RE: Values and Action in Relationships

[Guest guest]

Values-talk can be draw into more mind-chatter

so be careful

A few questions

What would you have to give up to quit smoking AND have a

smoking partner, if you have a smoking partner?

When "my mind begins to tell me that I should leave her and be with someone that doesn't smoke" -- is that familiar?

If it is familiar, how has that larger (familiar) pattern worked?

Sit with those for a day or two and see what comes up ...

and perhaps some of the other (great) ACT folks on this list

can weigh in

- S

C.

Foundation Professor

Department of Psychology /298

University of Nevada

Reno, NV 89557-0062

Office: x2005 (don’t leave messages there … I mostly work from home,

esp. now that I have a new baby. Email me instead.)

Email: hayes@...

Context Press (you can use this for messages as well):

Fax:

Home:

Home fax: Use the Context Press line. It will automatically detect incoming faxes.

Cell (please use sparingly):

Relevant websites:

www.contextualpsychology.org (this one will soon subsume the ACT and RFT websites below; if you want my vita,

or publications from me, or PowerPoint slides, etc etc please carefully check out this site first. Go to my

blog and to the publications list etc. Given the flow of emails, I need all the help I can get. Thanks in advance.)

www.acceptanceandcommitmenttherapy.com

www.relationalframetheory.com

www.contextpress.com

www.unr.edu/psych then click on faculty pages

From: ACT_for_the_Public [mailto:ACT_for_the_Public ] On Behalf Of pitamindSent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 1:43 PMTo: ACT_for_the_Public Subject: Values and Action in Relationships

I am engaged. My partner and I currently smoke cigarettes. Whenever I'm willing to quit, I also try to strongly influence her to quit. Sometimes we quit together and sometimes not. One or the other of us usually goes back to smoking and the other follows and/or we go back together. I value non - smoking, as I was a non - smoker most of my life; she has smoked at least half of her life. I find that my mind chatters on and on about not accepting her choice to continue smoking while I am trying to quit. When I have a few days or a week away from smoking, I become more and more annoyed by her smoking; my mind begins to tell me that I should leave her and be with someone that doesn't smoke. So, if I value non - smoking and/or being intimate with a non - smoker, then does that mean that I should choose the direction to find a new non - smoking partner, and then take that action?

[Guest guest]

I find the " values " component of ACT very hard to understand and put

into practice, probably in part because of my well-ingrained patterns

of avoidance.

Some of the language in the ACT books about values seems borrowed

directly from the personal coaching and self-management movements in

popular culture, e.g. self-help gurus like Covey. On top of

that is laid the ACT perspective on how the mind works and how choice

is different than judgement. I can grasp these ideas intellectually,

but I often find myself floundering when I try to put them into

practice and choose my own values.

In the instance you mention, my initial reaction is that based on the

language you use, you yourself don't quite believe what your mind is

telling you - i.e. that you should leave your partner simply because

she smokes and you find this annoying. It sounds as if you think your

mind is judging the situation and proposing an action based on that

judgement.

My other question is whether " quitting smoking " and " finding a

non-smoking partner " are values - or whether in fact they are really

goals.

Many of us have unhealthy habits - personally, I overeat for

short-term comfort and avoidance. I'm working up to how I might go on

a diet and eat more healthily, and I'm wondering what domain this

would fall into and thus what value is involved; maybe " caring for

myself " ?

If my partner had the same issue, and I valued being in an intimate

relationship with her, my values in this area might then be " caring

for myself and caring for my partner. " Because " caring " is an ongoing

activity that never stops, it's a direction, and thus qualifies as a

value. If on the other hand I decided I needed to find a partner who

didn't overeat, that sounds more to me like a goal, because it can be

reached - i.e. I could in fact hope to find a partner who didn't overeat.

>

> I am engaged. My partner and I currently smoke cigarettes. Whenever I'm

> willing to quit, I also try to strongly influence her to quit.

> Sometimes we quit together and sometimes not. One or the other of us

> usually goes back to smoking and the other follows and/or we go back

> together. I value non - smoking, as I was a non - smoker most of my

> life; she has smoked at least half of her life. I find that my mind

> chatters on and on about not accepting her choice to continue smoking

> while I am trying to quit. When I have a few days or a week away from

> smoking, I become more and more annoyed by her smoking; my mind begins

> to tell me that I should leave her and be with someone that doesn't

> smoke. So, if I value non - smoking and/or being intimate with a non -

> smoker, then does that mean that I should choose the direction to find

> a new non - smoking partner, and then take that action?

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you Steve and usable_thought. I read your replies and some

things came up or clicked. I know what they are, but I will wait

until at least tomorrow to share them with you since Steve suggested

I sit with " that " for a day or two. On another note I picked up

Steve's title and began reading it yesterday; I'm taking my time with

it (i.e., a little bit of reading each day). I had the book before

and began it, only to put it down and discontinue its use. So this

time around I am working at a pace that isn't overwhelming to me.

Also my fiance and I are sharing the out - of - pocket cost to see a

local ACT therapist at least twice a month.

P.S. A little note: The " me " that comes across in what I write, isn't

necessarily a genuine reflection of the truth about me or my life.

Not that I aim to decieve, only I am not willing to be thoroughly

honest and/or I have been conditioned to present written

communication in a way that is very different (more

sophisticated/formalized) than my face to face interactions.

P.S.S. To Steve: I am the young man from LI,NY that has communicated

with you in the past via e - mail; that you referred to Zamir Korn;

that you helped get an early copy of your book.

[Guest guest]

I think they are goals, but they can be worthwhile and achievable

goals, as long as they are goals in the service of personal values.

For instance, quitting smoking could be a very sensible goal worked

towards in the service of the value of living a healthy life.

Seems to me that if there's an end point to what you're working

towards, it's a goal. If it's a never-ending process, it might be a

value.

Tony.

Tony Balazs, MSc, BCBA

Behavioural Learning Consultant

London, UK

On 19 Jan 2006, at 15:28, ACT_for_the_Public wrote:

> My other question is whether " quitting smoking " and " finding a

> non-smoking partner " are values - or whether in fact they are really

> goals.

[Guest guest]

I have been following this string of emails on " Values and

Relationships " and it has brought up some interesting thoughts and

questions I thought I might share.

While I agree with usablethought that the specific issue pitamind

brings up of " smoking or not smoking " is goal oriented, it seems to

me that underneath this there is an interesting question being

raised: How to pursue valued paths while involved in an intimate

relationship when the person (or people) you are connected to are

clearly affected by your choices, committments, etc.

For me this isn't an easy issue and is one that I face in my

marriage fairly regularly. It seems fair to say that most marriages

(or other forms of intimate relation) face this issue and, at least

in some part, that's what being connected to people is about.

In my experience following valued paths when involved in an intimate

relationship is a very different experience than following those

paths when you're single.

I see values pursuit while being connected to another person as a

set of circles. Some of the circles overlap a little, some a lot,

and some not at all.

For example, in my personal relationship I would say my wife and I

have a similar set of values when it comes to family, but are on

different paths in many ways when it comes to personal development

or social relations.

Sometimes this is a " good " thing and sometimes it

causes " diffculty. " In some cases our differences inform each others

experience of the world and in other cases these differences cause

conflict. In every case they cause mental chatter. But then ...

there's always that.

Classically marriages are about becoming a union. And eventually

that means sacrifice no matter how you look at it. I'm not

particularly concerned about the sacrifice persay. Sacrifice is

something we all do.

What I'm interested in is how and if ACT proposes a way to help

people who are involved in a situation where they value their

intimate relationship but also have a strong sense of values in

other domains. When these two worlds collide how does ACT handle it

specifically in the context of couples?

I'm not talking about the chatter that comes up when you are facing

this kind of situation. It seems that is adequately addressed.

I'm talking about how to effectively follow many different valued

paths when these paths will inevtiably cause conflict with and

perhaps even pain to the people around you.

Pain ... there it is ... I was wondering where I was really going.

I believe that I can honestly say that at this point I feel

relatively adept at accepting my own pain. It hurts. There's no

question about that. And I'm not pretending that I don't fall into

my own babble, I do it all the time--every single day.

But the pain I cause to others is much harder for me to accept. And

as I grow and become more mindful I realize that causing other

people pain is as inevitable as the pain each of us suffers with

individually.

That's a much harder pill to swallow. Let's see if I can choke it

down. I'm not sure ... I think I'm gagging on this one.

I suppose the direct answer is to be mindful of the thoughts and

feelings that arise in these situations. In part, it is my response

to the pain I cause others that brings grief. That's true. I can

accept that.

But it's also true that I would not cause pain to people I care

about (or anyone else) if I could help it.

Of course I can't help it, and that's the reality we are all faced

with isn't?

So ... Back to the cushion I guess.

In the meantime, it occurs to me that perhaps this all simply comes

down to a matter of choice and commitment and then looking at

whether or not those choices are working as a means toward a valued

end in the course of your life.

In any event, I would be interested to know if there is research

about what ACT has to say about these issues. Is there any research

on ACT in couples therapy that is revealing? How does it work? Does

it address problems of this nature?

Thanks for the opportunity to share.

>

> > My other question is whether " quitting smoking " and " finding a

> > non-smoking partner " are values - or whether in fact they are

really

> > goals.

>

[Guest guest]

I liked the way you worked through the issues even

as you wrote this ... neat

The issue of reducing harm to others is tricky.

In some deep way if you try to protect others from all pain

you are treating them as if they are not whole.

If you are yourself you will frighten others; but if you are

small you will as well.

Scenario one: you get on an elevator with strangers and after the door closes

you step forward, turn and face them, and look them in the eye

Scenario two: you get on an elevator with strangers and after the door closes

you head toward the corner, push your face into it, and slink down, getting as

small as you can

This is a fear example, but if you work though other emotions the same thing seems to hold.

When I've thought this through I come back to things like this:

I am not serving others by pretending to be small.

I am not serving others by pretending to be someone other than who I am.

I am not serving others by pretending to have values other than the ones I have.

I can serve others and reduce harm to others best by living a caring, sharing, valued, chosen, high integrity life.

But that does not mean others will not be hurt. Inadvertently and in some sense unavoidably they will be.

But I can empower those around me not to be harmed by their hurts. And I do that

by living a caring, sharing, valued, chosen, high integrity life.

As for couples evidence: it is starting. There is good evidence that mindfulness and acceptance

predicts better marital functioning correlationally. There are good studies on mindfulness and acceptance

work inpacting marriages in a healthy way: Andy Christensen, Neil son, Carson are some of the names.

Ellen Langer had a recent correlational study\

ACT couples work per se is just in its infancy. There we can only say: we shall see

- S

C.

Foundation Professor

Department of Psychology /298

University of Nevada

Reno, NV 89557-0062

Office: x2005 (don’t leave messages there … I mostly work from home,

esp. now that I have a new baby. Email me instead.)

Email: hayes@...

Context Press (you can use this for messages as well):

Fax:

Home:

Home fax: Use the Context Press line. It will automatically detect incoming faxes.

Cell (please use sparingly):

Relevant websites:

www.contextualpsychology.org (this one will soon subsume the ACT and RFT websites below; if you want my vita,

or publications from me, or PowerPoint slides, etc etc please carefully check out this site first. Go to my

blog and to the publications list etc. Given the flow of emails, I need all the help I can get. Thanks in advance.)

www.acceptanceandcommitmenttherapy.com

www.relationalframetheory.com

www.contextpress.com

www.unr.edu/psych then click on faculty pages

From: ACT_for_the_Public [mailto:ACT_for_the_Public ] On Behalf Of spencer046Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 11:42 AMTo: ACT_for_the_Public Subject: Re: Values and Action in Relationships

I have been following this string of emails on "Values and Relationships" and it has brought up some interesting thoughts and questions I thought I might share.While I agree with usablethought that the specific issue pitamind brings up of "smoking or not smoking" is goal oriented, it seems to me that underneath this there is an interesting question being raised: How to pursue valued paths while involved in an intimate relationship when the person (or people) you are connected to are clearly affected by your choices, committments, etc.For me this isn't an easy issue and is one that I face in my marriage fairly regularly. It seems fair to say that most marriages (or other forms of intimate relation) face this issue and, at least in some part, that's what being connected to people is about.In my experience following valued paths when involved in an intimate relationship is a very different experience than following those paths when you're single.I see values pursuit while being connected to another person as a set of circles. Some of the circles overlap a little, some a lot, and some not at all.For example, in my personal relationship I would say my wife and I have a similar set of values when it comes to family, but are on different paths in many ways when it comes to personal development or social relations.Sometimes this is a "good" thing and sometimes it causes "diffculty." In some cases our differences inform each others experience of the world and in other cases these differences cause conflict. In every case they cause mental chatter. But then ... there's always that.Classically marriages are about becoming a union. And eventually that means sacrifice no matter how you look at it. I'm not particularly concerned about the sacrifice persay. Sacrifice is something we all do.What I'm interested in is how and if ACT proposes a way to help people who are involved in a situation where they value their intimate relationship but also have a strong sense of values in other domains. When these two worlds collide how does ACT handle it specifically in the context of couples?I'm not talking about the chatter that comes up when you are facing this kind of situation. It seems that is adequately addressed.I'm talking about how to effectively follow many different valued paths when these paths will inevtiably cause conflict with and perhaps even pain to the people around you.Pain ... there it is ... I was wondering where I was really going.I believe that I can honestly say that at this point I feel relatively adept at accepting my own pain. It hurts. There's no question about that. And I'm not pretending that I don't fall into my own babble, I do it all the time--every single day.But the pain I cause to others is much harder for me to accept. And as I grow and become more mindful I realize that causing other people pain is as inevitable as the pain each of us suffers with individually.That's a much harder pill to swallow. Let's see if I can choke it down. I'm not sure ... I think I'm gagging on this one.I suppose the direct answer is to be mindful of the thoughts and feelings that arise in these situations. In part, it is my response to the pain I cause others that brings grief. That's true. I can accept that.But it's also true that I would not cause pain to people I care about (or anyone else) if I could help it.Of course I can't help it, and that's the reality we are all faced with isn't?So ... Back to the cushion I guess.In the meantime, it occurs to me that perhaps this all simply comes down to a matter of choice and commitment and then looking at whether or not those choices are working as a means toward a valued end in the course of your life.In any event, I would be interested to know if there is research about what ACT has to say about these issues. Is there any research on ACT in couples therapy that is revealing? How does it work? Does it address problems of this nature?Thanks for the opportunity to share.> > > My other question is whether "quitting smoking" and "finding a> > non-smoking partner" are values - or whether in fact they are really> > goals.>

[Guest guest]

Yeah -- this can be hard and minds are never really satisfied

(they are danger detection organs after all). Ultimately, we simply choose ..

and minds come along for the ride. The "answers" we demand of ourselves

after all are 99% of the time verbal, evaluative answers and if THAT

worked in the areas of values we would not need help.

Beyond values clarification, a couple of methods that can help:

a) use metaphors to collect data that goes beyond evaluative words

(if this job were an object what would it be? etc), and deliberately

teeter forward and back in indeterminacy and become very mindful

of what comes ups as you do that

Then at some point leap and live.

After all NOT choosing is still a choice ...

so you are leaping every moment anyway

- S

C.

Foundation Professor

Department of Psychology /298

University of Nevada

Reno, NV 89557-0062

Office: x2005 (don’t leave messages there … I mostly work from home,

esp. now that I have a new baby. Email me instead.)

Email: hayes@...

Context Press (you can use this for messages as well):

Fax:

Home:

Home fax: Use the Context Press line. It will automatically detect incoming faxes.

Cell (please use sparingly):

Relevant websites:

www.contextualpsychology.org (this one will soon subsume the ACT and RFT websites below; if you want my vita,

or publications from me, or PowerPoint slides, etc etc please carefully check out this site first. Go to my

blog and to the publications list etc. Given the flow of emails, I need all the help I can get. Thanks in advance.)

www.acceptanceandcommitmenttherapy.com

www.relationalframetheory.com

www.contextpress.com

www.unr.edu/psych then click on faculty pages

From: ACT_for_the_Public [mailto:ACT_for_the_Public ] On Behalf Of Randy BurgessSent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 7:41 AMTo: ACT_for_the_Public Subject: Re: Re: Values and Action in Relationships

> The tricky part for me is this question: Is it me (my mind) or is it> that I just haven't found the "right" girl for me yet? Sometimes I> agree that it's me, yet other times I think it's just that I haven't> found the "right" one for me. I have exactly the same issue, only with career decisions! ACT tells us that values are "choices" and that choices aren't judgments, but every choice we make in real life involves lots and lots of thoughts, if only to describe the things we're choosing among. My mind finds this confusing!It seems that Steve feels the *quality* of thought is important - if a thought feels stale, familiar, angry, etc. then it may be a judgment, whereas if it feels fresh or open, you may be experiencing connection with a value or at least with something that isn't a judgement per se. To date in my therapy I've had this "fresh" experience only once, and it occurred in a relatively minor (but still significant) domain. What was interesting was that I did recognize the newness of the experience when it occurred. So maybe there's hope.

[Guest guest]

I believe my values aren't clear. Would it help or hurt to jump to

the values section of Steve's book before beginning the first ten

chapters?

Steve, you have presented the metaphorical question to me previously.

You had asked " If this relationship were an object what would it

be... What would the alternative be? " When I used that method I came

up with the relationship being a box and/or treadmill and the

alternative being a beautiful sun - lit, fresh - aired, open field

with flowing grass and dandelions and/or an ice - skating rink. I

presented this method to myself twice and it came as box versus open

field and treadmill versus ice - skating rink.

Also after my fiance (then girlfriend) had been broken up, I was

seeing an ACT therapist. When I presented him with the problem that I

wasn't sure about getting back together, he suggested that I allow

myself to go back and forth without figuring anything out. The

result: I ?impulsively? got back together with her and we are living

together again. Individual therapy with him has ceased and as I wrote

last week, My fiance and I are seeing him together. His comments

among many are these: '...We need to clear out our " stuff " to see if

we are choosing each other just because, or if our being together is

driven by " need " not choice... and that we have unfinished business

with past relationships (parents) and are acting that out on one

another.'

Right now I am thinking and feeling: Fear, worry; I don't know what

I'm doing; I need help; I shouldn't be with her; I should be with her

and just learn to be more accepting; I'd be better off without her

etc. Also I'm embarrassed that I am " airing my dirty laundry " on a

public website.

[Guest guest]

I am just wondering if you are willing to wait for all these

questions to be answered before you act on anything in you

relationship? I can tell you I have been married for 17 years and I

still have all that chatter come up. Who doesn't? The mind is always

looking for something wrong. That is it's job.

Do you love her? Can you see yourself with her for the rest of your

life? If you want a relationship where everything is rainbows and

lollipops then you will never find that. I can guarantee that you

will have good times and you will have bad times.

Your relationship shaped like a box is very interesting. Is that

what you are viewing it like or is it your mind trying to trick you?

When the box comes up, are you in the box or are you just noticing

it. When the field comes up, are you in the field or are you just

noticing it?

Are you doing what you want or what your mind is telling you.

Greg

>

> I believe my values aren't clear. Would it help or hurt to jump to

> the values section of Steve's book before beginning the first ten

> chapters?

> Steve, you have presented the metaphorical question to me

previously.

> You had asked " If this relationship were an object what would it

> be... What would the alternative be? " When I used that method I

came

> up with the relationship being a box and/or treadmill and the

> alternative being a beautiful sun - lit, fresh - aired, open field

> with flowing grass and dandelions and/or an ice - skating rink. I

> presented this method to myself twice and it came as box versus

open

> field and treadmill versus ice - skating rink.

> Also after my fiance (then girlfriend) had been broken up, I was

> seeing an ACT therapist. When I presented him with the problem

that I

> wasn't sure about getting back together, he suggested that I allow

> myself to go back and forth without figuring anything out. The

> result: I ?impulsively? got back together with her and we are

living

> together again. Individual therapy with him has ceased and as I

wrote

> last week, My fiance and I are seeing him together. His comments

> among many are these: '...We need to clear out our " stuff " to see

if

> we are choosing each other just because, or if our being together

is

> driven by " need " not choice... and that we have unfinished

business

> with past relationships (parents) and are acting that out on one

> another.'

> Right now I am thinking and feeling: Fear, worry; I don't know

what

> I'm doing; I need help; I shouldn't be with her; I should be with

her

> and just learn to be more accepting; I'd be better off without her

> etc. Also I'm embarrassed that I am " airing my dirty laundry " on a

> public website.

>

[Guest guest]

No. I am not willing to wait to act. No I am not in the box, but I am

in the field. I don't know whether or not I am doing what I want, or

what my mind is telling me. Sometimes it seems that both are true,

i.e., I am doing what I want and what my mind is telling me. However, I

will reserve the rest of this personal discussion for my couples

sessions, since this group is for general public questions/advice. I

greatly appreciate all who have commented in reply.