RE: Othmer low reward

July 9, 2008

Mark,

Yes. Pendant or Focus both go down below 2Hz; both, in fact, go below 0.5, and the Focus down to 0. Either one with BE and the package of preset protocols will run you less than $1100 delivered.

Pete

Does bioexpolorer enable rewarding below 2Hz in using the Othmer low reward protocols?What current hardware when used with bioexplorer enables this?

..

-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

July 9, 2008

Thanks for this reply and the previous one. Aside from the cost issues .Would Brainmaster enable the low frequency rewards?

Mark

Re: Othmer low reward

Mark,

Yes. Pendant or Focus both go down below 2Hz; both, in fact, go below 0.5, and the Focus down to 0. Either one with BE and the package of preset protocols will run you less than $1100 delivered.

Pete

On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 11:04 PM, Mark Baddeley <baddeleyhermes (DOT) net.au> wrote:

Does bioexpolorer enable rewarding below 2Hz in using the Othmer low reward protocols?What current hardware when used with bioexplorer enables this?

..

-- Van Deusenpvdtlcgmail http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

July 9, 2008

Mark,You can do the training with BIoEx.EEG info used to have designs posted for download on their websites. I know that the QDS amps also can go that low. georgemartin@...www.northstarneurofeedback.com Does bioexpolorer enable rewarding below 2Hz in using the Othmer low reward protocols?What current hardware when used with bioexplorer enables this?Mark ------------------------------------

July 9, 2008

EEG info still has the downloads available, I just downloaded them last week.To: braintrainer From: gmartin@...Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 22:56:02 -0500Subject: Re: Othmer low reward

Mark,You can do the training with BIoEx.EEG info used to have designs posted for download on their websites. I know that the QDS amps also can go that low. georgemartinnorthstarneurofeedbackwww.northstarneurofeedback.com Does bioexpolorer enable rewarding below 2Hz in using the Othmer low reward protocols?What current hardware when used with bioexplorer enables this?Mark ------------------------------------

July 9, 2008

Thanks .

Re: Othmer low reward

Mark,

You can do the training with BIoEx.

EEG info used to have designs posted for download on their websites. I know that the QDS amps also can go that low.

georgemartinnorthstarneurofeedback

www.northstarneurofeedback.com

Does bioexpolorer enable rewarding below 2Hz in using the Othmer low reward

protocols?

What current hardware when used with bioexplorer enables this?

Mark

------------------------------------

July 10, 2008

Mark,

The Atlantis does, I believe, if you'd prefer to pay about triple the price plus an extra $100 to be able to use BioExplorer.

Pete

Thanks for this reply and the previous one. Aside from the cost issues .Would Brainmaster enable the low frequency rewards?

..

-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

July 10, 2008

Mark,

The Atlantis does, I believe, if you'd prefer to pay about triple the price plus an extra $100 to be able to use BioExplorer.

Pete

Thanks for this reply and the previous one. Aside from the cost issues .Would Brainmaster enable the low frequency rewards?

..

-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

July 10, 2008

>

> Does bioexpolorer enable rewarding below 2Hz in using the

Othmer low reward

> protocols?

> What current hardware when used with bioexplorer enables this?

> Mark

>

> ------------------------------------

>

July 10, 2008

Rene,

At 0-0.1 Hz as a reward band (which BE does just fine), you have some problems caused by the physics of digital signal processing (which perhaps the Othmers have repealed):

1. An elliptic filter, 1st order, which only produces a delay of 150 ms., isn't very accurate. In fact, it passes 200% of the signal around the area they want to measure but 100% of all activity up as high as nearly 2 Hz. Not exactly training 0-0.1 Hz. Raising the filter order to 2 provides a little more specific and accurate filter--but the time delay goes up around 1.5 seconds and above.

2. The Butterworth filter the Othmers usually use, in its fastest form (1st order) does provide a fairly accurate reading of the band they want to train, but the delay ranges from about 1/2 second to about 2.25 seconds.

In other words, in order to actually SEE the frequency they say they are training, they have to set up the filters so they literally give the feedback between one and a half and two and a half seconds AFTER the even happens in the brain. That's the equivalent of trying to train a puppy by giving him a treat about 10 minutes after he does something you tell him to do.

I leave it to you to imagine what kind of accuracy and delay are provided by asking a filter to measure a band that is 2/100 of a Hz (the above are 50/100 Hz wide).

is more versed in BioEra, which is the real software under Cygnet, so perhaps he can tell us that I'm completely off base here and that there are filters or other devices in BioEra that will indeed allow a fast and accurate measuring of signals in this range.

Otherwise, we can all find out how effective this will be--and I'm sure it will represent yet another revolutionary improvement in results--by buying the Othmers' software, which I understand is quite expensive and does essentially this one thing.

Pete

My previous provider was Othmer based and she was using one channel bipolar training, multiple inhibits, with a reward of 0.0--0.1 QDS will support 0.0 --0.1 and even lower, but Bioexplorer will not go down lower than 0.0 -- 0.1

I received a recent EEG info e newsletter and it sounds like the Othmers are going lower with the Cygnet--- as low as O.O -- O.05 and 0.0 ---0.02. As usual in the field of neurofeedback, there are many opinions about whether or not going that low is effective or

necessary, but it is the direction that EEG Info seems to be going.

..-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com

305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

July 10, 2008

Rene,I asked Sig Othmer at iSNR last year if he could tell me what type of filters he used in their low frequency training. He could not but did suggest I download the designs from the eeg info site. Those designs are free and apparently still available. You could look to see what type of filtering they used there.In terms of Cygnet I am unsure of what filters they are using. One of the really powerful things that can happen in BIoEra is that changes in one object can result in changes in other objects as well. For instance in Cygnet as you lower the frequency range you are working the band also narrows. It may be that they also change filter order too. The Cygnet designs are not available for view or modification so it is not possible to say exactly they use. I suspect that Sig might say is something like this (and I beg forgiveness for putting words in some one else's mouth) I have heard others suggest this as well So here is the made up quoteIf you are down to signals at .5 hz a longer delay may not be as big a factor. As the wave form itself takes 2 seconds to cycle. Measuring a 30hz signal with that delay would of course be absurd.BioEra does not give a delay graph like BioEra does but here are the numbers I found when setting the eeg neuroamp as the source device with a 0 - 0.5 hz filter.All filters 3rd order in order to get a decent frequency roll off.Butterworth delay of 1.1 secondsChebyshev, delay of 1.46 secondBesel Delay of .68 seconds but the frequency roll of extends to 1.5 hz.I just downloaded the BioEx designs.The newest one, multiple inhibit one reward uses a second order elliptic filter. with a 0 to 3 hz range Elliptic filters are not available in BioEra at this time.The delay is just over 30 seconds at the lowest end (about .5 hz). The delay is hard to see on the graph in BE but looks to be a second or so just past .5 and slowly going up to about 2 seconds by the end of the band.Approximately the same delay seems to occur with a 0 to .5 hz filter with the largest delay coming from 0 to .05. Again about 30 seconds. The frequency distribution is quite broad, the peak is around 3hz with very shallow roll off.This may be more info than you wanted but I figured I'd be thorough georgemartin@...www.northstarneurofeedback.com Rene, At 0-0.1 Hz as a reward band (which BE does just fine), you have some problems caused by the physics of digital signal processing (which perhaps the Othmers have repealed):1. An elliptic filter, 1st order, which only produces a delay of 150 ms., isn't very accurate. In fact, it passes 200% of the signal around the area they want to measure but 100% of all activity up as high as nearly 2 Hz. Not exactly training 0-0.1 Hz. Raising the filter order to 2 provides a little more specific and accurate filter--but the time delay goes up around 1.5 seconds and above.2. The Butterworth filter the Othmers usually use, in its fastest form (1st order) does provide a fairly accurate reading of the band they want to train, but the delay ranges from about 1/2 second to about 2.25 seconds.In other words, in order to actually SEE the frequency they say they are training, they have to set up the filters so they literally give the feedback between one and a half and two and a half seconds AFTER the even happens in the brain. That's the equivalent of trying to train a puppy by giving him a treat about 10 minutes after he does something you tell him to do. I leave it to you to imagine what kind of accuracy and delay are provided by asking a filter to measure a band that is 2/100 of a Hz (the above are 50/100 Hz wide). is more versed in BioEra, which is the real software under Cygnet, so perhaps he can tell us that I'm completely off base here and that there are filters or other devices in BioEra that will indeed allow a fast and accurate measuring of signals in this range. Otherwise, we can all find out how effective this will be--and I'm sure it will represent yet another revolutionary improvement in results--by buying the Othmers' software, which I understand is quite expensive and does essentially this one thing. PeteMy previous provider was Othmer based and she was using one channel bipolar training, multiple inhibits, with a reward of 0.0--0.1 QDS will support 0.0 --0.1 and even lower, but Bioexplorer will not go down lower than 0.0 -- 0.1 I received a recent EEG info e newsletter and it sounds like the Othmers are going lower with the Cygnet--- as low as O.O -- O.05 and 0.0 ---0.02. As usual in the field of neurofeedback, there are many opinions about whether or not going that low is effective or necessary, but it is the direction that EEG Info seems to be going..-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

--- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! ---

July 11, 2008

Triple. Ouch!

Mark

Re: Othmer low reward

Mark,

The Atlantis does, I believe, if you'd prefer to pay about triple the price plus an extra $100 to be able to use BioExplorer.

Pete

On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 11:38 PM, Mark Baddeley <baddeleyhermes (DOT) net.au> wrote:

Thanks for this reply and the previous one. Aside from the cost issues .Would Brainmaster enable the low frequency rewards?

..

-- Van Deusenpvdtlcgmail http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

July 11, 2008

Thanks ,

Re: Othmer low reward

> > > Does bioexpolorer enable rewarding below 2Hz in using the Othmer low reward > protocols?> What current hardware when used with bioexplorer enables this?> Mark > > > > > > > ------------------------------------> > >

July 11, 2008

Hi at al.

I've been privately musing if the inhibits are the real factor but then thought the Othmers would say getting the right reward frequency adds an important if not essential ingedient.

Mark

Re: Re: Othmer low reward

Rene,

I asked Sig Othmer at iSNR last year if he could tell me what type of filters he used in their low frequency training. He could not but did suggest I download the designs from the eeg info site. Those designs are free and apparently still available. You could look to see what type of filtering they used there.

In terms of Cygnet I am unsure of what filters they are using. One of the really powerful things that can happen in BIoEra is that changes in one object can result in changes in other objects as well. For instance in Cygnet as you lower the frequency range you are working the band also narrows. It may be that they also change filter order too. The Cygnet designs are not available for view or modification so it is not possible to say exactly they use.

I suspect that Sig might say is something like this (and I beg forgiveness for putting words in some one else's mouth)

I have heard others suggest this as well

So here is the made up quote

If you are down to signals at .5 hz a longer delay may not be as big a factor. As the wave form itself takes 2 seconds to cycle. Measuring a 30hz signal with that delay would of course be absurd.

BioEra does not give a delay graph like BioEra does but here are the numbers I found when setting the eeg neuroamp as the source device with a 0 - 0.5 hz filter.

All filters 3rd order in order to get a decent frequency roll off.

Butterworth delay of 1.1 seconds

Chebyshev, delay of 1.46 second

Besel Delay of .68 seconds but the frequency roll of extends to 1.5 hz.

I just downloaded the BioEx designs.

The newest one, multiple inhibit one reward uses a second order elliptic filter. with a 0 to 3 hz range Elliptic filters are not available in BioEra at this time.

The delay is just over 30 seconds at the lowest end (about .5 hz). The delay is hard to see on the graph in BE but looks to be a second or so just past .5 and slowly going up to about 2 seconds by the end of the band.

Approximately the same delay seems to occur with a 0 to .5 hz filter with the largest delay coming from 0 to .05. Again about 30 seconds.

The frequency distribution is quite broad, the peak is around 3hz with very shallow roll off.

This may be more info than you wanted but I figured I'd be thorough

georgemartinnorthstarneurofeedback

www.northstarneurofeedback.com

Rene,

At 0-0.1 Hz as a reward band (which BE does just fine), you have some problems caused by the physics of digital signal processing (which perhaps the Othmers have repealed):

1. An elliptic filter, 1st order, which only produces a delay of 150 ms., isn't very accurate. In fact, it passes 200% of the signal around the area they want to measure but 100% of all activity up as high as nearly 2 Hz. Not exactly training 0-0.1 Hz. Raising the filter order to 2 provides a little more specific and accurate filter--but the time delay goes up around 1.5 seconds and above.

2. The Butterworth filter the Othmers usually use, in its fastest form (1st order) does provide a fairly accurate reading of the band they want to train, but the delay ranges from about 1/2 second to about 2.25 seconds.

In other words, in order to actually SEE the frequency they say they are training, they have to set up the filters so they literally give the feedback between one and a half and two and a half seconds AFTER the even happens in the brain. That's the equivalent of trying to train a puppy by giving him a treat about 10 minutes after he does something you tell him to do.

I leave it to you to imagine what kind of accuracy and delay are provided by asking a filter to measure a band that is 2/100 of a Hz (the above are 50/100 Hz wide).

is more versed in BioEra, which is the real software under Cygnet, so perhaps he can tell us that I'm completely off base here and that there are filters or other devices in BioEra that will indeed allow a fast and accurate measuring of signals in this range.

Otherwise, we can all find out how effective this will be--and I'm sure it will represent yet another revolutionary improvement in results--by buying the Othmers' software, which I understand is quite expensive and does essentially this one thing.

Pete

On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 12:41 PM, renekay97213 <rene.campagnaprovidence (DOT) org> wrote:

My previous provider was Othmer based and she was using one channel bipolar training, multiple inhibits, with a reward of 0.0--0.1 QDS will support 0.0 --0.1 and even lower, but Bioexplorer will not go down lower than 0.0 -- 0.1 I received a recent EEG info e newsletter and it sounds like the Othmers are going lower with the Cygnet--- as low as O.O -- O.05 and 0.0 ---0.02. As usual in the field of neurofeedback, there are many opinions about whether or not going that low is effective or necessary, but it is the direction that EEG Info seems to be going.

..-- Van Deusenpvdtlcgmail http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

--- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! ---

July 11, 2008

What do you mean by balance below? Also recent Othmer protocols now suggest that interhemispheric training be restricted to T3 T4. and that other sites are trained by intrahemispheric reference to the appropriate T3 or T4 site.

Mark

Re: Re: Othmer low reward

Rene,

I asked Sig Othmer at iSNR last year if he could tell me what type of filters he used in their low frequency training. He could not but did suggest I download the designs from the eeg info site. Those designs are free and apparently still available. You could look to see what type of filtering they used there.

In terms of Cygnet I am unsure of what filters they are using. One of the really powerful things that can happen in BIoEra is that changes in one object can result in changes in other objects as well. For instance in Cygnet as you lower the frequency range you are working the band also narrows. It may be that they also change filter order too. The Cygnet designs are not available for view or modification so it is not possible to say exactly they use.

I suspect that Sig might say is something like this (and I beg forgiveness for putting words in some one else's mouth)

I have heard others suggest this as well

So here is the made up quote

If you are down to signals at .5 hz a longer delay may not be as big a factor. As the wave form itself takes 2 seconds to cycle. Measuring a 30hz signal with that delay would of course be absurd.

BioEra does not give a delay graph like BioEra does but here are the numbers I found when setting the eeg neuroamp as the source device with a 0 - 0.5 hz filter.

All filters 3rd order in order to get a decent frequency roll off.

Butterworth delay of 1.1 seconds

Chebyshev, delay of 1.46 second

Besel Delay of .68 seconds but the frequency roll of extends to 1.5 hz.

I just downloaded the BioEx designs.

The newest one, multiple inhibit one reward uses a second order elliptic filter. with a 0 to 3 hz range Elliptic filters are not available in BioEra at this time.

The delay is just over 30 seconds at the lowest end (about .5 hz). The delay is hard to see on the graph in BE but looks to be a second or so just past .5 and slowly going up to about 2 seconds by the end of the band.

Approximately the same delay seems to occur with a 0 to .5 hz filter with the largest delay coming from 0 to .05. Again about 30 seconds.

The frequency distribution is quite broad, the peak is around 3hz with very shallow roll off.

This may be more info than you wanted but I figured I'd be thorough

georgemartinnorthstarneurofeedback

www.northstarneurofeedback.com

Rene,

At 0-0.1 Hz as a reward band (which BE does just fine), you have some problems caused by the physics of digital signal processing (which perhaps the Othmers have repealed):

1. An elliptic filter, 1st order, which only produces a delay of 150 ms., isn't very accurate. In fact, it passes 200% of the signal around the area they want to measure but 100% of all activity up as high as nearly 2 Hz. Not exactly training 0-0.1 Hz. Raising the filter order to 2 provides a little more specific and accurate filter--but the time delay goes up around 1.5 seconds and above.

2. The Butterworth filter the Othmers usually use, in its fastest form (1st order) does provide a fairly accurate reading of the band they want to train, but the delay ranges from about 1/2 second to about 2.25 seconds.

In other words, in order to actually SEE the frequency they say they are training, they have to set up the filters so they literally give the feedback between one and a half and two and a half seconds AFTER the even happens in the brain. That's the equivalent of trying to train a puppy by giving him a treat about 10 minutes after he does something you tell him to do.

I leave it to you to imagine what kind of accuracy and delay are provided by asking a filter to measure a band that is 2/100 of a Hz (the above are 50/100 Hz wide).

is more versed in BioEra, which is the real software under Cygnet, so perhaps he can tell us that I'm completely off base here and that there are filters or other devices in BioEra that will indeed allow a fast and accurate measuring of signals in this range.

Otherwise, we can all find out how effective this will be--and I'm sure it will represent yet another revolutionary improvement in results--by buying the Othmers' software, which I understand is quite expensive and does essentially this one thing.

Pete

On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 12:41 PM, renekay97213 <rene.campagnaprovidence (DOT) org> wrote:

My previous provider was Othmer based and she was using one channel bipolar training, multiple inhibits, with a reward of 0.0--0.1 QDS will support 0.0 --0.1 and even lower, but Bioexplorer will not go down lower than 0.0 -- 0.1 I received a recent EEG info e newsletter and it sounds like the Othmers are going lower with the Cygnet--- as low as O.O -- O.05 and 0.0 ---0.02. As usual in the field of neurofeedback, there are many opinions about whether or not going that low is effective or necessary, but it is the direction that EEG Info seems to be going.

..-- Van Deusenpvdtlcgmail http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

--- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! ---

July 11, 2008

What do you mean by balance below? Also recent Othmer protocols now suggest that interhemispheric training be restricted to T3 T4. and that other sites are trained by intrahemispheric reference to the appropriate T3 or T4 site.

Mark

Re: Re: Othmer low reward

Rene,

I asked Sig Othmer at iSNR last year if he could tell me what type of filters he used in their low frequency training. He could not but did suggest I download the designs from the eeg info site. Those designs are free and apparently still available. You could look to see what type of filtering they used there.

In terms of Cygnet I am unsure of what filters they are using. One of the really powerful things that can happen in BIoEra is that changes in one object can result in changes in other objects as well. For instance in Cygnet as you lower the frequency range you are working the band also narrows. It may be that they also change filter order too. The Cygnet designs are not available for view or modification so it is not possible to say exactly they use.

I suspect that Sig might say is something like this (and I beg forgiveness for putting words in some one else's mouth)

I have heard others suggest this as well

So here is the made up quote

If you are down to signals at .5 hz a longer delay may not be as big a factor. As the wave form itself takes 2 seconds to cycle. Measuring a 30hz signal with that delay would of course be absurd.

BioEra does not give a delay graph like BioEra does but here are the numbers I found when setting the eeg neuroamp as the source device with a 0 - 0.5 hz filter.

All filters 3rd order in order to get a decent frequency roll off.

Butterworth delay of 1.1 seconds

Chebyshev, delay of 1.46 second

Besel Delay of .68 seconds but the frequency roll of extends to 1.5 hz.

I just downloaded the BioEx designs.

The newest one, multiple inhibit one reward uses a second order elliptic filter. with a 0 to 3 hz range Elliptic filters are not available in BioEra at this time.

The delay is just over 30 seconds at the lowest end (about .5 hz). The delay is hard to see on the graph in BE but looks to be a second or so just past .5 and slowly going up to about 2 seconds by the end of the band.

Approximately the same delay seems to occur with a 0 to .5 hz filter with the largest delay coming from 0 to .05. Again about 30 seconds.

The frequency distribution is quite broad, the peak is around 3hz with very shallow roll off.

This may be more info than you wanted but I figured I'd be thorough

georgemartinnorthstarneurofeedback

www.northstarneurofeedback.com

Rene,

At 0-0.1 Hz as a reward band (which BE does just fine), you have some problems caused by the physics of digital signal processing (which perhaps the Othmers have repealed):

1. An elliptic filter, 1st order, which only produces a delay of 150 ms., isn't very accurate. In fact, it passes 200% of the signal around the area they want to measure but 100% of all activity up as high as nearly 2 Hz. Not exactly training 0-0.1 Hz. Raising the filter order to 2 provides a little more specific and accurate filter--but the time delay goes up around 1.5 seconds and above.

2. The Butterworth filter the Othmers usually use, in its fastest form (1st order) does provide a fairly accurate reading of the band they want to train, but the delay ranges from about 1/2 second to about 2.25 seconds.

In other words, in order to actually SEE the frequency they say they are training, they have to set up the filters so they literally give the feedback between one and a half and two and a half seconds AFTER the even happens in the brain. That's the equivalent of trying to train a puppy by giving him a treat about 10 minutes after he does something you tell him to do.

I leave it to you to imagine what kind of accuracy and delay are provided by asking a filter to measure a band that is 2/100 of a Hz (the above are 50/100 Hz wide).

is more versed in BioEra, which is the real software under Cygnet, so perhaps he can tell us that I'm completely off base here and that there are filters or other devices in BioEra that will indeed allow a fast and accurate measuring of signals in this range.

Otherwise, we can all find out how effective this will be--and I'm sure it will represent yet another revolutionary improvement in results--by buying the Othmers' software, which I understand is quite expensive and does essentially this one thing.

Pete

On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 12:41 PM, renekay97213 <rene.campagnaprovidence (DOT) org> wrote:

My previous provider was Othmer based and she was using one channel bipolar training, multiple inhibits, with a reward of 0.0--0.1 QDS will support 0.0 --0.1 and even lower, but Bioexplorer will not go down lower than 0.0 -- 0.1 I received a recent EEG info e newsletter and it sounds like the Othmers are going lower with the Cygnet--- as low as O.O -- O.05 and 0.0 ---0.02. As usual in the field of neurofeedback, there are many opinions about whether or not going that low is effective or necessary, but it is the direction that EEG Info seems to be going.

..-- Van Deusenpvdtlcgmail http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

--- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! ---

July 11, 2008

What do you mean by balance below? Also recent Othmer protocols now suggest that interhemispheric training be restricted to T3 T4. and that other sites are trained by intrahemispheric reference to the appropriate T3 or T4 site.

Mark

Re: Re: Othmer low reward

Rene,

I asked Sig Othmer at iSNR last year if he could tell me what type of filters he used in their low frequency training. He could not but did suggest I download the designs from the eeg info site. Those designs are free and apparently still available. You could look to see what type of filtering they used there.

In terms of Cygnet I am unsure of what filters they are using. One of the really powerful things that can happen in BIoEra is that changes in one object can result in changes in other objects as well. For instance in Cygnet as you lower the frequency range you are working the band also narrows. It may be that they also change filter order too. The Cygnet designs are not available for view or modification so it is not possible to say exactly they use.

I suspect that Sig might say is something like this (and I beg forgiveness for putting words in some one else's mouth)

I have heard others suggest this as well

So here is the made up quote

If you are down to signals at .5 hz a longer delay may not be as big a factor. As the wave form itself takes 2 seconds to cycle. Measuring a 30hz signal with that delay would of course be absurd.

BioEra does not give a delay graph like BioEra does but here are the numbers I found when setting the eeg neuroamp as the source device with a 0 - 0.5 hz filter.

All filters 3rd order in order to get a decent frequency roll off.

Butterworth delay of 1.1 seconds

Chebyshev, delay of 1.46 second

Besel Delay of .68 seconds but the frequency roll of extends to 1.5 hz.

I just downloaded the BioEx designs.

The newest one, multiple inhibit one reward uses a second order elliptic filter. with a 0 to 3 hz range Elliptic filters are not available in BioEra at this time.

The delay is just over 30 seconds at the lowest end (about .5 hz). The delay is hard to see on the graph in BE but looks to be a second or so just past .5 and slowly going up to about 2 seconds by the end of the band.

Approximately the same delay seems to occur with a 0 to .5 hz filter with the largest delay coming from 0 to .05. Again about 30 seconds.

The frequency distribution is quite broad, the peak is around 3hz with very shallow roll off.

This may be more info than you wanted but I figured I'd be thorough

georgemartinnorthstarneurofeedback

www.northstarneurofeedback.com

Rene,

At 0-0.1 Hz as a reward band (which BE does just fine), you have some problems caused by the physics of digital signal processing (which perhaps the Othmers have repealed):

1. An elliptic filter, 1st order, which only produces a delay of 150 ms., isn't very accurate. In fact, it passes 200% of the signal around the area they want to measure but 100% of all activity up as high as nearly 2 Hz. Not exactly training 0-0.1 Hz. Raising the filter order to 2 provides a little more specific and accurate filter--but the time delay goes up around 1.5 seconds and above.

2. The Butterworth filter the Othmers usually use, in its fastest form (1st order) does provide a fairly accurate reading of the band they want to train, but the delay ranges from about 1/2 second to about 2.25 seconds.

In other words, in order to actually SEE the frequency they say they are training, they have to set up the filters so they literally give the feedback between one and a half and two and a half seconds AFTER the even happens in the brain. That's the equivalent of trying to train a puppy by giving him a treat about 10 minutes after he does something you tell him to do.

I leave it to you to imagine what kind of accuracy and delay are provided by asking a filter to measure a band that is 2/100 of a Hz (the above are 50/100 Hz wide).

is more versed in BioEra, which is the real software under Cygnet, so perhaps he can tell us that I'm completely off base here and that there are filters or other devices in BioEra that will indeed allow a fast and accurate measuring of signals in this range.

Otherwise, we can all find out how effective this will be--and I'm sure it will represent yet another revolutionary improvement in results--by buying the Othmers' software, which I understand is quite expensive and does essentially this one thing.

Pete

On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 12:41 PM, renekay97213 <rene.campagnaprovidence (DOT) org> wrote:

My previous provider was Othmer based and she was using one channel bipolar training, multiple inhibits, with a reward of 0.0--0.1 QDS will support 0.0 --0.1 and even lower, but Bioexplorer will not go down lower than 0.0 -- 0.1 I received a recent EEG info e newsletter and it sounds like the Othmers are going lower with the Cygnet--- as low as O.O -- O.05 and 0.0 ---0.02. As usual in the field of neurofeedback, there are many opinions about whether or not going that low is effective or necessary, but it is the direction that EEG Info seems to be going.

..-- Van Deusenpvdtlcgmail http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

--- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! ---

July 11, 2008

Mark,An entropy algorithm compares the amplitude of multiple bands. Higher scores means more similarities. Any frequency distribution with a peak or spike (generally but not always slow waves) has lower entropy than a flatter distribution. An entropy value of 100 would mean all bins at the same amplitude, clearly not optimal. An entropy value of 1 would mean one single peak and no amplitude elsewhere, clearly not optimal either.There is a a body of work in anesthesia, and consciousness research that focuses on entropy. I have some references if you would like.There are 3 threads that come together. They are anesthesia research, consciousness research (In particular Edelman and Tononi) and microstate research by Koenig , Lehmann and E Roy ,Interestingly this information is quite consistent with the findings about cortical arousal in the recent "Structural Core" research.I was marginally aware of the Othmer's shift to intrahemispheric training along with T3T4. Interestingly the reference of other sites to the same side T site brings them back much closer to the way Margaret Ayer's trained. Her training was BiPolar placement the either Frontal, Central, Occipital, or Parietal sites reference to the same side temporal site.georgemartin@...www.northstarneurofeedback.com What do you mean by balance below? Also recent Othmer protocols now suggest that interhemispheric training be restricted to T3 T4. and that other sites are trained by intrahemispheric reference to the appropriate T3 or T4 site. Mark Re: Re: Othmer low reward Rene, I asked Sig Othmer at iSNR last year if he could tell me what type of filters he used in their low frequency training. He could not but did suggest I download the designs from the eeg info site. Those designs are free and apparently still available. You could look to see what type of filtering they used there. In terms of Cygnet I am unsure of what filters they are using. One of the really powerful things that can happen in BIoEra is that changes in one object can result in changes in other objects as well. For instance in Cygnet as you lower the frequency range you are working the band also narrows. It may be that they also change filter order too. The Cygnet designs are not available for view or modification so it is not possible to say exactly they use. I suspect that Sig might say is something like this (and I beg forgiveness for putting words in some one else's mouth) I have heard others suggest this as well So here is the made up quote If you are down to signals at .5 hz a longer delay may not be as big a factor. As the wave form itself takes 2 seconds to cycle. Measuring a 30hz signal with that delay would of course be absurd. BioEra does not give a delay graph like BioEra does but here are the numbers I found when setting the eeg neuroamp as the source device with a 0 - 0.5 hz filter. All filters 3rd order in order to get a decent frequency roll off. Butterworth delay of 1.1 seconds Chebyshev, delay of 1.46 second Besel Delay of .68 seconds but the frequency roll of extends to 1.5 hz. I just downloaded the BioEx designs. The newest one, multiple inhibit one reward uses a second order elliptic filter. with a 0 to 3 hz range Elliptic filters are not available in BioEra at this time. The delay is just over 30 seconds at the lowest end (about .5 hz). The delay is hard to see on the graph in BE but looks to be a second or so just past .5 and slowly going up to about 2 seconds by the end of the band. Approximately the same delay seems to occur with a 0 to .5 hz filter with the largest delay coming from 0 to .05. Again about 30 seconds. The frequency distribution is quite broad, the peak is around 3hz with very shallow roll off. This may be more info than you wanted but I figured I'd be thorough georgemartinnorthstarneurofeedback www.northstarneurofeedback.com Rene, At 0-0.1 Hz as a reward band (which BE does just fine), you have some problems caused by the physics of digital signal processing (which perhaps the Othmers have repealed): 1. An elliptic filter, 1st order, which only produces a delay of 150 ms., isn't very accurate. In fact, it passes 200% of the signal around the area they want to measure but 100% of all activity up as high as nearly 2 Hz. Not exactly training 0-0.1 Hz. Raising the filter order to 2 provides a little more specific and accurate filter--but the time delay goes up around 1.5 seconds and above. 2. The Butterworth filter the Othmers usually use, in its fastest form (1st order) does provide a fairly accurate reading of the band they want to train, but the delay ranges from about 1/2 second to about 2.25 seconds. In other words, in order to actually SEE the frequency they say they are training, they have to set up the filters so they literally give the feedback between one and a half and two and a half seconds AFTER the even happens in the brain. That's the equivalent of trying to train a puppy by giving him a treat about 10 minutes after he does something you tell him to do. I leave it to you to imagine what kind of accuracy and delay are provided by asking a filter to measure a band that is 2/100 of a Hz (the above are 50/100 Hz wide). is more versed in BioEra, which is the real software under Cygnet, so perhaps he can tell us that I'm completely off base here and that there are filters or other devices in BioEra that will indeed allow a fast and accurate measuring of signals in this range. Otherwise, we can all find out how effective this will be--and I'm sure it will represent yet another revolutionary improvement in results--by buying the Othmers' software, which I understand is quite expensive and does essentially this one thing. Pete On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 12:41 PM, renekay97213 <rene.campagnaprovidence (DOT) org> wrote: My previous provider was Othmer based and she was using one channel bipolar training, multiple inhibits, with a reward of 0.0--0.1 QDS will support 0.0 --0.1 and even lower, but Bioexplorer will not go down lower than 0.0 -- 0.1 I received a recent EEG info e newsletter and it sounds like the Othmers are going lower with the Cygnet--- as low as O.O -- O.05 and 0.0 ---0.02. As usual in the field of neurofeedback, there are many opinions about whether or not going that low is effective or necessary, but it is the direction that EEG Info seems to be going. .-- Van Deusenpvdtlcgmail http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc. --- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! --- --- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! ---

--- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! ---

July 11, 2008

Mark,An entropy algorithm compares the amplitude of multiple bands. Higher scores means more similarities. Any frequency distribution with a peak or spike (generally but not always slow waves) has lower entropy than a flatter distribution. An entropy value of 100 would mean all bins at the same amplitude, clearly not optimal. An entropy value of 1 would mean one single peak and no amplitude elsewhere, clearly not optimal either.There is a a body of work in anesthesia, and consciousness research that focuses on entropy. I have some references if you would like.There are 3 threads that come together. They are anesthesia research, consciousness research (In particular Edelman and Tononi) and microstate research by Koenig , Lehmann and E Roy ,Interestingly this information is quite consistent with the findings about cortical arousal in the recent "Structural Core" research.I was marginally aware of the Othmer's shift to intrahemispheric training along with T3T4. Interestingly the reference of other sites to the same side T site brings them back much closer to the way Margaret Ayer's trained. Her training was BiPolar placement the either Frontal, Central, Occipital, or Parietal sites reference to the same side temporal site.georgemartin@...www.northstarneurofeedback.com What do you mean by balance below? Also recent Othmer protocols now suggest that interhemispheric training be restricted to T3 T4. and that other sites are trained by intrahemispheric reference to the appropriate T3 or T4 site. Mark Re: Re: Othmer low reward Rene, I asked Sig Othmer at iSNR last year if he could tell me what type of filters he used in their low frequency training. He could not but did suggest I download the designs from the eeg info site. Those designs are free and apparently still available. You could look to see what type of filtering they used there. In terms of Cygnet I am unsure of what filters they are using. One of the really powerful things that can happen in BIoEra is that changes in one object can result in changes in other objects as well. For instance in Cygnet as you lower the frequency range you are working the band also narrows. It may be that they also change filter order too. The Cygnet designs are not available for view or modification so it is not possible to say exactly they use. I suspect that Sig might say is something like this (and I beg forgiveness for putting words in some one else's mouth) I have heard others suggest this as well So here is the made up quote If you are down to signals at .5 hz a longer delay may not be as big a factor. As the wave form itself takes 2 seconds to cycle. Measuring a 30hz signal with that delay would of course be absurd. BioEra does not give a delay graph like BioEra does but here are the numbers I found when setting the eeg neuroamp as the source device with a 0 - 0.5 hz filter. All filters 3rd order in order to get a decent frequency roll off. Butterworth delay of 1.1 seconds Chebyshev, delay of 1.46 second Besel Delay of .68 seconds but the frequency roll of extends to 1.5 hz. I just downloaded the BioEx designs. The newest one, multiple inhibit one reward uses a second order elliptic filter. with a 0 to 3 hz range Elliptic filters are not available in BioEra at this time. The delay is just over 30 seconds at the lowest end (about .5 hz). The delay is hard to see on the graph in BE but looks to be a second or so just past .5 and slowly going up to about 2 seconds by the end of the band. Approximately the same delay seems to occur with a 0 to .5 hz filter with the largest delay coming from 0 to .05. Again about 30 seconds. The frequency distribution is quite broad, the peak is around 3hz with very shallow roll off. This may be more info than you wanted but I figured I'd be thorough georgemartinnorthstarneurofeedback www.northstarneurofeedback.com Rene, At 0-0.1 Hz as a reward band (which BE does just fine), you have some problems caused by the physics of digital signal processing (which perhaps the Othmers have repealed): 1. An elliptic filter, 1st order, which only produces a delay of 150 ms., isn't very accurate. In fact, it passes 200% of the signal around the area they want to measure but 100% of all activity up as high as nearly 2 Hz. Not exactly training 0-0.1 Hz. Raising the filter order to 2 provides a little more specific and accurate filter--but the time delay goes up around 1.5 seconds and above. 2. The Butterworth filter the Othmers usually use, in its fastest form (1st order) does provide a fairly accurate reading of the band they want to train, but the delay ranges from about 1/2 second to about 2.25 seconds. In other words, in order to actually SEE the frequency they say they are training, they have to set up the filters so they literally give the feedback between one and a half and two and a half seconds AFTER the even happens in the brain. That's the equivalent of trying to train a puppy by giving him a treat about 10 minutes after he does something you tell him to do. I leave it to you to imagine what kind of accuracy and delay are provided by asking a filter to measure a band that is 2/100 of a Hz (the above are 50/100 Hz wide). is more versed in BioEra, which is the real software under Cygnet, so perhaps he can tell us that I'm completely off base here and that there are filters or other devices in BioEra that will indeed allow a fast and accurate measuring of signals in this range. Otherwise, we can all find out how effective this will be--and I'm sure it will represent yet another revolutionary improvement in results--by buying the Othmers' software, which I understand is quite expensive and does essentially this one thing. Pete On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 12:41 PM, renekay97213 <rene.campagnaprovidence (DOT) org> wrote: My previous provider was Othmer based and she was using one channel bipolar training, multiple inhibits, with a reward of 0.0--0.1 QDS will support 0.0 --0.1 and even lower, but Bioexplorer will not go down lower than 0.0 -- 0.1 I received a recent EEG info e newsletter and it sounds like the Othmers are going lower with the Cygnet--- as low as O.O -- O.05 and 0.0 ---0.02. As usual in the field of neurofeedback, there are many opinions about whether or not going that low is effective or necessary, but it is the direction that EEG Info seems to be going. .-- Van Deusenpvdtlcgmail http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc. --- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! --- --- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! ---

--- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! ---

July 11, 2008

Maybe some day I will understand the technical part of this, but I do

know that my son did very well with the low frequency training. He

also did well with Pete's midline squash.

Rene

:

>

> Rene,

>

> I asked Sig Othmer at iSNR last year if he could tell me what type

of

> filters he used in their low frequency training. He could not but

> did suggest I download the designs from the eeg info site. Those

> designs are free and apparently still available. You could look

to

> see what type of filtering they used there.

>

> In terms of Cygnet I am unsure of what filters they are using.

One

> of the really powerful things that can happen in BIoEra is that

> changes in one object can result in changes in other objects as

> well. For instance in Cygnet as you lower the frequency range you

> are working the band also narrows. It may be that they also

change

> filter order too. The Cygnet designs are not available for view

or

> modification so it is not possible to say exactly they use.

>

> I suspect that Sig might say is something like this (and I beg

> forgiveness for putting words in some one else's mouth)

> I have heard others suggest this as well

> So here is the made up quote

>

> If you are down to signals at .5 hz a longer delay may not be as

big

> a factor. As the wave form itself takes 2 seconds to cycle.

> Measuring a 30hz signal with that delay would of course be absurd.

>

> BioEra does not give a delay graph like BioEra does but here are

the

> numbers I found when setting the eeg neuroamp as the source device

> with a 0 - 0.5 hz filter.

>

> All filters 3rd order in order to get a decent frequency roll off.

>

> Butterworth delay of 1.1 seconds

> Chebyshev, delay of 1.46 second

> Besel Delay of .68 seconds but the frequency roll of

> extends to 1.5 hz.

>

> I just downloaded the BioEx designs.

>

> The newest one, multiple inhibit one reward uses a second order

> elliptic filter. with a 0 to 3 hz range Elliptic filters are

not

> available in BioEra at this time.

> The delay is just over 30 seconds at the lowest end (about .5

hz).

> The delay is hard to see on the graph in BE but looks to be a

second

> or so just past .5 and slowly going up to about 2 seconds by the

end

> of the band.

>

> Approximately the same delay seems to occur with a 0 to .5 hz

filter

> with the largest delay coming from 0 to .05. Again about 30

seconds.

>

> The frequency distribution is quite broad, the peak is around 3hz

> with very shallow roll off.

>

> This may be more info than you wanted but I figured I'd be thorough

>

> georgemartin@...

> www.northstarneurofeedback.com

>

> > Rene,

> >

> > At 0-0.1 Hz as a reward band (which BE does just fine), you have

> > some problems caused by the physics of digital signal processing

> > (which perhaps the Othmers have repealed):

> > 1. An elliptic filter, 1st order, which only produces a delay of

> > 150 ms., isn't very accurate. In fact, it passes 200% of the

> > signal around the area they want to measure but 100% of all

> > activity up as high as nearly 2 Hz. Not exactly training 0-0.1

> > Hz. Raising the filter order to 2 provides a little more

specific

> > and accurate filter--but the time delay goes up around 1.5

seconds

> > and above.

> > 2. The Butterworth filter the Othmers usually use, in its

fastest

> > form (1st order) does provide a fairly accurate reading of the

band

> > they want to train, but the delay ranges from about 1/2 second

to

> > about 2.25 seconds.

> > In other words, in order to actually SEE the frequency they say

> > they are training, they have to set up the filters so they

> > literally give the feedback between one and a half and two and a

> > half seconds AFTER the even happens in the brain. That's the

> > equivalent of trying to train a puppy by giving him a treat

about

> > 10 minutes after he does something you tell him to do.

> >

> > I leave it to you to imagine what kind of accuracy and delay are

> > provided by asking a filter to measure a band that is 2/100 of a

Hz

> > (the above are 50/100 Hz wide).

> >

> > is more versed in BioEra, which is the real software

under

> > Cygnet, so perhaps he can tell us that I'm completely off base

here

> > and that there are filters or other devices in BioEra that will

> > indeed allow a fast and accurate measuring of signals in this

range.

> >

> > Otherwise, we can all find out how effective this will be--and

I'm

> > sure it will represent yet another revolutionary improvement in

> > results--by buying the Othmers' software, which I understand is

> > quite expensive and does essentially this one thing.

> >

> > Pete

> >

> > On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 12:41 PM, renekay97213

> > wrote:

> > My previous provider was Othmer based and she was using one

> > channel bipolar training, multiple inhibits, with a reward of 0.0-

-

> > 0.1 QDS will support 0.0 --0.1 and even lower, but Bioexplorer

will

> > not go down lower than 0.0 -- 0.1

> >

> > I received a recent EEG info e newsletter and it sounds like the

> > Othmers are going lower with the Cygnet--- as low as O.O -- O.05

and

> > 0.0 ---0.02. As usual in the field of neurofeedback, there are

many

> > opinions about whether or not going that low is effective or

> > necessary, but it is the direction that EEG Info seems to be

going.

> >

> > .

> >

> > --

> > Van Deusen

> > pvdtlc@...

> > http://www.brain-trainer.com

> > 305/433-3160

> > The Learning Curve, Inc.

>

> --- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! --

http://www.usfamily.net/mkt-freepromo.html ---

>

July 11, 2008

Maybe some day I will understand the technical part of this, but I do

know that my son did very well with the low frequency training. He

also did well with Pete's midline squash.

Rene

:

>

> Rene,

>

> I asked Sig Othmer at iSNR last year if he could tell me what type

of

> filters he used in their low frequency training. He could not but

> did suggest I download the designs from the eeg info site. Those

> designs are free and apparently still available. You could look

to

> see what type of filtering they used there.

>

> In terms of Cygnet I am unsure of what filters they are using.

One

> of the really powerful things that can happen in BIoEra is that

> changes in one object can result in changes in other objects as

> well. For instance in Cygnet as you lower the frequency range you

> are working the band also narrows. It may be that they also

change

> filter order too. The Cygnet designs are not available for view

or

> modification so it is not possible to say exactly they use.

>

> I suspect that Sig might say is something like this (and I beg

> forgiveness for putting words in some one else's mouth)

> I have heard others suggest this as well

> So here is the made up quote

>

> If you are down to signals at .5 hz a longer delay may not be as

big

> a factor. As the wave form itself takes 2 seconds to cycle.

> Measuring a 30hz signal with that delay would of course be absurd.

>

> BioEra does not give a delay graph like BioEra does but here are

the

> numbers I found when setting the eeg neuroamp as the source device

> with a 0 - 0.5 hz filter.

>

> All filters 3rd order in order to get a decent frequency roll off.

>

> Butterworth delay of 1.1 seconds

> Chebyshev, delay of 1.46 second

> Besel Delay of .68 seconds but the frequency roll of

> extends to 1.5 hz.

>

> I just downloaded the BioEx designs.

>

> The newest one, multiple inhibit one reward uses a second order

> elliptic filter. with a 0 to 3 hz range Elliptic filters are

not

> available in BioEra at this time.

> The delay is just over 30 seconds at the lowest end (about .5

hz).

> The delay is hard to see on the graph in BE but looks to be a

second

> or so just past .5 and slowly going up to about 2 seconds by the

end

> of the band.

>

> Approximately the same delay seems to occur with a 0 to .5 hz

filter

> with the largest delay coming from 0 to .05. Again about 30

seconds.

>

> The frequency distribution is quite broad, the peak is around 3hz

> with very shallow roll off.

>

> This may be more info than you wanted but I figured I'd be thorough

>

> georgemartin@...

> www.northstarneurofeedback.com

>

> > Rene,

> >

> > At 0-0.1 Hz as a reward band (which BE does just fine), you have

> > some problems caused by the physics of digital signal processing

> > (which perhaps the Othmers have repealed):

> > 1. An elliptic filter, 1st order, which only produces a delay of

> > 150 ms., isn't very accurate. In fact, it passes 200% of the

> > signal around the area they want to measure but 100% of all

> > activity up as high as nearly 2 Hz. Not exactly training 0-0.1

> > Hz. Raising the filter order to 2 provides a little more

specific

> > and accurate filter--but the time delay goes up around 1.5

seconds

> > and above.

> > 2. The Butterworth filter the Othmers usually use, in its

fastest

> > form (1st order) does provide a fairly accurate reading of the

band

> > they want to train, but the delay ranges from about 1/2 second

to

> > about 2.25 seconds.

> > In other words, in order to actually SEE the frequency they say

> > they are training, they have to set up the filters so they

> > literally give the feedback between one and a half and two and a

> > half seconds AFTER the even happens in the brain. That's the

> > equivalent of trying to train a puppy by giving him a treat

about

> > 10 minutes after he does something you tell him to do.

> >

> > I leave it to you to imagine what kind of accuracy and delay are

> > provided by asking a filter to measure a band that is 2/100 of a

Hz

> > (the above are 50/100 Hz wide).

> >

> > is more versed in BioEra, which is the real software

under

> > Cygnet, so perhaps he can tell us that I'm completely off base

here

> > and that there are filters or other devices in BioEra that will

> > indeed allow a fast and accurate measuring of signals in this

range.

> >

> > Otherwise, we can all find out how effective this will be--and

I'm

> > sure it will represent yet another revolutionary improvement in

> > results--by buying the Othmers' software, which I understand is

> > quite expensive and does essentially this one thing.

> >

> > Pete

> >

> > On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 12:41 PM, renekay97213

> > wrote:

> > My previous provider was Othmer based and she was using one

> > channel bipolar training, multiple inhibits, with a reward of 0.0-

-

> > 0.1 QDS will support 0.0 --0.1 and even lower, but Bioexplorer

will

> > not go down lower than 0.0 -- 0.1

> >

> > I received a recent EEG info e newsletter and it sounds like the

> > Othmers are going lower with the Cygnet--- as low as O.O -- O.05

and

> > 0.0 ---0.02. As usual in the field of neurofeedback, there are

many

> > opinions about whether or not going that low is effective or

> > necessary, but it is the direction that EEG Info seems to be

going.

> >

> > .

> >

> > --

> > Van Deusen

> > pvdtlc@...

> > http://www.brain-trainer.com

> > 305/433-3160

> > The Learning Curve, Inc.

>

> --- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! --

http://www.usfamily.net/mkt-freepromo.html ---

>

July 11, 2008

I hadn't known of Margaret Ayres protocols so some convergence there. I've been thinking that there needs to be some approach that works with the dominat frequency in the EEg spectrum. Does entropy have some bearing on this?

Mark

Re: Re: Othmer low reward

Rene,

I asked Sig Othmer at iSNR last year if he could tell me what type of filters he used in their low frequency training. He could not but did suggest I download the designs from the eeg info site. Those designs are free and apparently still available. You could look to see what type of filtering they used there.

In terms of Cygnet I am unsure of what filters they are using. One of the really powerful things that can happen in BIoEra is that changes in one object can result in changes in other objects as well. For instance in Cygnet as you lower the frequency range you are working the band also narrows. It may be that they also change filter order too. The Cygnet designs are not available for view or modification so it is not possible to say exactly they use.

I suspect that Sig might say is something like this (and I beg forgiveness for putting words in some one else's mouth)

I have heard others suggest this as well

So here is the made up quote

If you are down to signals at .5 hz a longer delay may not be as big a factor. As the wave form itself takes 2 seconds to cycle. Measuring a 30hz signal with that delay would of course be absurd.

BioEra does not give a delay graph like BioEra does but here are the numbers I found when setting the eeg neuroamp as the source device with a 0 - 0.5 hz filter.

All filters 3rd order in order to get a decent frequency roll off.

Butterworth delay of 1.1 seconds

Chebyshev, delay of 1.46 second

Besel Delay of .68 seconds but the frequency roll of extends to 1.5 hz.

I just downloaded the BioEx designs.

The newest one, multiple inhibit one reward uses a second order elliptic filter. with a 0 to 3 hz range Elliptic filters are not available in BioEra at this time.

The delay is just over 30 seconds at the lowest end (about .5 hz). The delay is hard to see on the graph in BE but looks to be a second or so just past .5 and slowly going up to about 2 seconds by the end of the band.

Approximately the same delay seems to occur with a 0 to .5 hz filter with the largest delay coming from 0 to .05. Again about 30 seconds.

The frequency distribution is quite broad, the peak is around 3hz with very shallow roll off.

This may be more info than you wanted but I figured I'd be thorough

georgemartinnorthstarneurofeedback

www.northstarneurofeedback.com

Rene,

At 0-0.1 Hz as a reward band (which BE does just fine), you have some problems caused by the physics of digital signal processing (which perhaps the Othmers have repealed):

1. An elliptic filter, 1st order, which only produces a delay of 150 ms., isn't very accurate. In fact, it passes 200% of the signal around the area they want to measure but 100% of all activity up as high as nearly 2 Hz. Not exactly training 0-0.1 Hz. Raising the filter order to 2 provides a little more specific and accurate filter--but the time delay goes up around 1.5 seconds and above.

2. The Butterworth filter the Othmers usually use, in its fastest form (1st order) does provide a fairly accurate reading of the band they want to train, but the delay ranges from about 1/2 second to about 2.25 seconds.

In other words, in order to actually SEE the frequency they say they are training, they have to set up the filters so they literally give the feedback between one and a half and two and a half seconds AFTER the even happens in the brain. That's the equivalent of trying to train a puppy by giving him a treat about 10 minutes after he does something you tell him to do.

I leave it to you to imagine what kind of accuracy and delay are provided by asking a filter to measure a band that is 2/100 of a Hz (the above are 50/100 Hz wide).

is more versed in BioEra, which is the real software under Cygnet, so perhaps he can tell us that I'm completely off base here and that there are filters or other devices in BioEra that will indeed allow a fast and accurate measuring of signals in this range.

Otherwise, we can all find out how effective this will be--and I'm sure it will represent yet another revolutionary improvement in results--by buying the Othmers' software, which I understand is quite expensive and does essentially this one thing.

Pete

On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 12:41 PM, renekay97213 <rene.campagnaprovidence (DOT) org> wrote:

My previous provider was Othmer based and she was using one channel bipolar training, multiple inhibits, with a reward of 0.0--0.1 QDS will support 0.0 --0.1 and even lower, but Bioexplorer will not go down lower than 0.0 -- 0.1 I received a recent EEG info e newsletter and it sounds like the Othmers are going lower with the Cygnet--- as low as O.O -- O.05 and 0.0 ---0.02. As usual in the field of neurofeedback, there are many opinions about whether or not going that low is effective or necessary, but it is the direction that EEG Info seems to be going.

..-- Van Deusenpvdtlcgmail http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

--- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! ---

July 11, 2008

If it works it works. I'm not sure anyone has a convincing reason for why it might work.

Mark

Re: Othmer low reward

Maybe some day I will understand the technical part of this, but I do know that my son did very well with the low frequency training. He also did well with Pete's midline squash.Rene:>> Rene,> > I asked Sig Othmer at iSNR last year if he could tell me what type of > filters he used in their low frequency training. He could not but > did suggest I download the designs from the eeg info site. Those > designs are free and apparently still available. You could look to > see what type of filtering they used there.> > In terms of Cygnet I am unsure of what filters they are using. One > of the really powerful things that can happen in BIoEra is that > changes in one object can result in changes in other objects as > well. For instance in Cygnet as you lower the frequency range you > are working the band also narrows. It may be that they also change > filter order too. The Cygnet designs are not available for view or > modification so it is not possible to say exactly they use.> > I suspect that Sig might say is something like this (and I beg > forgiveness for putting words in some one else's mouth)> I have heard others suggest this as well> So here is the made up quote> > If you are down to signals at .5 hz a longer delay may not be as big > a factor. As the wave form itself takes 2 seconds to cycle. > Measuring a 30hz signal with that delay would of course be absurd.> > BioEra does not give a delay graph like BioEra does but here are the > numbers I found when setting the eeg neuroamp as the source device > with a 0 - 0.5 hz filter.> > All filters 3rd order in order to get a decent frequency roll off.> > Butterworth delay of 1.1 seconds> Chebyshev, delay of 1.46 second> Besel Delay of .68 seconds but the frequency roll of > extends to 1.5 hz.> > I just downloaded the BioEx designs.> > The newest one, multiple inhibit one reward uses a second order > elliptic filter. with a 0 to 3 hz range Elliptic filters are not > available in BioEra at this time.> The delay is just over 30 seconds at the lowest end (about .5 hz). > The delay is hard to see on the graph in BE but looks to be a second > or so just past .5 and slowly going up to about 2 seconds by the end > of the band.> > Approximately the same delay seems to occur with a 0 to .5 hz filter > with the largest delay coming from 0 to .05. Again about 30 seconds.> > The frequency distribution is quite broad, the peak is around 3hz > with very shallow roll off.> > This may be more info than you wanted but I figured I'd be thorough> > > > > > > > > > georgemartin@...> www.northstarneurofeedback.com> > > > > Rene,> >> > At 0-0.1 Hz as a reward band (which BE does just fine), you have > > some problems caused by the physics of digital signal processing > > (which perhaps the Othmers have repealed):> > 1. An elliptic filter, 1st order, which only produces a delay of > > 150 ms., isn't very accurate. In fact, it passes 200% of the > > signal around the area they want to measure but 100% of all > > activity up as high as nearly 2 Hz. Not exactly training 0-0.1 > > Hz. Raising the filter order to 2 provides a little more specific > > and accurate filter--but the time delay goes up around 1.5 seconds > > and above.> > 2. The Butterworth filter the Othmers usually use, in its fastest > > form (1st order) does provide a fairly accurate reading of the band > > they want to train, but the delay ranges from about 1/2 second to > > about 2.25 seconds.> > In other words, in order to actually SEE the frequency they say > > they are training, they have to set up the filters so they > > literally give the feedback between one and a half and two and a > > half seconds AFTER the even happens in the brain. That's the > > equivalent of trying to train a puppy by giving him a treat about > > 10 minutes after he does something you tell him to do.> >> > I leave it to you to imagine what kind of accuracy and delay are > > provided by asking a filter to measure a band that is 2/100 of a Hz > > (the above are 50/100 Hz wide).> >> > is more versed in BioEra, which is the real software under > > Cygnet, so perhaps he can tell us that I'm completely off base here > > and that there are filters or other devices in BioEra that will > > indeed allow a fast and accurate measuring of signals in this range.> >> > Otherwise, we can all find out how effective this will be--and I'm > > sure it will represent yet another revolutionary improvement in > > results--by buying the Othmers' software, which I understand is > > quite expensive and does essentially this one thing.> >> > Pete> >> > > > My previous provider was Othmer based and she was using one> > channel bipolar training, multiple inhibits, with a reward of 0.0--> > 0.1 QDS will support 0.0 --0.1 and even lower, but Bioexplorer will> > not go down lower than 0.0 -- 0.1> >> > I received a recent EEG info e newsletter and it sounds like the> > Othmers are going lower with the Cygnet--- as low as O.O -- O.05 and> > 0.0 ---0.02. As usual in the field of neurofeedback, there are many> > opinions about whether or not going that low is effective or> > necessary, but it is the direction that EEG Info seems to be going.> >> > .> >> > -- > > Van Deusen> > pvdtlc@...> > http://www.brain-trainer.com> > 305/433-3160> > The Learning Curve, Inc. > > > > > --- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! -- http://www.usfamily.net/mkt-freepromo.html --->

July 11, 2008

If it works it works. I'm not sure anyone has a convincing reason for why it might work.

Mark

Re: Othmer low reward

Maybe some day I will understand the technical part of this, but I do know that my son did very well with the low frequency training. He also did well with Pete's midline squash.Rene:>> Rene,> > I asked Sig Othmer at iSNR last year if he could tell me what type of > filters he used in their low frequency training. He could not but > did suggest I download the designs from the eeg info site. Those > designs are free and apparently still available. You could look to > see what type of filtering they used there.> > In terms of Cygnet I am unsure of what filters they are using. One > of the really powerful things that can happen in BIoEra is that > changes in one object can result in changes in other objects as > well. For instance in Cygnet as you lower the frequency range you > are working the band also narrows. It may be that they also change > filter order too. The Cygnet designs are not available for view or > modification so it is not possible to say exactly they use.> > I suspect that Sig might say is something like this (and I beg > forgiveness for putting words in some one else's mouth)> I have heard others suggest this as well> So here is the made up quote> > If you are down to signals at .5 hz a longer delay may not be as big > a factor. As the wave form itself takes 2 seconds to cycle. > Measuring a 30hz signal with that delay would of course be absurd.> > BioEra does not give a delay graph like BioEra does but here are the > numbers I found when setting the eeg neuroamp as the source device > with a 0 - 0.5 hz filter.> > All filters 3rd order in order to get a decent frequency roll off.> > Butterworth delay of 1.1 seconds> Chebyshev, delay of 1.46 second> Besel Delay of .68 seconds but the frequency roll of > extends to 1.5 hz.> > I just downloaded the BioEx designs.> > The newest one, multiple inhibit one reward uses a second order > elliptic filter. with a 0 to 3 hz range Elliptic filters are not > available in BioEra at this time.> The delay is just over 30 seconds at the lowest end (about .5 hz). > The delay is hard to see on the graph in BE but looks to be a second > or so just past .5 and slowly going up to about 2 seconds by the end > of the band.> > Approximately the same delay seems to occur with a 0 to .5 hz filter > with the largest delay coming from 0 to .05. Again about 30 seconds.> > The frequency distribution is quite broad, the peak is around 3hz > with very shallow roll off.> > This may be more info than you wanted but I figured I'd be thorough> > > > > > > > > > georgemartin@...> www.northstarneurofeedback.com> > > > > Rene,> >> > At 0-0.1 Hz as a reward band (which BE does just fine), you have > > some problems caused by the physics of digital signal processing > > (which perhaps the Othmers have repealed):> > 1. An elliptic filter, 1st order, which only produces a delay of > > 150 ms., isn't very accurate. In fact, it passes 200% of the > > signal around the area they want to measure but 100% of all > > activity up as high as nearly 2 Hz. Not exactly training 0-0.1 > > Hz. Raising the filter order to 2 provides a little more specific > > and accurate filter--but the time delay goes up around 1.5 seconds > > and above.> > 2. The Butterworth filter the Othmers usually use, in its fastest > > form (1st order) does provide a fairly accurate reading of the band > > they want to train, but the delay ranges from about 1/2 second to > > about 2.25 seconds.> > In other words, in order to actually SEE the frequency they say > > they are training, they have to set up the filters so they > > literally give the feedback between one and a half and two and a > > half seconds AFTER the even happens in the brain. That's the > > equivalent of trying to train a puppy by giving him a treat about > > 10 minutes after he does something you tell him to do.> >> > I leave it to you to imagine what kind of accuracy and delay are > > provided by asking a filter to measure a band that is 2/100 of a Hz > > (the above are 50/100 Hz wide).> >> > is more versed in BioEra, which is the real software under > > Cygnet, so perhaps he can tell us that I'm completely off base here > > and that there are filters or other devices in BioEra that will > > indeed allow a fast and accurate measuring of signals in this range.> >> > Otherwise, we can all find out how effective this will be--and I'm > > sure it will represent yet another revolutionary improvement in > > results--by buying the Othmers' software, which I understand is > > quite expensive and does essentially this one thing.> >> > Pete> >> > > > My previous provider was Othmer based and she was using one> > channel bipolar training, multiple inhibits, with a reward of 0.0--> > 0.1 QDS will support 0.0 --0.1 and even lower, but Bioexplorer will> > not go down lower than 0.0 -- 0.1> >> > I received a recent EEG info e newsletter and it sounds like the> > Othmers are going lower with the Cygnet--- as low as O.O -- O.05 and> > 0.0 ---0.02. As usual in the field of neurofeedback, there are many> > opinions about whether or not going that low is effective or> > necessary, but it is the direction that EEG Info seems to be going.> >> > .> >> > -- > > Van Deusen> > pvdtlc@...> > http://www.brain-trainer.com> > 305/433-3160> > The Learning Curve, Inc. > > > > > --- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! -- http://www.usfamily.net/mkt-freepromo.html --->

July 11, 2008

If it works it works. I'm not sure anyone has a convincing reason for why it might work.

Mark

Re: Othmer low reward

Maybe some day I will understand the technical part of this, but I do know that my son did very well with the low frequency training. He also did well with Pete's midline squash.Rene:>> Rene,> > I asked Sig Othmer at iSNR last year if he could tell me what type of > filters he used in their low frequency training. He could not but > did suggest I download the designs from the eeg info site. Those > designs are free and apparently still available. You could look to > see what type of filtering they used there.> > In terms of Cygnet I am unsure of what filters they are using. One > of the really powerful things that can happen in BIoEra is that > changes in one object can result in changes in other objects as > well. For instance in Cygnet as you lower the frequency range you > are working the band also narrows. It may be that they also change > filter order too. The Cygnet designs are not available for view or > modification so it is not possible to say exactly they use.> > I suspect that Sig might say is something like this (and I beg > forgiveness for putting words in some one else's mouth)> I have heard others suggest this as well> So here is the made up quote> > If you are down to signals at .5 hz a longer delay may not be as big > a factor. As the wave form itself takes 2 seconds to cycle. > Measuring a 30hz signal with that delay would of course be absurd.> > BioEra does not give a delay graph like BioEra does but here are the > numbers I found when setting the eeg neuroamp as the source device > with a 0 - 0.5 hz filter.> > All filters 3rd order in order to get a decent frequency roll off.> > Butterworth delay of 1.1 seconds> Chebyshev, delay of 1.46 second> Besel Delay of .68 seconds but the frequency roll of > extends to 1.5 hz.> > I just downloaded the BioEx designs.> > The newest one, multiple inhibit one reward uses a second order > elliptic filter. with a 0 to 3 hz range Elliptic filters are not > available in BioEra at this time.> The delay is just over 30 seconds at the lowest end (about .5 hz). > The delay is hard to see on the graph in BE but looks to be a second > or so just past .5 and slowly going up to about 2 seconds by the end > of the band.> > Approximately the same delay seems to occur with a 0 to .5 hz filter > with the largest delay coming from 0 to .05. Again about 30 seconds.> > The frequency distribution is quite broad, the peak is around 3hz > with very shallow roll off.> > This may be more info than you wanted but I figured I'd be thorough> > > > > > > > > > georgemartin@...> www.northstarneurofeedback.com> > > > > Rene,> >> > At 0-0.1 Hz as a reward band (which BE does just fine), you have > > some problems caused by the physics of digital signal processing > > (which perhaps the Othmers have repealed):> > 1. An elliptic filter, 1st order, which only produces a delay of > > 150 ms., isn't very accurate. In fact, it passes 200% of the > > signal around the area they want to measure but 100% of all > > activity up as high as nearly 2 Hz. Not exactly training 0-0.1 > > Hz. Raising the filter order to 2 provides a little more specific > > and accurate filter--but the time delay goes up around 1.5 seconds > > and above.> > 2. The Butterworth filter the Othmers usually use, in its fastest > > form (1st order) does provide a fairly accurate reading of the band > > they want to train, but the delay ranges from about 1/2 second to > > about 2.25 seconds.> > In other words, in order to actually SEE the frequency they say > > they are training, they have to set up the filters so they > > literally give the feedback between one and a half and two and a > > half seconds AFTER the even happens in the brain. That's the > > equivalent of trying to train a puppy by giving him a treat about > > 10 minutes after he does something you tell him to do.> >> > I leave it to you to imagine what kind of accuracy and delay are > > provided by asking a filter to measure a band that is 2/100 of a Hz > > (the above are 50/100 Hz wide).> >> > is more versed in BioEra, which is the real software under > > Cygnet, so perhaps he can tell us that I'm completely off base here > > and that there are filters or other devices in BioEra that will > > indeed allow a fast and accurate measuring of signals in this range.> >> > Otherwise, we can all find out how effective this will be--and I'm > > sure it will represent yet another revolutionary improvement in > > results--by buying the Othmers' software, which I understand is > > quite expensive and does essentially this one thing.> >> > Pete> >> > > > My previous provider was Othmer based and she was using one> > channel bipolar training, multiple inhibits, with a reward of 0.0--> > 0.1 QDS will support 0.0 --0.1 and even lower, but Bioexplorer will> > not go down lower than 0.0 -- 0.1> >> > I received a recent EEG info e newsletter and it sounds like the> > Othmers are going lower with the Cygnet--- as low as O.O -- O.05 and> > 0.0 ---0.02. As usual in the field of neurofeedback, there are many> > opinions about whether or not going that low is effective or> > necessary, but it is the direction that EEG Info seems to be going.> >> > .> >> > -- > > Van Deusen> > pvdtlc@...> > http://www.brain-trainer.com> > 305/433-3160> > The Learning Curve, Inc. > > > > > --- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! -- http://www.usfamily.net/mkt-freepromo.html --->

July 11, 2008

Actually, when I trained with the Othmers in the mid-90's, there were lots of intrahemispheric bipolar protocols. T3/Fp1 and T4/Fp1 were the precursors of T3/T4. C3/P3, C3/F3, C4/P4 and C4/F4 were all commonly used for specific issues, and they often worked pretty well, with beta rewards on the left and SMR/lobeta rewards on the right.

Pete

I hadn't known of Margaret Ayres protocols so some convergence there. I've been thinking that there needs to be some approach that works with the dominat frequency in the EEg spectrum. Does entropy have some bearing on this?

Mark

..-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com

305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

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RE: Othmer low reward

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