Re: Plyometric training for endurance athletes and sprinters

[Guest guest]

A force plate cannot prove a increase in store elastic energy.

In fact it was previsibile you would relay on this for your

argumentation, but the things are not so simple. In fact, because

springs are constrained , this doesn't many anything.

To prove that an arm swing enhanced stored elastic energy you must

prove that the arm swing :

1. either changes the intrinsic properties of the spring

2. either causes the spring to be stretched on a larger distance.

3. EMG measures muscle activation, grossly speaking, it will probably

not be relevant in describing the energy stored in a spring, which is

released without **further activation** of the muscle by.

Until you can prove either point 1 or 2, I will say you are

speculating without any kind of support whatsoever.

I wait for you top produced some evidence to your claims. (Please no

vector composition again, randomly quoting a book doesnt help your case)

Dan Partelly

Oradea, Romania

>

>

>

>

> > Tony's performances, which I couldn't explain at the time using

the way

> > coaches at my level were presenting mechanics, (arm swing, leg

cycling,

> > etc.) led

> > me to the locomotion labs at Harvard and Rice University, and a

look into

> > the spring mass model, which you really defined quite elegantly.

> >

>

> Hi Ken,

>

> I'm not sure we can compare your well sprung paraolympian across all

arm

> swing circumstances. I'm suggesting that a vigorous arm upswing

coordinated with

> calf stretch will increase the stored elastic energy translating

into a greater

> calf drive and also stretch reflex activity. There should be an EMG

study

> somewhere to (dis)prove this. And a force plate study to indicate the

> effectiveness of the arm swing.

>

> Not that this is the only means for such an endeavor. A wilder

speculation is

> that trunk rotation does also. Maybe the deleterious effect of

sprinting with

> the arms inside of a tight tee-shirt will demonstrate the

effectiveness of a

> vigorous arm swing?

>

> Jerry Telle

> Lakewood CO USA

>

> ==============================

>

> Thanks for this insight.

>

> Ten years before Pistorius and the debates of Cheetah prosthetics

> being a competitive advantage, Paralympian Tony Volpentest ran 22.94

on my

> track

> here at Lisle High School, a time faster than 97% of every able

bodied prep

> athlete I've trained over the past thirty-four years. Tony had neither

> lower arms nor feet.

>

> Tony's performances, which I couldn't explain at the time using the way

> coaches at my level were presenting mechanics, (arm swing, leg

cycling, etc.)

> led

> me to the locomotion labs at Harvard and Rice University, and a look

into

> the spring mass model, which you really defined quite elegantly.

>

> ========================

>

[Guest guest]

A force plate cannot prove a increase in store elastic energy.

In fact it was previsibile you would relay on this for your

argumentation, but the things are not so simple. In fact, because

springs are constrained , this doesn't many anything.

To prove that an arm swing enhanced stored elastic energy you must

prove that the arm swing :

1. either changes the intrinsic properties of the spring

2. either causes the spring to be stretched on a larger distance.

3. EMG measures muscle activation, grossly speaking, it will probably

not be relevant in describing the energy stored in a spring, which is

released without **further activation** of the muscle by.

Until you can prove either point 1 or 2, I will say you are

speculating without any kind of support whatsoever.

I wait for you top produced some evidence to your claims. (Please no

vector composition again, randomly quoting a book doesnt help your case)

Dan Partelly

Oradea, Romania

>

>

>

>

> > Tony's performances, which I couldn't explain at the time using

the way

> > coaches at my level were presenting mechanics, (arm swing, leg

cycling,

> > etc.) led

> > me to the locomotion labs at Harvard and Rice University, and a

look into

> > the spring mass model, which you really defined quite elegantly.

> >

>

> Hi Ken,

>

> I'm not sure we can compare your well sprung paraolympian across all

arm

> swing circumstances. I'm suggesting that a vigorous arm upswing

coordinated with

> calf stretch will increase the stored elastic energy translating

into a greater

> calf drive and also stretch reflex activity. There should be an EMG

study

> somewhere to (dis)prove this. And a force plate study to indicate the

> effectiveness of the arm swing.

>

> Not that this is the only means for such an endeavor. A wilder

speculation is

> that trunk rotation does also. Maybe the deleterious effect of

sprinting with

> the arms inside of a tight tee-shirt will demonstrate the

effectiveness of a

> vigorous arm swing?

>

> Jerry Telle

> Lakewood CO USA

>

> ==============================

>

> Thanks for this insight.

>

> Ten years before Pistorius and the debates of Cheetah prosthetics

> being a competitive advantage, Paralympian Tony Volpentest ran 22.94

on my

> track

> here at Lisle High School, a time faster than 97% of every able

bodied prep

> athlete I've trained over the past thirty-four years. Tony had neither

> lower arms nor feet.

>

> Tony's performances, which I couldn't explain at the time using the way

> coaches at my level were presenting mechanics, (arm swing, leg

cycling, etc.)

> led

> me to the locomotion labs at Harvard and Rice University, and a look

into

> the spring mass model, which you really defined quite elegantly.

>

> ========================

>

[Guest guest]

A force plate cannot prove a increase in store elastic energy.

In fact it was previsibile you would relay on this for your

argumentation, but the things are not so simple. In fact, because

springs are constrained , this doesn't many anything.

To prove that an arm swing enhanced stored elastic energy you must

prove that the arm swing :

1. either changes the intrinsic properties of the spring

2. either causes the spring to be stretched on a larger distance.

3. EMG measures muscle activation, grossly speaking, it will probably

not be relevant in describing the energy stored in a spring, which is

released without **further activation** of the muscle by.

Until you can prove either point 1 or 2, I will say you are

speculating without any kind of support whatsoever.

I wait for you top produced some evidence to your claims. (Please no

vector composition again, randomly quoting a book doesnt help your case)

Dan Partelly

Oradea, Romania

>

>

>

>

> > Tony's performances, which I couldn't explain at the time using

the way

> > coaches at my level were presenting mechanics, (arm swing, leg

cycling,

> > etc.) led

> > me to the locomotion labs at Harvard and Rice University, and a

look into

> > the spring mass model, which you really defined quite elegantly.

> >

>

> Hi Ken,

>

> I'm not sure we can compare your well sprung paraolympian across all

arm

> swing circumstances. I'm suggesting that a vigorous arm upswing

coordinated with

> calf stretch will increase the stored elastic energy translating

into a greater

> calf drive and also stretch reflex activity. There should be an EMG

study

> somewhere to (dis)prove this. And a force plate study to indicate the

> effectiveness of the arm swing.

>

> Not that this is the only means for such an endeavor. A wilder

speculation is

> that trunk rotation does also. Maybe the deleterious effect of

sprinting with

> the arms inside of a tight tee-shirt will demonstrate the

effectiveness of a

> vigorous arm swing?

>

> Jerry Telle

> Lakewood CO USA

>

> ==============================

>

> Thanks for this insight.

>

> Ten years before Pistorius and the debates of Cheetah prosthetics

> being a competitive advantage, Paralympian Tony Volpentest ran 22.94

on my

> track

> here at Lisle High School, a time faster than 97% of every able

bodied prep

> athlete I've trained over the past thirty-four years. Tony had neither

> lower arms nor feet.

>

> Tony's performances, which I couldn't explain at the time using the way

> coaches at my level were presenting mechanics, (arm swing, leg

cycling, etc.)

> led

> me to the locomotion labs at Harvard and Rice University, and a look

into

> the spring mass model, which you really defined quite elegantly.

>

> ========================

>

[Guest guest]

Hello Jerry,

Wouldn't it be the downward or backward driven force of the opposite arm

resulting in an increase in opposite leg posterior muscle stiffening that would

assist in greater spring? or am I off base.

Thanks for any clarification

Doug Fairbanks

Boston, MA

=============================

To: Supertraining

From: JRTELLE@...

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 16:15:02 -0500

Subject: Re: Plyometric training for endurance athletes and

sprinters

> Tony's performances, which I couldn't explain at the time using the way

> coaches at my level were presenting mechanics, (arm swing, leg cycling,

> etc.) led

> me to the locomotion labs at Harvard and Rice University, and a look into

> the spring mass model, which you really defined quite elegantly.

>

Hi Ken,

I'm not sure we can compare your well sprung paraolympian across all arm

swing circumstances. I'm suggesting that a vigorous arm upswing coordinated with

calf stretch will increase the stored elastic energy translating into a greater

calf drive and also stretch reflex activity. There should be an EMG study

somewhere to (dis)prove this. And a force plate study to indicate the

effectiveness of the arm swing.

Not that this is the only means for such an endeavor. A wilder speculation is

that trunk rotation does also. Maybe the deleterious effect of sprinting with

the arms inside of a tight tee-shirt will demonstrate the effectiveness of a

vigorous arm swing?

Jerry Telle

Lakewood CO USA

==============================

Thanks for this insight.

Ten years before Pistorius and the debates of Cheetah prosthetics

being a competitive advantage, Paralympian Tony Volpentest ran 22.94 on my

track

here at Lisle High School, a time faster than 97% of every able bodied prep

athlete I've trained over the past thirty-four years. Tony had neither

lower arms nor feet.

Tony's performances, which I couldn't explain at the time using the way

coaches at my level were presenting mechanics, (arm swing, leg cycling, etc.)

led

me to the locomotion labs at Harvard and Rice University, and a look into

the spring mass model, which you really defined quite elegantly.

========================

[Guest guest]

Hello Jerry,

Wouldn't it be the downward or backward driven force of the opposite arm

resulting in an increase in opposite leg posterior muscle stiffening that would

assist in greater spring? or am I off base.

Thanks for any clarification

Doug Fairbanks

Boston, MA

=============================

To: Supertraining

From: JRTELLE@...

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 16:15:02 -0500

Subject: Re: Plyometric training for endurance athletes and

sprinters

> Tony's performances, which I couldn't explain at the time using the way

> coaches at my level were presenting mechanics, (arm swing, leg cycling,

> etc.) led

> me to the locomotion labs at Harvard and Rice University, and a look into

> the spring mass model, which you really defined quite elegantly.

>

Hi Ken,

I'm not sure we can compare your well sprung paraolympian across all arm

swing circumstances. I'm suggesting that a vigorous arm upswing coordinated with

calf stretch will increase the stored elastic energy translating into a greater

calf drive and also stretch reflex activity. There should be an EMG study

somewhere to (dis)prove this. And a force plate study to indicate the

effectiveness of the arm swing.

Not that this is the only means for such an endeavor. A wilder speculation is

that trunk rotation does also. Maybe the deleterious effect of sprinting with

the arms inside of a tight tee-shirt will demonstrate the effectiveness of a

vigorous arm swing?

Jerry Telle

Lakewood CO USA

==============================

Thanks for this insight.

Ten years before Pistorius and the debates of Cheetah prosthetics

being a competitive advantage, Paralympian Tony Volpentest ran 22.94 on my

track

here at Lisle High School, a time faster than 97% of every able bodied prep

athlete I've trained over the past thirty-four years. Tony had neither

lower arms nor feet.

Tony's performances, which I couldn't explain at the time using the way

coaches at my level were presenting mechanics, (arm swing, leg cycling, etc.)

led

me to the locomotion labs at Harvard and Rice University, and a look into

the spring mass model, which you really defined quite elegantly.

========================

[Guest guest]

Hello Jerry,

Wouldn't it be the downward or backward driven force of the opposite arm

resulting in an increase in opposite leg posterior muscle stiffening that would

assist in greater spring? or am I off base.

Thanks for any clarification

Doug Fairbanks

Boston, MA

=============================

To: Supertraining

From: JRTELLE@...

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 16:15:02 -0500

Subject: Re: Plyometric training for endurance athletes and

sprinters

> Tony's performances, which I couldn't explain at the time using the way

> coaches at my level were presenting mechanics, (arm swing, leg cycling,

> etc.) led

> me to the locomotion labs at Harvard and Rice University, and a look into

> the spring mass model, which you really defined quite elegantly.

>

Hi Ken,

I'm not sure we can compare your well sprung paraolympian across all arm

swing circumstances. I'm suggesting that a vigorous arm upswing coordinated with

calf stretch will increase the stored elastic energy translating into a greater

calf drive and also stretch reflex activity. There should be an EMG study

somewhere to (dis)prove this. And a force plate study to indicate the

effectiveness of the arm swing.

Not that this is the only means for such an endeavor. A wilder speculation is

that trunk rotation does also. Maybe the deleterious effect of sprinting with

the arms inside of a tight tee-shirt will demonstrate the effectiveness of a

vigorous arm swing?

Jerry Telle

Lakewood CO USA

==============================

Thanks for this insight.

Ten years before Pistorius and the debates of Cheetah prosthetics

being a competitive advantage, Paralympian Tony Volpentest ran 22.94 on my

track

here at Lisle High School, a time faster than 97% of every able bodied prep

athlete I've trained over the past thirty-four years. Tony had neither

lower arms nor feet.

Tony's performances, which I couldn't explain at the time using the way

coaches at my level were presenting mechanics, (arm swing, leg cycling, etc.)

led

me to the locomotion labs at Harvard and Rice University, and a look into

the spring mass model, which you really defined quite elegantly.

========================

[Guest guest]

HI Doug

YES sorry about the over simplification.

Jerry

Jerry Telle

CO USA

> Wouldn't it be the downward or backward driven force of the opposite

> arm resulting in an increase in opposite leg posterior muscle

> stiffening that would assist in greater spring? or am I off base.

>

> Thanks for any clarification

[Guest guest]

Although track coaches have for years yelled at runners to " pump your arms " in

an effort to pick up speed at the end of a race when they are fading, the arms

are probably just providing a balancing and coordination effect.   It might

appear that they contribute to an increased leg turnover, but what you are

really seeing is the runner simply summoning up a last ditch kick.

Jon Haddan

Irvine, CA

Subject: Re: Plyometric training for endurance athletes and

sprinters

To: " group " <supertraining >

Date: Friday, February 20, 2009, 11:38 AM

Hello Jerry,

Wouldn't it be the downward or backward driven force of the opposite arm

resulting in an increase in opposite leg posterior muscle stiffening that would

assist in greater spring? or am I off base.

Thanks for any clarification

Doug Fairbanks

Boston, MA

============ ========= ========

[Guest guest]

Although track coaches have for years yelled at runners to " pump your arms " in

an effort to pick up speed at the end of a race when they are fading, the arms

are probably just providing a balancing and coordination effect.   It might

appear that they contribute to an increased leg turnover, but what you are

really seeing is the runner simply summoning up a last ditch kick.

Jon Haddan

Irvine, CA

Subject: Re: Plyometric training for endurance athletes and

sprinters

To: " group " <supertraining >

Date: Friday, February 20, 2009, 11:38 AM

Hello Jerry,

Wouldn't it be the downward or backward driven force of the opposite arm

resulting in an increase in opposite leg posterior muscle stiffening that would

assist in greater spring? or am I off base.

Thanks for any clarification

Doug Fairbanks

Boston, MA

============ ========= ========