Re: Re: W. A. Price, abridged

[Guest guest]

>Punishment, vengeance, absolute good and evil, and that really cool

>myth, original sin, are all religious specialties of our culture.

>These deeply ingrained beliefs always put compassion to the back of the

>bus and are ignorantly clung to in spite of any evidence to the

>contrary. We live in profoundly irrational times, but goodness and

>beauty get short shrift as well.

>

>jo

Ah, well said.

When I had my kids I decided to " assume nothing " and try to figure out " what

works "

for raising kids, which led me to the Continuum Concept and a few other things.

I have to say that " what works " has never been the stuff that I was TOLD works

for raising kids ... they are really good kids and people are always amazed at

them,

and they DO get disciplined, but not in the way that most child-rearers suggest

....

I got most of *my* training from training animals, who really don't work on a

" right/wrong "

framework.

The most amazing thing I've seen with animals and kids is how they work

on a kind of subconscious or body-language kind of cooperation. That is,

the cat *knows* when it is bedtime and starts giving signals to my daughter,

who picks up on them and says " the cat is telling me she wants me to go to

bed to be her pillow " . There is this kind of empathy that happens ... when the

kids know I'm stressed, they back off and stay quiet, give me space. Ditto when

I know they are stressed. I think " compassion " is ideally a form of empathy,

where

people connect well and give each other what they need.

But that " connectedness " is exactly what our culture lacks. Along with, as you

say, goodness and beauty ...

-- Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

At 01:58 AM 8/14/2004, you wrote:

>Ah, well said.

>

>When I had my kids I decided to " assume nothing " and try to figure out

> " what works "

>for raising kids, which led me to the Continuum Concept and a few other

>things.

>I have to say that " what works " has never been the stuff that I was TOLD works

>for raising kids ... they are really good kids and people are always

>amazed at them,

>and they DO get disciplined, but not in the way that most child-rearers

>suggest ...

>I got most of *my* training from training animals, who really don't work

>on a " right/wrong "

>framework.

>

>The most amazing thing I've seen with animals and kids is how they work

>on a kind of subconscious or body-language kind of cooperation. That is,

>the cat *knows* when it is bedtime and starts giving signals to my daughter,

>who picks up on them and says " the cat is telling me she wants me to go to

>bed to be her pillow " . There is this kind of empathy that happens ... when the

>kids know I'm stressed, they back off and stay quiet, give me space. Ditto

>when

>I know they are stressed. I think " compassion " is ideally a form of

>empathy, where

>people connect well and give each other what they need.

>

>But that " connectedness " is exactly what our culture lacks. Along with, as you

>say, goodness and beauty ...

>

>-- Heidi Jean

indeed! twice well said!

we had a little girl here yesterday playing with amber, and her parents

were constantly telling her (at a grand 14 months) all the things she was

doing wrong. they didn't allow any room for her own discovery. at one

point, the girls were trying to pass each other, and ended up pushing one

another - but it was clear from their faces that they were not being

malicious, merely trying to negotiate clumsy bodies in a narrow space. we

did nothing - we simply saw two children moving around. her parents started

yelling at her not to push and went off on a big lecture about treating

people how you want to be treated. and all i could think was that the

little girl probably wanted to be treated in such a way that allowed her to

learn as best she could, and that recognized that she was just a baby with

no malicious intent.

so many days, i just want to weep for all the poor children who are treated

as villians but just want to be hugged and treated kindly.

-katja

[Guest guest]

>> I got most of *my* training from training animals, who really don't

> work on a " right/wrong "

>> framework.

Most of what I know about raising children and being a boss (which

thankfully I don't do much of these days) I learned from " Good Owners,

Great Dogs. " Fun, firm, fair.

Lynn S.

------

Lynn Siprelle * web developer, writer, mama, fiber junky

http://www.siprelle.com * http://www.thenewhomemaker.com

http://www.democracyfororegon.com * http://www.wisforwomen.com

[Guest guest]

>and all i could think was that the

>little girl probably wanted to be treated in such a way that allowed her to

>learn as best she could, and that recognized that she was just a baby with

>no malicious intent.

Oh, that sort of thing makes me soooo angry! When my dd was

2, she didn't want to show someone a toy she was holding. The

person said " Oh, now you aren't going to be SELFISH are you! "

(not joking, but as in " you are practicing one of the 7 deadly sins " ).

Fortunately our style of parenting works well enough that no

one can accuse us of having spoiled brats for kids, but really,

I haven't found it useful to label them as anything negative,

or spank them, or use much punishment at all (other than ...

" No, I won't get that for you: you didn't help ME out when I

asked, why should I help YOU when you ask? " ... which is amazingly

effective.)

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

>

>

>Here's an article about Temple Grandin, known for her influence on

>industry that handles cattle:

>

><http://americanradioworks.publicradio.org/features/mcdonalds/grandin1.>http://\

americanradioworks.publicradio.org/features/mcdonalds/grandin1.

>html

:

Thanks for the link! I love Temple Grandin ... being from an Aspergerish family

myself

I understand where she is coming from. What is really impressive is that

unlike most folks with empathy for animals she doesn't run from the situation

by being " vegetarian " (which also isn't good for animals!) or otherwise being

in denial. Since I've tried to take responsibility for the meat we eat, which

means sometimes raising it, being in the vicinity when it is butchered etc. I've

gotten some strange reactions from people who think that is rather bloodthirsty.

It's a lot harder to face the problem head-on and DO something about it, than

to close your eyes and buy some packaged hamburger.

> Also, I notice that the really influential leaders in the Old

>Testament got their start by handling large groups of animals (e.g.,

>Adam, Moses, /Israel, ), so if you get to be good at

>handling groups of animals well, you have learned a lot about how to

>handle groups of people well.

Heh heh. That's a good point! When I hire child-caretakers I try

to get folks that have done animal handling as well. Besides

being good at handling kids, they are not afraid of bodily fluids

or messes ...

Heidi Jean