim. So I have made no decisions; I just acted on> > desires and impulses which came without my conscious control.> >> > Now imagine a drug addict, he has a craving for a fix, but he fights> > against it. He knows he will never be really happy if he keeps using> > the drug. That he has lost his wife, his job, etc. His craving for> > the drug is immense, but he has an even greater desire to be happy,> > have a lovely wife, a family, and a rewarding job. Every now

and> > again the desire for the drug overwhelmed him – who cares about all> > that when you can feel something more amazing than God, even if it's> > only for a short while. He fights the desire and on this occasion he> > wins.> >> > Can't you see that he does have free will, although very limited? He> > is a human so he cannot choose to have the desires of a dog. His> > desires and cravings are human, typical and preset. But he fought> > with all his might and won. This was a combination of his ego and his> > unconscious. In my opinion the mistake that people make when they say> > we have no free will is to believe that the ego, our consciousness,> > is in the driving seat. The whole of our bodies make the decision. We> > are not free to choose our urges as such, but we can motivate> > ourselves in a direction that is best for us. We have conscious> > control.> >> > Those that say we don't have free will are only half right.> > Ultimately we do have a free spirit, and all animals do, but only> > within the framework of what we were born to be.> >> > Kavy> >> >> >>

November 26, 2008

Jeppe,

Have you checked out the scientific naturalism website at

http://www.naturalism.org? It's run by Tom , and it contains a

lot of very good articles about the implausibility of contra-causal

free will (ie, being able to make decisions uncaused by any prior

caused, and what the consequences are for justice and society.

I'm not sure what all this has to do with ACT, but since I've seen

very clearly that I don't have free will, I've been a lot happier.

Given my genetic make and the circumstances I found myself in when I

did whatever I did, I couldn't have done otherwise than I did.

However, not having free will isn't a stay-out-of-jail-free card. I'm

still responsible for what I do and say, since I'm the cause of

whatever effects following my actions.

Also, if you dig around the site, you'll find a couple of interesting

articles about addiction.

Cheers,

Stan

Melbourne, Australia

>

> So where did the urge to not follow his original urge come from?

Did

> he decide to have that urge?

>

> If we motivate ourselves in some direction - where did the

idea/urge

> to motivate ourselves come from?

>

> Having an urge override another urge is no argument for free will

(or

> half free will). It's just an interesting battle inside our minds -

> that's my view at least. All urges, decisions, thoughts, emotions

are

> caused by things in our environment, memory, emotions which

creates

> new memories and emotions. From memories, from values, from

> experience, from random chemical changes in our head combined with

the

> environment springs what you may call life and decisions in the

> present moment.

>

> The flaw in free will thinking is that we see events isolated - as

> having a beginning and an end. " He pushed the button, and then the

> door opened. Therefore he chose to open the door. " But what made

him

> push the button? What made him open the door? What made him want

to

> open the door? And for any answer to that you can continue to go

back

> in time and keep asking that same kind of question. Ultimately

it's

> the big bang, God, or whereever you think it all started (I think

it

> didn't - because that's just another way of looking for a

beginning

> where someone had free will, another story.)

>

> We say we choose a value - but what makes us favor a value over

another?

> We say we choose to break a commitment - but what made us reach

that

> sum total of that decision?

>

> It's all causation. And we are just inside watching this reality

> unfold as a movie. We just happen to hear all the negotiations

that

> one part of our mind makes with itself. But we have no say in that

> conversation. When we realize that, it's not even us realizing it -

> it's our mind realizing it. And we can take neither credit or blame.

>

> An ACT related metaphor for that may be people riding roller

coasters.

> Some people are scared, and believe they have more control of the

> situation if they scream, get tense, close their eyes, command the

> roller coaster to stop etc (and actually they may believe it works

> because eventually - it will!). Other people know that when they

first

> are in the wagon, they can't do anything, there's no control, so

they

> may just as well enjoy the ride. They lean back and relax.

>

> People in here may think that they chose to get into ACT. But

where

> did you hear about it for the first time? Did you decide before

you

> knew about ACT, to find out about ACT? Of course not. It just

> happened. Why didn't you reject ACT? Probably because it resonated

> with something you heard about in the past, or because someone you

> trusted recommended it. So, did you at any point just decide to

have

> that former knowledge, or didn't it also just happen? When did you

> decide to trust that person? Did you decide to meet that person?

Did

> you decide to be born? Did you decide to have the value of

proactively

> improving your life? etc. etc.

>

> Free will exist in mental stories we create. Free will requires

that

> we only look at a very limited field in time. If the beginning of

the

> story is " He decided to push the button and he did so " , it seems

> logical - of course, that's a decision, it's free will. But if you

> digg deeper you see that that decision was made on 1000 of factors

> that all was output/input in a caused manner since that person was

> born. And even the event that he was born, even when he was

conceived

> is part of the reason why in that exact moment he opened the door.

>

> That's my view at least - I never decided to write this mail, it

just

> happened (some people would say I'm procrastinating on my essay -

I

> say procrastination is a nasty concept that removes us from the

> ultimate truth that stuff just happens

>

> - Jeppe

>

> PS. I believe that free will is the most stress-inducing belief

ever.

> You know, people that feel bad usually does so in two layers: 1)

They

> feel bad. 2) They feel bad about feeling bad.

>

> If they realized that they never decided to feel bad #1, they

wouldn't

> feel bad #2. And then #1 would probably also solve itself much

faster.

> I think this is what ACT is really about: Just watching reality,

> seeing that it's all just happening.

>

> And when we realize that it's not US that have to accept things -

but

> actually our brain that has to accept stuff, and that that process

is

> completely out of our control, then we're really in a state of

bliss

> (even though our mind may be telling itself how stupid it is, but -

> you know. The mind will grow up one day. Just stop listening.

You're

> safe inside yourself. Just lean back and enjoy the ride. (Which is -

> of course - much easier said than done)

>

> --

> Jeppe Kabell

> kabell@...

>

> UK: +44 7549947410

> DK: +45 31102211

>

> Usher Halls, flat 176

> The Burroughs

> Hendon

> London NW4 4HE

>

> http://www.linkedin.com/in/kabell

> http://thecopenhagenproject.org

> http://delicious.com/kabell/?setcount=100

> http://twitter.com/kabell

> http://www.flickr.com/photos/kabell/

>

> Den 25/11/2008 kl. 23.10 skrev kavyvinson:

>

> > Free Will,

> >

> > I'm, sitting on a sofa and I decide to have a banana. The image of

> > the banana pops into my mind and I have a craving for one. I did

not

> > decide this, this urge came from within. As I go towards the

banana I

> > feel fat and I think that I have been eating too many bananas

> > recently so I decide not to have one. I think I have made a

decision

> > but all that happened was that a stronger urge came over me – a

> > desire to get slim. So I have made no decisions; I just acted on

> > desires and impulses which came without my conscious control.

> >

> > Now imagine a drug addict, he has a craving for a fix, but he

fights

> > against it. He knows he will never be really happy if he keeps

using

> > the drug. That he has lost his wife, his job, etc. His craving for

> > the drug is immense, but he has an even greater desire to be

happy,

> > have a lovely wife, a family, and a rewarding job. Every now and

> > again the desire for the drug overwhelmed him – who cares about

all

> > that when you can feel something more amazing than God, even if

it's

> > only for a short while. He fights the desire and on this occasion

he

> > wins.

> >

> > Can't you see that he does have free will, although very limited?

He

> > is a human so he cannot choose to have the desires of a dog. His

> > desires and cravings are human, typical and preset. But he fought

> > with all his might and won. This was a combination of his ego and

his

> > unconscious. In my opinion the mistake that people make when they

say

> > we have no free will is to believe that the ego, our

consciousness,

> > is in the driving seat. The whole of our bodies make the

decision. We

> > are not free to choose our urges as such, but we can motivate

> > ourselves in a direction that is best for us. We have conscious

> > control.

> >

> > Those that say we don't have free will are only half right.

> > Ultimately we do have a free spirit, and all animals do, but only

> > within the framework of what we were born to be.

> >

> > Kavy

> >

>

November 26, 2008

Hi Stan,

I agree with you. We still need to take responsibility for our own

actions.

I think that's something where the value principle comes in. If in

any given circumstance I make the best decision I possibly can, in

line with my values, then I have used my free will but still don't

have control of the outcome.

complicated subject

> >

> > So where did the urge to not follow his original urge come from?

> Did

> > he decide to have that urge?

> >

> > If we motivate ourselves in some direction - where did the

> idea/urge

> > to motivate ourselves come from?

> >

> > Having an urge override another urge is no argument for free will

> (or

> > half free will). It's just an interesting battle inside our

minds -

>

> > that's my view at least. All urges, decisions, thoughts, emotions

> are

> > caused by things in our environment, memory, emotions which

> creates

> > new memories and emotions. From memories, from values, from

> > experience, from random chemical changes in our head combined

with

> the

> > environment springs what you may call life and decisions in the

> > present moment.

> >

> > The flaw in free will thinking is that we see events isolated -

as

> > having a beginning and an end. " He pushed the button, and then

the

> > door opened. Therefore he chose to open the door. " But what made

> him

> > push the button? What made him open the door? What made him want

> to

> > open the door? And for any answer to that you can continue to go

> back

> > in time and keep asking that same kind of question. Ultimately

> it's

> > the big bang, God, or whereever you think it all started (I think

> it

> > didn't - because that's just another way of looking for a

> beginning

> > where someone had free will, another story.)

> >

> > We say we choose a value - but what makes us favor a value over

> another?

> > We say we choose to break a commitment - but what made us reach

> that

> > sum total of that decision?

> >

> > It's all causation. And we are just inside watching this reality

> > unfold as a movie. We just happen to hear all the negotiations

> that

> > one part of our mind makes with itself. But we have no say in

that

> > conversation. When we realize that, it's not even us realizing

it -

>

> > it's our mind realizing it. And we can take neither credit or

blame.

> >

> > An ACT related metaphor for that may be people riding roller

> coasters.

> > Some people are scared, and believe they have more control of

the

> > situation if they scream, get tense, close their eyes, command

the

> > roller coaster to stop etc (and actually they may believe it

works

> > because eventually - it will!). Other people know that when they

> first

> > are in the wagon, they can't do anything, there's no control, so

> they

> > may just as well enjoy the ride. They lean back and relax.

> >

> > People in here may think that they chose to get into ACT. But

> where

> > did you hear about it for the first time? Did you decide before

> you

> > knew about ACT, to find out about ACT? Of course not. It just

> > happened. Why didn't you reject ACT? Probably because it

resonated

> > with something you heard about in the past, or because someone

you

> > trusted recommended it. So, did you at any point just decide to

> have

> > that former knowledge, or didn't it also just happen? When did

you

> > decide to trust that person? Did you decide to meet that person?

> Did

> > you decide to be born? Did you decide to have the value of

> proactively

> > improving your life? etc. etc.

> >

> > Free will exist in mental stories we create. Free will requires

> that

> > we only look at a very limited field in time. If the beginning of

> the

> > story is " He decided to push the button and he did so " , it seems

> > logical - of course, that's a decision, it's free will. But if

you

> > digg deeper you see that that decision was made on 1000 of

factors

> > that all was output/input in a caused manner since that person

was

> > born. And even the event that he was born, even when he was

> conceived

> > is part of the reason why in that exact moment he opened the door.

> >

> > That's my view at least - I never decided to write this mail, it

> just

> > happened (some people would say I'm procrastinating on my essay -

> I

> > say procrastination is a nasty concept that removes us from the

> > ultimate truth that stuff just happens

> >

> > - Jeppe

> >

> > PS. I believe that free will is the most stress-inducing belief

> ever.

> > You know, people that feel bad usually does so in two layers: 1)

> They

> > feel bad. 2) They feel bad about feeling bad.

> >

> > If they realized that they never decided to feel bad #1, they

> wouldn't

> > feel bad #2. And then #1 would probably also solve itself much

> faster.

> > I think this is what ACT is really about: Just watching reality,

> > seeing that it's all just happening.

> >

> > And when we realize that it's not US that have to accept things -

> but

> > actually our brain that has to accept stuff, and that that

process

> is

> > completely out of our control, then we're really in a state of

> bliss

> > (even though our mind may be telling itself how stupid it is,

but -

>

> > you know. The mind will grow up one day. Just stop listening.

> You're

> > safe inside yourself. Just lean back and enjoy the ride. (Which

is -

>

> > of course - much easier said than done)

> >

> > --

> > Jeppe Kabell

> > kabell@

> >

> > UK: +44 7549947410

> > DK: +45 31102211

> >

> > Usher Halls, flat 176

> > The Burroughs

> > Hendon

> > London NW4 4HE

> >

> > http://www.linkedin.com/in/kabell

> > http://thecopenhagenproject.org

> > http://delicious.com/kabell/?setcount=100

> > http://twitter.com/kabell

> > http://www.flickr.com/photos/kabell/

> >

> > Den 25/11/2008 kl. 23.10 skrev kavyvinson:

> >

> > > Free Will,

> > >

> > > I'm, sitting on a sofa and I decide to have a banana. The image

of

> > > the banana pops into my mind and I have a craving for one. I

did

> not

> > > decide this, this urge came from within. As I go towards the

> banana I

> > > feel fat and I think that I have been eating too many bananas

> > > recently so I decide not to have one. I think I have made a

> decision

> > > but all that happened was that a stronger urge came over me – a

> > > desire to get slim. So I have made no decisions; I just acted on

> > > desires and impulses which came without my conscious control.

> > >

> > > Now imagine a drug addict, he has a craving for a fix, but he

> fights

> > > against it. He knows he will never be really happy if he keeps

> using

> > > the drug. That he has lost his wife, his job, etc. His craving

for

> > > the drug is immense, but he has an even greater desire to be

> happy,

> > > have a lovely wife, a family, and a rewarding job. Every now and

> > > again the desire for the drug overwhelmed him – who cares about

> all

> > > that when you can feel something more amazing than God, even if

> it's

> > > only for a short while. He fights the desire and on this

occasion

> he

> > > wins.

> > >

> > > Can't you see that he does have free will, although very

limited?

> He

> > > is a human so he cannot choose to have the desires of a dog. His

> > > desires and cravings are human, typical and preset. But he

fought

> > > with all his might and won. This was a combination of his ego

and

> his

> > > unconscious. In my opinion the mistake that people make when

they

> say

> > > we have no free will is to believe that the ego, our

> consciousness,

> > > is in the driving seat. The whole of our bodies make the

> decision. We

> > > are not free to choose our urges as such, but we can motivate

> > > ourselves in a direction that is best for us. We have conscious

> > > control.

> > >

> > > Those that say we don't have free will are only half right.

> > > Ultimately we do have a free spirit, and all animals do, but

only

> > > within the framework of what we were born to be.

> > >

> > > Kavy

> > >

> >

>

November 26, 2008

Hi Stan, Yes I'm aware of the site and a member of the list. I still don't think the last word has been said on society, free will, responsibility etc.To me this is more a question of being able to work from multiple perspectives at the same time - and also to look at it from different psychological perspectives.Ultimately I find it hard to deny, that if there's no free will, then there's really no responsibility too. So I guess when you say "resbonsible" you mean, that if I do a criminal act I'm a "problem" (unwillingly) in the system, and therefore I have to be "caused" into changing behaviour - e.g. by being put into jail? This is not done to "punish" me in the sense of getting "revenge" or "justice", but simply to change my behaviour in the future and for MY sake ("Do you know how much it hurts to hit people?" - Byron ). (That's the only logical reason I see doing it if we agree there's no free will).I disagree on what you write - that "I'm the cause of whatever effects following my actions".I really don't think you are. That's just a story, starting in time from the point where you did the action. In reality that action was caused by anything happening in the whole universe up to that point in time, so we might just as well say that your grandfather is the cause of whatever effects following your actions Or blame it on being in the world with so many inputs hitting us each second. But ultimately you and everything you do is just as much a an effect as is the effect of your actions.Back on track!I understand how many people can't just accept the idea that we don't have free will, that everything is just happening outside of it. I have found a very usefull perspective to live by, which sort of combines the two things. This is especially usefull in relation to guilt.I suggest people that they adobt an attitude of thinking "Whatever happened in the PAST is not my responsibility. It wasn't my fault. I'm not guilty. I couldn't have acted any other way with the same thoughts and circumstances. Not possible!" And even if you're in prinson this is true - we're talking about psychological guilt here, not guilt according to law. Of course you should on a logical, detached level learn from your mistakes, update your values, assure that you start working in another directions than your wrongdoings. But don't feel guilty for too long. It's unproductive. So looking back = no free will = not guilty = not your fault. Really!Looking forward, though, it can be very usefull to have an attitude of thinking "The FUTURE is my responsibility. I have choices to make. I will go in a different direction. I will choose to change path, and I will find out how to do it." Having an attitude of free will while looking forward is empowering to most people. It can also be the cause of stress though, so watch out. But to recap: Looking towards the future = free will = responsible = empowering.How it relates to ACT? Well, realizing that thoughts just are thoughts, isn't that exactly the whole point of not having free will? That thoughts just pop up? I see the whole "free will is not really true"-realization as extremely beneficial for the A-part of ACT.It also relates a lot to the mindfullness part of ACT. If I'm not my thoughts, and if thoughts just happens - then who am I? The observing self? The whole body? What's the consequence of me thinking when I make decisions - especially if I don't choose my own thoughts? And again: One thing is what we scientifically define as "I", but what do we refer to when we talk about "I", "me" etc? And then we start approaching a spiritual level, which ACT really isn't connected to - but then on the other hand you could also say, that ACT is all about spirituality.Den 27/11/2008 kl. 06.12 skrev Stan:Jeppe,Have you checked out the scientific naturalism website at http://www.naturalism.org? It's run by Tom , and it contains a lot of very good articles about the implausibility of contra-causal free will (ie, being able to make decisions uncaused by any prior caused, and what the consequences are for justice and society.I'm not sure what all this has to do with ACT, but since I've seen very clearly that I don't have free will, I've been a lot happier. Given my genetic make and the circumstances I found myself in when I did whatever I did, I couldn't have done otherwise than I did.However, not having free will isn't a stay-out-of-jail-free card. I'm still responsible for what I do and say, since I'm the cause of whatever effects following my actions.Also, if you dig around the site, you'll find a couple of interesting articles about addiction.Cheers,StanMelbourne, Australia>> So where did the urge to not follow his original urge come from? Did > he decide to have that urge?> > If we motivate ourselves in some direction - where did the idea/urge > to motivate ourselves come from?> > Having an urge override another urge is no argument for free will (or > half free will). It's just an interesting battle inside our minds -> that's my view at least. All urges, decisions, thoughts, emotions are > caused by things in our environment, memory, emotions which creates > new memories and emotions. From memories, from values, from > experience, from random chemical changes in our head combined with the > environment springs what you may call life and decisions in the > present moment.> > The flaw in free will thinking is that we see events isolated - as > having a beginning and an end. "He pushed the button, and then the > door opened. Therefore he chose to open the door." But what made him > push the button? What made him open the door? What made him want to > open the door? And for any answer to that you can continue to go back > in time and keep asking that same kind of question. Ultimately it's > the big bang, God, or whereever you think it all started (I think it > didn't - because that's just another way of looking for a beginning > where someone had free will, another story.)> > We say we choose a value - but what makes us favor a value over another?> We say we choose to break a commitment - but what made us reach that > sum total of that decision?> > It's all causation. And we are just inside watching this reality > unfold as a movie. We just happen to hear all the negotiations that > one part of our mind makes with itself. But we have no say in that > conversation. When we realize that, it's not even us realizing it -> it's our mind realizing it. And we can take neither credit or blame.> > An ACT related metaphor for that may be people riding roller coasters. > Some people are scared, and believe they have more control of the > situation if they scream, get tense, close their eyes, command the > roller coaster to stop etc (and actually they may believe it works > because eventually - it will!). Other people know that when they first > are in the wagon, they can't do anything, there's no control, so they > may just as well enjoy the ride. They lean back and relax.> > > > People in here may think that they chose to get into ACT. But where > did you hear about it for the first time? Did you decide before you > knew about ACT, to find out about ACT? Of course not. It just > happened. Why didn't you reject ACT? Probably because it resonated > with something you heard about in the past, or because someone you > trusted recommended it. So, did you at any point just decide to have > that former knowledge, or didn't it also just happen? When did you > decide to trust that person? Did you decide to meet that person? Did > you decide to be born? Did you decide to have the value of proactively > improving your life? etc. etc.> > Free will exist in mental stories we create. Free will requires that > we only look at a very limited field in time. If the beginning of the > story is "He decided to push the button and he did so", it seems > logical - of course, that's a decision, it's free will. But if you > digg deeper you see that that decision was made on 1000 of factors > that all was output/input in a caused manner since that person was > born. And even the event that he was born, even when he was conceived > is part of the reason why in that exact moment he opened the door.> > That's my view at least - I never decided to write this mail, it just > happened (some people would say I'm procrastinating on my essay - I > say procrastination is a nasty concept that removes us from the > ultimate truth that stuff just happens > > > - Jeppe> > > PS. I believe that free will is the most stress-inducing belief ever. > You know, people that feel bad usually does so in two layers: 1) They > feel bad. 2) They feel bad about feeling bad.> > If they realized that they never decided to feel bad #1, they wouldn't > feel bad #2. And then #1 would probably also solve itself much faster. > I think this is what ACT is really about: Just watching reality, > seeing that it's all just happening.> > And when we realize that it's not US that have to accept things - but > actually our brain that has to accept stuff, and that that process is > completely out of our control, then we're really in a state of bliss > (even though our mind may be telling itself how stupid it is, but -> you know. The mind will grow up one day. Just stop listening. You're > safe inside yourself. Just lean back and enjoy the ride. (Which is -> of course - much easier said than done)> > > -- > Jeppe Kabell> kabell@...> > UK: +44 7549947410> DK: +45 31102211> > Usher Halls, flat 176> The Burroughs> Hendon> London NW4 4HE> > http://www.linkedin.com/in/kabell> http://thecopenhagenproject.org> http://delicious.com/kabell/?setcount=100> http://twitter.com/kabell> http://www.flickr.com/photos/kabell/> > Den 25/11/2008 kl. 23.10 skrev kavyvinson:> > > Free Will,> >> > I'm, sitting on a sofa and I decide to have a banana. The image of> > the banana pops into my mind and I have a craving for one. I did not> > decide this, this urge came from within. As I go towards the banana I> > feel fat and I think that I have been eating too many bananas> > recently so I decide not to have one. I think I have made a decision> > but all that happened was that a stronger urge came over me – a> > desire to get slim. So I have made no decisions; I just acted on> > desires and impulses which came without my conscious control.> >> > Now imagine a drug addict, he has a craving for a fix, but he fights> > against it. He knows he will never be really happy if he keeps using> > the drug. That he has lost his wife, his job, etc. His craving for> > the drug is immense, but he has an even greater desire to be happy,> > have a lovely wife, a family, and a rewarding job. Every now and> > again the desire for the drug overwhelmed him – who cares about all> > that when you can feel something more amazing than God, even if it's> > only for a short while. He fights the desire and on this occasion he> > wins.> >> > Can't you see that he does have free will, although very limited? He> > is a human so he cannot choose to have the desires of a dog. His> > desires and cravings are human, typical and preset. But he fought> > with all his might and won. This was a combination of his ego and his> > unconscious. In my opinion the mistake that people make when they say> > we have no free will is to believe that the ego, our consciousness,> > is in the driving seat. The whole of our bodies make the decision. We> > are not free to choose our urges as such, but we can motivate> > ourselves in a direction that is best for us. We have conscious> > control.> >> > Those that say we don't have free will are only half right.> > Ultimately we do have a free spirit, and all animals do, but only> > within the framework of what we were born to be.> >> > Kavy> >> >> >>

November 26, 2008

Hi everyone

I have to say

that this conversation worries me a bit, largely because the whole issue of

free will is so complex and depends so much on definition that it is really

impossible to say with any degree of certainty whether or not there is any such

thing as “free will”. It is an idea that philosophers have been

debating probably since ancient Greece,

and are no closer to agreement now than they were then. I do think we run the

risk of getting bogged in a philosophical quagmire; this may be fun if we want

to engage in a theoretical discussion/argument. But in practical day-to-day terms,

it is likely to cause confusion.

For me, this

issue is simple. Am I responsible for my own behaviour? I don’t believe

that it is socially acceptable to hide behind a deterministic façade, or to

blame my behaviour on anyone else. “He/she/the government/God made me do

it” is not acceptable. The answer is that I chose to do it, whether as a

result of a conscious exploration of options or as a habitual/instinctive

response. And my previous conditioning and experience does not excuse my

actions even though it may help to explain them.

This is where

ACT becomes important. Did my action lead me along the path towards a rich,

full and meaningful life? Or, in other words, did I take a committed action

that will tend to operationalise my values? Or, alternatively, how well did my

behaviour fulfil the “workability” test? If the answer is

positive, then do more of it. If the answer is negative, there are probably

issues of defusion and/or experiential avoidance to be considered.

Regards

Kinna

This e-mail is

personal. It is not authorised by, nor sent on behalf of the Department of Health

or the Government of South Australia.

From:

ACT_for_the_Public

[mailto:ACT_for_the_Public ]

On Behalf Of Jeppe Kabell

Sent: Thursday, 27 November 2008

4:26 PM

To: ACT_for_the_Public

Subject: Re:

Re: Free Will

Hi

Stan,

Yes I'm aware of the site and a member of the list. I still don't think

the last word has been said on society, free will, responsibility etc.

To me this is more a question of being able to work from multiple

perspectives at the same time - and also to look at it from different

psychological perspectives.

Ultimately I find it hard to deny, that if there's no free will, then

there's really no responsibility too. So I guess when you say

" resbonsible " you mean, that if I do a criminal act I'm a

" problem " (unwillingly) in the system, and therefore I have to be

" caused " into changing behaviour - e.g. by being put into jail? This

is not done to " punish " me in the sense of getting

" revenge " or " justice " , but simply to change my behaviour

in the future and for MY sake ( " Do you know how much it hurts to hit

people? " - Byron ). (That's the only logical reason I see doing it if

we agree there's no free will).

I disagree on what you write - that " I'm the cause of whatever effects following my

actions " .

I really don't think you are. That's just a story, starting in time

from the point where you did the action. In reality that action was caused by

anything happening in the whole universe up to that point in time, so we might

just as well say that your grandfather is the cause of whatever effects

following your actions Or blame it on being in the world with so many inputs

hitting us each second. But ultimately you and everything you do is just as

much a an effect as is the effect of your actions.

Back on track!

I understand how many people can't just accept the idea that we don't

have free will, that everything is just happening outside of it. I have found a

very usefull perspective to live by, which sort of combines the two things.

This is especially usefull in relation to guilt.

I suggest people that they adobt an attitude of thinking " Whatever

happened in the PAST is not my responsibility. It wasn't my fault. I'm not

guilty. I couldn't have acted any other way with the same thoughts and

circumstances. Not possible! " And even if you're in prinson this is true -

we're talking about psychological guilt here, not guilt according to law. Of

course you should on a logical, detached level learn from your mistakes, update

your values, assure that you start working in another directions than your

wrongdoings. But don't feel guilty for too long. It's unproductive. So looking

back = no free will = not guilty = not your fault. Really!

Looking forward, though, it can be very usefull to have an attitude of

thinking " The FUTURE is my responsibility. I have choices to make. I will

go in a different direction. I will choose to change path, and I will find out

how to do it. " Having an attitude of free will while looking forward is

empowering to most people. It can also be the cause of stress though, so watch

out. But to recap: Looking towards the future = free will = responsible =

empowering.

How it relates to ACT? Well, realizing that thoughts just are thoughts,

isn't that exactly the whole point of not having free will? That thoughts just

pop up? I see the whole " free will is not really true " -realization as

extremely beneficial for the A-part of ACT.

It also relates a lot to the mindfullness part of ACT. If I'm not my

thoughts, and if thoughts just happens - then who am I? The observing self? The

whole body? What's the consequence of me thinking when I make decisions -

especially if I don't choose my own thoughts? And again: One thing is what we

scientifically define as " I " , but what do we refer to when we talk

about " I " , " me " etc? And then we start approaching a

spiritual level, which ACT really isn't connected to - but then on the other

hand you could also say, that ACT is all about spirituality.

Den 27/11/2008 kl. 06.12 skrev Stan:

Jeppe,

Have you checked out the scientific naturalism website at

http://www.naturalism.org? It's run by Tom , and it contains

a